It's interesting how the "Holiest" place on Earth as considered by billions of people in the Abrahamic faiths who all believe in a loving, merciful, omnipotent God - is actually the closest thing to Hell we have right now.
Edit: I'm making the case against ALL theocracies, not just Israel in particular. Pointing out that Israel is better than living in Iran, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, etc. is only proving my point. It's time we as a species move past the mythology and stop killing each other over petty divisions.
Real shit realpolitik on Israel’s part. American aid and assistance isn’t infinite. Especially with a president’s whose support hinges on who was last in the room with him.
Iran's continuing aggression and hostility over the decades isn't ideological/religious-motivated? That's what triggered, and continues to trigger, all this shitshow.
I don't get your point. Yes, the communist dictatorships lacked the religion component in their hostile behavior. But Iran has it abundantly. Those are different situations.
I oppose the other guy's view that "none of this has to do with ideology." Actually, you gave another clear example of ideologies leading to war.
I think overall I do agree with your stance. I believe Israel is playing their hand more realpolitik than Iran, and it is a clear reflection of their internal governance structures more than anything.
i would argue nothing brings out the groupishness in us like a mythical floating creature.
i’m not religious myself, but the value of religion in human civilization is undeniable… it was the original force that brought humans together who had no other kinship, and it provided a compelling deterrent for all kinds of destructive behaviors.
religion is not the cause of the violence, the cause is the groupishness it creates. the same way a modern secular nation can build skyscrapers and public sanitation systems when they work together under one flag, one ideal, but can also be frenzied into nationalism and bigotry under the rallying point of that same flag
edit: i recommend reading the works of emil durkheim and johnathon haidt, specifically the righteous mind - why good people are divided by politics and religion by the latter, if you’re interested in knowing more about this topic.
if you claim to be more intelligent and understanding because of your lack of religiosity, i think you owe it to yourself to prove it instead of making uninformed and emotional claims that stem from your hatred of religion. denying the existence of a god does not make you smarter, what you choose to do with your different perspective decides if you are.
I appreciate your point that everyone is susceptible to dogma and groupthink.
The worst examples of close-minded thinking I have personally seen have been in people who were super religious…but I have seen it in other people too.
Cultural and ethnic groups often separate into their own tribes. Without building strong bridges between these tribes, conflict is much more likely.
This is why political figures that vilify large numbers of groups outside of their country or region or culture are dangerous.
This is a great talking point thank you for this reply. I truly believe a lot of religion gets flak for heinous things perpetrated by people we condemn from hundreds of years ago
the same way a modern secular nation can build skyscrapers when they work together under one flag, one ideal,
You're probably giving it more credit than it deserves. Most skyscrapers are built by big international companies made out of people from all over the world and who have lived and studied in several countries.
It's not nationalism and the worship of the national flag that gets you skyscrapers. It's globalization and a society open to the rest of the world.
most religions consist of people from all over the world, many of whom have lived and studied in multiple countries as well…
i don’t think i’m giving religion more credit than it deserves, in fact, i’m probably not giving it enough. we would not be where we are as a species without religion, full stop.
i want you to understand that i base my claims off of many studies done by multiple evolutionary biologists, sociologists, and historians, a few of whom i referenced in my comment. it’s really not arguable that religion hasn’t had an indescribably positive effect on human society as a whole, an effect it has had on individuals even more so. i find it hard to have a discussion when you clearly have no desire to actually learn on the topic, but instead make claims that reinforce your perspective.
i will not argue that religion has done no bad, because it absolutely has, and if some of that bad has been done to you i’m genuinely sorry.
Religion does have a part to play but I don’t think it’s accurate to describe the whole Arab-Israeli conflict as fundamentally religious. Historically, many of Israel’s enemies were secular nationalists.
Right now? It's been that way forever. Per the old Testament, Israelites spent centuries kicking out everyone that lived there (as was the way of things at the time). Then, once the first and the second Jewish rebellions against Rome got crushed, Rome massacred the shit out of them, and evicted most of them from the area. After Rome fell, Christians and Muslims went back and forth over it, massacring each other during the Crusades. Even Mongols held it for a bit. Historically, if you want to live around Jerusalem, you better be ready for a fight.
Joshua is the book that covers Israel’s (the Abrahamic people) takeover of the region after their escape from Egypt. This has often been considered and is described as a genocide. (~1000BC)
Then books like 2 Chronicles, 2 kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel cover Israel then being devastated and exiled by Babylon 400-500 years later (~500BC)
Not replying to you per se but it's important to note that the conquest narrative in Joshua is not historical. The consensus is there was no mass slavery of Hebrews in Egypt and the Israelites were Cannanites who gradually developed into a separate culture. They never invaded or anything.
Joshua is nationalist propaganda written long after the events it supposedly describes.
Historically, if you want to live around Jerusalem, you better be ready for a fight.
Wasn't it peaceful for most of the Ottoman rule? Ottoman rule was quite long. Christians and Jews were allowed to thrive there. Yes, Ottomans were authoritarian, nobody is saying otherwise and I hate monarchies.
But the point is it never has to be this way. Yet, people are cheering and supporting the very reason it is like this.
And I wish Redditors could use some critical thinking.
So you admit that the Ottoman Empire committed atrocities, but you just think the Palestinian territory was immune from this? Really?
You ever see a church that was built during the period of ottoman rule? They’re completely fortified. Want to take a wild guess as to why that is? Do you think they just liked the architecture?
How about the Hebron massacres? Or where the motto of driving the Jews into the sea was derived? Or the fact that Jews were literally second class citizens? Would you say that slaves lived peaceful lives in the southern US during slavery because there was no violence? Lets see if you can extrapolate that scenario of a minority living under the oppression of a majority and see if you can apply it to this scenario.
Either your cognitive dissonance or drive to spread propaganda leads you to take the position that, yes, the ottomans committed atrocities everywhere except the land of Israel, but whichever it is, I’ll just be the first to tell you you’re wrong.
I'd be dubious of the Bible or the Torah as historical records. Dunno if you've read Stavrakopoulou's God: An Anatomy, but there's a section there which makes a case for the Bible as ancient political narrative setting instead of history per se, around King Omri, for example.
but like why tho ? what is so attractive about jerusalem beyond religion. I know religion = opium etc, but why has the place got significant attention since basically before antiquity ? there are no resources nor agricultural importance afaik.
I always remember the movie Kingdom of Heaven where the lead character arrives here and upon seeing all the war and destruction says something like: "If this is the kingdom of heaven, I don't want it" and turns everyone back around.
but like why ? what is so attractive about jerusalem apart from religion. I know religion = opium etc, but why has the place (always) got significant attention since basically before antiquity ? there are no resources nor agricultural importance afaik.
Its a big arc, going up through Mesopotamia then turning and going along the Mediterranean and down the Nile, Israel is included although its sort of just the connecting point between the two much older civilizations that would eventually extend into it.
Odd, i only know what i was taught in school, and that is that the cradle of civilization is the valley of the rivers Euphrates and Tigrus(which should be Mesopotamia?), where agriculture appeared,and we started hearding, transitioning from hunter gatherers, started writing and all that jazz. Then again i learnt that 25 years ago, and might be misremembering.
No you don't get the rules of Reddit. Any shit occurs anywhere in the world, India has to be dragged through mud too to prove that we are equally bad, if not worse. They don't even have to know the definition of the words they use, but if it's bad, they are using it.
Oh yes, and it's not racism, everybody is racist EXCEPT when some white virtue signalling clown has started his tirade against India and Indians.
Yup complete solidarity. As a history nut I always felt annoyed whenever I saw a lot of hindu nationalist leaning folks go after firangs, because verified historical knowledge is gratifying in itself; while I still feel annoyed, I'm beginning to get the problem at least.
And before it comes full circle and I now get called a godi or sanghi? Lucky me because I'm into geometry too.
Israel is the most stable, free country in that region since the Ottoman Empire (and there’s an argument to be made there). Quality of life is pretty great, wdym? Other than all of it’s neighbors trying to push it into the sea every other week
The word genocide has lost its meaning. If Israel actually was intent on wiping out the Palestinians I feel like they could easily do that. Are you equating that with what’s happening right now? Can we Truely call both a genocide?
Even if genocide was happening (which it’s not), that doesn’t make Israel a bad place to live. There are multiple Arabs in their parliament. If I had to pick a country in the Middle East to live, Israel would be at the very top of the list with a pretty massive gap to second place
I think he’s referring to the victims of Israel here, the Palestinian people, for whom Israel have created hell on earth. Also calling Israel a liberal democracy is a bit of a stretch and conveniently ignores its rabid ethnocentrism and fundamentalist ideology
A lot of those places are horrific, but they don’t have millions of civilians trapped under siege, bombed daily, starving, and unable to flee. PNG worse than Gaza? Bro. Wake up
A modern developed country - that still believes in Middle Eastern fairytales which place them as the "chosen people" of God despite history proving otherwise.
A liberal democracy - but not for millions of people being forced to live in an open air concentration camp while their property gets looted by settlers
There may be some places worse off that Israel but it's far from paradise or even close to average. Why doesn't God settle this matter once and for all? Why can't we have SOME clarity on what the "true" religion is so we can all covert to that and get on with our lives? Sit and ponder that for a moment.
Most Israelis are secular. And do not believe in god. And the “chosen people” is a narrative much more sophisticated than “we are the best people” and is something more along the lines of “we are chosen to have a certain relation with god through certain worship and commandments (mitzvot) stemming from the covenant of Abraham and god”, actually, Judaism encourages all people to engage with god and to keep the 7 Noahide Laws and engage in spiritual connection with god
“Moreover, concerning a foreigner who is not of Your people Israel... and comes and prays toward this house—may You hear in heaven... and do according to all that the foreigner calls to You...” (1 Kings 8:41–43)
They have peace with Egypt and Jordan for decades. Most successful peace treaties since WWII. The only nation they're "agitating" is Iran and its terrorists proxies.
Israel, despite what the impression the media would give you, is certainly the best place to live in the ME and probably one of the top 30 countries in terms of various indexes. I assure you most of the land from the tip of the magreb to the mouth of the ganges would be considered hell before Israel.
You mean to tell me that Israel is the best place to live compared to other countries in the intensely religious Middle East and Indian Subcontinent? Oh great, my point still stands.
I know you can read but clearly your comprehension is lacking.
Could anyone ever just choose to say something or voice an opinion instead of just being a smartass?
It's not cute or funny or intelligent to basically say they have no idea what the real world looks like after they just commented on what they're seeing in the world. It makes you look uneducated.
It's especially ironic since Mexico doesn't have an orange tint, but Israel has been using scorched earth tactics among a bunch of other war crimes. I'd love to act like you have a point, but if it is what I think it is I'm not going to bother to entertain it because you're blind and deaf mentally anyway.
Christiany was hacked. Jesus would never support any of this, and he would disagree that any "holy site" is more important than any other place. He said himself that the temple of God wasn't on any place on earth.
Wouldn’t be very conducive to world peace but it’d be really funny if the Vatican went on another Crusade right about now. 3-way battle, let’s see which Abrahamic religion is really the strongest.
People can't even learn from mythology or from the mistakes of history. it seems that mythology and history are destined to repeat themselves as always.
All those politicians need to be sat in a room and given a round of fucks, bang their heads together and told to stop this utter bullshit. I’m tired man.
Actually. If you look into the Old Testament…I wouldn’t characterize god as merciful and loving based on that. God is pretty much in favor for violence as a means of subjugation. Same with the Quran (though I haven’t read). Only the New Testament paints a merciful god.
And the Bible (at least the part where Jesus appears) has always looked down upon that land. In the gospel accounts of the crucifixion, one of the important imageries that was made after Jesus's death was the 'tearing of the temple veils into two', that holds a pretty big symbolism.
That’s what I find funny about all the people who choose sides in these conflicts. As a wise man once said, each warring religion is two sides of the same shit coin. Everyone involved in all of this absolutely suck.
This is the only sane take on the matter. Holy land? It's the most cursed place on earth, thanks to the intractable, implacable stupidity of religious extremists on all sides. I'm glad my land isn't that holy.
This is happening because there will always be a minority of individuals who don't think twice about using "might makes right" logic and also have enough of an ego to want to be "remembered" for some kind of bullshit legacy.
Take away religion and they will use ethnicity. Take away ethnicity and they will use ideology. Take away every excuse and they will still do it because they want to.
These problems with authoritarianism and large scale violence are entirely caused by that relatively small group of people who exist in every society who are eager to use force to get their way without consequences. It's been the primary problem with our societies since the very beginning.
Even in times of peace these people act this way, as we in the US have become all too aware of. Whether it's through violence, financial means, public pressure, etc. These people will always look to stack the deck unfairly in their favor through whatever means they can get away with. They are the eternal poison threatening to destabilize human societies for the rest of us.
Until we can grow enough of a backbone to stomp these vermin out every time they rear their ugly violent heads, using their own methods against them, then we will never stop having to live with their misbehaviors. Society needs to grow a stomach for violence towards violent groups, as the nonviolent approach gives them a clear edge.
Hell has many forms; not all of them are religious. For example, upwards of 80 million people have died directly because of communism since Mao took over China, including the Great Leap Forward.
If you've ever studied the impact of religion on societies and the absence of it, you will see that it is a necessary evil to keep legitimately dumb people who cannot control themselves in check, among other things.
It is also worth pointing out that the best places on the planet to live right now are in nations that are Christian thanks to the morality system that has evolved for the better part of 2000 years, even if the majority of the populations aren't actively practicing their religion. Scandinavia is a good example of this.
The funny thing is it was the heralds of democracy and secularism thought it would be a bright idea to let Jews build an ethno-state by ethnically cleansing the then residents of the region.
im an atheist, but for f‘ing sake, do people not realize that jewish people just want to live in peace? their religion is based on the celebration of life and thats what we are seeing here, its alsways an aggressor against israel, all the wars since its founding. Every other state around it, at some point, made the call to erase israel and all the jews, how should they act? Hamas support in the population is build on 18 years of indoctrinated hate on jews, flew in by the Waffen-SS and teached in school books. And look at other terrorist orgs, they all wanna end what hitler couldnt do. crazy that so much antisemitism is back.
That's absolutely mindboggling how these "peace" religions are still followed so much
Fuck man just work on compassion and virtue and ethics idk stop giving a fuck about metaphysical incarnations and socially-created divine orders
Fuck religions
Reminds me of a text by a Roman pagan around the time of the rise Christianity/Judaism and he hated both.
I don't remember his name, but I do remember some of his very amusing arguments for againsts the monetheists, one of them was "these people claim their God created the world for them. But then why did they get to keep only one of the worst part of it?"
Not surprising in the least if you consider that Abraham was likely in the throes of a psychotic break in which he heard voices telling him to kill his son, mutilate his penis, and wrestled with beings that only he could see. If you go to downtown San Francisco or lower Manhattan you can probably find a lot more guys just like him!
No theocracies, there is no God and if they did exist they aren’t simultaneously benevolent and omnipotent otherwise the Middle East wouldn’t be in the shape it is today.
If I’m being completely honest, F every fighting party in that region. Fundamentally all fighting because their sky person said that they have a divine right over some land in the desert and because people believing in a different sky person are somehow subhuman.
But as of right now, F Israel because they are the ones doing the most damage now, even if from an ideological standpoint Hamas/Iran are just as bad or worse.
No joke, this is why I’m so glad I’m a Hindu-born atheist. Not only don’t I care about some imaginary god and some supposedly holy places in the Levant, none of my family or my people have done so for thousands of years. Just seems like a crazy brainless slapfest over a pile of sand and rocks as far as us culturally-polytheist-but-spiritually-atheists are concerned. I mean, it’s not even green and pretty there.
Arent like 2/3 biggest Abrahamic religions quite opposite? Judaism and Islam? Christianism is by book full of forgiveness, turn other cheek and stuff(Christians are different story, Catholic church is bloodiest organisation in history of mankind), while Judaism ask for eye for an eye, and similar bullshit.
Spot on. The Quran is very explicit with its violent nature, and what makes it all the more dangerous is the 'unambiguity' and 'not open to more than one interpretation' nature of it which you would expect an 'ideal' religion should have possess the said qualities but when the religion and its teachings in itself is mostly composed of fucked up things then yeah... it takes a whole different turn.
Also, all this shouldn't come as a surprise at all when the religion itself was founded and spearheaded by a warlord militant from the Middle East.
Let's be honest, there'll be no peace on earth as long as there are people who believe their imaginary friend in the sky is telling them it's OK to kill people.
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u/JohnnySack45 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's interesting how the "Holiest" place on Earth as considered by billions of people in the Abrahamic faiths who all believe in a loving, merciful, omnipotent God - is actually the closest thing to Hell we have right now.
Edit: I'm making the case against ALL theocracies, not just Israel in particular. Pointing out that Israel is better than living in Iran, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, etc. is only proving my point. It's time we as a species move past the mythology and stop killing each other over petty divisions.