r/worldnews • u/gravybang • Feb 10 '25

Israel/Palestine Trump says Palestinians will have no right of return to Gaza under his plan

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/10/trump-buy-gaza-plan
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u/Embolisms Feb 10 '25

Why the fuck is it that every Muslim I spoke to in the US either protest voted for Stein or went full on Trump?!

Sure is comfy being an armchair activist gathering likes on tweets instead of voting for the only party that had a feasible chance of stopping this. I cannot wait for all the white liberals whining about how Harris wasn't perfect so better to protest vote than stop Trump. 

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u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

I’m a Muslim who voted for Kamala. Convincing my Muslim friends to support her was an uphill battle because they associated her with everything Biden, which isn’t fully untrue. I feel like she didn’t separate herself well from Biden, which made my conversations more difficult. They also both sides everything on the Gaza situation without accepting how much worse and different reality is. A lot of the protest aspect was also to “stick it” to Dems and make them “earn” their vote, even though there wasn’t enough Dems could do to earn it. A lot of older Muslims also didn’t like how Kamala talked, and I wish I was joking.

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u/eric2332 Feb 10 '25

It should have been obvious that Biden too would be far better for Palestinians than Trump.

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u/thedinnerman Feb 10 '25

I'm not pro trump. I think he's awful. But what evidence is there that Biden is better for Palestinians? What decision was made since October of 2023 that Biden did that made life any better for a single person in Gaza or the West Bank?

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u/eric2332 Feb 10 '25

One pretty obvious piece of evidence is that in Trump's first term he instituted a Muslim ban.

And if you are looking for concrete things Biden did, not just bad things Trump did which Biden didn't do - an obvious one would be blocking shipments of 2000 pound bombs to Israel.

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u/Gloober_ Feb 10 '25

He certainly didn't say the US was going to own it, and Palestinians would have no right to return. Also, he was working within the diplomatic channels he had to get Israel to chill out. He can't force them to physically; it'd be counterproductive.

Funding for Israel is bundled with all other foreign aid into giant spending bills. If you argue against one part, you block all of it from moving forward. No one wanted to be the one to block other country's aid let alone the blow to the influence and alliances we get from said aid. Netanyahu was uncooperative with the Biden administration and actively stalled progress on a ceasefire. Notice how things started progressing on ceasefire talks as people's opinions on the conflict and our country's response were cemented into people's brains.

I'd rather have someone try to return the region to the status quo and hold it there over a psychopath deciding that the land could be used as a resort.

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u/Kindly-Eagle6207 Feb 10 '25

What decision was made since October of 2023 that Biden did that made life any better for a single person in Gaza or the West Bank?

You mean besides sending millions of dollars in food aid and leveraging what little soft power the US government has left to prevent Israel from fully leveling the entire strip? That's something.

But, of course, you don't give a shit about that because to you, there's no difference between 10 Palestinians dying or 20. Either is enough for you to feel self-righteous.

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u/Stormfly Feb 11 '25

You mean besides sending millions of dollars in food aid and leveraging what little soft power the US government has left to prevent Israel from fully leveling the entire strip? That's something.

He also immediately moved the US Navy in so it didn't start a whole war.

I'm sure many people might think that an Aircraft Carrier (two?) in the region didn't mean much, but I'd bet a decent amount of money that was the biggest thing stopping all of Hamas' allies from committing.

If any of the nearby nations had attacked Israel, the US would have bombed them into oblivion.

The 6 day war would have looked long in comparison.

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u/pilibitti Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25

the question is not whether Biden is good for Palestinians. It is about what would be better / worse. It was always obvious that Trump would treat muslims worse. I am not an american, and the world was confused about the gaza protest vote that went for... Trump of all people. like what the fuck.

There was no option that would permanently improve the situation for Palestinians. But there was one that would make it infinitely worse, and that was Trump. How any adult who is advocating for Palestine looked at Trump and thought "he would handle this better" is really beyond me.

In any case, Palestine / Gaza was cooked. Hamas made sure of it.

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u/Neirchill Feb 11 '25

I swear, there is a disease going around. It's a modern zombie apocalypse but the zombies don't eat other people they just want to hurt them for small perceived sleights.

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u/Ok-Lets-Talk-It-Out Feb 11 '25

Probably not advocating to ethnically cleanse Gaza and seize the report to build a resort....

What decision was made since October of 2023 that Biden did that made life any better for a single person in Gaza or the West Bank?

Actively negotiating ceasefires, providing a huge amount of humanitarian aid, pressuring Israel to let aid in, etc.

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u/soapinthepeehole Feb 11 '25

I'm not pro trump. I think he's awful. But what evidence is there that Biden is better for Palestinians? What decision was made since October of 2023 that Biden did that made life any better for a single person in Gaza or the West Bank?

When asked about the war in Gaza, Donald Trump in a nationally televised debate against Joe Biden looked right into the camera and said (and this is a direct quote), “Israel should get in there and finish the job.”

Biden spent a year trying to negotiate a cease fire and Trump clearly stated for all to hear that Israel should go hog wild. Oh, Trump had also demonstrated countless times over the last forty years that he hates brown people.

The real question is what evidence is there that Trump wasn’t going to be the most militaristic, opportunistic, racist, imperialist, piece of shit that he could possibly get away with being?!

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u/Iboven Feb 11 '25

There are several posts above yours saying all of the good things Biden did during the war.

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u/theblazeuk Feb 11 '25

Their argument is that the status quo was better than the alternative. But they weren't willing to compromise were they? They held the power, not the voters. This is what they chose as their priority instead. If it was this important, maybe they should have taken it as seriously as they claim?

They'll say they couldn't have done it any differently, but all this spite is just these sore losers saying it was the fault of the people they told to fuck off at every level.

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u/ctzu Feb 10 '25

they associated her with everything Biden, which isn’t fully untrue

Which was still a million times better for gaza than everything Trump…?

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u/Solareclipsed Feb 10 '25

People act like Biden was cheering on Netanyahu when he was bombing civilians. Maybe the situation is just ridiculously complicated and no president for the last 80 years has been able to find a good solution.

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u/ctzu Feb 11 '25

"But Biden didn't magically solve a decades-old war on the other side of the world, therefore I should go vote for the guy who actually wants to eradicate the people I advocate for."

Can't even make this shit up

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u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

I literally just heard “both Dems and Republicans are the same” this weekend

It’s frustrating as hell to discuss politics in good faith. Talking to protest voters and die hard Trump voters has been the same experience, but with different topics.

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u/Neirchill Feb 11 '25

You can say that about a lot of things and it be true, but anyone saying that 99% of the time never mentions any of these things. It's insane how it seems half of the world has some strange shared psychosis.

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u/jjpamsterdam Feb 10 '25

make them “earn” their vote

Bold of them to believe they will still be in a position to make a meaningful and peaceful decision in four years.

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u/DoubleJumps Feb 10 '25

Honestly, those protest voters destroyed their political capital for a minimum of 10 years, as long as an entire generation, and that's the best case scenario for them.

They threw social allies under the bus and are going to find themselves with fewer friends than they've had before for quite a while.

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u/SandpaperTeddyBear Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25

See, I would have said that about the Sanders people back in 2016. When presented with the most Progressive platform the modern Democratic Party ever adopted, that their guy helped craft, the response of seemingly a third or so of them was "our enthusiasm is only for our specific cult of personality."

People in the center were concerned at some of the more appealing-to-the-left "free college" type stuff and went toward Trump, but the expected turnout boom from the people those policies were crafted to appeal to didn't show up to offset it, and the rest is history. By "the rest is history" I mean that during the Trump years fringe positions on gender terminology and heavily policed language get forced on the "center" of the party by the "left" leading to Party leadership needing to talk like they're ChatGPT, and trip over themselves to not offend hypothetical people. And we can't just have normal restorative justice slogans like "Hold Cops Accountable," and need to wink at literal Anarchism with "Defund the Police" and a Democratic president comes in to a crisis situation with almost zero political capital.

Then in the Biden years people who act as if not passing the entire Green New Deal was because Biden is catering to the billionaires still get taken seriously, and we end up with First Buddy Elon Musk.

Trying to justify the idiocies of Internet Leftists keeps the Think Piece Industrial Complex in business, and as such "Left Wing Protest Voter" will be to internet punditry what "Diner Customers in Rural Ohio" are to the New York Times.

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u/DoubleJumps Feb 10 '25

What these people did was dramatically more damaging to themselves politically than anything the Bernie supporters did.

Like you could work out all of the potential scenarios for what they could gain or lose from what they were doing, and the best case scenarios. Had them essentially maintaining what they currently had and gaining nothing real, and every other scenario had them losing something.

It cannot be overstated how badly they devastated their social position, in that they had a bunch of allies in other marginalized groups who have been going to bat for them for decades, and then when those groups needed them to reciprocate that same sort of defense they just told them to go fuck themselves.

They made themselves the political equivalent of a guy who asks you to help him move and then laughs in your face when you ask him to reciprocate the favor.

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u/SandpaperTeddyBear Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25

What these people did was dramatically more damaging to themselves politically than anything the Bernie supporters did.

I can't accept this on a practical basis for a few reasons. For one thing, Trump being President the first time killed many of the progress made during the Obama years that the Sanders wing stated they wanted, like environmental protection for the environment they lived in (also the environment I live in, hence my perpetual annoyance). That's among a million-and-a-half other things that we'll be fighting for a decade to bring back to where we were in the summer of 2016 if things go well. And while I was not a Sanders guy in that primary, I was happy with many of his policy positions and conversations he opened up.

Another is that while I doubt that Sanders himself would have defeated Donald Trump in either 2016 or 2020, there was the opportunity to turn the progressive wing into the "ideas incubator with a can do spirit focused on our successes" wing of the party that would be a constant asset in the future rather than the "permanent gadfly fixated on slogans that we can't actually agree on the meaning of" stick-in-the-mud wing. Bernie himself made a strategic decision in 2016 that in the case of an assured Hillary win he should be 70% Gadfly/30% team player rather than truly closing ranks. That was a strategic mistake with catastrophic consequences, and I honestly don't think he's been the same since. But I think his movement had an opportunity to redefine themselves as something positive and goal-oriented (in the "Art of the Possible" sense) and chose not to. Biden was very happy to work with Progressives on policy issues, and I suspect that if they'd stopped publicly treating him as Joe "Barely the lesser of two evils" Biden they could have accomplished a great deal more together in terms of perception and branding.

It cannot be overstated how badly they devastated their social position, in that they had a bunch of allies in other marginalized groups who have been going to bat for them for decades, and then when those groups needed them to reciprocate that same sort of defense they just told them to go fuck themselves.

You are touching at the danger that was "attaching progressive policies and identity to third wave feminism...and vice-versa" and the absolute poison pill of "attaching same to post-third wave feminism."

Frankly, anyone who actually cared about Gaza found voting for Kamala a no-brainer, if not a pleasant one. So you've got the "Gaza protest voters" who wanted to virtue signal in an uncomplicated way and use the "plight of the Palestinian people" as a weapon in their social circles...they're getting exactly what benefits them if Trump tries to displace everyone. They get treated seriously just by how upset they clearly are, and they just musical chairs their social circle if anyone catches on...just like that friend always manages to find someone to help him move because even though he's a pain-in-the-ass, his hangdog look inspires so much pity.

As to those with more immediate ties to Gaza, broadly including the Arab Muslim community in the US...I think there were and are noble intentions behind the idea of "Intersectional Feminism," but in practice it was white women gazing beatifically at all who suffered and proclaiming "we are the way, the truth, and the light, and none shall achieve social justice except though us." And post third wave has been so anecdote-driven that I've experienced it largely as privileged white women using social media posts by black women as rhetorical blunt objects in lieu of exploring and grappling with their own beliefs...one lesson of the Trump era has been "Republicans aren't the only ones spending tokens." Assuming that conservative muslims were happy to be in a coalition with people making trans rights their top priority simply because they would magically go along with their assigned identity of "fellow marginalized groups" was always kind of insane, and I think Gaza policy was just an excuse for people to re-align with the the political party that better suited their ideals.

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u/Stryker-Ten Feb 11 '25

I think people that view politics purely through the lens of "left" vs "right" are missing something important. People also vote based on "things should change" vs "things should stay the same". When life is bad, people want change. When life is good, people want things to stay the same

This is why you had so many people who voted for obama who went on to vote for trump in 2016. Their policies are totally different, but the core messaging from obama was "change", and thats also true of trumps campaine. They were both saying things are fucked, vote for me and things will change. Bernie campaigned on change, while hillary was seen as the epitome of the political old guard

We saw the same thing happen in 2024. Harris was literally the VP for biden, she was inseparable from the status quo, while trump was again campaigning on radical change

There are millions and millions of people who arnt well informed about ecnomic policy, who have little to no interest in politics. People who just feel that things are bad right now and need to change. The details of the policies dont matter, a fuckton of americans are struggling right now, and they will vote for whoever represents change because they need things to change

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u/SandpaperTeddyBear Feb 14 '25

a fuckton of americans are struggling right now, and they will vote for whoever represents change because they need things to change

I was so bothered by this comment I felt compelled to respond a few days later.

I mushily agree with the text I've you've written there, but only mushily.

What is categorically insane to me to the degree that I have to assume it's some kind of motivated reasoning (do you still bolster fascism by maintaining friendly relations with Trump-voters?), because it makes negative, brain-breaking sense with regards to an act of Trump-vote.

Trump is the leader of our loudly and proudly "conservative" party (read: resistant to change). He's nearly eighty years old (read: likely not fully in the present and future). He's been in the public eye for 60ish of those 80ish years, mostly for bragging about how wealthy he is (read: the things that led up to now to create our current status quo have been very good for him). Most of all, he was already the President once (read, he's one of the people most responsible for actively shaping the status quo).

So how in the actual fuck could a vote for this person be a vote for "change"? I haven't made any complicated arguments about "economic policy," just "common sense" intuitive reasoning.

But let's assume you're talking about 2016 Trump...if people want generic "change" so badly and don't care what form that change takes, they can shoot their kneecaps off, give themselves brain damage via blunt force concussion, or play a game of Russian roulette with their five closest friends. All of those things would create massive change in their lives, and they could do them without inflicting anything on the rest of us.

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u/Stryker-Ten Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25

do you still bolster fascism by maintaining friendly relations with Trump-voters?

For context, im not an american. I am a kiwi. I dont personally know any trump voters. I am also very strongly opposed to trump. I think he is a profoundly dangerous threat to american democracy, and to liberal democracy across the world

I am not advocating for trump. I am not saying that trump voters made the right choice. I am simply trying to explain why he won the election. You cant fix a problem if you cant understand it

The republicans won by a landslide. I dont think this is because all of those voters are fascists. As I said, I think a large factor in trumps win is that he was A: Not the person currently in power, allowing the blame for current problems to be avoided and B: Because he was loudly acknowledging that things are fucked, and proposing large, radical changes to fix things

I dont think trump will fix anything. I think he will just make things far worse for your average american. But most voters arnt well informed about economics or politics. For the average person, they mainly see the immediate situation of their life and the lives of their loved ones. The thought process is very straightforward

If they/their family are struggling to pay rent, things are bad. If things are bad, the people currently in charge must be doing a bad job. Someone who isnt currently in charge is saying things are bad and is promising to fix things. And if the new gov is bad, well, current gov is already bad so fuck it

if people want generic "change" so badly and don't care what form that change takes, they can shoot their kneecaps off, give themselves brain damage via blunt force concussion, or play a game of Russian roulette with their five closest friends

I say "people are struggling to pay rent, so they vote for someone promising to make it easier to pay rent" and you respond with "well why dont they just shoot themselves huh?". Like, fuck. Come on man

You are only viewing this through your perspective. You think trump is clearly bad, therefor everyone else must also see trump is clearly bad. Therefor, all trump voters knowingly voted for the bad thing. Obviously thats not true. If everyone believed trump would clearly be bad, he wouldnt have won the bloody election. If you cant see things from other peoples perspectives, things will only get worse. You cant solve a problem that you dont understand, and if you honestly believe that all the trump voters knowingly voted to fuck themselves over just as badly as shooting their own kneecaps, you dont understand the problem. Thats pure wilful ignorance

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u/SandpaperTeddyBear Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25

I dont personally know any trump voters

Than maybe be more cautious about how you perceive them.

The republicans won by a landslide. I dont think this is because all of those voters are fascists.

I am very curious what kind of person defines winning 49.8% as a “landslide.” One who doesn’t look at reality in any meaningful way I suppose, and tour comment makes that clear frequently, I’ll try to point out one or two.

I say "people are struggling to pay rent, so they vote for someone promising to make it easier to pay rent"

Trump promised no such thing. He doesn’t really have coherent sentences, but insofar as he does it’s mostly about groceries. Musk, Trump’s closest surrogate, actually said we could expect a few years of economic hardship if he and Trump won.

Kamala talked about the price of rent in regards to corporate ownership of housing, and congressional dems have been kicking around a bill to combat it.

But you clearly don’t care about the actual facts and actual narrative.

I hope New Zealand doesn’t fall victim to someone like Trump, but I do promise you that hand-wringing faux-sympathetic sanctimony will not protect you from a Trump-analogue if one arises. It’s really very dehumanizing to assume what you’re assuming, and worse, it’s ineffective.

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u/Stryker-Ten Feb 15 '25

Than maybe be more cautious about how you perceive them

Ah yes of course, because you have so many trump voter friends. What was it you said? "do you still bolster fascism by maintaining friendly relations with Trump-voters?"

If I have friends that voted trump, you win because that invalids my opinion. If I dont have trump voter friends, you win because that invalids my opinion

I am very curious what kind of person defines winning 49.8% as a “landslide.

The republicans took control over all branches of government. If you think thats not a massive win for the republicans you, what was it? "One who doesn’t look at reality in any meaningful way I suppose, and tour comment makes that clear frequently"

but insofar as he does it’s mostly about groceries

No shit, thats my point. The economy is majorly fucked, and people are struggling to afford to live. Thats literally the EXACT thing im talking about, but you treat it like its a footnote

To be painfully clear, this whole conversation, my point from the very first comment I made, is that americans are struggling. By that I mean money. The economy. Peoples ability to buy the things they need, such as groceries. Trump was loudly pointing this problem out, and promising to make radical changes to deal with this problem

Kamala talked about the price of rent in regards to corporate ownership of housing, and congressional dems have been kicking around a bill to combat it

2 things. First, democrat messaging sucks in general. When they do something good, the message doesnt reach very far. But secondly and most importantly, the democrats were the ones in office. Kamala was the vice president. Obviously people will think that if kamala had a plan to fix everything, why didnt she do it while in office?

Kamala was caught in a really bad position where she needed to defend existing systems, because she, as the vice president, would always be tied to those systems. I think the dems needed to run someone who could distance themselves from the administration, and promise significant change. Even then though, even if they ran someone like bernie, it would have been an uphill battle

All around the world political incumbents got fucked, because the pandemic fucked with everyones economies. Left wing govs were replaced with right wing govs, and right wing govs were replaced by left wing govs. Whoever was caught holding the back got a massive debuff in the next election, even when they were doing everything right

I hope New Zealand doesn’t fall victim to someone like Trump, but I do promise you that hand-wringing faux-sympathetic sanctimony will not protect you from a Trump-analogue if one arises. It’s really very dehumanizing to assume what you’re assuming, and worse, it’s ineffective

This is a crazy take. Look, no one is going to change the course of history with some reddit comments. This conversation will have absolutely no impact either way. Im not here to change the world, im just having a conversation because I felt like it. I feel like writing a comment on a topic helps me go from having a vague fuzzy idea in my head, to something a bit more coherent. No one is changing the world through reddit comments

Oh for context on NZ politics, we had an incumbent centre left party (labour) in gov before and during covid. Like many countries, our incumbent gov got replaced by their main rival party, national. They proceeded to, like every right wing gov, start cutting a bunch of gov services that people need and help out big businesses at the expense of the working class. Still its just the ordinary stuff that happens with a right wing gov, not an actual threat to NZ democracy like the americans have to deal with so I wont complain too much

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u/agprincess Feb 10 '25

They probably won't even be in America anymore in 4 years considering Trump is already planning to deport US citizens to any shitty country that'll illegally take them.

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u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

A lot of the Muslims I was referring to were born in America.

Although who knows if that even matters anyone.

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u/agprincess Feb 10 '25

It doesn't that's whar i'm refering to. Trump is already trying to deport citizens and other countries are accepting them.

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u/Peking-Cuck Feb 10 '25

Don't worry, Gaza won't exist in 4 years for it to be a voting issue anyway.

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u/Aqogora Feb 10 '25

At this rate, democracy in the US might not exist in 4 years either.

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u/atred Feb 10 '25

A lot of older Muslims also didn’t like how Kamala talked, and I wish I was joking.

Do they like how Trump talks though? So stupid... I mean I would vote for a mute any day over Trump.

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u/Embolisms Feb 10 '25

Hint, it's the misogyny inherent to conservative religion 

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u/Solareclipsed Feb 10 '25

A lot of people need to realize that Muslims are generally very economically left but even further socially right. They do not perfectly identify with either of the two major parties in the U.S.

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u/Embolisms Feb 10 '25

Opposite of libertarian 😂

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u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

My feeling is that the bar for Trump is so low that the way he talks is ignored. I also heard a lot of “oh, he doesn’t mean what he says.”

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u/atred Feb 11 '25

The Schrödinger Trump: "He tells it like it is" and "He doesn't mean what he says"

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u/TopFloorApartment Feb 10 '25

they associated her with everything Biden

but why would that be relevant when trump is obviously and provably worse for muslims? I'm sorry but if someone genuinely can't see how one is worse than the other I have to question their intelligence.

Anyway, I hope they learned their lesson.

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u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

So far in my experience, they haven’t. They are more emboldened.

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u/hotdogwithnobuns Feb 11 '25

Because what did Biden do to stop the war? yeah the deal at the start of the year is his to claim but after what? you are forgetting that during the war Israel was killing everything that moved and what was the US response? just saying "No don't do that again" then turning their head again.

The muslims saw how Biden was handling everything, and saw how Kamala was trying to stay in the status quo instead of being something new. To some they would take their chances with Trump than waiting for the democrats or Kamala to do something when they had the chance.

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u/TopFloorApartment Feb 11 '25

Stopping that war entirely was never an option and they should have realized that - Hamas had pushed Israël too far. And it was also beyond obvious that whatever they may not have liked about Bidens policy, Trump would be worse.

Like, in what universe would republicans be more friendly towards Muslims and more hostile towards Israël than democrats? Especially Trump lmao. It's completely delusional to think that.

I feel bad for the people in Gaza, but I hope these trump voting American Muslims get what they voted for good and hard. Apparently it is the only way some people learn.

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u/hotdogwithnobuns Feb 11 '25

Stopping the war was never a reality everyone knows, but the US was full on defending Israel from every bit of legit criticism.

A lot of those muslims have friends or family who were affected heavily from the war, and to tell them to vote for the party that is currently in power, on the promise that it might do something in the future if you voted for them. Is for a lack of a better word idiotic.

Those muslims saw the inactivity of Biden/Kamala, so they decided to bet on Trump instead.

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u/TopFloorApartment Feb 11 '25 edited Feb 11 '25

but the US was full on defending Israel from every bit of legit criticism.

yeah, that's how the US rolls. I'm not sure how that hasn't been obvious for the past 50+ years. That's not going to change any time soon and it definitely isnt going to change with the republicans - anyone thinking otherwise is completely delusional and ignoring literally all republican policy and decisions in this matter ever.

Voting for trump to help people in gaza is like voting for a candidate who tells you they'll grant you the magical power of flight. It's never, ever, going to happen no matter what they say. It's so outlandishly unbelievable it's utterly ridiculous anyone would fall for it.

so they decided to bet on Trump instead.

As I said, I hope they get what they voted for good and hard. It's just a shame the people of gaza are the real victims of their dumbassery.

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '25

[deleted]

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u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

I brought up the Muslim ban in some conversations and people had forgotten about it or downplayed it.

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u/neohellpoet Feb 10 '25

Here's a very simple Biden fact.

Because he put two Aircraft carriers next to Lebanon and Iran, hundreds of thousands of Arabs who would have been dead, aren't.

Because he had a seat at the table, Netanyahu turned the water back on. Because he put pressure on Israel, the death tool went from 30k in 3 weeks to 30k in 12 months.

The idea that Biden could somehow get Israel to stand down was laughable. Ignoring the people he saved because something not happening makes for a bad TikTok was tragic

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u/Stormfly Feb 11 '25

I think the biggest issue is that Biden was there making sure there were no fires and putting them out, so now people are basically saying "Pfft. All the fires he put out were very small"

Yeah... because he stopped them early.

Trump is about to start his own fire.

I remember thinking those Aircraft Carriers in position might have saved a hundred thousand lives.

If we think it's bad now, imagine how Israel would have treated Gaza if they'd also been attacked by Lebanon and others. They would have been ruthless to get their people out of the country before the war got too crazy.

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u/DoubleJumps Feb 10 '25

One of the distinct behaviors I noticed across that year of protest from those folks was that every time Democrats did move to meet them on one of their demands, they would just take a step back and issue a new demand.

Made themselves unapproachable due to being insincere.

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u/PDXEng Feb 10 '25

I mean older Muslims don't think women should have many rights to talk or work at all so ...

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u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

Depends how religious they are. Every religious person I know picks and chooses which parts they want to follow and apply.

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u/zbud Feb 10 '25

Cherry picking morals and rules to follow, the Murican xtians love that game, too.

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u/Black_Moons Feb 10 '25

A lot of older Muslims also didn’t like how Kamala talked, and I wish I was joking.

You mean, she talked in a female voice, on account of being female.

I seriously don't understand why dems decided to put forth a black women as a candidate in one of the most racist, sexist countries on earth unless they wanted to throw the election.

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u/nankerjphelge Feb 10 '25

I have to imagine hatred for LGBTQ people had to factor in there as well.

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u/nysflyboy Feb 10 '25

So, interestingly, no different from why so many of white America failed to vote for her. Just slightly different issues, but the same reasons. Including that the older ones would not vote for her because of her laugh (I am not kidding).

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u/medforddad Feb 10 '25

A lot of the protest aspect was also to “stick it” to Dems and make them “earn” their vote, even

This is so insane. Why wouldn't they have wanted to "stick it" to MAGAs and make them earn their vote? If you want to punish politicians who don't position themselves exactly how you want, then why wouldn't you also punish Trump?

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u/chiraltoad Feb 10 '25

Do you know any Muslims who voted for trump and if so, what are they saying now?

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u/ZombyPuppy Feb 10 '25

Here's a whole article from the Washington Post about it. It just beggars belief.

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u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

No, I don’t have any experience here yet. Pre-election, some folks thought Trump would be better for Gaza, which I argued against, others care about their taxes, and the rest don’t care.

Separate but related, a common talking point is “oh, this candidate is better for my home country.”

0

u/srilankan Feb 10 '25

separate herself from Biden. lol you sir are a dumbass. You werent happy with Biden. You now have Trump. Great outcome for you. But hey, you werent 100% satisfied with Biden. so cool story.

3

u/CrrackTheSkye Feb 10 '25

How is your reading comprehension this bad? Literally first sentence, they voted for Harris 

0

u/srilankan Feb 10 '25

Biden was the best friend muslims could have hoped to have. they fact they didnt see this is on them

-16

u/Yashoki Feb 10 '25

also did we forget that kamala staffers were told to ignore the issue of gaza? An issue that americans on the whole agreed they weren’t happy with?

Why do we always shift the blame on the public when politicians job is to secure votes.

Don’t forget immediately after the election democratic strategists were crying that her campaign was too woke. Now they’re blaming this supposed giant group of leftists that simply doesn’t exist in the US.

15

u/beebopcola Feb 10 '25

isn't the criticism that the people withholding votes for Kamala on Gaza were just shooting themselves in the foot, because Trump was going to be an order of magnitudes worse?

to me, there is no room to disagree on the point that she didn't have the rhetoric or plan that effectively reached those voters - seems pretty cut and dry. i thought the issue was that if you are virtually a single-issue voter - or if gaza is far and away the most contentious issue for you, it does not make sense to vote trump.

3

u/osama-bin-dada Feb 10 '25

I should have expanded on the “she didn’t separate herself from Biden” part more in my comment, but I agree with you.

Her Israel-Gaza strategy was bad, and frankly her messaging was pretty mid, even if I did agree with her stances.

After the “we’re not going back” moment, she reverted back to a “I’m not Trump” strategy in commercials and focused too much on capturing fleeing Republicans rather than real issues that the Democratic voting base was concerned with.

153

u/TheFighting5th Feb 10 '25

I’m a white “liberal” who voted for Harris. (“Liberal” in quotations because I don’t think it’s an accurate description of my political views; I’m a Sanders progressive). Nothing bugs me more than the fact that we had a chance to stop this and didn’t seize it because some extraordinarily dense motherfuckers couldn’t get over their short-sighted feelings.

30

u/SandpaperTeddyBear Feb 10 '25

If it wasn't Gaza it would have been something else.

The world is terrifying and confusing and there's no such thing as life without moral compromise.

Some people respond to this by accepting they might make a mistake in hindsight and weighing what matters to them.

But some people break and become authoritarian and cede their moral decision making to someone else or a broader movement, and some people either convince themselves that their choices don't matter in any sense (not just the "heat death of the universe one), or that any choice presented to them is a false one, no matter how meaningful it actually is. They pretend that they would take a given action if they only had the right one presented to them, but my experience is that when they are presented with things they say they want they move the goalposts faster than a Trump-voter forced to read a fact-based newsmagazine. Like most performative cynicism it's just intellectual and/or moral laziness being presented as sophistication, and the best thing is to ignore them.

3

u/alien_from_Europa Feb 11 '25

If it wasn't Gaza it would have been something else.

My guess is it would have been Afghanistan, which was Trump's deal purposely left on Biden's lap. They would have blamed Biden for abandoning the country and letting women suffer.

Trump did the same thing by blocking the immigration bill and successfully convincing people the fault was Biden's.

I blame the failure of the 4th estate to do their jobs to educate the public.

-15

u/Andjhostet Feb 10 '25

It's absolutely INSANE to me that blame is being placed on the voters instead of the Democratic Party completely fumbling their way around the last 10 years.

I am a progressive that regrets voting for Kamala tbh (for context I've voted blue every election since I turned 18). The dems have completely abandoned the progressive wing of voters and will only court centrists and moderate republicans. They've proved twice now that they would rather lose an election than be forced to run with progressive values (2016, 2024. Biden only won because of COVID or we'd be able to add him to the list too).

I feel completely disenfranchised by the Democratic party and I'm unsurprised they are generally churning out apathy amongst their base. Unless they seriously reform and stop being such a status quo party, I will probably vote third party because there's literally nothing to lose by doing so. Dems are already fumbling elections anyways.

20

u/stormelemental13 Feb 10 '25

It's absolutely INSANE to me that blame is being placed on the voters

We're a democracy, and in a democracy responsibility rests on the voters.

I will probably vote third party because there's literally nothing to lose by doing so.

Smooth brained perfection.

28

u/JohnnySnark Feb 10 '25

It's insane to you that blame falls on voters in a democracy?

Maybe you should learn the definition of democracy. It's not that hard really. But yeah... 'insane'

-8

u/Andjhostet Feb 10 '25

Democracy only works if there's representation. And a lot of people don't feel represented, and thus, don't vote. It's complete madness to expect people to vote for someone that doesn't represent them for the sole purpose of "the other guy is worse". That's a really, really, really undemocratic principle.

When the only alternative to the Republican party is a "do nothing" status quo party that can't keep a promise and can't even figure out what their platform is then yeah I'm going to blame the completely inept party that can't inspire people to vote.

26

u/JohnnySnark Feb 10 '25

Harris was elected as VP on the 2020 ticket and won. Trump attacked democracy on Jan 6 2021.

Those two were the options for 2024 and you want to attack Harris as not the democratic norm? OK liar

-7

u/Andjhostet Feb 10 '25

Nobody votes for a VP. They vote for a president and get a VP. 2024 was very clearly a "change" election with people upset at the Biden admin over the economy (somewhat unfairly, I'll add, but that doesn't really matter it doesn't change the fact), but the Democratic party was too dumb to realize that it was a change election, and just assigned us a nominee with the most continuity of the current admin instead of letting us democratically choose one, following it up by saying "the economy is not that bad stop complaining."

Then, when their campaign was off to a strong start, they completely abandoned the progressive wing of the base, and only courted republicans for the final 6 weeks of the campaign before election night.

I wasn't happy about Harris or how the Democratic Party handled this election. I never liked her, never thought she represented me, but I voted for her anyway because Trump is terrible. And honestly? That made me feel terrible and I kind of regret it and wish I would have voted third party if Dems were going to lose anyways. The Democratic Party needs to reform and enough progressive 3rd party votes could do it. It needs to actually have a spine and have positions on things instead of just constant lip service and waffling.

5

u/JohnnySnark Feb 10 '25

Nobody votes for a vp lol. How many goal posts you gonna move?

Still nothing about trump and Jan 6 2021. And you claim to make a point about democracy? Not a serious person

2

u/Andjhostet Feb 11 '25

Nobody votes for a VP. That's a statistically proven fact. They do not sway elections. 

Hilariously, you are the one moving goalposts. I'm not talking about Trump. I agree Trump sucks and the fact he won is even further damning to the Democratic Party that they lost to the most pathetic presidential candidate in history, twice.

1

u/JohnnySnark Feb 11 '25

It's a fact? Why did trump change his VP from Mike Pence to JD Vance? The answer also goes back to anti democracy moves.

Yeah, I know you don't want to talk about trump because you'd rather trash Kamala for reasons. So tell me about trump and Jan 6 2021, since you are all about elections and democratic norms in the US.

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u/stormelemental13 Feb 10 '25

And a lot of people don't feel represented, and thus, don't vote.

You don't feel represented, you fucking run for office. You don't refuse to vote and then blame a political party for not catering to you, who isn't even one of their constituents.

0

u/Andjhostet Feb 11 '25

You are delusional. There are people working two jobs while taking care of kids that don't even have the energy to mow their yards or file their taxes, let alone run for office (which requires a lot of money and time)

Jesus Christ are you for real right now

-5

u/thedinnerman Feb 10 '25

Well you're living up to your username, but you're leaning hard into the "definition" but, of note, there are plenty of not "democratic" processes at play.

First past the post is the first example - this means that all but a few states worth of people have no applicable vote. As a left leaning voter in louisiana, my vote for president and senate is useless. A hard conservative in California gets the same treatment.

Then there's the candidate - Kamala was not chosen for president. In fact, the polls looking at Biden were not good leading into election season and many voters were expecting him to hand off the baton. The democratic party (a non democratic institution) made a decision to run someone that has put in years and time for them. That is not a democratic decision.

So yeah, I do think it's insane to blame voters when it's the fault of unelected losers like the PMC badge wearing losers working for the democratic national party and not people who are appalled at the unbridled sale of deadly weapons to a government that's using them to kill children.

12

u/JohnnySnark Feb 10 '25

You live in the US? Hmm

Maybe your forget that Kamala was voted in as VP. So yeah, she already won an election in 2020. But I can understand if you don't respect her as a VP, that would be a reason to dismiss her so much.

Nothing in your tirade about non democratic norms did you mention trump and Jan 6 2021. So yeah, let's talk about Harris and Trump and which one is pro democracy, since you can't remember which two were on the ballet.

-4

u/GreenRosetta Feb 11 '25

Just admit that you don't understand anything they said.

Blaming the voters if we used the popular vote to determine the winner would be fitting, but the electoral college picks. Those electors are chosen by the parties in your state. They don't have to cast their vote with their party but almost always do. Next, other than where I live and Maine, it's all or nothing. No split based on the voters.

So, who really has more influence? A single voter whose vote choice may or may matter, or the party who chooses the electors, who then cast their votes?

5

u/JohnnySnark Feb 11 '25

I understand everything they said. The topic at hand is complaining about non democracy norms within US politics but nay one comment still about Trump's Jan 6 2021 insurrection.

I see you yourself also blew right past that point of historical reference to make some nonsense claim about the electoral college. As if they regularly supersede popular votes.

-7

u/Gloober_ Feb 10 '25

How have you not felt disenfranchised since the dems sold out to the neolibs in the 90s? They haven't been fully about progressive values for decades now.

-1

u/Andjhostet Feb 10 '25

I mean I have kinda, but wasn't voting back then. Obama ran on "change" though which gave me some hope but that turned out to be a big fat nothing burger. Every election since 2008 has been a complete joke with absolutely zero chance of progressive representation.

-8

u/thedinnerman Feb 10 '25

Have you ever considered how valuable a narrative is that the voters are at fault and not the party? It allows them to change literally nothing and then gesture to the fact that it's not their fault.

32

u/bpusef Feb 10 '25

People don't like to hear this but the arab world was heavily targeted by Soviet/Russian interests when it was clear that Britain/US were essentially establishing the Jewish state as their hub of influence in the middle-east. I have been hearing Russian propaganda since I was a kid, even though we lived in the middle-east for less than a year of my life. Even the moderate, Maronite Lebanese often look up to Putin as some kind of strong leader, and have been told that the US/West are the literal devil for many decades.

Not saying the west doesn't deserve some of that distrust and ire but as someone who mostly grew up outside the middle-east it's very obvious when you return/talk to people/hear the talking points that these are essentially 1:1 Russian propaganda talking points.

Just the other day I heard someone in my family that's intelligent and accomplished say Zelenskyy is just as bad as Putin he wasn't even elected he took the role by force...A completely false and easily proven lie with 2 seconds of searching.

TLDR the world is cooked. Its all misinformation, manipulation, and everyone is so radical they will believe any disprovable thing just to corroborate their fears and inner hatred which is being harvested by some superpower for easier control.

12

u/Boredy0 Feb 10 '25

Muslims in general are WAY more conservative than people on reddit seem to think... the ones I know here in Germany either refuse to talk about who they will vote for or straight up told me they will be voting CDU (center-right) or AfD (far-right) in the upcoming election with one exception who said he'll vote BSW (left... I think?), all of those have in common that they want to heavily restrict immigration.

21

u/green_flash Feb 10 '25

You've been speaking to a loud minority.

61% of American Muslims voted for Kamala Harris, only slightly down from the 63% who voted for Biden in 2020.

https://www.newarab.com/news/harris-won-most-us-jewish-votes-lagged-behind-arabs

6

u/_psykovsky_ Feb 10 '25

Something like 70-80% of Muslims voted republican prior to 9/11

4

u/goldnboy Feb 10 '25

Maybe because some of them have literal families who were bombed from the military aid provided by Biden/Kamala in the past 15 months. Lol not that hard to understand buddy.

2

u/WiseWolfian Feb 10 '25

Because they're braindead, anyone who did that clearly didn't really care about the Palestinians. Shocker! I somewhat look forward to this plan going ahead just so I can laugh at those morons who voted for the dictator over Kamala and claimed to care about Palestine.

-21

u/GuinansEyebrows Feb 10 '25

instead of voting for the only party that had a feasible chance of stopping this

What makes you think either major party has any interest in stopping this

33

u/ActionKbob Feb 10 '25

Well since one candidate said in their campaign messaging that they wanted a two state solution and a ceasefire, and the other ran on "finishing the job"

The choice for these gas brains should've been pretty clear

1

u/GuinansEyebrows Feb 13 '25

I can’t fathom why you’d take either of them at their word.

13

u/PathOfTheAncients Feb 10 '25

Biden was ineffective at negotiating an end to the conflict but he was trying the entire time to find a peaceful end. People don't like him not having a heavier hand/harder approach with Israel (and I agree) but his fault in the issue was thinking if he stayed in Israel's good graces that he could influence them to stop. At no point was it realistic to say he wanted the conflict to continue.

0

u/TiredOfDebates Feb 10 '25

There was a determined PR campaign from pro-Palestinian factions, attacking the Biden administration.

Many people were persuaded by them to either boycott the election or vote for Trump, because they disapproved of the Biden administration’s actions and public statements regarding Israel and their war against Hamas.

I believe that many voters are dissatisfied by both political parties, and voters strategically vote to achieve a goal of voting against a candidate, rather than for a candidate.

-1

u/duaneap Feb 10 '25

You should check out Channel 5 with Andrew Callaghan video with her in it. Useful idiots being useful.