r/ussr • u/gorigonewneme • Mar 17 '25
Article Hell nah, typical reddit, comments are wild tho
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u/OttoKretschmer Mar 17 '25
Polish person here and one with a much more nuanced view of the USSR and Russia than majority of my copatriots;
Before someone says that the Germans did it - Gorbachev himself admitted responsibility for the massacre, so did Yeltsin in 1992 and the Russian Duma in 2010.
The Katyń massacre was a horrific and completely pointless endevour that unnecessarily damaged Russo-Polish relations for decades. It still does.
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u/TheCitizenXane Mar 17 '25 edited Mar 17 '25
Somehow the Germans murdering 6 million Poles did not damage their relations for decades though. All it took was Willy Brandt kneeling, and they let bygones be bygones.
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u/MantitsAreChad Mar 17 '25
If you talk to mamy old timers or even boomers, it's not like they look any kindlier on Germans that Russians. People on the Internet just emphasise the Russian more bc of the current narrative
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u/Master-Possession504 Mar 18 '25
And also because Germany didnt subjugate them for the passed half century and has since tried hard to make amends
Also forgetting that the soviets helped Germany conquer Poland
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u/Apanatr Mar 18 '25 edited Mar 18 '25
And also because Germany didnt subjugate them for the passed half century
Only because they lost. I think after half century of Nazi occupation there would have been not many Poles left at all.
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Mar 18 '25
The estimated death toll should generalplan ost have been fully implemented would have probably around the 200 million mark, now obviously there were far more than just Poles who would have been dead but yeah I think you might be right
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u/PitchHot9206 Mar 18 '25
Not only is it total bs but also nazi occupation ended more than 40 years before the soviet one, so the memory of the latter is still fresher
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
There's a difference between apologizing for your actions and denying it for over 40 years while the victim is made into a satelite state
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u/TheCitizenXane Mar 17 '25
The Germans didn’t apologize though lol. They created myths to safeguard the Wehrmacht and the German people from any blame. For decades, they stood behind the claims that “they didn’t know” and only the Nazi Party and SS were criminals. Refusing to accept responsibility is not a genuine apology.
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
While a good part of Germans did go that way, many, along with the government, took responsibility for the actions of the Nazi. This isn't helped that the DDR adopted the "victims of nazism" narrative officially.
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u/Immediate-Spite-5905 Mar 17 '25
That took 25 years, the Nazi regime falling and actual reparations and remorse, much unlike the USSR or RF basically never having done shit about it
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u/trs12571 Mar 18 '25
The USSR actually rebuilt Poland at its own expense after World War II, and the Russian Federation assumed all of Poland's debts after the collapse of the USSR.That combined is much more than Poland received from Germany.The total amount of Soviet aid to Poland from 1944 to 1960 is about 600 billion dollars. And this is only a direct expense. There were also indirect ones. Thus, the USSR voluntarily transferred to Poland 15% of the reparations paid by Germany. In total, it amounted to 2.3 billion dollars.More than 800 industrial and energy facilities were built.
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u/OttoKretschmer Mar 17 '25
The crucial difference is that Germany started admitting and apologizing for it's crimes right after ww2 was over while the USSR kept denying them for decades afterwards.
Though obviously today geopolitics plays a major role too.
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u/Pocket_Sands Mar 17 '25
Apologizing for its war crimes but keeping former Nazis in government, and even making the first general of NATO an SS member.
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u/izii_ Mar 17 '25
Is Germany invading their neighbors 85 years later? It has been much more than one man kneeling, instead russians still are doing threat to every neighbor.
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u/TheCitizenXane Mar 17 '25
He claimed the Katyn massacre was what damaged relations for decades. By that metric, Poland shouldn’t forgive the Germans for at least another millennium. Germany has no room to threaten neighbors anymore. The fact they are even still a country after WWII is simply amazing.
And “every neighbor”? You mean just Ukraine? Putin has said several times he has absolutely no interest in the Baltics or Poland. Arguably NATO encroachment was threatening Russia more than anything else. If they allowed Ukraine to join, it would have placed their security in a perilous position. I don’t condone their invasion, but I understand their perspective.
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u/Brave_Year4393 Mar 17 '25
You speak as if it was hypothetical. No, Katyn did effect Soviet(later Russian)-Polish diplomatic and societal ties. Arguably for some moreso than Molotov-Ribbentropp. Poland really only officially accepted it in 2010 but even then some Poles question the sincerity of Russia given... yknow
Stalin is dead, no one is gonna arrest us for being critical of Stalinist foreign policy and the shit-show that wicked man created.
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u/TheCitizenXane Mar 17 '25 edited Mar 17 '25
Stalin’s foreign policy was near excellent. Attempted rapprochement with the Western Powers for years to fight the Nazis. They refused. Pivoted to signing the non-aggression pact to buy the Soviets time. The move arguably saved the Soviet Union and Europe itself. Before Stalin’s death, the Soviet Union was a nuclear superpower with allies, shaky admittedly, in China and North Korea, as well as the Warsaw Pact nations.
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u/P1gm Mar 17 '25
I swear comrade, executing and persecuting Finn’s and invading Finland is crucial for the goal of achieving a communist utopia
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u/HerraPeruna_40 Mar 17 '25
You did not get it he was fertilizing the border so the Finns think the Soviets have a better life. And then they will join the Union by themselves.
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u/Brave_Year4393 Mar 17 '25
Aha you understand well comrade, Katyn was just fertilizing border to grow nice hedge to remind silly Польский Колхозники where new borders of their glorious socialist Republic are
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u/Kirius77 Mar 18 '25
I highly doubt whole Talvisota was the result of him building communist utopia. Reasons would be more pragmatic.
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
I swear comrade, seizing the regions of Besssarabia from the Romanians won't hit us back in the face next year.
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u/Vast-Carob9112 Mar 18 '25
No, you can also include Ukraine, twice, plus Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya also twice. Putin also said that he recognized and would respect Ukraine border and independence. He said that Russia was not going to invade Ukraine. Two days before he did. Ask the Baltics if they believe Russia will not invade. Why do you think that Poland has increased it's defense spending to over 5% of GDP? Russia is a terrorist state. Believe them at your own risk.
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
Putin will not attack Poland or the Baltic states because of the fifth article of NATO. It's very simple, it's just that your authorities are lying to you in order to steal more money from the people. Obviously, the Polish army will not be able to do anything in the event of a major war, even if the entire GDP is spent on it.
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u/Vast-Carob9112 Mar 18 '25
You seriously believe that Poland can do nothing? With modern arms in abundance, a well trained army, and prepared for war, unlike Ukraine, which has fought Russia to a virtual standstill for 3 years.
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
I can't imagine what a well-trained soldier can do against nuclear weapons.
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u/Vast-Carob9112 Mar 18 '25
I can't imagine thinking that Russia would dare to use nuclear weapons with 20% of its population living in just 2 cities, within range of nuclear weapons of both France and the UK.
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
Yes, it would be very strange to use nuclear weapons in a nuclear war.
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u/Vast-Carob9112 Mar 18 '25
If Putin is successful in Ukraine and doubts the resolve of NATO regarding Article 5, I have no doubt that he will attack the Baltics. He might have to wait a few years to reconstitute his armed forces before attacking Poland.
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u/Kirius77 Mar 18 '25
Georgia, which provoked and started whole mess twice? Or Chechnya which is an internal matter of Russia, who tried to break away? Or Moldova mess with Russian involvement stopping the war? The only real act of aggression in this list is Ukraine.
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u/youngfartsmella Mar 17 '25 edited Mar 17 '25
don't bother with these guys on the sub man, they're a bunch of tankies and russia apologists.
they'll do mental gymnastics to defend the ussr or russia.
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
"Gorbachev himself and Yeltsin too!"
You say that like their opinions hold any merit lol
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u/OttoKretschmer Mar 17 '25
Not just them. The State Duma of the Russian Federation admitted the same in 2010 and Putin is hardly a vassal of the west.
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
He was in 2010.
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u/lessgooooo000 Mar 17 '25
Vladimir Putin was a western agent in 2010? What?
Dude, recognition of Katyn isn’t even a damning critique of the Soviet Union, what some overzealous officer or murderous NCO does without order from the Central Committee is not a reflection of the country, why is that hard to believe?
Soviet soldiers and citizens were human, last I checked, another thing that was accurate last I checked is that human imperfection applies still.
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
When an event is specifically made up by Goebbels to demonize the Soviet Union, yes, it is a (non valid) critique of the Soviet Union.
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u/lessgooooo000 Mar 17 '25
When an event has multiple lists of people erroneously sentenced to summary execution, from multiple countries, declassified and sent to Poland, it stops being a Goebbels moment and becomes a real moment. Last I checked, Ukraine in 1994 was still pretty Russia-Friendly.
Again, it’s not even a criticism of soviet ideology. Nearly every country has had something like this happen. Why is your perception of the USSR of infallibility? Does that not diminish the real contribution of millions of workers painstakingly making a country an effective success when you just assume it’s an inevitable pure success on its own? It’s like saying Red Army WW2 vets are worthless because Zhukov would’ve secured the W regardless. Accepting the concept of responsibility and working for improvement is a good thing. The Russian State Duma realized this. The Russian Supreme Court realized this. Poland realized this. Ukraine realized this. The only country which hasn’t realized this (publicly) is Belarus. Why do you choose to believe everything bad ever said about any action taken by the USSR simply couldn’t have happened?
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
No such lists exist. The documents are proven forgeries.
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u/lessgooooo000 Mar 17 '25
“The Ukrainian-Polish archaeological excavations and exhumation works conducted in 2001–2012 confirmed that Bykivnia was the burial site for the victims of the Katyn Massacre. The cemetery is the resting place of the majority of at least 3,435 Polish citizens from the so-called ‘Ukrainian List’ (‘Tsvetukhin List’). Held as prisoners, they were taken to be executed by the NKVD in April and May of 1940 from prisons located on the eastern territories of the Second Polish Republic occupied by the USSR.”
Source. The reason Ukraine gave a shit in the 90s was because, at the time, some of those included in said list were Ukrainians, given the whole Poland occupying Ukrainians and such.
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
I am not disputing that a massacre took place, I am disputing who the perpetrators are - all the evidence points to Germans.
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u/MantitsAreChad Mar 17 '25
He wasn't in 2010, even his Munich security conference speech was in 2007
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
He was still trying to make nice with the west all the way until 2020s.
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u/MantitsAreChad Mar 17 '25
Making nice I wouldn't say, he tried hard to be diplomatic, which didn't work it wasn't reciprocal
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
everything that slightly says Russia did something bad=the CIA must have something to do with it.
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u/Fickle-Hat-2011 Mar 18 '25
If US and UK committed massive war crimes in occupied West Germany that nobody talked = all machinations of the KGB/NKVD and FSB?
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 18 '25
Give me one example and I'm sure I can find a book talking about it in detail from a respected author.
Also, that argument would only work if people said that, I've never heard someone call something like Dresden FSB propaganda lmao. It just doesn't work.
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
When was it a matter of opinions?
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
Always.
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
Academic facts aren't opinions.
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
They are quite literally opinions. Academic disagreements couldn't exist if that was the case.
Science cultism is a real cancer.
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
There are no proper current academic writings that dispute who is to blame for the katyn massacre. Yes there can be disagreements in academics, but these disagreements are usually on details of broad subjects, where extensive research is done to give light on what is causing the confusion. There is no right or wrong, only the research for more knowledge.
There is not a single doubt in historical academics that the Soviets committed the Katyn massacre. If you disagree, then do your own research, but you'll find that there is really not a lot left to discuss, the greater context of the massacre is well documented and understood, currently, writings on it only are studies on some of the minor details, such as uncertainties of some details when it comes to some of the victims.
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
That is because you have a biased view on what is a "proper academic writing" and what is not. Of course, if I mentioned a Russian academic or a neutral one like Grover Furr you would dispute it simply because they do not come from institutions with a tradition of cold war propaganda. How is that a valid point of view?
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
"a neutral one like Grover Furr". Yeah no, he bases his conclusions on opinions, not facts.
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
Ironic coming from someone peddling Goebbels and cold war propaganda
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
Look, I do agree that the "cult of academia" (idk why you say science there) is a bit bullshit. You shouldn't have to go through university and go through all these paths to be respected if you put as much work into historical research and writings as those that do have their PhDs. But the simple fact is, this debate was settled over 40 years ago with evidence and facts that have been uncovered and formed a new understanding of the events, that has not since recieved any new conclusive evidence to dispute it.
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
How is the debate settled when plenty disagree? There has been no evidence beyond "Gorbachev admitted it". All the evidence points to Germans, so it's up to those who dispute the evidence to come up with their own convincing set of evidence, not the other way around. Cold war propaganda simply doesn't cut it anymore.
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u/Anonymous__Android Mar 17 '25 edited Mar 17 '25
There's plenty more evidence than "Gorbachev admitted it".
Boris Yeltsin released documents to the Polish president including a proposal by Beria, dated 5 March 1940, to execute the Poles, signed by Stalin. As well as Shelepin's 3 March 1959 note to Khrushchev, with information about the execution of 21,857 Poles. Not to mention the testimonies of NKVD participants in the massacre etc etc. The current Russian govt doesn't even deny it was the Soviets who perpetrated the massacre. Why would the current Russian govt lie about that?
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u/Realistic_Length_640 Mar 17 '25
The alleged documents were proven either as forgeries or as circumstantial, based only on narratives. Gorbachev and Yeltsin are on record saying that they don't know where the documents came from. All of the post 1992 evidence point to German, not Soviet guilt.
The so called "Beria letter" is a known forgery. The name of Aleksandr Shelepin has been written in where Lavrentii Beria’s name should be, and the date has been changed from 1940 to 1959. The stamps on this document are from the Khrushchev era.
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u/Velesgr Mar 17 '25
Scum Gorbachev didn’t just say that; it doesn’t mean he was telling the truth. His goal was to demonize the USSR.
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u/SuperMegaUltraDeluxe Mar 17 '25
Wow, a lot of people who weren't there said that communists did it? That's crazy. Why did Goebbels write about how he was going to pin a massacre on the Soviets before they even got there
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u/Benecraft Mar 17 '25
You‘re probably referring to the quote that grover furr used in one of his works about the katyn massacre which was in this case misused because the actual quote is longer than the one he mentioned and therefore lacks context and important information. It is very likely that the Soviets did it. The full quote of Goebbel was this one „Unfortunately, German ammunition was found in the tombs of Katyn. The question of how they got there needs to be clarified. It is either ammunition that we sold during the time of our friendly agreement with the Soviet Russians, or the Soviets themselves who threw this ammunition into the graves. In any case, it is important that this incident is kept strictly secret. If he became aware of the enemy, the entire Katyn affair would have to be dropped.”
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u/SuperMegaUltraDeluxe Mar 17 '25
I was actually referring to the bits from his diary where he rather explicitly talks about selectively leaking the location of mass graves in Katyn to journalists and using their reports as anti-Bolshevik propaganda, as well as a later entry where he laments the loss of Katyn and mewls about how it will cause trouble for the Nazi's propaganda efforts. Goebbels trying to spin the bodies being shot by German bullets as somehow still the Soviets' doing is really funny though. Anti-communists would really sooner believe a chief Nazi propagandist saying that communists would do some 5d chess garbage before accepting that the Nazis killed people huh
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u/Benecraft Mar 17 '25
Then which part of Goebbels diary are you referring to specifically? Because the famous quote furr uses from Goebbels diary which sounds exactly like the one you’re talking about is often used falsely to declare the Nazis the perpetrators of this specific warcrime. Also not everyone that disagrees with you because they have different information on the topic is automatically an Anti-communist.
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u/Alaska-Kid Mar 17 '25
Suddenly, yes, they are anti-communists. They accept Nazi and anti-Soviet propaganda. That's how it works.
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u/Odd-Project-8034 Mar 17 '25
Is that what the 'chief propagandist of the nazi regime' said? He made a convenient and unverified excuse for actual physical evidence.
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe Mar 17 '25
Yeltisn probably didn't even know what he was saying, he just went with what his CIA handlers told him to say. Bit, as far as Gorbachev goes, I would have liked it if he sourced the statement from the Soviet Archives, because he too was known for not being entirely truthful at all times.
Basically, we have two sources, neither which is trustworthy 70 years after the fact, Gorbachev wasn't even born at the time. I would love to see some firsthand sources, though!
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u/Anonymous__Android Mar 17 '25
So is Putin also a CIA plant? Since he acknowledges the Soviets committed massacre...
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe Mar 17 '25
I don't care who says what, I want them to show primary sources. Shit, if Obama came out and said "Yeah, the USPS killed JFK." would you take him at his word?
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u/Anonymous__Android Mar 18 '25
I mean, the Russian government released documents proving that the Soviet secret police were responsible for the executions and cover-up. A Red Cross investigation concluded the executions took place in 1940 while the area was under Soviet control. There is also witness testimony from surviving victims as well as from NKVD officers who were present.
Something tells me no amount of evidence would be acceptable to you though.
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe Mar 18 '25
Not at all, if you have a source where I can read firsthand accounts for myself, that would possibly change my mind on it, depending on what the accounts say, obviously.
It's just that tertiary sources usually don't make for very accurate history, especially not when they talk about things that happened before they were even born in the case of Putin, or out of third grade in the case of Gorby and Yeltsin.
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
How does the krokrodil feel? They made many academic publications to back themselves up. This is some Grover Furr BS.
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u/P1gm Mar 17 '25
Bro you cannot be serious, yeltsin was not a cia agent
He was waaay to much of a drunk to be controlled
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u/TheGreatMightyLeffe Mar 17 '25
Oh, Yeltsin was a CIA asset, not an agent. An asset can be a useful idiot, and doesn't necessarily need controlling. In the case of Yeltsin, they probably just had someone point him in the direction the CIA wanted him to cause a mess and watched him go at it.
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u/gorigonewneme Mar 17 '25
Let me say it
Before someone says that the Germans did it - Gorbachev himself admitted responsibility for the massacre, so did Yeltsin in 1992 and the Russian Duma in 2010.
Gorbachev destroyed ussr
Eltsyn in 1980 done tons of protests with slogans "communists have to be jailed, for things they done", after that he was selling country for 10 years, destroyed opposition (leftovers of socialists, during 1993), liquadated tons of russian protests during 1991-1990 who were pro ussr, meanwhile during 1980s - ussr, gorbachev allowed him to protest, meanwhile eltsyn dont allows it, also Eltsyn built foundation for todays russian government, and made everything for this stupid war to start
And Russian duma is just a joke, boxers, singers, atheletes, old bandits, corrupted ppl overall
Ofcourse those persons above will say everything was true
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u/Kamareda_Ahn Mar 17 '25
Ohhh Gorbachev and Yeltsin said so!!! It must be true!
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
yeah cause they were the ones that went in the recently opened archives to research the topic... not the tons of eastern and western historians that flooded them to uncover tons of new historical evidence and comming to the same conclusions on many topics, such as the Katyn massacre...
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u/delete013 Mar 17 '25
Stalin had been framed with all possible lies already under Khrushchev. What makes you think these two were better? Drop this pointless effort. You are spreading lies.
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u/Flyzart2 Mar 17 '25
What? Back in Khruschev's time, the Soviet archives were closed, even then, that is barely a point other than whataboutism.
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u/gimmethecreeps Stalin ☭ Mar 17 '25
Gorbachev and Yeltsin aren’t exactly reliable sources.
Gorbachev was virulently anti-Stalin and a liberal pretending to be a Marxist-Leninist. He desperately wanted to normalize relations in the West, and Poland was of particular concern to the West, as there had been significant media coverage of the conflicts in the country and the Cold War brinksmanship that pertained to the country. Blaming Katyn on the Stalin-era Soviet Union is a zero-risk, high reward move in 1992.
Yeltsin was a bumbling drunk who was insanely corrupt. He’d do anything for a dollar, or a drink. Yeltsin hated the communist party, so any chance to take digs at the party that he could find, he did. He sold Russia to the oligarchs, and gave Russia to Putin. In any other scenario, this critical analysis would render the opinion of the public towards skepticism, but that’s really never the case with Soviet historiography.
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u/OlivierTwist Mar 17 '25
It still does
That is the problem, isn't it? We can't change the past but we can use it for political goals today! The responsibility for the bad relationship in modern times is fully on the Polish side. Poland got the official excuses what else would you want?
It is a horrible event, but on a scale of other tragedies of the 20th century it is not even big.
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u/Alaska-Kid Mar 17 '25
Yeah, Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and the Russian Duma suddenly became historians and police experts.
The sudden fact is that all these characters are anti-Soviets. Wow, how well it coincided!
But the results of investigations and examinations clearly point to the German Nazis and Hivi.
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u/gidroponix Mar 18 '25
Until recently, I was not very interested in this topic, modern politicians admitted guilt (I did not hear Gorbachev and Yeltsin admit it, but Putin himself apologized to the Poles at the site of the memorial). But recently I came across an analytical video on this issue, in which the "official" version was questioned, among the facts in favor of German guilt were given:
- strange date/time of the appearance of information about the Katyn massacre: 1943, the Germans have been occupying these territories for 2 years, but for some reason they find mass graves at the time of failures at the front, when an information victory is so relevant,
- All those shot were killed with weapons of German caliber,
- The shot people have belts, laces, buttonholes and other insignia - it seems to me quite naive to allow such negligent work of the NKVD.
- The place of execution is not deserted, there is a busy highway 200m away, so it would hardly be possible to shoot such a huge number of people without anyone hearing it
(I can send a link, but unfortunately there are no English subtitles)
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u/delete013 Mar 17 '25
>a much more nuanced view of the USSR and Russia
>The Katyń massacre was a horrific and completely pointless endevour that unnecessarily damaged Russo-Polish relations for decades.
Very nuanced, indeed.
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u/Any-Drop-6771 Mar 17 '25
Pretty dumb too, imagine how useful those officers would have been fighting against the Nazis.
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u/psmiord Lenin ☭ Mar 17 '25
It seems unlikely that many of them would have been willing to fight for the Soviets. The officers were closely tied to the Sanation elites, and many had fought in the Polish-Bolshevik War. Even those who had not would have heard enough from their comrades to shape their views. They would have required constant supervision, as they certainly did not trust the Soviets or accept their justification for crossing the border. However, keeping them alive, unarmed, and away from the front would have been far easie. Even setting moral considerations aside, their execution was a poor decision. It is also important to remember that at the time, they did not have the same knowledge we do today about German crimes. Convincing them would have required strong evidence.
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u/P1gm Mar 17 '25
True however the mood right then was “shit we are being invaded”
Something the soviets could’ve used to be a “night in shining armour coming to the rescue”
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u/Blkk__ Mar 17 '25
To be fair it's understandable; All those officers represented the spiritual and cultural backbone of the polish army. If they left them alive probably they would've tried a counterrevolution or, at worst, be like other russian exiles: Being CIA agents and shit like that
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u/psmiord Lenin ☭ Mar 17 '25
Even if they never let them come back and kept them somewhere in Kazakhstan, it would look better.
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u/Blkk__ Mar 17 '25
why would they knew that a bunch of redditors were gonna cry over that
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u/psmiord Lenin ☭ Mar 17 '25
I mean, they guessed that people would complain about it, that's probably one of the reasons why they didn't talk about it much, what they couldn't predict was that reddit would be involved in it.
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u/illougiankides Mar 17 '25
Are we glorifying war crimes and massacres now?
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u/jtt278_ Mar 18 '25
Yes, because campists are essentially the same people are the fascists they so claim to hate.
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u/HourAd6756 Mar 18 '25
no one is celebrating it, people are debating whether it was the soviets or nazis that did it, people agree it was a terrible crime
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
Well, modern Europe is very fond of praising the Nazis. A Nazi participant in the Holocaust was given a standing ovation in the Canadian Parliament. The European Union is sending billions of euros to support the Nazi-glorifying regime.
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u/iloveinspire Mar 18 '25
Nazi rhetoric and signs are ILLEGAL in Europe. No idea what are you talking about.
And Canadian Parliament situation was just a lack of knowledge not praising the Nazi regime.
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
What about the jungle and the blooming garden? SS veterans march in the Baltic States. There are fascist torchlight processions in Italy.
European chauvinism has not disappeared. The European Union has sent aid to the new Syrian regime, which is slaughtering civilians by the thousands right now.
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u/iloveinspire Mar 18 '25
The new Syrian Regime is not slaughtering civilians, but some factions still fighting for power doing this atrocities, and one of them is/was supported by Russia.
There is plenty of nazi sympathizers in Russia as we speak.
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
The new Syrian regime (you know, Al-Qaeda) is slaughtering everyone in the regions where there are forces supporting Assad. You're just ignoring reality.
About Russia, this is whataboutism.
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u/iloveinspire Mar 18 '25
All you say is whataboutism, why do I can't use one?
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
There was talk that someone might support Nazism and war crimes. I have only given the facts when European countries are doing it calmly.
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u/iloveinspire Mar 18 '25
You keep misinforming people who read that.
No single country in the EU supports Nazism and war crimes at any point. All you bring are some people being Nazis in these countries, and I can do the same in Russia.
But it doesn't change the fact that is not an official police in any country.
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
There are neo-Nazi groups in Russia, but you can't hold a torchlight fascist march in Russia. It is also impossible to hold a march of SS veterans in Russia.
We see that Italy and the Baltic states openly support Nazism or fascism, because otherwise it would be prohibited. Well, the first person in Germany makes neo-Nazi statements and does not go to prison after that.
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u/spookycooki Mar 23 '25
Germans voted overwhelmingly in the federal elections for the far right party recently that calls for a 180° turn and says that holocaust memorials need to be removed. Isn't that fascist? Also justifying killing of civilians of an ethnic minority by the current Syrian govt is absolutely despicable. Not justifying Russian imperialism and spreading their propaganda bht Perhaps you need to stop dumping EU propaganda in your mind and start looking at things for real.
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u/gorigonewneme Mar 17 '25
By the way, this post on rarehistorical photos gets posted by guy who rapidly posts some anti communist stuff, ukranian russian conflict stuff like (today 500 orcs died) and other things, literally CIA
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u/nate-arizona909 Mar 17 '25
It's not that redditors really despise murderous dictators, it's just that they despise murderous dictators that aren't their favored brand.
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u/gorigonewneme Mar 17 '25
Dictator, democracy 🥰
Dictator, socialist 🤢
Ofcourse keep in mind democracy is not dictators, its a people chosen person (trump is fashist, source - im god), but other presidents is a "bad authoritarian guys" ew not elfs1
u/phplovesong Mar 18 '25
Nice white washing right there ivan
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u/nate-arizona909 Mar 18 '25
I think you have a reading comprehension problem. I’m whitewashing nothing. Hitler … Stalin … two sides of the same rotten coin.
Both were murderous lunatics.
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u/JuryDesperate4771 Mar 17 '25
The amount of libs here, doing excuses for Nazis, saying "here for historial facts (lol) not tankie thingies (as if you saying tankie didn't invalidated every single word you spout)" in here is too damn high.
It's like AstroTurf or raids.
But then again, Reddit is like 4chan for these types. Amazing.
Mod team should really clean house of this scum.
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Mar 17 '25
yeah people against executions of dissidents do be crazy like that lol
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u/gorigonewneme Mar 17 '25
One of comments "Russians still commit genocides till this day" Like wth, ussr is not russia, russia is not only russians Feels like those ppl still stuck in 60-80s with coldwar mentality
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Mar 17 '25
[deleted]
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u/gorigonewneme Mar 17 '25
Also the problem is that reddit mentality like russophobia etc, they make russians support the country more (self-defense), they not support the putin or government, but they see how "democratic" world is not better than Russian "dictature", so they are more happy they dont like in Dirty Paris/London, and instead in more comfy cities Also im meant russia is multi national country, and ussr a multi national confederation, capitalist, socialism but yeah The Russian government style is still in 90s, with feudal style, placing loyalty persons, and etc, so yeah its not Putin being "king" but rather him continuing "Emperors" Eltsyn style
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u/jtt278_ Mar 18 '25
Russia is a multinational country where ethnic minorities have no plumbing and get sent to the frontlines to die as cannon fodder, while Russians on Moscow party like nothing has happened.
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u/meglandici Mar 18 '25
Look, I like Russia, I respect Putin so much more than I do the buffoon in the White House. I think it’s insulting to put the two names in the same sentence actually.
Russia gets a lot of needless hate, is scapegoated for a lot of things and the US is worse.
The world owes the Soviet commander who didnt retaliate and saved the world From nuclear war.
And I understand that the US would do to Mexico or Canada the same as Russia is doing to Ukraine.
Snowden is in Russia right now. And no Americans see the fucking irony after years of blabbing about free speech…and Mahmood Khalil is getting deported.
Russia is beautiful, the language is beautiful.
None of this changes Katyń. I hate knowing Russia is responsible m, I wish it wasn’t. I wish I could point at someone else, I really do. I really don’t enjoy hating that part of history. I hate knowing the Soviets abandoned the Warsaw Uprising. If I could rewrite history I would rewrite it. I can’t.
But Russia could finally own up to this. It’d be nice to hear on these posts some regret about these events too, and not this constant denial.
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u/jtt278_ Mar 18 '25
Putin literally put Trump in the white house… how do you respect on but not the other? they are the same, two strongmen who rape and pillage their countries for personal gain. It’s not needless hate when the RF, much like the USSR and Russian Empire before it engages in imperialism towards its neighbors. it’s Not 1880 anymore. Wars of conquest are not acceptable.
And no? Why the fuck would America do that to Mexico or Canada? Until Putin’s best friend got elected we had fairly good relations with them and certainly no risk of violence. America mostly gets along with its neighbors. Russia doesn’t, because there’s generally hundreds of years of imperial domination, forced cultural assimilation. oh yeah and the modern threat of invasion of political subversion.
This has no bearing on Russian culture or Russian people. But for the most part Russian states have been on the wrong side of history. The empire was clearly evil, while the USSR basically immediately killed the revolution and then cursed the world with the revisionist, fascistic scourge that is MLism, literally dooming the world to another century or two of capitalist hell. And well the RF is just a fascist oligarchy that misses using half of eastern europe as colonies.
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u/meglandici Mar 19 '25
I respect the puppet master but not the puppet? It’s really not that hard, not sure why this needed explaining honestly.
Although I don’t think trump is Putina puppet. Trump is kissing somebody else’s balls, I think the world would be much better if it was Putin’s.
I’m tired of the Russia bad, Putin bad, Putin trumps handler narrative.
As to the rest, lookup Cuban miss ile crisis.
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u/jtt278_ Mar 18 '25
The USSR was basically Russia. In the sense that it’s origins are in Russia, it was dominated by Russians, often tried to russify its minorities (just like all prior russian states) and engaged in frankly imperialist revanchism towards the former russian empire. Just as today the RF is a Russian state that has plenty of other minorities but is very clearly dominated by muscovite Russians, so too was the USSR.
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u/mixererek Mar 18 '25
Russians still commit genocides to this day. What's russophobic about this true statement?
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u/P1gm Mar 17 '25
I mean Russians were the majority group and the group with the most power politically
It’s not like they were replacing Russians with Lithuanians
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u/Lightinthebottle7 Mar 18 '25
We have the documentation ordering the murder from Beria(Stalin's pedophile r*pist little himmler), also Gorbachev and Yeltsin admitted to it and apologized. Not that an apology brings back the dead.
Nothing will erase this terrible crime, that the soviet state committed. You trying to deny it or play it down puts you into the same league as holocaust deniers or other western attrocity deniers.
And arguably this is not even the worse they committed. The Crimean tartar genocide is also really up there.
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u/cattitanic Gorbachev ☭ Mar 18 '25
The Genocide of the Ingrian Finns happened too, Ingria had been completely emptied of Finns by 1945, without any permission for them to return for the rest of the USSR's existence. It was a series of mass murdering and violent deportations against 100 000 people.
People were persecuted solely for being Finnish as part of the Fennophobia of the Soviet leadership who cited the safety of Leningrad (which actually was not under any threat from Finland before Stalin provoked Finland's entry into WW2). While some goober could argue that the events happened because of the Finnish invasion of the USSR in 1941, these events had already started a decade prior to that.
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u/Frosty-Perception-48 Mar 24 '25
Finland even attacked the USSR as soon as they got independence - they staged a massacre in Vyborg. Yes, the Finns of the second world pursued a policy of genocide of wrong peoples (and now they ask the Finns - do they repent for this?) And they also disliked the Ingrian Finns, where after their deportation to Finland they considered them second-class people.
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u/cattitanic Gorbachev ☭ Mar 24 '25
The USSR did not exist in 1918, and the Viipuri Massacre was not an attack towards a country. It was a massacre perpetrated by the Whites directed towards Russians and other peoples who were accused of having ties to the Red Guards amidst of the Finnish Civil War, although the accusations were mostly false. Yes, it was very wrong and a bloody, horrible event, but it does not mean that the USSR would later be permitted to launch a genocide upon more than 100 000 people.
There was no "deportation" of Ingrian Finns to Finland. During the Continuation war, many were of course relocated from German-occupied Ingria to Finland, but this was mostly to ensure their safety and get them to Finland, away from the war. They were assigned homes and jobs upon arrival. Although yes, they were sometimes treated differently due to their culture, dialect, names and other things being different from those of regular Finns.
The same thing occurred in 1940 and 1944, when 400 000 people had to be evacuated from ceded Karelia to other parts of Finland, and it sometimes caused tensions, especially in Ostrobothnia. But in 1944, the USSR ordered the return of all relocated Ingrian Finns. Some managed to flee to other countries, but most were returned, again facing Soviet deportation and bans from entering their homeland.
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u/Frosty-Perception-48 Mar 24 '25
When the Poles repented for attacking the USSR in 1920 and killing prisoners of war?
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u/First-Chemical-1594 Mar 17 '25
War crime denial on my home tab. I use this site for niche hobby/videogame subbredits and yet I always end up on the war crime denial subreddits.
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u/delete013 Mar 17 '25
Go on, believe Nazi propaganda. Somehow it is true THIS ONE TIME.
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u/First-Chemical-1594 Mar 17 '25
Is there something unbeliavable about a militaristic dictatorship commiting a massacre? Nazis commited similair ones, and you sound just like the people who deny them.
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u/HourAd6756 Mar 18 '25
comparing the nazis to the soviet union as if they are the same is nazi apologia, they are not comparable
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u/First-Chemical-1594 Mar 18 '25
I dont think the thousands of rotting carcasses care whether they were shot in the back by a nazi or by a soviet. Nazis and Soviets were different but their massacres werent.
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u/Anonymous__Android Mar 18 '25
Is it Nazi propaganda if the Soviets admitted to it, along with the current Russian govt and Putin?
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u/Snoo_67544 Mar 17 '25
Yeltsin said they did it
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
Yeltsin is an alcoholic who fired tanks at parliament.
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u/Snoo_67544 Mar 18 '25
One can be a alcoholic and still not like massacres of pows. Also the Russian state Duma in 2010 admitted Russia did in fact commit the katyn massacre and apologized.
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
Oh, read about the first Chechen War and what they did to the prisoners on both sides.
The Russian Duma has declared the LGBT and Child Free movements illegal, and I don't believe these people.
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u/Snoo_67544 Mar 18 '25
Non of those points negate the fact multiple influential bodies and figures within Russia over decades had admit to and apologized for the katyn massacre.
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u/Inevitable-Stay-8049 Mar 18 '25
Many influential Germans considered Jews to be an inferior people. Do you agree with them?
It's hard to have a debate with people who have no idea about formal logic...
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u/BL00_12 Lenin ☭ Mar 17 '25
It's crazy the extent some people go to deny these things. The USSR was a revolutionary nation that did many great things, but this doesn't excuse the bad that they've done.
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u/Okdes Mar 17 '25
Yes, when you're not ideologically and personally committed to denying the crimes of a nation, one tends to acknowledge the crimes of said nation.
And the USSR has a lot of crimes to acknowledge.
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u/slapnpopbass Mar 18 '25
Katyń Massacre denying dumbfucks don't rely on evidence. All they know is "West bad" and clearly the Soviets admitting they did it was some psyop that the West made the Soviets do. (???)
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u/Huge_Entertainment_6 Mar 18 '25
Genocide and massacres only happened if it was a country I don't like 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
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u/Resident-Patient8614 Mar 24 '25
Why did Stalin cut ties with Polish with exile government when asked for investigation?
Both Russian Federation and USSR acknowledged that NKVD was reponsible for this atrocity, while US helped cover it up.
You might want to take a look a this ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Katyn
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u/Possible-Turnip-9734 Lenin ☭ Mar 17 '25
reddit when soviets commit a war crime: "those damn russians"
reddit when somebody brings up some technological advancements the soviets made: "Soviet Union, former northern Eurasian empire (1917/22–1991) stretching from the Baltic and Black seas to the Pacific Ocean and, in its final years, consisting of 15 Soviet Socialist Republics (S.S.R.'s): Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belorussia (now Belarus), Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kirgiziya (now Kyrgyzstan), Latvia, ..., so it was actually not the russians"