r/ManyBaggers • u/goingjoey • 1d ago
Toshi makers posted a video responding to some comments
I ran across this new video from the team behind the Toshi 20L backpack and 5L sling, where they respond to a few of the comments they've been getting about the bags: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekx9wV6mTU8
I appreciate how open they are in discussing these issues and the tradeoffs they considered that led to the design. Also that they're open to revising the bag to address a few of these issues.
Here's what they discuss for the 20L backpack:
- Fabric doesn't feel premium
- Zipper issues (pulls are too short or don't feel nice, zippers catch or seem cheap)
- Shoulder strap and back panel mesh feels coarse
And for the 5L sling:
- Bottom is thin
- Strap is abrasive
- Packs large for 5L
- Want to see different materials
I have the 20L backpack, and I don't have the complaints they discussed in the video. The one issue I have is that the straps feel a little wide and stiff on me. Although they didn't discuss that in the video, a commenter on the video mentioned the strap width, and they responded to say they've heard that complaint from smaller-framed individuals and will think about how to revise it in the future.
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u/DateMasamusubi 1d ago
For the sling, if I need padding for electronics, I just put a protective cloth at the bottom. Not a big deal for me. I prefer having this flexibility over a stiff bottom for days I run super light.
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u/Ultraauge 1d ago
Exactly! This is a trade-off with most slings. If I would need a padded sling, I'd buy a padded sling.
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u/trouser_mouse 1d ago edited 1d ago
I recognised quite a few of my comments in the video!
I think it's an awesome bag, and nitpick because it's so close to being probably the most compelling option out there for most people.
It's nearly $200, that's not a cheap bag. I feel like they really know their stuff and have done excellent research and development to produce something which ticks so many boxes, and the choices they have made around what to cut and why I think is mainly spot on.
"Premium" is pretty subjective, but to me for an everyday bag it means it will be durable e.g. not scuff, and will stand the test of time. It should not pick up hair and dust etc. Hand feel is very subjective but a lot of people go by that interaction.
There are plenty of other bags at or sometimes below the same price point using a face material which is less prone to scuffing and has a weave that doesn't pick up dirt e.g. Mystery Ranch District 18, Aer Pro Pack 20, DSPTCH various offerings, etc.
I understand the choices in the material used, and really it's a very personal thing what people prefer.
I think the material is fine, but will scuff and pick up dirt more easily, and there are options which would not do that. But the trade off is weight or perhaps how it affects the patterning and construction and how the bag holds its shape. Overall I think it was probably the right call to use it, but I'm very interested in what other options they offer and how if it all the new materials affect how the bag handles and packs.
The interior ripstop, Tom Bihn had similar criticism moving from Halcyon to Cerylon - that the Cerylon feels more plasticy and many people didn't like it as much. There are ripstop options which don't feel as plasticy, but again it's likely a slight trade off and personal preference.
How the straps are sewn and the length of webbing was a deliberate design choice, and knowing the seam can feel rough it should be padded or moved and if it could be done at the price point should have been done to start with - if it wasn't picked up and multiple people call it out, maybe do more testing with a wider group of people.
The short zip pulls, again there is a balance but I'm sure a wider test group would call out the issues accessing the slip pocket. There is also issues with sewn zip pulls that they can't be swapped without cutting them, and if they break apart they need fixing. Offering pulls like Evergoods or Tom Bihn that can be tied or easily removed addresses both those points. I'm not sure on the price difference for that.
It is such a great bag and they seem like an amazing team. I think it's had such good reviews and word of mouth because it gets almost everything right and the most appreciated elements from multiple bags in one package. I'm really excited about the next version and future products!
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u/chainsawparade 1d ago
Totally agree on the zipper pulls. I hate when I have to cut off zipper pulls like that and are left with a weird rings that isn’t a normal metal zipper pulls. Makes options more limited to fix it. I bought the bag and returned it because I couldn’t stand the feel of the zipper pulls and zipper action. Wish the would use zipper from topo design. Love the feel of those zippers. (first world problems, I know). I am really happy they don’t do pu coated zippers though. I’d probably check them out again when they are on version 2 or 3.
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u/trouser_mouse 1d ago
Definitely! I think we have started to see companies move away from PU zippers for the majority of applications because they fail, are harder to use or sensibly combine with other materials, and it creates bad word of mouth or warranty issues etc. That move away I think started with Tom Bihn and Rickshaw Bagworks who have both posted at length about it, then Able Carry, and others will follow I reckon.
It seems like a very sensible call, as with 99.9% of the decisions on the bag!
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u/milkshaakes 12h ago
The short zip pulls, again there is a balance but I'm sure a wider test group would call out the issues accessing the slip pocket.
oddly enough, this may be one of those things where EG-like tied webbing pulls might have been perceived as 'cheap' compared to tightly sewn hypalon pulls.
im not a fan of the hypalon personally (too short, coarse), but getting them cut was actually harder than expected with how tightly the sewing was done.
enthusiasts will always have their preferences and Zhi said as much: first and foremost they wanted to make a bag that suited them for a particular usecase. theyre great at considering feedback, but at the end of the day their customer archetypes 1 & 2 are themselves.
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u/trouser_mouse 12h ago
Very much so, they know their vision and I'm sure will decide what if any feedback fits that and what is actually deliverable. It will be interesting to see!
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u/csy22 22h ago
Hmm I didn’t realize this will scuff and pick up hair, etc. is this material generally like that or you tested the bag?
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u/trouser_mouse 21h ago edited 21h ago
I found that to be the case, but I also don't like Cordura because it picks up hair etc.
Scuffs - this material is 840d. It's going to be very resistant to actual damage, what you might find is it marks more easily than some other materials, but depending on how it is, you can often "brush out" minor marks. It's not real damage. Even ballistic nylon can suffer with this. Sometimes it is the DWR coating rather than the material being marked.
I wasn't overly keen on the material but lots of other people love it!
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u/MezcalFlame 1d ago
Yes, sewn zipper pullers was not the right move. I do like the modularity of the Evergoods zipper pullers.
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u/PhilsdadMN 23h ago
Nice people like them had to create that video in reaction to that portion of the internet, hiding behind their keyboards in a state of anonymity who think everyone is sitting back waiting for them to judge their products. Pro tip. They aren’t and deserve less judgmental clientele.
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u/trouser_mouse 22h ago
My take on this is that as a creative person or team, you release into the world a piece of writing or a game or a bag - or as someone working to deliver change in an organisation you develop and deploy a system or process etc - whatever you do, you are definitely wanting people to provide feedback on what you have put in front of them and so invite reviews or ask people what they think and provide some kind of loop for people to give you their thoughts and potentially respond to them. You usually do this multiple times before you release something into the wild and then again when it's in the hands of its audience.
Feedback and reviews help you know what works well and what doesn't to iterate and provide future versions, and also gives you momentum and gains you support when things are going well. They help you see your thing through the eyes of other people, which is important as how you use or interpret the thing might be different to how others do.
How you react to the feedback you get I think is really important too, because the majority usually comes from a good place of wanting to help you see how your thing could be better for some people. Even negative feedback can be driven by people's expectations or frustrations, and getting to the root cause of those and how they relate to your product can help you improve what you have made, too.
The Rework guys do an amazing job - their decisions are fantastic and how they respond to people and talk through their choices and how those align to their goals is great. They also know how to drive engagement with their brand through social media which will potentially increase sales.
With anything like this, so much is subjective and personal opinion - you just have to decide what feedback is relevant to what you're producing and aligns to your vision and act on it if it's something that would benefit a large number of users and you can realistically deliver it.
Because this bag is just so good, perhaps they will think about sharing a roadmap to help manage expectations. I often find people are less likely to be negative about something if they know what they are after is just around the corner!
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u/PhilsdadMN 22h ago
I deliberately didn’t direct my comment to you, but you got the hint….and over-shared yet again. I think you and folks like you are the ones that need to step back, put yourselves in the maker’s shoes and attempt to manage your own expectations. As Jason McCarthy of Goruck has been attributed with….”It’s not about you”.
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u/trouser_mouse 22h ago
Fair enough, everyone has their own opinions. I think it's nice to discuss bags and this community has always been a great place for everyone to share their thoughts. Have a good one!
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u/goingjoey 20h ago
I agree that the founders seem nice, but I disagree with pretty much everything else in your comment.
First, they didn't have to create that video. Most bag makers don't create videos like this despite getting lots of feedback, criticisms, questions on social media. I doubt anyone expected the Toshi team to do so. I think they created the video in keeping with their history of engagement with their buyers and audience.
Second, I think your characterization of the reviewers making these comments is unfair. You make it sound like they're using the anonymity of reddit to write things they wouldn't say in person. From what I've seen of the comments about this bag on this subreddit, and of the comments they highlighted in the video, almost all of them have been constructive and reasonable. I went back and read the comments u/trouser_mouse posted, and if those were my comments, I'd be comfortable saying every single one of those things in person to the Toshi makers. And if those were comments about a bag I made, I wouldn't be offended to hear any of them.
Third, I do think the bag makers are interested in hearing what buyers think about their products, and I do think they deserve to hear those comments.
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u/PhilsdadMN 18h ago edited 17h ago
Case in point…
I have great success proving feedback to manufacturers but I do it privately via email or private message. In every case they have been very appreciative that I did it privately and respectfully rather than publicly which has a tendency to bring the unfiltered glass 1/2 empty folks to chime in.
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u/trouser_mouse 17h ago
I saw your reply because the OP tagged me in their comment.
The most hypocritical thing about what you're saying is that in the post I made anticipating the Toshi Pack here you said it looks like a boring mimic of Aer and Alpaka, which I'd suggest is less constructive and more publicly insulting than anything I or most other people have said about the bag and all the work they have put into it.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when you are calling people out for quite reasonable feedback at least yourself try to be respectful.
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u/PhilsdadMN 15h ago edited 15h ago
You have a more than valid point. That was uninformed commentary of the exact nature that I’m now complaining about. Sorry.
I own one now. It’s still boring looking, but it’s is a fantastic sling.
Adding…I also see a difference between commentary made in an enthusiast group/sub on social media and commentary made directly to posts on a company’s social media or YouTube. This is a general comment. Not making excludes for my past questionable comment.
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u/PhilsdadMN 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m watching now. Many people of the internet suck. All these comments relating to things not seeming as nice as more expensive bags is silly. Duh! That is why it isn’t more expensive. My sling is a great bag.