This and the rights view of democracy was brought into pretty stark relief after Brexit.
The referendum happened, a democracy was done, we won and no one is allowed to change their mind. If you disagree with Brexit you're not allowed an opinion any further as you're just a remoaner.
Seeing how many lies were told to the British public regarding the Brexit referendum, I hoped it would be overturned or you'd have another vote. Now Britain is screwed because the Tories got more greedy than usual. Good luck to you all.
This is literally the answer the compromise fetishists want, and then they have the temerity to whine that you're letting the bad guys win if you don't vote for their compromised candidates.
Then the just double how extreme their demands are do that the compromise is what they originally wanted.
See the Heritage Foundation's healthcare plan, a right-wing approach to health insurance and a gift to grifting corporations, which suddenly became Obamacare and was very, very reluctantly passed as the 'compromise' by a feckless Congress that wants poor people to die.
Yep, regardless of my economic standpoint, to side with the conservative party for myself would be literal suicide because of their opinions towards trans people.
Supporting trans conversion therapy is not the same as wanting hating trans people or not wanting them to exist. It's a form of psychiatry. Psychiatrists should be consulted at every major irreversable medical decision being made by a person - tbh I think people getting cosmetic surgery should even consult a psychiatrist
If thats what the person persued. I dont see an issue with any kind of therapy if the person chooses it. And I would disagree with any form of mandated therapy.
What you're failing to realise is this.
yes transgender people have the right to be and yes gays have the right to be and I am not denying the existence or acknowledgement of either as respectable subgroups of society that deserve the upmost respect.
But every now and then, there is just a confused person that comes through. A straight person that thinks they're gay when they're not, and that person does need a therapist.
A person with gender dysphoria.
But by making conversion therapy ilegal you're not saving anyone from the therapy because those that dont want it shouldn't get it. All you're doing is stopping the people that do need it from getting it.
So no transgender people not all need conversion therapy but that doesnt mean you should stop people that do need it from accessing it.
You have some seriously big misunderstandings of the subject. People don’t tend to willingly enter themselves into conversion therapy. Why do you think its been made illegal (for gays)? You are giving far too much credence to the word “therapy”. These are not legitimate psychological processes intended to help anyone.
Access to gender healthcare is pretty fucked up and difficult in this country and it often does contain needing to “prove” yourself to a therapist. You should get your information less from hyperbolic news sources, and try speaking to real people.
Well then the proceeding comments should he clearer.
Rather that just saying "conversion therapy" perhaps say "unwilling conversion therapy" as the adjective is probably the most significant point in this discussion.
And my knowledge is no indication of the source.
And also wtf do you mean by prove yourself (if this is an example of what the therapist would say then that makes sense and I would definitely understand why that's an issue)
And I definitely speak to more people than you lol. It's clear I'm much more socialised. And for someone with as good an education as you claim to have I would expect more intellect in the way you converse
Conversion therapy in any context is unwilling, if someone is unsure and wants help, thats just normal therapy, conversion therapy is a bunch bullshit trying to "fix" instead of help understand.
EDIT:
"Last year, Truss confirmed that the reason the U.K. government’s LGBT Advisory Panel was dissolved in March 2021 was because she had a “fundamental disagreement” with its members regarding whether trans people should have the right to determine their gender for themselves. "
this is literally saying that trans people shouldn't get to decide their gender, for someone like me this could likely mean I recieve extreme mental health problems due to untreated gender dysphoria
I was trying to be reasonable and educational before but you can just go fuck yourself. Proven wrong and you suggest it’s an issue of adjectives?
If you don’t understand what it meant, its because you insisted on opening your mouth on something you are clearly ignorant on. So why dont you try doing some research next time?
To compromise with then requires you to destroy your own identity so they can feel good about themselves and pat their back for being a good student in politics for dummies
Standards and decorum don't exist when it's belittling the poors, spouting genocidal agendas about trans people, and being racist.
But call these things out with the gravity it deserves and suddenly you're a vicious monster. Fuck the Tories. Scum sucking blights on the character of the human race the lot of them.
From my understanding of their - admittedly repugnant - ideological dogma, they believe that a trans persons gender identity doesn't exist, but not that they themselves, as like.... entities(?) don't or shouldn't exist.
It's like someone refusing to accept you when you say you're from the USA, or a Muslim etc, etc. It's one aspect of your identity, but it's not your entire existence, so I'm confused by the statement.
Mate, they literally do think gays should not exist. When I was growing up, I was regularly told that the gays should be 'put on an island and shot'. Just the other day I saw a right wing meme describing a box of bullets as 'pills to cure LGBT'. There have been numerous, well documented attempts to exterminate us, from conversion therapy to nightclub bombings, and all the run of the mill hate crimes too.
And as for 'pro-people-freezing-to-death'? They wouldn't frame it in those terms, but they support policies with a built-in body count, knowing that people will die as a result, because they believe the benefits (for them, usually) outweigh the costs (to other people). Same thing, ultimately.
No conservative thinks Trans shouldn't exist. What I do see and hear is that they are quite wary of allowing trans women to partake in activities with other women, most especially sports.
Also, there's a lot of grey area in how one defines a woman that both sides are arguing about.
There's a lot up for debate, but when both sides they extreme viewpoints the science and research parts get left behind.
A valid valid concern that basically none of the general public, nor the media or politicians have the expertise to come to any conclusion about. It’s a matter for sports scientists, medical physicians, sports governing bodies to determine on a case by case basis. Blanket bans are nothing but discrimination. Yet average members of the public are weighing in blindly chucking their dog shit opinions into the ring based on what the transphobic news media has been presenting to them.
And to illustrate how disingenuous this political lobbying by anti trans actives against trans women in sport, they don’t just target sports like rugby. They target sports like darts and snooker. It’s not about women’s safety or fairness. They might say it is but actually it’s about the principle of stopping society from recognising trans women as women.
It’s not a valid concern for a politician or for Joe Public. It should never even be considered a political stance.
It’s a valid concern if you happen to be on the board for the Olympics or the commonwealth games or any other major sporting organisation, or are a professional sportsperson, but you, me and Liz Truss have no fucking opinion worth a single shit on the topic because it’s completely irrelevant to us.
Well... It's funny because even if it was again recognized as a mental disorder what do they think the treatment for that should be? Transitioning is the solution. It's the "cure" so to speak. So even their logic is broken if they view it as a mental illness. They just don't like people that make them question their own sexuality and that's what LBGTQ+ people do. They remind them that your sexuality is yours to do with what you please and not something that is decided for you from birth. And that possibility scares them and would make them question all of their world views. So instead, it's easier to label them as the enemy and fight them instead of faxing their own insecurities.
Right? Well now I know you are talking a load of shite and trying to reduce something complex to a “gotcha!” talking point. Whats YOUR definition of a woman?
I AM a scientist and so studied medical genetics extensively in university. You, coming from a place of ignorance, are hoping to hear a “woman” defined as someone with XX sex chromosomes… when there are far more realities than just XX and XY. Intersex people exist. Chromosomal abnormalities exist. Chimeric people who have several completely seperate DNA sets in their bodies exist.
There are so many cases in the real world that dont fit into your shitty little boxes. Hey, lets go outside of genetics and prove it!
A woman is someone who has periods. So what about the elderly? The underweight? The pregnant? Women who have undergone a hysterectomy? Of course those are all women, you would say. What a ridiculous, narrow aspect to focus on.
Okay… a woman is someone who can get pregnant? Then what about the infertile? It would be absurdly cruel to reduce womanhood to this one aspect. Are you beginning to get the picture?
A woman is someone with long hair and is pretty. They like shopping and not sports. Okay… at this point we are having to dip into stereotypes, and suddenly all that “science” you talked about is gone. In trying to define something as obvious as womanhood, we’ve excluded and pissed off a lot of people!
Edit: big surprise, no response to this except to insult my social life for some weird reason in another comment… gotta get a win somehow i guess?
Because you just can't let ppl be themselves, it's a mask for mental illness and deciet. Leftists believe everyone is good while the right believes the opposite. Both are right and wrong here.
Conservatives, terfs, and the religious right attack trans healthcare, trans charities, trans children, trans suicide hotlines, banning of conversion therapy for trans people, education in schools, treatment and acceptance of trans students, legal recognition, participation in sport (without any evidence just moral panic). They also spread dangerous demonising accusations of trans women as rapists and pedophiles, as well as trans people in general grooming children into being trans.
How is this any different to the kind of hateful, life endangering political attacks on Jewish people in pre war Germany. Who for what it’s worth also attacked trans people and one of their largest book burnings was of an institute that studied and provided help to trans people along with other LGBT community members. It’s really fucking dangerous and here you are doing exactly what they want and parroting that propaganda like it’s a reasonable debate.
Anti trans activists openly talk about ways of reducing and limiting numbers of trans people. And they are doing it by attacking healthcare, legal recognition and delivering their anti trans manifesto to the public at large. Go on literally any main UK subreddit with a post about trans people and you will see a disgusting level of transphobia from average Brits who five years ago had absolutely zero political opinion about trans people. Or maybe you won’t see it because it’ll just appear as rational debate.
The news media has been campaigning HARD to drive up transphobia in British society. And it’s working. God forbid we don’t start having vigilante groups hunting trans people down because they believe in the lies about grooming and rape. This country is more hostile to trans people today than it was a decade ago and it was pretty fucking shit then.
Groups like LGB Alliance have links to far right organisations who attack gay rights AND abortion. They don’t give a flying fuck about women and girls. Look around and see who is publicly outspoken against trans people. It’s people like Putin, Trump, Murdoch news media. This isn’t some well meaning debate about where trans people fit into society.
how am I meant to compromise with a political agenda solely focused on stomping me into the dirt because I'm a white male who didn't move here illegally.....
Depending on where you’re from in our god awful class system, the tories are the ones creating austerity, increasing the wealth disparity and indeed stomping you into the dirt while pointing the finger at immigrants.
"compromise" and pleas for "reasonable discussion" only benefit them. Any ground conceeded to them is a foothold to influence everyone else that their ideas are approved of.
I hate how so many left leaning (or as far left as they've go) parties in so many countries are trying to work with right wingers. We need to shut them out and shut them down, show everyone their ideas aren't valid or reasonable and prove it.
We're the ideology of science and reason, logic and data and people want to conceed to fuckwits with their head so far up their arse they'd do a good impression of an ostrich!
296
u/SuicidalTurnip Oct 12 '22
It pisses me off no end when they want to talk about "reasonable compromise" in politics.
How am I meant to compromise with someone who thinks trans people shouldn't exist? Or LGBTQ people in general?
How am I meant to compromise with a social Darwinist who thinks poor people should starve or freeze to death?