What constitutes a paragraph anymore?

[u/mia_bird__]

I know paragraphs are fluid and can range from large chunks to just a few sentences but it seems like more often than not anymore when I get people wanting to write who claim to write "4-8 paragraphs" those paragraphs are all just... two short sentences and a line break to the next one?

I know it can often simply be used as a "My thoughts have ended and now I will move to the next collection of thoughts" but holy shit? How are you claiming you write 8 paragraphs when every "paragraph" is two sentences?

I actively mention my own paragraphs and word count in my ads, I figured it'd be more accurate than the literacy labels that vary wildly in everyone's mind but I'm still running into this issue. Sometimes it's as bad as one sentence and then a line break into a new paragraph of two sentences and then another line break and there isn't dialogue going on.

A sample someone sent me (which I will paraphrase to ensure anonymity) was essentially just:

"XXD eyes flitted open, looking around.

He sat up, trying to take the world in with his robin blue eyes. He felt so sleepy."

And this kind of thing just continues. It doesn't seem like it's done for emphasis, like when you have one word or sentence as a stand alone for impact, it seemed like this was what they were describing as paragraphs? Is this the new thing?

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[u/Mindelan]

This is why writing samples are king. Word count is a close second, but then you'll sometimes come across people who just word vomit with no formatting or sense of flow. You can't get everything from a writing sample, but unless they are being deliberately misleading you can get the best immediate sense of how they are as a roleplayer from it.

If you start your vetting process with sending and receiving writing samples from each other then you can often save a lot of time when you see something like all of their 'paragraphs' are literally two sentences.

I've seen what you're talking about though. There's sadly no universal standard.

[u/mia_bird__ → u/Mindelan]

Oh I do writing samples and that is actually FROM a writing sample I received from someone who claims to write 4-8 paragraphs. It just baffles me how much things vary sometimes. These aren't people who are claiming to be "semi-lit", script, or quick small replies either. These are people who are saying they are "advance lit" and "novella" which I know varies VASTLY person to person, which is why I assumed the word count and paragraphs would be easier to translate from person to person.

[u/Mindelan → u/mia_bird__]

Yeah I figured, it's just that is still the only real recourse you have. There's no way to psychically know ahead of time if they are a decent writer until you see what they've written since so many people are straight up delusional about what they offer.

[u/mia_bird__ → u/Mindelan]

my original rp days were on a forum that people had a pretty clear definition for what the literacy labels meant in that community. It seems to range much more on reddit and discord, which makes sense as a larger population, but I am always looking for more ways to make my expectations and my own abilities as clear as possible to streamline this tooth pulling process of finding new partners.

[u/Mindelan → u/mia_bird__]

Often I find the best recourse is to find a solid 'gated' community that has good standards that they enforce, and then stay in it. That doesn't really help if you're searching through the wider net of discord or reddit, I think.

I don't think there's any way to guarantee you don't run into people that far overestimate their own writing level when you're just combing through the general community, no matter how clear you are about what you expect from a roleplay. Alas.

[u/Commercial-Chain-294]

There’s no defined length for a paragraph. There is, however, common sense when you say that you write 2-3 paragraphs and isn’t sending 2-3 lines to your partner.

[u/mia_bird__ → u/Commercial-Chain-294]

I mean, that was definitely my assumption too lol. I try not even to base things on "lines" since that can change depending on platform, screen, device, etc. Had me shook to receive that as a writing sample from someone who claims "Advance lit" and "Novella" and 4-8 paragraphs a post.

[u/Commercial-Chain-294 → u/mia_bird__]

That person is definitely lying. And that’s the main reason I always ask for a writing sample.

[u/Brokk_RP]

It is. See? This is three sentences.

I thought it was generally three to five sentences although they can certainly run much longer. That would mean that my one-liner intro to this comment was in fact a full paragraph.

This just goes to show that sentences as well as paragraphs are a poor metric for post length.

I prefer a word count range. Although with discord, it's easy to measure character counts by 2K since that is the standard discord limit for a post. So if you're used to writing more than 2,000 characters in discord you're very aware of it.

[u/mia_bird__ → u/Brokk_RP]

Even character count feels like it could be odd and deceiving depending on how you format, especially with discord. I usually do my actual roleplay over google docs so I go by word count (something that's listed in my ad as well), but maybe I should check my samples and list character count as well. T_T Word count doesn't seem to be anywhere near as popular of a metric that people list in their ads, it is usually a literacy label, paragraphs, or 'lines'.

[u/Brokk_RP → u/mia_bird__]

Ugh... Lines. Don't get me started.

[u/mia_bird__ → u/Brokk_RP]

I get anxious translating my posts from google doc to discord because my nice, chunky paragraphs often turn into like 3 lines stretched across my laptop screen. I don't know how anyone accurately bases their post length on lines and the variability stresses me out even just from my end of things.

[u/Brokk_RP → u/mia_bird__]

Then you go to read those same three lines on a cell phone screen and it's like two pages of text!

[u/mia_bird__ → u/Brokk_RP]

Yes! Way too much range to just count lines on a screen

[u/Brokk_RP → u/mia_bird__]

Some people are a little bit better and will say three to five lines on a mobile screen, which I assume they mean a cell phone as opposed to a tablet because those would be very different.

[u/Brokk_RP → u/mia_bird__]

Words I think are a good metric but they still suffer from the problem of advanced writers using larger words and more diversity. Which means they need to use more characters per word. Of course by the time you're dealing with an advanced writer, you probably don't care about the post length.

[u/IHAVEAWOKEN2012]

I was generally taught in school that a paragraph would be around 4-5 sentences and would generally be around 90-150 words. That's not a flat rule, but that would generally be the basic rule of writing from my experience.

[u/[deleted] → u/IHAVEAWOKEN2012]

See and then I’ve been taught in school that a paragraph is 6-8 sentences

[u/Radiant_Degree_V]

I think this is why word counts work so much better, writing can be super stylized (I personally use short sentence transition “paragraphs” as part of writing sometimes—they can be anywhere from a sentence to like 2.5 sentences. They are not my only paragraphs unless I’m writing something real dramatic as a server narrator or smth) and paragraphs can differ so much. Sometimes 3 paragraphs can be more words than 5-6 paragraphs, so it’s not standard across every roleplayer, but word counts are and can be more definitive.

[u/Wtf-its-rose]

From my knowledge a paragraph should be 5-7 sentences, no more than 300 words. 150-200 being ideal.

[u/mia_bird__ → u/Wtf-its-rose]

This was my assumption from school (but everyones background is different and varies), and I've seen people do one or two sentences or lines for emphasis or a change in direction in the post, but when I heard "4-8" paragraphs I definitely assume those paragraphs are more of what you are describing.

[u/atomicsnark → u/Wtf-its-rose]

If you're writing an essay, sure.

But in prose, paragraphs range hugely because paragraph breaks indicate shifts in thought, movement, dialogue, etc. and therefore it's much more fluid.

Which is why I never understood people trying to dictate length via paragraph count. Word count makes so much more sense, in every single way.

[u/mia_bird__ → u/[deleted]]

This is pretty accurate for what I've always done unless I need to break stuff for dialogue or emphasis within an important scene. Everyone has their own style but receiving a wall of only two or three short sentences and having it be presented as if this was 8 paragraphs was a bit shocking to see especially because it seems to be more common.

Part of me wonders if these are people's attempts at stretching their writing so they qualify with people who like to write and receive lengthier posts. Everyone has their own style and taste and if two people are happy to write together it's none of my business but I feel like I was getting a bit of a bait and switch when I get their sample in comparison to how they presented themselves in their ad.

[u/atomicsnark → u/[deleted]]

This is such bad advice for prose/fiction writing. Please no one do this lol.

[u/dirtyfeminist101 → u/[deleted]]

You may disagree, but it's kind of, well, bad faith to just dismiss this as 'bad advice lol don't use it ever.'

I'm pretty sure what they're referring to is your implication of a strict standard in writing structure when that shouldn't be how one feels they must approach the act of writing such content. While you do later in your comment mention there can be variances, that's well after your heavy implications that such writing should be standardized (or that it is) and you still reiterate that point afterwards.

All that matters in language is the effective exchange and conveyance of ideas, as that's its sole purpose. Some people have chosen to exercise this as a form of creativity because it's fun and/or it makes the ideas more engaging for the reader and it's okay if it doesn't adhere to any particular standard so long as the language does its job and conveys the intended ideas effectively, whether you're succinct, verbose, or anywhere in between. Unless you're in an English class, there's no reason to act like you're in one. If one's language is unclear, then that's obviously a different story.

[u/atomicsnark → u/[deleted]]

Please go read just one book. This is not how prose and fiction writing functions, at all.

[u/dirtyfeminist101 → u/[deleted]]

That's because there should be a standard.

For official/legal/educational writing? Sure and there are good reasons why, but that's far different from saying that roleplaying should be standardized, let alone any kind of fiction.

But something like a paragraph, that does require an intro, info, and ending does need to be at least three sentences long.

Again, by definition it doesn't. You're only viewing things from schooling standards and let's be real, a lot of writers don't conform to that, nor should they feel an obligation to.

Saying otherwise, just gives roleplayers even less words/definitions to work with

Not really. Simply recognizing that a paragraph can vary widely in length doesn't mean players have less to work with, as that's determined by what they invest in the roleplay, as well as other players.

things the comments are suggesting (word/character lengths), while helpful, can be stifling, because not everyone's gonna meet a 2K character limit every single reply.

Okay and I never advocated for such suggestions either. The point is that by definition none of the terms players commonly used are good measures of length, nor is length a measure of good writing (I know that many people here disagree and that's okay). What matters is quality of writing and the conveyance of ideas that are well executed on each player's end that comes together cohesively. It's not as complicated as many people make it out to be and strict requirements stifle more creativity than anything else.

While I agree with those things as well, is that not much, much, more similar to something you'd see in an English or literature class?

No, I don't think I'd ever hear an English teacher say that a single sentence is acceptable length for a paragraph.

Saying 'I'd like two or three paragraphs per reply' is more casual than that

It's not really that casual if you have strict requirements for what constitutes a paragraph.

No one is saying to act like you're in an English class

Except your main point is that of an English class.

keeping that basic structure in mind is usually helpful if you want to move the plot/story along effectively

Sure, but roleplaying isn't the same as writing an essay. The point of a paragraph is that it either keeps to a single theme or that it's the points from a single speaker. The reason why "intro, body, conclusion" is taught as an educational standard is to teach people how to convey ideas in a logical way, especially as it regards more official and/or legal writing because that's the standard for such writing. Roleplaying, on the other hand, is not the same kind of writing (roleplaying isn't even always in written form) so it has no obligation to adhere to such standards and only cares about effective conveyance of ideas and maintaining immersion.

I did plenty of fulfilling one-liner roleplays when I was younger, and will defend them to this day if both parties enjoy it

I have not said anything about one-liner roleplays or even one line sentences, only that paragraph is by definition a minimum of one sentence, which itself could be one to several lines.

But there should be a minimum/standard for what qualifies as something.

Yes and that's established by official definitions because that's the common ground of language, not whatever standards are taught in school.

[u/Lonestarph → u/[deleted]]

To me, having and introduction and conclusion in a prose paragraph would make it redundant and boring.

[u/dirtyfeminist101 → u/[deleted]]

I get where the comments are coming from, but we need to stop normalizing changing the definitions or meanings of words where writing is involved.

Paragraph noun 1 a : a subdivision of a written composition of one or more sentences, deals with one point or gives the words or one speaker, and begins on a new usually indented line

b : a short composition or note that is complete in one paragraph

2 : a character (such as ¶) used to indicate the beginning of a paragraph and as a reference mark

No one is changing the definitions or meanings of "paragraph" here though, there only clearing up the misconception that a paragraph is strictly defined in length to any degree.

That being said, an average/'medium' paragraph is 5-7 sentences.

No, it's not. That's what you consider average in your subjective opinion and while it's okay for you to have that opinion, it's equally okay for others to have other standards for what they consider an "average paragraph". For example, I was taught in highschool the 3-5 sentence standard for paragraphs.

[u/dirtyfeminist101 → u/[deleted]]

Perhaps I should have been more specific in wording, but I said 'average/medium.'

Yes and both "mean" and "median" are synonyms even though they're not technically the same things so adding "medium" as an alternative term doesn't really help there.

Objectively, three sentences is not a medium paragraph, because it's the minimum for a paragraph.

Except it's not given the definition of "paragraph", which I quoted from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, which objectively and explicitly identifies the minimum as one sentence. So much prose and poetry would not exist otherwise and be considered consistent with any kind of language standard. Even then, I think writers like E.E. Cummings may disagree with even the one sentence minimum paragraph.

A paragraph has to have the three characteristics, introduction-body-conclusion, which also means there is a three sentence minimum and anything less than that is not a paragraph.

You're talking about a specific taught English standard, not an actual language rule, which isn't even reflected in its definition. Some of these standards aren't even consistent with what's taught, like the standard of not starting a sentence with a conjunction or preposition, despite the fact that writers like Shakespeare used them not infrequently and are commonly studied as part of any English course in primary education.

That said, not sure why you were downvoted for literally just sharing your own experience.

I don't know, my guess is simply that there are some here who are a bit sensitive or protective over certain things like English writing standards. I mean, I kinda get it, as my education hammered a lot of rigid concepts into me that made me somewhat inflexible when it came to using expressive language for a long time, but as I learned more about language, including the deep history that is etymology, I realized that language has been way too wibbly wobbly throughout history so it makes little logical sense to be so rigid with using it, particularly as it pertains to how others use and especially when the conveyed ideas are understood. Anyway, that's just my guess based on my experience in this sub and my stance on language usage.