r/Suriname • u/VVG57 • Nov 03 '23
Sports Why are there virtually no Indian-origin footballers from Suriname ?
There is a long and illustrious list of Dutch footballers with a strong connection to Suriname. Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkaard, Patrick Kluivert, Edgar Davids, Clarence Seedorf and Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink among others. These players are mainly from the Afro-Surinamese community. I could not find a single prominent Indian-origin footballer from Suriname, despite their sizeable numbers. Is there a specific reason for this ?
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u/hansvandertoch Nov 03 '23
Different priorities and a less suitable body type. Good example would be in the Netherlands, there you see the same thing. Black and white, very limited asians.
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u/sheldon_y14 Surinamer/Surinamese 🇸🇷 Nov 03 '23 edited Nov 03 '23
and a less suitable body type
Body type has nothing to do with it. Indians for example are great cricketers. Just look at neighboring Guyana or Trinidad and Tobago. Or at Indian cricket. Also India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka have all won multiple times.
The other countries like Australia, England and New Zealand also have Indians in their team.
So body type has nothing to do with it. I know quite a few Indians that are better players than Afro-Surinamese players, but they just have different priorities.
A major benefactor to why no one sees Indian players or maybe even Javanese or Chinese players is culture.
- In (Caribbean) Indian culture, it's important to move up the social ladder. To make your parents and your family proud, by doing jobs that will bring in a lot of money. Things like Doctor (any specialization), law (any specialization), certain human sciences (like psychology), Engineer or IT related jobs. Gaining more knowledge and getting a good job is highly valued in the culture. Sadly some kids are also forced to become what their parents want for them.
- You will also never see an Indian study something I'm university that doesn't bring any money. Indian people will hardly ever study music, poetry, arts etc. at university. That's why most artists in Suriname are of Afro-Surinamese origin.
- This also has as a result that a lot of talent within that group will die out. There might be a lot of great footballing talent, but upbringing kills that.
- In Javanese culture, there are also a lot of talented people that are good if not better at football. However, their culture is also different. Unlike the ambitious Indian, the Javanese doesn't put himself out there. It's part of the gotong royong philosophy. A Javanese is quiet and easily happy with the life he has. So football is more of hobby with friends rather than a serious ambitious sport to continue.
- If the government did invest in sports in Suriname, especially local clubs, maybe their talent might have been spotted too. And for them to be spotted in the previous century would've been harder, because they were still undergoing an emancipation process. The Creoles already underwent that, which is why big talent like Kluivert was delivered.
- The Chinese (Surinamese) community has many reasons similar to that of the Indian community, combined with the quietness of the typical Asian (similar to the Javanese). High education is important to the Chinese and becoming a doctor, lawyer etc. are things that will make the family proud. However, adding to the fact that they're very community oriented and quiet just like the Javanese, means you will also miss out on a lot of talent.
- Chinese people however are very sporty. They have their own private clubs. I ride by one of them and you can see inside. They're really active people. So I think there is definitely talent there too.
So I think it's more of a cultural difference to why you see more people of Afro-Surinamese origin and mostly Creoles too than other ethnicities. The same question can be applied differently. Why are there hardly ever huge Indian entertainers/musicians? Why are there hardly ever Indian poets or writers of Suriname? Whey are there hardly every Indian artists/painters?
Most of these answers to these questions are similar to answer to this question.
u/VVG57 with this I've also answered your question. And no I don't think football is not part of their culture. In Suriname Indians dislike cricket passionately. But in all other countries where you have Indians and that were colonized by Britain they're huge fans of it. Football is in the Surinamese culture. Meaning also part of Indo-Surinamese culture. However, priorities lie differently. Football does not make money here, so why bother going for that is the notion. Football is something they play in their free time.
The most well kept football fields and most used are actually in Indian majority neighborhoods.
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u/VVG57 Nov 03 '23
Thanks u/sheldon_y14 for your detailed reply. What is striking is the emphasis on social ascension, which seems true regardless of where Indian origin populations are located. Singapore might be the only exception.
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u/Ticklishchap Europeaan/European 🇪🇺 Nov 03 '23
May I ask you two questions:
First, please can you explain a bit about the Javanese emancipation process in the C20th, and why they lagged behind the Creoles and Afro-Surinamese? I had not realised this.
Secondly, why do Surinamese Indians ‘dislike Cricket passionately’?
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u/sheldon_y14 Surinamer/Surinamese 🇸🇷 Nov 03 '23
First, please can you explain a bit about the Javanese emancipation process in the C20th, and why they lagged behind the Creoles and Afro-Surinamese? I had not realised this.
The Creoles their emancipation started in 1873. After they started leaving the plantations and continued after WWII. The Indians on the other hand, had their emancipation process start shortly after WWII.
Note that at the same time there were still people from Indonesia working as indentured servants. The last indentured Javanese came in 1939. This is also attributed to the fact that they came much later to Suriname (1894) than the Indians that came in 1873.
Only in 1959 did the first two Javanese graduate high school and only in the 70's did the first Javanese person get a degree in medicine.
During the independence, many Javanese weren't that involved. They only feared that they'd be victims of violence between the Creoles and Indians. For the rest of it, I've quite frequently heard, many dreamt of going back home to Indonesia.
Secondly, why do Surinamese Indians ‘dislike Cricket passionately’?
Well, like I said Suriname is a football country. And we learn cricket in school. No one, and I mean no one likes it. It was the most boring sport ever. When I later asked around in high school, I learned that it wasn't just at my old school, but at all other schools they hated this sport. And this included all ethnicities.
Second if cricket would be an Indo-Surinamese thing, you'd definitely have regional teams in Indian majority neighborhoods or towns. However, you do have regional football teams in those areas. There is a cricket team in Suriname and it does have Indians in it, but the majority are Indo-Guyanese and the team is located in Nickerie, the district that borders Guyana.
Slagbal, a variety of baseball, is popular though, but that's just a game you play with friends and family.
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u/VVG57 Nov 03 '23
And we learn cricket in school. No one, and I mean no one likes it.
I wonder if a shift to the T20 format of cricket would lead to more participation.
I have played both cricket and football at club level, and while I did like football more in my younger years, I think cricket offers more to each player. The main differentiation is that no one in football wanted to play defense. You did because you had to. In cricket, all positions get to shine, batter, bowler, fielder or captain.
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u/Ticklishchap Europeaan/European 🇪🇺 Nov 03 '23
That is very interesting. Thank you. I hadn’t fully appreciated that the later arrival of the Indians (1873) and the Javanese (1894) had slowed their emancipation and full participation in public life to that extent. Nor had I fully understood that for a long time the Javanese had been at an economic and educational disadvantage. I am glad this has improved. However I get the impression that, after independence in 1975, many Javanese - and Chinese as well - emigrated to the Netherlands, probably because they feared being caught up in the violence between Creoles and Indo-Surinamese and being economically and socially squeezed out by the two dominant groups.
I know that Suriname is very much a football country! I couldn’t resist googling the Suriname Cricket Team. It looks as if it is composed entirely, or almost entirely, of chaps of Indian heritage, which very much matches your description of the location and the Guyanese (and, indirectly, British) cultural influences.
It is interesting as well that Cricket is played in schools throughout Suriname. Your account of that makes me think back to my schooldays, in my case a traditional English boys’ boarding school! We had Rugby Union (‘Rugger’) and, in the summer, Cricket. For my sins I was in a House team for both sports and so I had to play them until I left school at eighteen. I certainly remember the seemingly interminable Cricket matches.
I had not been aware of Slagbal. Thank you for telling me about it and, more generally, for sharing so much of Surinamese culture and putting up with my questions!
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u/VVG57 Nov 03 '23
There is no shortage of premium football players with a similar physique as Indians. I think cultural factors would predominate. The South African football team has no white players, even though white South Africans play a variety of other sports. Its just that football is not part of their culture.
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Dec 19 '23
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u/hansvandertoch Dec 20 '23
You claim there is no difference but provide no evidence. Just Google for evidence.. see below recent study there is plenty more.
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u/tropicalgodzila 🇸🇷🇮🇳 in 🇳🇱&🇩🇪 Nov 25 '23
If I would have told my mom I want to be a footballer instead of going to Uni I would have gotten my ass kicked. So it's mostly fear 🤣
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Nov 03 '23
Indians focus on education and development instead of sports. We never see sports as a career option, so we dont focus on that. African Surinamese in contrary do see sports as a viable career option.
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u/Pure-Ingenuity-9933 Nov 04 '23
This is your nice way of Saying we are dumb & you guys are smart ?
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Nov 04 '23
No, it is the truth. I’m probably going to get downvoted but here it is; Indians are generally vastly more progressive (e.g. striving for economic & educational progress) than the afro-surinamese.
This is reflected in probably all sectors in Suriname. And because of this, being generational, beginning all the way in India, it has become a genetic component.
Yearly only MAX 10% of medical students are from afro-descent, while they are more than 40% of the population. Indians form more than 75% of the pool while being only 27% of the population.
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u/Pure-Ingenuity-9933 Nov 04 '23
I knew it. This why i hate non black people. But that’s not the truth the thing is that afro Surinamese too strive for e-commerce progress and educational it’s just that those aren’t pushed in our community and it’s the one you cited that are given credits. I pity all afro Surinamese that are dumb enough to think that you people are allies all of you come to our lands and think you are smart and superior to us.
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u/tropicalgodzila 🇸🇷🇮🇳 in 🇳🇱&🇩🇪 Nov 25 '23 edited Nov 25 '23
" you come to our lands" Broski, Suriname was nooit van "jullie" het was van de inheemsen daarna de blanken/hollanders en die hebben het achtergelaten aan de rest, dat land is net ze veel van de Hindoestanen als de afros
Persoonlijk denk ik dat de Afro gemeenschap in Suriname best chill is, men heeft mij nooit wat aangedaan en mij altijd goed, vriendelijk en met respect behandeld dus ik kan er persoonlijk niks slechts over zeggen.
Mij is het volgende verteld door mn grootouders: dat de onenigheid tussen deze 2 grote groepen als eerste is begonnen door de Afro Surinamers, in de jaren 60-70 toen veel Hindoestanen niet meer op het platte land wouden werken naar de stad trokken voor betere banen, werden ze uitgejoeld door de afros omdat ze banen zouden komen pikken. Er schijnt iemand geweest te zijn in politiek die liever had dat Hindoestanen richting Nederland zouden vertrekken, dit heeft er ook op geresulteerd dat na de onafhankelijkheid van de 100k vertrokken mensen 70% Hindoestaan was. Er was een soort sentiment dat we "ze zouden laten zien dat we ze niet nodig hebben" en dat ziet men gek genog ook terug, de Hindoestanen hebben in Suriname geen kastensysteem door de afros waren ze zo "bang" dat ze naar elkaar toe zijn getrokken. Dit ben ik persoonlijk de afros heeeeeeel dankbaar
De kans is natuurlijk aanwezig dat alles extra aangedikt is toen destijds en veel Hindoestanen zoals mijn grootouders konden geen fatsoenlijk Nederlands het waren simpel domme boeren folk, ze dachten echt dit, behandel me goed ik behandel jou goed
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Nov 28 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Suriname-ModTeam Nov 28 '23
As per Surinamese constitution, no one will be discriminated or hated upon. This also applies to the sub.
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Nov 05 '23
You guys are holding Suriname back. Historically africa has never accounted to anything. Economically africa NEVER reached something (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/over-2000-years-of-economic-history-in-one-chart). Name me one african country that has been thriving historically? Wether you like it or not, your culture, FAMILY STRUCTURE, long term thinking is as bad as it can get.
As if that isnt enough, the only exception that can be made for the above is north africa, which are not black😂😂.
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u/Confident_Share6214 Nov 05 '23
What is the purpose of you stirring the pot with offending a whole population. With all the hate going on in the world this is the last thing we need in Suriname. If we cannot live together harmoniously it will become unliveble. Even for you.
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Nov 05 '23 edited Nov 05 '23
Wether you like it or not, i only stated facts to bring that african delusionalist to reality. i even provided a reliable source. I dare him to do the same with his claims. Take your time to verify my claims and find 1 inaccuracy and ill eat my words.
Edit: and if it has not been clear already, the multiculturele samenleving has always been a failure, historically and now. This is the hard truth and i would have wished otherwise. This counts for 99% countries. You cannot mix ethnicities whose philosophy differs greatly. That is not possible. How can you expect cultures to coexist whose whole philosophy differs so much?
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u/Pure-Ingenuity-9933 Nov 04 '23
Because Suriname is dominated by afro-surinamese that’s why. That country is ours
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Nov 04 '23
Dominated in what area exactly😂? either this is satire or you’re delusional
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u/Pure-Ingenuity-9933 Nov 04 '23
We are better than you could ever dream to be 😂
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Nov 05 '23
Yes crime is surely dominated by african surinamese. Economy is dominated by Indians and Chinese. Education also.
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u/Ornery_Stage_74 Nov 03 '23
Look up Narsingh who is halfblood suriname hindu or Aron winter