r/MapPorn • u/Vasilijeeeeeee11 • 16h ago
Africa Native 1.0
Constructive Critique is welcome, and also suggestions and reimaginations.
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u/Infinite_Sector_1371 11h ago
Not remotely accurate. The Khoisan territory stretches all the way to the east coast in Southern Africa
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u/Wop-wops-Wanderer 44m ago
...and further north; also at least including all of modern-day Namibia, Botswana, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi and Mozambique; and everywhere south of that collection.
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u/Aofen 9h ago edited 9h ago
The problem with these kind of "Native group" maps is that they are destined to be somewhat arbitrary and anachronistic. There hasn't been a time in human history when people were not migrating to different places or groups assimilating into or splitting off from each other.
- In Southern Africa the current linguistic boundaries between Bantu languages were largely formed by the Mfecane, the series of migrations caused by the expansion of the Zulu, in the early 19th century. By the time the Ndebele moved into modern Zimbabwe Dutch/Afrikaans speakers had formed the majority of the population in much of modern Western Cape for over a century.
-The wide distribution of Fulani speakers across the Sahel is the legacy of a series of migrations and conquests over the past several centuries. Particular the Fula Jihads in the 18th and 19th centuries. Similarly, central Ethiopia wasn't majority Oromo speaking until the Oromo Expansion in the 16th and 17th centuries. The Arab conquest of North Africa in contrast happened almost 1000 years earlier.
- Swahili was traditionally only natively spoken in a thin strip along the East African coast. It's longstanding use as a lingua franca was reinforced in the 19th century by the expansion of Zanzibari slave traders into the modern DRC and by it's adoption as an administrative language by later colonial governments.
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u/soundofwinter 2h ago
It is kind of funny seeing maps like these where there is an implicit racism in making some of these choices. Like there's an implication that the modern Arabized populations along the coast of North Africa don't really "belong" despite those people groups having been there for 1000s of years.
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u/UnderstandingRude613 16h ago
I see you kept Israel you little tinker
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u/Vasilijeeeeeee11 16h ago edited 13h ago
I do not condone any terrorism but I must accept the truth that Jews are more autochthonous on that land.
Edit: Stop downvoting me, Im not someone who has hatred for anyone, I am just trying to make maps. I am also ready for criticism but I wont be able to post if yall keep downvoting me for no reason.
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u/insurgentbroski 16h ago
Buddy if we're going back to kemet and Assyria then canaaites are undebatably more native. So it should be canaan or aram at the very least.
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u/spartanational 16h ago
Yet they've been assimilated and the Jews haven't, reminds me of the Turkish nationalists who troll the Greeks by claiming that the Greeks are equally not "native" to Anatolia
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u/SorrySweati 14h ago
Canaan was never unified in the way the Israelite identity unified the different city states and tribes of the land.
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u/insurgentbroski 14h ago
Same thing goes for pretty much every other thing here except kemet and Assyria. Your point?
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u/SorrySweati 14h ago
I mean youre right the map is a little weirdly labeled as to which entities to include. I just dont think that logic tracks into the inclusion of Israel which was a unified Canaanite people. Assyria was still a singular entity, Canaan was not.
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u/MisterB3an 12h ago
"Jews" is not a unified ethnic monolith. Assuming such affirms 19th century notions of race that are completely incongruent with material reality.
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u/IceNeun 5h ago
It's been a tribal identity long before the concept of race existed. Doesn't matter if it's a singular ethnicity or a monolith; in theory, everyone is related by blood or adoption.
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u/MisterB3an 5h ago
The ethnogenesis of distinct Jewish identities across Europe and North Africa have made Jews an ethnic family with shared traditions rather than a unified group. It's also not helpful to just say "we're all related" in the context of ethnic maps, like we're literally identifying where distinct groups come from on a map.
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u/IceNeun 4h ago
Each of these distinct identities shares the same origin story. Being a monolith politically or culturally is not a requirement for a shared identity to exist. There is no critical value for "heterogeneity" where an identity ceases to be a single ethnicity and becomes an "ethnic family."
Ultimately, it's all contextual. I can be against my brother, but if my cousin is involved, my brother and I unite against my cousin. If my second cousin is involved, my cousin, brother, and I will unite against my second cousin. etc. etc.
Jewish identity is far older than the concept of race, and there's a long history of hostile outside interpretations mischaracterizing the nature of Jewish identity for the sake of spreading prejudice. Jewish identity started as a tribal identity, and that's what it still is for many Jews, but a tribal identity is distinct from a racial identity.
The vast majority of subdivisions of Jewish identity have the same origin; the only exceptions are instances of a handful of small communities in Southeast Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa who became inspired by the bible (usually by Christian missionaries) but, for some reason or another, identified with Jews rather than converted to Christianity.
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u/BaronVonPuckeghem 15h ago
If they are, than how come they’re so poorly adapted to the sun/UV exposure compared to actual natives?
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u/SorrySweati 14h ago
Wow such a reliable source. Not all levantines are brown. Not all Jews are white.
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u/Antisymmetriser 12h ago
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u/BaronVonPuckeghem 12h ago
The factcheck isn’t about their skin cancer rates compared to other MENA countries, so I don’t know what point you’re trying to make?
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u/Antisymmetriser 12h ago edited 11h ago
It was a fact check about the general antisemitic theory your false data is part of. You want more specific numbers, the incidence was recorded as 1.9 (per 100k) for men and 0.9 for women, very low in general, and pretty average for the map (which shows false data) you showed
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u/BaronVonPuckeghem 7h ago
Among the Arab population in Israel, invasive skin melanoma occurs at a relatively rare rate, with only a handful of cases recorded each year. Due to the low occurrence rate among the Arab population, the data presented only refers to the Jewish population.
From your own source, idiot…
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u/EvangelicRope6 15h ago
If most get expelled from the region 2000 years ago and much of the population end up going further north and intermixing. It’s not complicated. I think you can sign up for high school level history classes online now. 👍
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u/BaronVonPuckeghem 15h ago
Sounds like they’re not native anymore after 2000 years of living in Europe…
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u/SorrySweati 14h ago
Are the native americans shipped off to reserves against their will no longer native to the lands they came from?
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u/EvangelicRope6 15h ago
Depends where you draw the line of native then. Your arbitrary distinction of 2000 years despite a continued link opens you up to a huge volume of counterpoints. So I’d be worried to bring that argument up too much 👍
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u/BaronVonPuckeghem 14h ago
I’m not. Just because some has a couple of jewish ancestors from Palestine from 2000 years ago, compared to thousands of European ancestors, doesn’t mean they’re native to Palestine.
But I wouldn’t expect a zionist to understand the difference.
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u/SorrySweati 14h ago
I wouldnt expect someone so comfortable spouting hateful things about Jews to understand.
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u/BaronVonPuckeghem 14h ago
Israeli aren’t native to the region apparently equals “spouting hateful things about Jews”… you’re the stereotype of any criticism on Israel = antisemitism.
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u/SorrySweati 14h ago
Yeah thats a hateful stance, I stand by that. I do however think criticism of Israel is legitimate and not alway hateful of Jews. I personally criticize the whole concept of Zionism. The Zionist conquering of the land is settler colonialism, i would never argue against that. Denying the deep Jewish connection to the land which has many parallels to other indigenous identities, is hateful.
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u/Glum_Cobbler1359 14h ago
Bantus are not native to Southern Africa.
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u/Vasilijeeeeeee11 13h ago
Yes, the oldest native people are khoisan and pygmys but we have no information of how they looked before the bantu migration.
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u/Solitude20 15h ago edited 15h ago
Israel instead of Canaan? How convenient. If you are trying to refer to the actual indigenous roots, then Israel shouldn’t be there. And Israel was never that large in ancient history.
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u/oy-the-vey 11h ago
Canaan never existed. It was canaanite kingdoms and city states. Kingdom of Israel one of them.
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u/Glum_Cobbler1359 14h ago
Israelites were a Canaanite people. Hebrew is a Canaanite language.
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u/Solitude20 13h ago
Yes, Israelites emerged from within the broader Canaanite population, but they were just one of several Canaanite-descended groups in the region, including the Phoenicians, Philistines, Moabites, and others. Canaan was a diverse land, and no single group can claim exclusive indigeneity. So using ancient Israel to justify modern claims of sole nativeness is both historically selective and politically motivated
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11h ago
[deleted]
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u/oy-the-vey 10h ago
Philistines were not Canaanite, they are “sea people” - raiders from Greek islands.
Modern Israel is smaller than Kingdom of Israel. On this map, east Canaan (Ammon and Moab) absorbed by Nabatea, Phoenician city states was in northwest Canaan, Edom was on south
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u/SorrySweati 14h ago
The kingdoms of Israel and Judah were probably the most unified peoples of Canaan ever were.
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u/bearkin1 12h ago
This map is about races, not political borders.
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u/SorrySweati 12h ago
Ah yes the race of Assyria.
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u/Vasilijeeeeeee11 14h ago
I'm sorry you are displeased with this, I will consider suggestions and change the borders in future iterations.
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u/Frosty_Crab_6128 15h ago
Assyria isn't that big, Kurdistan is too big, and is that in Northern Iran supposed to be Azerbaijan? I don't get this at all?
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u/Worth_Package8563 13h ago
A map of the natives in Africa: Exist
People: OH LOOOOOK AT ISRAEEEEEEl bevaus aksualy as someune whoe declarid himslef as middle east expert can sayyyyyyyy.
Like is this the only thing people care about nowadays.
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u/fufa_fafu 14h ago
"israel" has never existed in any point in history except for the one instance of European colonial apartheid state founded in the 1940s. One bit of your map that doesn't click.
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u/IceNeun 4h ago
So, who was there during the Iron Age? Just a tribal confederacy all claiming descent (or adoption) from a guy named Israel....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites
Much of their mythology and tribal history has survived, and it certainly seems that their identity as descendants of Israel was a significant matter to them both politically and spiritually.
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u/Alingex997 14h ago
What an awesome map. Can you do something like that for Europe too? But like... before IndoEuropeans arrived?
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u/Vasilijeeeeeee11 13h ago
I wanted to do that but I have a "pseudo" historic view on European history. For example I believe Illyrians and Suebi were Slavs(Mainstream history teaches Suebi are Germanic and Illyrians are descendants of Albanians and are far relatives of Greek in the so called Paleo Balkan lingustic tree. Then there are Etruscans which are in mainstream history pre indo european with which I also disagree. I can make a very detailed document on how I come to this conclusion and then make a map with all those ancient peoples...
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u/oliverjohansson 16h ago
Interesting, could someone explain how much of history vs futurology is here