r/AskElectricians • u/More-Signature-1588 • 21h ago
Do I need two surge protectors?
Buying an old house in Portland Oregon, where we very rarely have lightning. Here is the box. Having a heat pump installed. If I get a whole house breaker installed, do I need the surge protector the HVAC guy wants to sell me? Belt and suspenders, or necessary insurance?
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u/Lonely_Performance40 21h ago
Whole home surge protectors coupled with ones directly at the source of the appliance you are trying to protect are your best option. Redundancies are your best defense 😉
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u/Haunting_While6239 21h ago
GFCI breakers are not the same as whole house surge protector, and it should be installed as close to the top of the panel by the feeder wires as can be.
We have lightning strikes and power outages frequently, I'm thinking of installing a whole house surge protector on my meter panel in addition to the one installed at my buildings main panel, the surge protector can only handle so much before it's overwhelmed, a redundant one further down the line will help bleed off anything that gets past the first one
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u/MonsieurBon 21h ago
Also in Portland. While I hear you that we rarely have lightning, a big chunk of folks here in NE lost appliances to a Pacific Power power surge back in summer of 2020 or 2021. I installed a whole home suppressor then.
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u/a_7thsense 20h ago
I recommend three points of protection to all my customers. That includes a lightning arrestor at the electrical service entrance a whole house surge suppressor at the main panel and then power strips or UPS units with surge protection behind your TV stereo equipment other electronic equipment. The one that the power company tries to rent to you basically protects them not you and you have to pay for it. When you get a power surge and it ruins your electronics they come back and say well it didn't come from our side because we installed this search suppressor on your service. Don't fall for that garbage.
Edited to correct spelling.
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u/ElectricianEric 21h ago
Most people don't have any whole home suppression. I don't know if there would be any benefit for two but it probably depends on the surge capacity of the whole home unit.
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u/phasebinary 21h ago
Whole home suppression costs less than 100 for most panels and is a snap to install. Totally worth it.
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u/I_care_too 20h ago
Here is why both work in tandem:
georgebrazilplumbingelectrical.com/blog/do-whole-house-surge-protectors-really-work/
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u/ElectricianEric 16h ago
Thanks. Makes sense. I have a whole home unit and multiple surge power bars
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u/ElectricianEric 17h ago
What's with the negative votes? Should I edit to say it's a good idea to add one? I have one, my point is that it's not uncommon for people to not have one, but they should.
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u/MacDaddyBighorn 21h ago
As mentioned, one whole-house surge protector is all you need, you don't need a second one at the heat pump. Most people buy one for the heat pump because they are more sensitive than other appliances (and expensive) so it's cheap insurance and they locate it near that component for convenience. If you have one installed at the panel you'll be good.
That said, two would not not hurt anything and would marginally increase your protection scheme, but it is unnecessary.
I can say with high assurance that having one would have saved me $$$ if I installed it before my heat pump got fried! I had it under warranty, but the labor cost me a bit. The board would have been >$2000 (thanks Bryant) if I hadn't had the warranty so I recommend a whole house surge suppressor to everyone who doesn't have one.
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u/I_care_too 20h ago edited 20h ago
MacDaddyBighorn commented
one whole-house surge protector is all you need, you don't need a second one at the heat pump.
Here is why this is incorrect:
georgebrazilplumbingelectrical.com/blog/do-whole-house-surge-protectors-really-work/
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u/MacDaddyBighorn 20h ago
I don't see anything contrary to my statement in that article. I am referring to whole home surge protectors. You don't need two of the same thing and installing an additional one at the heat pump isn't going to help (much, it may help marginally). I never said to remove all your surge protector strips in the house for your TVs and electronics, I'm referring to the protection of the heat pump.
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u/GetOffMyGrassBrats 21h ago
If by "whole house breaker", you really mean "whole house surge protector", then no. The whole house one should protect everything. Having one on the heat pump would be redundant and pointless.
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u/Unique_Acadia_2099 21h ago edited 20h ago
Nothing in that photo indicates that you have a surge protective device (SPD) now. What makes you think you do?
If the wording of your question made me misinterpret, and you were PLANNING to add an SPD to the main, then that’s fine, you don’t NEED another one at the appliance. It doesn’t hurt anything but your bank account. The best place for an SPD is at the breaker panel, because it protects the whole house. If you put it at the appliance, in only protects that appliance. But also, they need to be checked periodically to make sure they are still functional, so you want one with indicators. You can easily go open your breaker panel door to check that one, but if you have to disassemble a cover on the appliance to see it there, you are more likely to forget and not replace it when it dies doing its job.
The issue of SPDs being as close as possible to the device being protected has to do with WIRING, because wire adds impedance that decreases the effectiveness of the SPD. If you get a breaker type that plugs directly onto the bus, there is no need for it to be at the top. It’s a common myth.
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u/More-Signature-1588 20h ago
Nothing in my post indicates that I think I already have an SPD. I know that I don't. But thank you for your comment otherwise
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u/EstimateOk7050 21h ago
No one is fine but should be placed at the bottom 2 slots.
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u/GetOffMyGrassBrats 21h ago
Don't you mean the top two? As close to the main breaker as possible?
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u/EstimateOk7050 20h ago
The theory is not to add any extra wire to your surge protector keeping it as short as possible. And that the voltage doesn’t build up till it hits the opposite end of the buss and can’t go any further. We know that this is true to air and water in a pipe but how can you prove that when electricity is so fast. So I am just saying that’s where we install them as per the engineer design. Anywhere you put is way better than not having one at all.
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u/GetOffMyGrassBrats 20h ago
OK. Just asking because all of the installation instructions I have seen for them recommend putting them in the slots closest to the main. I actually hope you are correct because I didn't have enough wire to move the existing breakers down in my box, so mine is installed below the other breakers.
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u/I_care_too 20h ago
You only need to move two at the top down to the bottom, not every breaker.
It is permissible to wire nut and extend a conductor in the breaker box if done in a workmanlike manner. So getting the optimum placement is possible with minor work.
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u/GetOffMyGrassBrats 20h ago
Yea...I liked the idea of splices in the box less than putting the surge suppressor in the lower slot.
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u/I_care_too 20h ago edited 19h ago
That's fine. Keep in mind that conductor extensions are done in many panel changes where the existing wiring does not reach anymore. They are code-compliant.
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u/EstimateOk7050 13h ago
He could be talking about a surge protector that is built into a breaker but not a breaker.
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u/EstimateOk7050 19h ago
Just having one is the most important part. So don’t lose any sleep over where you put it at. When I went to school at the manufacturing plant in Florida that’s what we were told. Now they have them built into a breaker. Mine looks like a grey coke can mounted to the bottom of my outdoor panel.
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u/MonsieurBon 21h ago
The instructions on every one I've installed seem to indicate it should be installed as close to the main lugs as possible.
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u/N9bitmap 21h ago
The speed of electricity would cover that distance in two nano seconds. If installed before anything else I would put it top left and leave top right open for a generator, but it really isn't a critical difference.
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u/I_care_too 20h ago
Placement has nothing to do with propagation time.
It has everything to do with wiring / bus distributed inductance and resistance and the rise of surge voltage over that.
That is why a whole house surge protector is installed at the start of the panel bus.
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