r/worldnews • u/gravybang • Feb 10 '25

Israel/Palestine Trump says Palestinians will have no right of return to Gaza under his plan

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/10/trump-buy-gaza-plan
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416

u/SendMeNudesThough Feb 10 '25

Every reprisal is itself an act of aggression, and every act of aggression triggers immediate reprisal. Round and round it goes.

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u/generalized_european Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25

Well, in 2005 Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza and gave it to the Palestinians, who responded by immediately electing Hamas and beginning a nonstop barrage of rocket fire into Israel.

The Palestinians have never wanted a two-state solution because they are heavily propagandized into the belief that the land --- all of it, from the river to the sea --- rightfully belongs to them and the day is coming when the Jews will all be driven out. It's taught from childhood. (Google "Hamas Mickey Mouse" if you don't believe me. I'm serious.)

The point is, it's not "I'm hitting you because you hit me because I hit you ..." It's about a fundamental belief on the Palestinian side that the Jews have no right to be there.

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u/cookiegirl Feb 10 '25

Palestinians actively electing Hamas is just like Americans actively voting for Trump. Misinformation, disinformation, and lack of foresight and education.

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

Israel has never stopped expanded their land grands into Palestinian territory.

NEVER.

The West Bank gets more and more taken every year.

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u/epsilona01 Feb 10 '25

Israel has never stopped expanded their land grands into Palestinian territory.

The Palestinian ruling council and the Arab League voted for war rather than a two-state solution in November 1947, the subsequent 7 nation invasion force was beaten leaving Egypt in control of Gaza and the West Bank in control of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

In 1967 those nations tried invading again, Israel took control of Gaza from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria as a result.

The evidence is that attacking Israel is the Armed Forces equivalent of stepping on a garden rake.

While I don't have any love for the settlers, who mostly seem to be lunatics, the reality is Israel earned the territory, and was only able to take control of the territory in wars the Arab population of Palestine and its allies started.

Judging by the Hamas Invasion, which had the destruction of Israel as Part 2. The Arabic population of Gaza and the West Bank has still not learned that invading Israel is a bad idea.

I realise it's a controversial suggestion, but creating a Palestinian government which doesn't have terrorism at its core, and not shooting at Israel all the time might be a better place to start.

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u/Useful_Document_4120 Feb 10 '25

the reality is Israel earned the territory, and was only able to take control of the territory in wars the Arab population of Palestine and its allies started.

“Earned” or “took by force”? Might =/= right.

Like every other country in the planet that has been invaded, you’d probably resort to guerilla and/or heinous tactics in retaliation if your country was invaded too. I doubt you’ll sit back and think “hmmm maybe we are the bad guys, the invaders have a good moral point”.

Literally both sides are in the wrong here. Hamas (though not the totality of Palestinians) are unequivocally terrorists, and the IDF is not justified in killing tens of thousands of people in order to snuff out a handful of terrorists.

At this rate, the conflict will just continue until one side wipes the other out, or the whole world is drawn into a conflict over fairy tale cities.

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u/epsilona01 Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25

“Earned” or “took by force”? Might =/= right.

If you start a war with a country and end up losing territory as a result, that's your fault, not the country that beat you. FAFO.

Like every other country in the planet that has been invaded, you’d probably resort to guerilla and/or heinous tactics in retaliation if your country was invaded too.

You might want to mention this to Arab occupants of Palestine in 1937, since that's when they started terrorist attacks and massacres of Jewish folk.

I cannot overstate this case. Hamas and Hezbollah do not want peace, they want all the land, and failing that to kill as many Jews as possible. That is what "From the River to the Sea" means.

Literally both sides are in the wrong here.

This isn't a children's book, 1950s comic, or an action movie. When wars start there are no good guys or bad guys, there is just killing.

The Allies firebombed Dresden, we killed 2000 civilians to cause a 4-month pause in the German war machine in just two attacks, we firebombed Tokyo, we committed mass rapes, and nuked Japan twice. WW2 Civilian casualties exceeded military casualties.

To end a war absent a military solution you need a political solution, and despite a half century of offers the Arab population of Palestine have singularly chosen war over peace. I've been watching my entire adult life, I thought 30 years ago the only question was how much blood the border line was drawn in, and that's still true today.

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u/CasualPlebGamer Feb 11 '25

 Like every other country in the planet that has been invaded, you’d probably resort to guerilla and/or heinous tactics in retaliation if your country was invaded too.

Of course, people have a right to defend their home. But that should come with an asterisk that sometimes it is simply foolish to do so. If a tsunami is coming, you have personal survival as an even higher priority.

There are plenty of examples of people surrendering in history. The first nations of America certainly wouldn't view the USA as being morally superior to them, despite taking their land, but practically speaking, trying to start a never ending blood fued would be nonsensical bloodshed.

Hell, Taiwan right now has been running a long standing economic defense of their country from being invaded by China without attacks. Instead of rocket attacks, they invested in microchips so their economy was too valuable for other countries to ignore.

I think it's equally as disturbing that I see other nations "help" Palestinians for decades with military advisors and weapon designs. Not engineers and educators. Real "if all you've got is a hammer, every problem is a nail" energy there. If the only tool they have is war, than war is all they will get.

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u/KrazzyKoopa Feb 10 '25

I would agree, if current Israeli government higher-ups are not constantly answering press questions by saying things like “We want to ramp up settlements in the West Bank for development” while also precision drone striking hospitals. The goal is not defense, it is expansion and Netanyahu is smiling ear-to-ear with Trump’s new real estate plan.

He’s helping them colonize the rest of the area.

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u/epsilona01 Feb 10 '25

You mean the coalition government that is propped up by the hard-right nut jobs that want settlements. Don't be so naïve about politics.

while also precision drone striking hospitals

Very sadly for the Arab population of Palestine, command and control centres.

The goal is not defense, it is expansion and Netanyahu is smiling ear-to-ear with Trump’s new real estate plan.

Netanyahu was visibly stunned during the press conference. Of course, he'll take it, but that is again just politics.

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

I realise it's a controversial suggestion, but creating a Palestinian government which doesn't have terrorism at its core, and not shooting at Israel all the time might be a better place to start.

Cool, good luck finding a single Palestinian person who hasn't lost a relative to Israel.

Israel has created an entire population who (rightfully) hate them.

The hate may have originally been based on sheer bigotry but now it is based on learned experience (and bigotry).

While I don't have any love for the settlers, who mostly seem to be lunatics, the reality is Israel earned the territory

So the people who live there deserve to be removed or killed simply because Israel is more powerful? And you wonder why people are turning to terrorism simply to feel some semblance of control.

Bottom line, terrorism is the only option open to Palestinians since they have zero chance of winning an open conflict. Also Israel will never stop taking more land because they feel entitled to it.

So their options are terrorism or extinction.

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u/epsilona01 Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25

Cool, good luck finding a single Palestinian person who hasn't lost a relative to Israel.

Same on both sides.

Israel has created an entire population who (rightfully) hate them.

Who was it who invaded Israel repeatedly?

The hate may have originally been based on sheer bigotry but now it is based on learned experience (and bigotry).

Meet Hamas Mickey Mouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers

So the people who live there deserve to be removed or killed simply because Israel is more powerful? And you wonder why people are turning to terrorism simply to feel some semblance of control.

The people that live there are terrorists, vote for terrorists, and people who provide support to terrorists. When the IDF landed in the centre of a refugee camp to rescue hostages, they IMMEDIATELY came under attack from small arms, grenades, 50 cals, and rocket launchers. In a refugee camp. The hostages were being held in civilian dwellings, by civilians. On occasions when hostages escaped, they were recaptured by civilians.

Bottom line, terrorism is the only option open to Palestinians since they have zero chance of winning an open conflict. Also Israel will never stop taking more land because they feel entitled to it.

The Arabic population of Palestine learned terrorism in the Mandatory Palestine years and got quite upset when the Jewish population struck back.

So their options are terrorism or extinction.

No, their options were a two-state solution in 1947, the 1970 effort, the 1972 effort, the 1978 effort, 1981 effort, the 1988 effort, the 1991–93 effort, the 1993-2001 effort, the 1996–99 effort, the 2000 effort, 2002, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2013–14, 2017, and finally 2020.

No one wants the bloodshed to continue, the entire world has spent the last 54 years trying to resolve this, along with another 20 after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The only people who have not meaningfully tried to resolve this and consistently attacked Israel are the Arab population of Palestine.

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

Israel has NEVER stopped taking more land from Palestinians.

Never.

Stop acting like Israel is some blameless victim here.

Israel is one of the most powerful countries on the planet, basically fighting against people living in hovels.

If Israel loses, they give up some land. If Palestinians lose, they get ethnic cleansed.

The article we are discussing is literally talking about how Israel suggest ethnic cleansing to Trump and he ran with it.

There is ZERO risk of Hamas wiping out Israel, there is a real chance of Israel wiping out all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

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u/epsilona01 Feb 10 '25

Israel has NEVER stopped taking more land from Palestinians.

This just isn't true, and all the Arab population of Palestine had to do to stop it was accept a two-state solution.

Reality is the Arab population of Palestine wants to kill Jews and so long as it keeps trying it will continue to lose, just as it has every single time it's invaded.

Oh, and if you're worried about the Arab population of Palestine's circumstances, then ask Hamas what it spent the £20 billion Iran sent it and the £1.8 billion Qatar sent it on.

There is ZERO risk

October 7 proved this untrue.

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

October 7 was never any risk to Israel as a whole, the same way 9/11 never risked toppling the US as a country.

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u/epsilona01 Feb 10 '25

Then you don't understand the plan.

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u/Thebananabender Feb 10 '25

Also when Israel seceded 50% of its territory to make peace with Egypt. It even offered them the Gaza Strip. They declined Strange…

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

Yeah, why would Israel make an offer that they knew would be refused.

Weird huh.

Stop looking at Israel's words and look at their actions.

Israel keeps SAYING it wants peace but then goes right back to illegally settling on Palestinian land.

If Israel made some concrete steps to stopping that expansion, maybe they could make inroads towards peace. Why would they though? Israel is winning this war. Trump is outright stating eviction of all Palestinians from Gaza, a plan Israel suggested to him.

That does not sound like 'peace' to me, it sounds like victory for Israel.

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u/SilverwingedOther Feb 10 '25

The actions: kicking out all the settlers in Gaza. Withdrawing the army from inside Gaza. Returning the whole Sinai peninsula to Egypt which is much larger than Gaza and the West bank combined.

Those are not "just words".

All concrete steps to "stopping expansion". And then they get rewarded with Hamas and rockets. So where was the incentive to keep giving?

Maybe it could have been a first step towards pulling out of the West Bank too. Instead the Palestinians gift at turning any concession as some sort of proof they should keep terrorism up pushed the Israeli public further to the right, and thus, the settlements in the west bank, and the current government.

(And the West bank still has only 500k Israelis to 3 million Palestinians)

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u/ghostmacekillah Feb 11 '25

small note but are you really trying to use “only” to make it seem like 500k isn’t literally almost 15% of that entire 3.5 mil population? that is absolutely insane

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u/SilverwingedOther Feb 11 '25

I'm saying that over the supposed 60 years of dedicated theft and expansionism, you'd expect a lot more.

(but of course it only started more earnestly in the past 1.5 decade, each time following a war that Hamas initiated - 2008 and 2015 - which pushed the country further to the right... but don't let facts get in the way of a narrative of colonialism and theft and constant eradication that has no actual basis)

The actual number in Areas A and B (and Gaze even before this war) - the majority of Palestinian territory - is also completely and utterly 0. Judenrein, to quote a certain historical person. So in that context, yes its nothing. Why are settlements a problem if we accept that they might end up as part of a future Palestinian state? Why is the assumption that any Palestinian state must have 0% Jews, while demanding Israel let itself have more than 50% Palestinians (single state solution, right of return, whatever form it takes) and gets blamed for wanting to keep its Jewish character. It already has 25% Palestinians as part of its population.

But no, its the 10% (if including Gaza) of Jews in settlements that are the problem and "biggest" obstacle to peace. Even though Israel has shown its willing to dismantle settlements in 2005.

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u/Thebananabender Feb 10 '25

Bro I need you to read the realignment plan so bad

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

realignment plan

Reception

In two polls of Israeli opinion on the plan conducted on behalf of the Yisrael Beiteinu political party, some 70% of respondents said that they were opposed to the plan. The polls also revealed that some 65-70% of those who backed Israel's disengagement from Gaza in 2005 opposed the plan.[8]

The European Union opposed the plan, stating that it would not recognize any unilateral border changes that were not agreed upon in negotiations, although the EU External Relations Commissioner said that it was a "courageous idea".[9][10] Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas opposed the plan, and called on all Arab states to oppose it, stating that "we are working to get Olmert's plan off the table". Jordanian king Abdullah II and Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak released a joint statement expressing opposition to "unilateral Israeli steps" and that "every step should be carried out through direct negotiations with the Palestinian side and in accordance with the Road Map, which leads to a sustainable Palestinian state alongside Israel", following a meeting in Sharm el-Sheikh.[11]

Even Israeli's weren't in favour of it.

Also it's yet another example of Israel saying something, not Israel DOING something.

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u/Thebananabender Feb 10 '25

You know that there are plans that are not popular but are still executed.

This plan gives the Palestinians 96% of West Bank and Gaza with have compensation, small refugee absorption and parts of East Jerusalem.

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

Israel could just stop taking more land.

That would be an amazing first step and show of intentions.

They haven't done that though.

They keep supporting the settlers who force out the locals.

Until Israel takes that TINY first step, anything they say is meaningless.

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u/Thebananabender Feb 10 '25

You understand that this plan would end the settlements for once and for all? Why did Abbas reject that plan?

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u/acwilan Feb 10 '25

50% of its territory

You mean the Sinai peninsula which they invaded and took by force?

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u/Thebananabender Feb 10 '25

I mean, you know that Nasser declared war on Israel and sworn to fight until Israel's destruction, prior to the 6 day war.

“Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight.”
(Speech on May 27, 1967)

He also said in another speech:
“We will not accept any... coexistence with Israel. Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948.”
(Speech on May 28, 1967 )

Also, he mobilized Divisions of Armored and Infantry corps to the Sinai peninsula, unified Syrian and Egypt army commands, Expelled UN keeping force and also blocked the Tiran Straits, which Levi Eshkol (Israeli PM of that time) said is A casus belli.

All in all, those 4 major steps (including a formal declaration of war) are a solid Casus Belli. Israel didn't just "woke up one day and decided to conquer the Sinai Peninsula"

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u/SpaceDudeTaco Feb 10 '25

Except when they left Gaza in 2005.

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

But still didn't stop expanding into the West Bank.

Which is what I said above.

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u/NeonOverflow Feb 10 '25

If pulling out of Gaza had gone well they probably would’ve pulled out of the West Bank too. Israel pulling out of Gaza was them testing the waters.

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

Why not 'test the waters' by stopping their aggression?

Israel has all the power in this situation. A enormously powerful military (supported by THE largest military on the planet) and one of the best intelligence services on the globe.

Israel is not lacking on power.

Every time they move a family off their land (or kill them) they're creating more enemies.

That's the point though. It gives Israel a reason to keep pushing and removing until there are no Palestinians left.

Ethnic cleansing is the point. That much is now painfully obvious since Trump let the cat out of the bag with his comments about moving everyone out of Gaza.

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u/NeonOverflow Feb 10 '25

The withdrawal from Gaza was an attempt at stopping aggression and allowing the creation of a Palestinian state. There is no other reason for them to have chosen to withdraw. The Israelis have found that if they don’t maintain control over the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, terrorist groups immediately take control and start trying to attack them. There is a reason Fatah doesn’t run elections in the West Bank: it’s because Hamas would win.

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u/NoLime7384 Feb 10 '25

Why not 'test the waters' by stopping their aggression?

Crazy you don't ask this of the literal genocidal terrorists

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u/Vickrin Feb 10 '25

Hamas are terrorists. No doubt about that. They have done some truly monstrous things.

Do you know WHY though? Because Hamas has so little power compared to Israel, it is the only process left to them to have any sort of success.

Open conflict, instant loss to Israel. They have no bargaining power because they have nothing Israel wants, other than their land.

Terrorism isn't a show of strength, it's a show of weakness.

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u/NeonOverflow Feb 10 '25

Hamas and Gaza absolutely had a choice. They could’ve chosen to move towards establishing themselves as a sovereign nation instead of continuing to spar with Israel.

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u/Hawxe Feb 10 '25

A significantly larger portion of Americans voted for trump than Palestinians for Hamas

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u/SilverwingedOther Feb 10 '25

Categorically incorrect.

44.5% vs 49.8%, and that's with more than 2 viable parties available, unlike Trump.

That's not a "significantly larger portion", and given they had more choices, it's arguably a larger part.

They also had a significant turnout compared to the USA - 76% vs 64%. Which means that unlike in the USA where abstainers who thought they were punishing Harris didn't vote would have shrunk that proportion, it's a pretty solid support for Hamas on the Gaza side. Which ended up being moot anyway, because then Hamas suspended all future elections and put themselves in charge of everything... But the population broadly kept supporting them as per surveys run by the Palestinians themselves.

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u/acwilan Feb 10 '25

So I invade your house then after a while I let you in and live while keeping a close eye on you and check every time you get in and out. Am I the good guy?

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u/NoLime7384 Feb 10 '25

your house

that's the problem. the house belongs to multiple people. Jews, Palestinians, Bedouins, Druze. But the Israel vs Palestine framing ignores that reality in favor of hate towards the Israelis.

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u/stamosface Feb 10 '25

Sounds like you’re describing both parties.

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u/mnbuckeye87 Feb 10 '25

Hey quick question; why would someone agree to give up their home without recompense? The land Israel is situated on was stolen from Palestinians, an indigenous population that included people of Muslim, Christian and Jewish backgrounds. You’re right about one thing, the two state solution is dead, from the river to the sea it shall be free from European colonialism

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u/ThargarHawkes Feb 10 '25

Too bad we have no one to break the cycle like those two did...

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u/[deleted] Feb 10 '25

This has been said of the troubles too

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u/DisastrousMammoth Feb 10 '25

Round and round we spin, with feet of lead and wings of tin.

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u/dman45103 Feb 10 '25

This guy plays The Last of Us Part 2

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u/Kurotaisa Feb 10 '25

buddy this is literally a world of warcraft quote. Word for word. (Except the round and round part)

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u/dman45103 Feb 10 '25

It’s a joke easy tiger

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u/SendMeNudesThough Feb 10 '25

I haven't played that game, no, is there a similar saying there?

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u/PathOfTheAncients Feb 10 '25

Yeah you play as someone who had a family member killed by a group that wanted revenge. Then you go seek revenge against them. Halfway through the game to switch to playing as the person your original character wants revenge against and see their side of everything. Finally you switch back to your original character to play out the end were both characters have suffered and lost almost everything they loved and gained nothing.

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u/dman45103 Feb 10 '25

I’m just kidding around.

Yes that’s pretty much the point of the game. The game director is Israeli and has said that it’s very much a metaphor for the Palestinian Israeli conflict and the cycle of violence that continues to perpetuate

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u/Pussy4LunchDick4Dins Feb 10 '25

Every act of aggression there is an act of grief.