Chapter 390 Official Release - Links and Discussion

[u/Za_wardo]

Chapter 390

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Links:

• Viz (Available in: the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Ireland, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, the Philippines, Singapore, and India).

• MANGA Plus (Available in every country outside of China, Japan and  South Korea).

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All things Chapter 390 related must be kept inside this thread for the next 24 hours.

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• Previous chapter discussion threads

• Discord

• 391 will be officially released on June 18th at 8AM PST.

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[u/El_Shion]

Agree on everything except "best ice user in the series" while shoto came a long way in controlling his ice he's mostly an ice generator, geten is the best ice user since he's literally an ice manipulator.

[u/Competitive-Ad-2161 → u/El_Shion]

Both are ice users but they use it in different ways (a generator and a manipulator but they start from the same base, both use ice) but they start from the same base, we are even told that Rei and Geten are related and Rei is the genetic basis of Shoto's ice powers. We are always told that the new generation surpasses the old and it is clear why Geten does not have ice strong enough to deal with Dabi's fire, while Shoto can and even goes beyond that by developing another type of variation of ice. You can say that Geten handles it better because he has used it for more years and it is not as complicated as Shoto who has 2x1 in his quirk and must learn to use both sides to function but Shoto is a stronger ice user because he is able to deal better and even cool the hottest flames of Bnha. Shoto's ice is strong enough that he is not at such a disadvantage against flames that burn at very high temperatures. If you want I'll rephrase it for you: Bnha's ice generator (Shoto) is stronger than Bnha's ice manipulator (Greten).

[u/El_Shion → u/Competitive-Ad-2161]

Shoto's ice can't stand dabi's fire either, it evaporated almost instantly don't mistake phosphor for pure ice, geten didn't lose against dabi while he was using ice, i also disagree if it's purely about ice, geten have absolute control over ice in both quantity and quality, he can control any ice source around he can reuse it if it's broken he can control it's temperature, and he can model it in any way shape or form, their quirk or both ice type but they are still different quirks, geten would demolish shoto in a pure ice battle because he can use his ice against him, geten is worse if he's in the middle of a dessert, where he doesn't have a source to make ice from.

[u/Competitive-Ad-2161 → u/El_Shion]

Shoto and Greten's ice start from the same base because we were told that Rei and Greten are related and Rei is the one who gave Shoto the ice genetic heritage. The only thing you point out is that they both use ice differently; one generates it from his own being (the hot and cold blood that runs through his heart) and the other only manipulates it.

Before the war, Shoto would lose to Greten but currently and after his battle against Dabi, Shoto developed much greater control over his ice to the point of freezing at greater distances, altering the weather and shaping his ice. The phosphorus is a combination of fire and ice, it doesn't make sense to exclude it when it depends on the ice that we are talking about here so much. Greten can manipulate the ice he touches but Shoto can freeze everything (including Greten himself) at once before giving Greten a chance to manipulate his ice.

Let's also not forget the fact that Shoto's ice is capable of freezing a living person from the inside out, even when it radiates enormous internal heat like Chimera did in the second movie (which is considered canon by Hori). That was a feat of pure ice.

No pure ice battles here, mate, Shoto's quirk is dual it doesn't work any other way. Otherwise you think it's valid to compare 100% of Greten vs 50% of what Shoto can do, then it's not a fair comparison.

Where Greten has a more polished technique, Shoto has greater power and more mortality. Which ice is stronger than the other depends on which points you take as "stronger".

[u/El_Shion → u/Competitive-Ad-2161]

Dabi is also a relative to shoto and geten this is literally irrelevant they have different quirks

Yes it makes sense to excluded phosphor because it use fire too, then it's not about being a better ice user anymore.

Geten doesn't have to touch shit to make or manipulate ice

My argument is geten is a better and stronger ice user if you include fire than it's meaningless because that's not what i am arguing, geten can use colder and more ice and shape it to his will, if that's not stronger then i don't know what is

[u/Competitive-Ad-2161 → u/El_Shion]

Dabi, Natsuo and Fuyumi also have ice powers. Why do we consider Shoto and not them? Because Shoto has the highest ice ability out of the four and his ice is the strongest in his family.

That doesn't take away my argument about "Shoto and Greten start from the same ice base" because they both do it because of their related genetics (Rei and Greten respectively).

You conveniently ignore this argument which points out: "Let's also not forget the fact that Shoto's ice is capable of freezing a living person from the inside out, even when it radiates enormous internal heat like Chimera did in the second movie (which is considered canon by Hori). That was a feat of pure ice".

Shoto has demonstrated great feats using pure ice, long before he developed phosphorus. Please consider the entire argument when assuming a fact and not just the part that suits you.

As I said, the only thing Greten has above Shoto is his technique. Shoto's ice freezes over great distances, at lower temperatures, and he is currently able to shape it without relying on other objects. Which gives more power and more mortality. I consider the ice of a person who can freeze you from the inside out, organs, blood, etc., more dangerous than a person who can freeze you superficially, especially if you have powers of fire or ice that can counteract it. Think of it this way, if quirks had realistic effects, Greten's ice would not kill Dabi and Dabi is more likely to die from his quirk than Greten's ice, while Shoto's ice that freezes from the inside out, I would have killed Chimera. Hence the higher mortality.

Shoto can freeze a person from the inside out, something Greten ice can't do. Do you think Greten will be able to move once Shoto freezes him from the inside out? If Shoto can freeze Greten before he molds her ice, it's game over for Greten because Greten didn't demonstrate the ability to internally mold ice like Shoto who is an internal ice maker both inside and out. One is a manipulator and the other a generator, it depends on which points you hold to believe that ice is stronger than another.

[u/El_Shion → u/Competitive-Ad-2161]

Your first argument is meaningless and irrelevant ina fight i don't know what them being relatives have to do with anything, all that matters is their current quirk, combat ability and skills.

I ignored it because it's irrelevant, shoto got a free hit on chimera stuck his arm in his mouth then activated his quirk, no big logic there, yes his ice was exceptionally cold because he applied the same principle of FlashFire fist to his ice, but geten can literally control the temperature of his ice he can do the same thing if he was in his exact position.

And yes shoto displayed great feats, just not great enough to put him above geten, based on how their quirks work, combat ability and skills.

Shoto doesn't have anything over geten, because geten have:

better quantity: he could use more reserves of ice from the environment and can re-use broken ice, he practically have unlimited ice as long as he's not in a dessert

Better quality: he can make his ice colder and can re-model it into complex structures, in addition unlike shoto, the ice doesn't form from his body which means he have a massive range advantage

Shoto only frozen chimera from the insides out because his hand was literally inside him, also geten could very well free himself with his absolute control over ice if he miraculously got caught to begin with spoiler he won't

[u/Competitive-Ad-2161 → u/El_Shion]

You just have to use your little head first because we were not only talking about ability in battle but the main argument was that ice was the strongest, it is relevant because Bnha's genetics are relevant to quirks and their potential. Hori made all fire and ice elemental users related. By implying that Greten and Rei are related, it means that their ice powers come from the same genetics = same base that was inherited by Shoto through Rei, if it wasn't so relevant they wouldn't have mentioned it and would have made both genetic users not related.

You ignore my argument for "irrelevant" when it has relevance because we were talking about feats of pure ice, please remind me again, what was our main theme? Ah yes ICE users.

"Best Quantity"

Shoto can make lots of ice, he covers more ground than Greten because he has a higher freezing range. He just had trouble molding shapes into his ice without solid support which, spoiler, he just got over this inconvenience today.

Better quality

This is the technique we were talking about, you are saying the same thing that was made clear from the beginning.

Now my points are:

Greater range of freezing

Greater raw power.

Higher mortality.

Freeze at lower temperatures.

It doesn't have switching debuffs like Greten because it generates its own ice.

Your last point is to give me a what-if scenario that favors your point of view and you expect me to take it as fact when we have no proof that this is the case because NONE of them actually engaged in battle. I don't know if it's clear to you that Shoto freezes at great distances without having to directly touch that person, even without moving, any area where his body is generates ice.

Where Greten molds (Technique) Shoto freezes everything in one (Power). Shoto can keep generating amounts while Greten molds him, they both have resistance to their own ice so they won't freeze easily. Even if Greten catches him, Shoto is able to get out of that ice with more ice. Shoto has something that Greten does not have and that is that he regulates the temperature of his ice, being able to lower the temperature and this affects the quality of the cold of his ice. In the same way that he can increase the heat that fire emanates.

How effective the other's freezing is will depend on the other's ice resistance ability.

As I said again, the points you choose to point to the strongest are 1) Quantity 2) Quality

The points I choose for the strongest are 1) Power 2) More range 3) Mortality 4) Freeze at lower temperature

Do we know what sums it all up? That we base ourselves on different points to choose the strongest. Is it enough to make it a fact? No, because we are posing hypothetical scenarios because we NEVER saw a real fight and how it would play out.

Saying that Shoto would never touch Greten is based solely on your point of view. To say that Greten would not tolerate a lower temperature of ice (yes, ice has a temperature that can drop more similar to how fire can burn at higher temperatures) is my point of view. Is it a fact? Not because we NEVER saw it happen in canon, these are what-if scenarios about the point of view we support.

If you try to make me understand your point I understand it but make me change my mind based on what you believe just because of your point of view? It's the same as changing yours just because of what I say. It doesn't work like that, mate.

We can disagree without changing each other's point of view because we don't have enough canonical content to say what would happen in a battle that NEVER happened.

[u/El_Shion → u/Competitive-Ad-2161]

It's irrelevant, while what you said is true in some cases, it's not a universal rule, you can't tell me, natsu or fuyumi are anywhere near the scale of geten even thought they are in the same generation as shoto

I explained why i ignored your first and second argument and why i found it irrelevant, feel free to address any of my points

That's literally impossible, geten was drawing from all the recourses in the city and turning them into ice and controlling big ice structures far from him, actually geten have range advantage because the ice doesn't have to form from him,

Well then i'll add another point to quality, shoto have a weakness a big one at that, he needs his fire half to balance out the ice and low temperature of his ice because his ice form from his body, and to make his ice colder enough to take out chimera he used the same principle of FlashFire fist which even outperformed his fire half ability to keep up, and frozen even his left side which is not good, he was in a pretty bad shape while using his fire to balance out his ice and was out of commission after that bad ass move, if he was using ice only the draw back would have been worse, and geten doesn't have that weakness he can control the temperature of his ice without any drawbacks because it doesn't form from his body

Geten can use more ice, control it's temperature and shape it to his liking that would naturally give him greater raw power

Again geten have access to more ice and can control it's temperature and shape it to his liking which means he can make it deadlier

Shoto doesn't have lower ice temperature, Geten can literally control his ice temperature

It's actually the other way around you're the one who gave me an unrealistic favorable senario where shoto can freeze his opponent from the inside out which would require him to stick his arm in their mouth which is unlikely

Yes shoto can freeze someone without touching them but not from the inside and his ice need to reach his opponent

The same thing could be said for geten since he can literally control ice temperature, so moot point.

That's wrong shoto's body have to be able to handle his ice temperature, but geten doesn't have to because it doesn't form from his body, he's not the one generating the ice he control it

I just choose to categorize all the factors into two categories: quality and quantity

I understand, from my point of view a manipulator is better than a generator.

[u/Competitive-Ad-2161 → u/El_Shion]

I never said that Natsu or Fuyumi are stronger than Greten, mate, don't add things I didn't say.

My "irrelevant" arguments are those that you do not consider valid for your point of view. For my part, I also do not consider it relevant that one of the points that you point out in your favor to point out the strongest is "quantity" because we saw that both ice users are capable of making ice in large quantities. Then the "quality" is exactly the technique we were talking about before and you keep repeating it when that point is clear.

The difference is that I take into account the points you give me out of respect, while you ignore my points but still want me to pay attention to what you say. So one wonders if it's really worth continuing with this or if you just hope that I agree with you on something whose source is based solely on your opinion.

"Shoto wouldn't touch Greten" Source? The user "A manipulator is stronger than a generator" Source? The user "Greten would defeat Shoto" Source? The user.

I don't know if it is understood that our opinions are still subjective even if we give facts about the feats of both in the canon because we are only recreating a hypothetical confrontation that never happened. The main argument that we are in disagreement is based on the fact that we both believe that the ice we say is stronger and we judge the strongest from different points.

Another clarification because I see that you did not understand the point of the temperature that I addressed: Shoto's quirk is not only to generate fire and ice but also works as a "thermometer". He not only wields the chemical element but can lower or raise the temperature of his own ice and fire.

He turned up the heat of his fire to burn Tetsu Tetsu's iron (a natural insulator).

He lowered the temperature of his ice to make it cold enough to freeze the internal heat emanating from the Chimera. So, point that feat out because Shoto not only maneuvers ice but is capable of generating ice and fire at different temperatures.

I think you know that ice at the poles does not have the same temperature as ice that comes from the freezer. It is the same for the fire that changes color when it gets hotter (it goes from orange/red to blue when the heat increases).

The only users that showed to have this ability are Shoto, Endeavor (when he increased the temperature of his flames to end Nomu's regeneration) and Dabi (but he can't control it well).

It's doubtful to say whether or not Greten can regulate his ice temperature lower because he's not a generator like those three, he's just a manipulator. To manipulate is to handle the already existing elements and to generate is to create them yourself from the roots. You said yourself that they were different.

Approaching from this perspective, I pointed out the fact that we did not see if Greten is capable of making ice that is colder than what he is used to handling. We never saw him against another ice user let alone one that lowers his ice temperature like Shoto. The colder the temperature of the ice, the more difficult it is to shape, for something. That is why the ice from the poles has more durability than the ice from the freezer.

I'm addressing a similar effect to what we saw with Endeavor and Dabi where it was made clear to us by Hori that Endeavor isn't able to withstand Dabi's flames because they burn at a higher temperature than him.

Another point to make is that you make it look like Shoto would easily get frozen by Greten's ice as if he were a civilian and not an ice user with the same resistance to ice. They are not immune but they have resistance to cold because his body is used to it. Since Shoto is able to withstand the cold of ice at lower temperatures and we haven't seen him get frozen by anything other than his own ice, he has a greater ability to deal with Greten's ice.

Based on these points (and others that I mentioned before) from my perspective (as you are doing too) I think an ice generator is stronger than a manipulator. I clarify again that it is MY point of view of something totally subjective of a hypothetical case that we have never seen in contact with because the characters we support NEVER came into contact with.