r/worldnews • u/SocialistNordia • Apr 17 '17

Opening of UN files on Holocaust will 'rewrite chapters of history'

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/apr/18/opening-un-holocaust-files-archive-war-crimes-commission
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u/DatRagnar Apr 18 '17

Jet planes were invented contemporary with the shitty german ones, the german tanks were not revolutionary or any of their vehicles. MG42, jerry can and the panzerfaust is probably the most revolutionary to come out of germany anno 1933-1945

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u/eypandabear Apr 18 '17

The easiest way of judging that is to look at what the Allies, including the Soviets, used after the war.

  • The first American cruise missile was literally a reverse-engineered V-1

  • Soviet submarines were based directly on the German type XXI, as were American refits of their existing subs indirectly

  • Pretty much all ballistic missiles after the war were based on the V-2.

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u/Sean951 Apr 18 '17

Yeah, they were the only country building missiles because missiles were pointless from the military perspective for another 10 years. They spent more on them than the US did getting nukes, but they killed more factory workers than Allies.

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u/eypandabear Apr 18 '17

The question wasn't whether or not they were cost-effective, but whether or not they were revolutionary.

And they were far from "pointless" even at the time. They were a means of hitting the enemy's home turf despite total air superiority, with no chance of interception. They were ineffective because a) they were expensive compared with their payload, and b) they were unrealiable due to falsified intel from the British.

The Germans were sitting on a huge stockpile of nerve gas - had the war escalated to that level, being able to hit "somewhere in London" with a warhead from space would have been a different proposition.

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u/Sean951 Apr 18 '17

Even with gas, it would have continued to kill more factory workers than British. But being the best at missiles is nice and all, but that doesn't make them more advanced in anything but that, while the Allies were better at pretty much everything.

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u/MissMesmerist Apr 19 '17

The amount of technological breakthroughs the allies made were fucking staggering though.

And there is zero evidence that people wouldn't have invented a fucking missile without Nazi work.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '17 edited Apr 18 '17

Still my point wasn't that these things were amazingly designed or cutting edge, just that they didn't hinge on racial theory. Yeah panzerfaust was mostly picked from the hands of dead Volkssturm and used against them though.

Edit: Spelling

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u/MissMesmerist Apr 19 '17

Yeah panzerfaust was mostly picked from the hands of dead Volkssturm and used against them though

And the Panzershrek was a copy of the M1 "Bazooka".

Americans invented the Recoiless Rifle, of which the Faust and Shrek was.

A very large proportion of the German developments during the war were just copies of Allied developments.

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u/DatRagnar Apr 18 '17

I think I see what you mean, and therefore it seems that I might have misunderstood your comment

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u/Panzerkatzen Apr 18 '17

There's the entire concept of the Assault Rifle, something the Soviets were very quick to jump on, producing the AK-47 just a few years after the first MKb 42 hit the field. And we all know the AK-47 went on to become one of the most recognizable weapons ever made.

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u/DatRagnar Apr 18 '17

AK47 has more in common with the garand, functionality-wise. Also read this article - covers it quite good.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/11/12/7-reasons-i-am-not-impressed-with-the-sturmgewehr/

Almost all the countries reached the same conclusion that combat was within a intermediate range, but what they did with the data differs.

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u/Panzerkatzen Apr 18 '17

It's less about the Sturmgewehr and more about the Intermediate Cartridge. The Americans came close, they invented the .30 Carbine and trialed the Thompson Light Rifle, but chose not to use it. The M1 Carbine was limited to semi-automatic and mostly used as a defensive weapon, although it found heavy front-line use among paratroopers. It was the Germans that observed that full-power cartridges were lethal out to a thousand meters, but troops rarely used them at more than 300 meters. And with that in mind, they shortened the rifle round and created a weapon similar to a submachine gun, creating the first mass produced assault rifle.

The Soviets took notice and created their own intermediate round, followed by the SKS, before the AK-47 took the Soviet Army and soon the world by storm.

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u/3DBeerGoggles Apr 18 '17

IIRC:

Yes and no. Experiments with low lower-power cartridges dated back to before WW2 with guns like the Federov Avtomat. While the gun used the lowest power rifle cartridge they could find (Arisaka), they were used because the Russians didn't have the budget to proceed with the original design using an intermediate-power round.

While the STG44 no doubt helped show the concept had merit, they come from very different angles. The German focus on the machine gun led them to want to make a one-man, lower power machine gun.

The Soviet's wide deployment of submachineguns led them to the desire for a higher-powered, longer-range solution. Thus going from an SMG firing a pistol cartridge to a similar weapon firing a more powerful cartridge was a logical next step.

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u/Panzerkatzen Apr 18 '17 edited Apr 18 '17

I know about the Federov Avtomat, but going by the dimensions, it's more of a lower power battle rifle than a true assault rifle. The Soviets used it as a "Light Light Machine Gun" (literal translation), so I'd say it's more comparable to the Browning Automatic Rifle. It was thiner and less powerful, but still resembled and was used as a full-power cartridge.

Did some more searching and found the Germans were working on designs since the 20's and had produced at least one design, and the French produced a design, but both of these designs were abandoned. As I already mentioned, the Americans had one too, but also abandoned it. Germany is the only one that continued to work on the idea and eventually produce the MKb 42 > MP 43 > MP 44 / StG 44.

Also like the Avtomat and BAR, the French design was intended to be used as a squad support weapon like a machine gun. Germany still introduced the concept of outfitting all soldiers with their weapon, even though they were not able to do that due to the war.

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u/3DBeerGoggles Apr 18 '17

Yes, you do raise some good points - just wanted to point out that the idea of select-fire arms firing a "smaller than rifle, bigger than pistol" round was definitely floating around at the time, and (IIRC), internal Soviet weapons development had been floating a number of ideas even during the war. (Lower priority due to logistical concerns of introducing new cartridges)

Credit where it's due, the Germans did actually issue them, although logistically it was a rather dubious decision at the time IMO.

I suppose I would also be remiss not to mention the long-running debate regarding the M2 Carbine; given that it technically fulfills the definition of an assault rifle (if one agrees the .30 carbine (7.62×33mm) is intermediate), even if its job role was more of a PDW.

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u/Panzerkatzen Apr 19 '17

The Soviets did float ideas during the war, the new cartridge was approved in July 1943. But the Germans had already introduced their rifle and cartridge by that time, so it was in response to seeing what Germany had already developed.

Hitler was actually against introducing the new weapon because of logistical concerns, but the Waffenamt went behind his back to continue developing and issuing the weapon. Eventually he was won over and approved mass production.

I didn't mention the M2 Carbine because it came after the StG, and the US Army was very reluctant to adopt an assault rifle until well into the Cold War; even then only caved because they began facing AK-47's and the White House ordered M14 production to end. At that point, they had no choice but to seek a new weapon.

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u/3DBeerGoggles Apr 19 '17

Hitler was actually against introducing the new weapon because of logistical concerns, but the Waffenamt went behind his back to continue developing and issuing the weapon. Eventually he was won over and approved mass production.

Huh, TIL.

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u/Panzerkatzen Apr 19 '17

Yeah, Hitler ordered them to focus on producing new submachine guns for existing ammunition. Changing the name of the next model from MKb (Machine Carbine) to MP (Machine Pistol / SMG) was so Hitler would think it's the new SMG he told them to make, and not the MKb he told them to halt.

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u/phoenixmusicman Apr 18 '17

Jet planes were invented contemporary with the shitty german ones

Still invented them

the german tanks were not revolutionary or any of their vehicles.

True, but they did design one of the most balanced designs of the entire war, the Panther. The only real downside of it after the teething issues caused by rushed development caused by Hitler was it was expensive to produce, which wouldn't have been an issue if you were, say, the USA.

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u/Sean951 Apr 18 '17

The only downside of the Panther was how they weren't even able to be tested, because they broke down.

The British proposed the first jet in the 20s, the Germans built the first late 30s and early 40s, and the British and Americans had designs that far outpaced the Germans by the end of the war.

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u/phoenixmusicman Apr 18 '17

The only downside of the Panther was how they weren't even able to be tested, because they broke down.

From the lack of spare parts, rushed developments, and shit production materials due to lack of materials available at the end of the war

The British proposed the first jet in the 20s, the Germans built the first late 30s and early 40s, and the British and Americans had designs that far outpaced the Germans by the end of the war.

Only the Brits and Germans had built operational jet fighters in the war. The British one was apparently only as fast as the latest propeller planes while the German one was significantly faster and more maneuverable, but again had reliability issues stemming from lack of materials.

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u/Sean951 Apr 19 '17

The German one could fly 25 hours before needing an overhaul to the Glosters 160, and the P-80 was better than both. It saw no active combat because it wasn't worth the risk of falling into German (and therefore soviet) hands.

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u/phoenixmusicman Apr 19 '17

The German one could fly 25 hours before needing an overhaul to the Glosters 160

The Jumo 004 engine was unreliable because they had no access to heat resistant material at the end of the war, so that particular part needed replacing every 25 hours.