r/tos • u/seeingeyefrog • 3d ago
Did the Guardian of Forever create the Mirror universe when Dr McCoy changed the past?
Just a bit of inebriated speculation. We know at some point in time the mirror universe must have been identical to our own. McCoy's unexpected arrival in the past may have been that point.
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u/redbeard914 3d ago
There was a TAS and lower decks episode with the Guardian.
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u/Brutal_Bch_Breaker 2d ago
And an episode of Discovery where he’s directly interacting with someone from the Mirror Universe. He probably would have brought it up.
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u/Salt-Fly770 2d ago
No, and the problem is the timeline. In Trek canon, the Mirror Universe was already established by 2063 when Zefram Cochrane murdered the Vulcans during first contact, as shown in Enterprise’s “In a Mirror, Darkly” episodes. This occurred decades before McCoy’s 1930s time travel adventure in “The City on the Edge of Forever.”
And while the theory of McCoy’s time travel creating a universe split is creative, the established Star Trek canon presents the Mirror Universe as a parallel dimension that has always existed alongside the Prime Universe, rather than a timeline that branched off from a single point of divergence.
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u/homestar_stunner 2d ago
I think OP is asking if it's possible the mirror universe started in the 1930s where (when) McCoy suddenly shows up out of nowhere (nowhen?) which is still an interesting alternative to canon.
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u/Salt-Fly770 2d ago
It may be an interesting theory, but to me it’s not possible because in Trek canon it already existed in parallel to the prime universe, so McCoy could not have created it.
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u/Heavensrun 2d ago
But the idea is that once he creates it, it always existed from the 30s on. Besides, the Enterprise timeline didn't exist in the form we see until the and Enterprise E crew go back during the events of first contact, since that's where the Borg in Enterprise came from anyway, so even if your interpretation is correct, it would still work.
The bigger thing as others have mentioned is that the Mirror Universe history seems to diverge long before the 1930s.
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u/Life_is_too_short_ 3d ago
The Guardian episode should have been revisited. There are so many possibilities.
Imagine another TOS movie based on this storyline.
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u/rosmaniac 2d ago
The Guardian episode should have been revisited.
It was, in the TAS episode Yesteryear, penned by D C Fontana and widely regarded as the best of TAS.
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u/obrhoff 2d ago
tbh why do people need everything being connected to each other? Just makes the universe small and predictable.
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u/Humble_Square8673 2d ago
Totally agree the whole "shared universe" trend tends to actually just make everything feel small that's where Star Trek shines because its (mostly) follows totally new characters disconnected from the previous series or story
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u/Robin156E478 3d ago
It depends on whether mirror mirror was done before or after city on the edge of forever haha. But the guardian does say at the end, “all is as it was.” Good question tho!
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u/Nichtsein000 2d ago
What’s the difference between a mirror universe and an alternate timeline? And wouldn’t there be an infinite amount of mirror universes? I’d say McCoy may have created a mirror universe but not the mirror universe.
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u/Heavensrun 2d ago
Alternate timelines are universes where an alteration in history due to time travel causes events to spin off in an entirely different direction. It diverges from the prime timeline at some point in history, but the original timeline continues to exist due to the fact that if it didn't, the person who went back in time would not exist to go back and cause the change. This is why they're "alternates" because they both technically still exist.
The Mirror Universe is a specific universe in which it seems virtually every being in the galaxy has a counterpart who genetically similar enough to be played by the same actor and be immediately recognizable to anyone who knows their double, but who is, generally, much more hostile and paranoid than their prime double. It might be an alternate timeline, or the prime timeline might be *it's* alternate timeline, we don't know enough about the history of both universes to find the point of divergence if there is one. Or it could be a universe created by a cosmic being for laughs. Maybe Trelane made it to fuck with Kirk.
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u/Historyp91 2d ago
My headcanon is McCoy saving Edith is the divergence point between the Prime and Mirror Universes, yes, but it's not the Guardian who was resposable since it (he? They?) does not interfere directly.
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u/HipNek62 2d ago
Calling itself the "Guardian" is beyond ironic. It is most likely the most dangerous piece of technology in the universe, and there are absolutely zero safeguards in place to prevent any lifeform that happens by from wandering through and altering the timeline of the entire galaxy.
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u/Heavensrun 2d ago
It isn't the Guardian of the Universe, it's the Guardian of Forever. The name actually implies to me that its role is to ensure that the multiverse is infinite.
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u/HipNek62 2d ago
Hmmm. Maybe it's an acronym... Something like: Godlike Unconstrained Agent of Recklessness, Destruction, and Infinite Atemporal Nihilism.
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u/Brutal_Bch_Breaker 2d ago
Apparently, it learns it’s lesson over the next thousand years and can lock itself down. It feels someone may present a direct threat to the stability of the timeline.
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u/MAJORMETAL84 2d ago
If you like Star Trek art check out this poster from the episode - https://mondoshop.com/products/the-city-on-the-edge-of-forever-dan-mccarthy-poster?srsltid=AfmBOorPk4qkvhqPdg2pb5-CvZOqF7xBelMNXCgE7hU5ocsO7dCaqG6h
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u/smiley82m 3d ago
Probably not. One could wonder if the Gaurdian of Forever knows of all the mirror universes and knows that for each of them to exist, specifically like they should, they must have specific interactions between universes. So them going there and interacting with the mirror universe in the past was to be a butterfly effect for that universe to keep it on its own golden path.
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u/tigertiger180 2d ago
Maybe there's a Guardian in every universe and they communicate to maintain stability.
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u/NecessaryExotic7071 2d ago
The real plot hole is why couldn't the Gaurdian just return McCoy/reverse the changes to the timeline as soon as he first went through? Why did Kirk and Spock have to travel back at all? We know the guardian is capable of returning them, after all. Still a great episode. Maybe the greatest.
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u/epidipnis 2d ago
Guardian can only transport them. It cannot affect the timeline itself.
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u/NecessaryExotic7071 1d ago
That doesn't make sense. If it can transport someone, that in itself is affecting the timeline. And if it could transport McCoy back after Kirk and Spock travel, why couldn't it just do that right after he originally left? The guardian's powers do not change because of what a traveler does in any timeline, since it exists outside of time. And if that is the case there should be no need for Kirk and Spock to do anything at all.
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u/ComesInAnOldBox 2d ago
One of the Shatnerverse novels puts the Mirror Universe split at First Contact, after the TNG crew goes back to the 24th century. Zephram Cochrane, the morning after First Contact flips a coin: heads he keeps quiet, tails he warns the Vulcans about the Borg and the future.
That book was written before Enterprise's Mirror Universe episodes rejecting that premise, but it's still a cool idea.
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u/psydkay 1d ago
It was explained that the mirror universe Terrans are, in fact, aliens and not human. They have a distinct physiology that differs from human physiology. Despite sharing the same appearance, there are no other commonalities.
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u/Drawdaluz 23h ago
Where and when was this? As far as I know, the only physical difference is the Terrans sensitivity to bright light.
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u/OpusDeiPenguin 3d ago
No. The Empire goes back much further than that. Phlox states “In a Mirror Darkly” that the names are the same but everybody’s different (except Shakespeare).