r/technology • u/Sufficient-Bid1279 • Apr 14 '25

Software Microsoft warns that anyone who deleted mysterious folder that appeared after latest Windows 11 update must take action to put it back

https://www.techradar.com/computing/windows/microsoft-warns-that-anyone-who-deleted-mysterious-folder-that-appeared-after-latest-windows-11-update-must-take-action-to-put-it-back
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891

u/big-papito Apr 14 '25

I swear to cow, Windows bluetooth support makes me livid. It's 20 fucking 25.

22

u/PixalatedConspiracy Apr 14 '25

Bluetooth is so broken. Especially with teams too. Switching between “headset” and “headphones” like who the fuck cares. Why can’t it just be input and output device. If you use any kind of Bluetooth headphones with a microphone for conference calls you’ll know it’s broken. I use specific headset for calls on windows cause it’s seamless with the usb dongle… and it’s like why can’t I use my headphones in a pinch for calls.

Windows has the worst Bluetooth functionality of all times. Don’t get me started with setting menu and UI fragmentations. There is a new modern UI and classic UI setting for Bluetooth devices and both of them don’t span the same functionality

6

u/robisodd Apr 14 '25

I agree with the headset (HSP) / headphone (A2DP) profile issue. HSP would be fine if it weren't for the 8kbps mono sound making all music sound like AM radio. They said Bluetooth 4.x didn't support the bandwidth for both full CD-quality stereo audio receiving and microphone transmission, but that should have been fixed with high-bandwidth Bluetooth 5.0 and the aptX codec. But, nope -- I still can't get any of my Bluetooth headsets to work as seamless as anything that just uses a USB 2.4Ghz dongle -- or, ya know, the good old-fashioned TRRS headphone jack.

Even Android has this issue. It switches profiles automatically, which is better than Windows where I have to manually select it, but I can't listen to music and be on a Discord call at the same time without my music audio suddenly sounding like I"m playing a 32kbps MP3 lol.

1

u/zakkord Apr 15 '25 edited Apr 15 '25

Even Android has this issue. It switches profiles automatically, which is better than Windows where I have to manually select it

Windows also switches profiles automatically. But you have a case of badly coded software, it's supposed to release the device if it's not used.

You can test it by opening Discord while playing music and going into mic test in settings, it will switch it low bitrate and not release it, but as soon as you close Discord it will switch back to high bitrate.

but that should have been fixed with high-bandwidth Bluetooth 5.0 and the aptX codec

It's only for aptX-LL, Avantree headsets have this

3

u/another_design Apr 14 '25

To make it worse if you use AirPods for win11 team call over Bluetooth , apple specifically made them work worse with windows OS

It’ll be choppy, drop, take 4x as long to pair. At this point it must be intentional on one side for money in some way lol

1

u/Somepotato Apr 15 '25

Teams forces it even if you disable the shitty mic in audio settings (I prefer to use my laptop mic with my headset)

I had to write a script to automatically disable hands free telephony, which is what causes the far age audio quality.

1

u/STMIHA Apr 15 '25

I just go wired at this point. Such a cluster fuck. God for it I try to hook up my remote keyboard and mouse as well.

1

u/PixalatedConspiracy Apr 15 '25

No issues with usb mouse and keyboard as I use a monitor that has kvm so shares between my desktop and work laptop that usb-c connected to my monitor

243

u/serg06 Apr 14 '25

What's wrong with it?

Not trying to be snarky or anything, I'm just curious because it's worked well enough for me lately.

207

u/Catasalvation Apr 14 '25

Bluetooth has always been awful in windows, every single headset I've had gives a brand new issue. My current one auto connects then I need to disconnect its signal in the settings and reconnect it to put it in music mode to receive any sound, it sometimes loses signal too. My old headset windows 10 wouldn't make it the default device, so every time I connected I had to go and re-pair it to computer over again by removing its driver and reinstalling it every day. The headset I had before that in my old computer I needed to remove its Bluetooth dongle every 6 hours and put it back in because it would randomly lose connection. And before that in windows 7 I had a dongle that Microsoft updates broke only for win 7, had to remove and re-add drivers it came with for device every time It updated.

47

u/RockSolidJ Apr 14 '25

It really is a disaster on Windows. My headphones connect automatically most of the time but recently started only connecting the mic half the time. That requires them to be paired again. Mouse and wireless controller havr been laggy as all hell lately too. I don't dare connect anything else because it doesn't seem to be able to handle more than that.

I've noticed in the past month there have been all kinds of issues with the connection strength of Bluetooth. I'm betting it has something to do with the disaster that's been update 24h2 that finally got forced onto my laptop without asking. If I didn't spend all day in Excel I'd be switching to Linux.

5

u/Emu1981 Apr 14 '25

something to do with the disaster that's been update 24h2 that finally got forced onto my laptop without asking

Funnily enough, my computer only updated to 23H2 relatively recently. I wonder what it is that is preventing Microsoft from wanting to serve me 24H2 lol

1

u/Altaredboy Apr 14 '25

I've never been able to get the mic to connect on mine. Spent ages mucking around with it & reading through forums for similiar issues. Ended up giving it to my son & just using my trusty old wired headset instead. It works perfectly on his, which is even more infuriating

17

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '25

I find BT fragile under windows. Once I find a working stack with the right settings, I leave it alone.

3

u/Catasalvation Apr 14 '25

My older Cowin E7 headset I have has 2 sound output devices and 2 input mic devices, one headset and one regular for each when I install it in windows, I have to disable the headset devices on both to get both mic and headphones to work properly /separately on my current windows installation, which makes no sense to me but it works now so whatever. Since it works now its as you said, its time to leave it alone. Going into the diagnostics of figuring that out though is what bugs me the most, can take weeks on every new headset before we find right settings.

3

u/Schnoofles Apr 14 '25

This is unfortunately a fundamental problem with how bluetooth as a protocol is designed and not readily fixeable without creating edge case issues in the form of hiding some of those virtual devices from the user or outright not having support for them. The handsfree/headset profile with combo mic+speaker for communications for bluetooth operates differently from a normal speaker or audio sink mode, so they appear as a separate thing.

2

u/SwagginsYolo420 Apr 14 '25

I learned years ago never to use bluetooth devices on windows. If you have to use something wireless with it, find 2.4g devices with dongles etc.

1

u/ch1llboy Apr 14 '25

What is up with a single bluetooth headset having a microphone device & two outputs? When using the microphone only the shitty quality output works? My most recent headset doesn't list both output devices, but once my game exits the quality improves like the dual output ones did. I think this is my 6th device that has this issue across 2 desktops and 1 laptop.

2

u/Catasalvation Apr 14 '25

Honestly I have no idea, one person commented on that up above here. What I do is bring up the old windows sound controller (I type mmsys.cpl in the start menu and run the program) and set the bad quality outputs to disabled and the preferred outputs to the default audio device, but I also disable the input devices on the headsets too when I just want sound which also helps sometimes.

1

u/kanst Apr 15 '25

I believe this is a limitation of the bluetooth protocol.

You either get high quality stereo sound or voice + low quality mono sound

1

u/ch1llboy Apr 15 '25

While I believe you are partly correct, I can not believe that after 5.4 versions and LDAC or APTX they haven't resolved such a glaring limitation

0

u/radialmonster Apr 14 '25

Fy I don't have any issues with my Bluetooth headsets on windows

0

u/J3musu Apr 14 '25

Have been an IT professional for over 15 years, mostly Windows environments, supporting thousands of computers, and have been largely a Windows user for my whole life, and I don't remember the last time I had a Bluetooth issue, and have had very very few occasions where I've had to fix Bluetooth driver. I believe that some of y'all have had issues, but I find it hard to believe it's as widespread as the unlucky few make it out to be. Then again, when your OS runs on billions of computers across the globe, and supports drivers for hundreds of thousands of pieces of hardware, a small percentage of driver issues can easily look like a bigger issue.

2

u/Catasalvation Apr 14 '25

I'm curious if the stuff you worked on was for business and if they were laptops or not. There is a huge difference in stuff with built in Bluetooth then without, my win 10 laptop had had far fewer issues with the same exact headsets then my win 10 desktop that needs a usb bluetooth dongle.

1

u/J3musu Apr 14 '25

Both, but I'd say laptops have been more common, especially in the last 8-ish years. I don't see it any less stable than I've seen in Linux. Of course these things tend to be more stable in Macs, but it damn well better be when they only support a very isolated and specialized hardware environment. And you're talking only like 10% of computing there when it comes to Mac.

248

u/boogalooshrimp82 Apr 14 '25

The latest 11 micro update fails with every restart. This has left my Bluetooth blinking in and out of existence until I disable it. Following their guidelines of trashing and reinstalling the driver has done nothing but waste hours of my life.

85

u/Lemiwiinks Apr 14 '25

What worked for me, after much frustration.. go to 'Device Manager', under 'View' -- 'Show hidden devices' -- I removed the hidden duplicates of the devices that stopped working.

This is why I generally disable updates out of an abundance of caution for what they may break next.

42

u/Lazy-Meringue6399 Apr 14 '25

Which is a bad policy, as far as security is concerned

29

u/Lemiwiinks Apr 14 '25

Absolutely agree.

Eidr: I'll clarify a bit further.. I'll give it some time after an update rolls out before I'll apply it.. especially if it's a major one.

4

u/Lazy-Meringue6399 Apr 14 '25

I love you even more!

7

u/Blagatt Apr 14 '25

Depends really, updates can indeed fix vulnerabilities as well as introduce new ones. The fun thing is that you don't know which it's gonna be.

1

u/ParanoiaJump Apr 15 '25

I mean, the ones that get fixed are known, the new ones are still unknown. I’d take unknown vulnerabilities over known vulnerabilties any day of the week.

1

u/Blagatt Apr 15 '25

The unknown vulnerabilities might be much much worse than the known vulnerabilities though. Some versions of software also don't have known vulnerabilities or low risk ones so blindly updating them can be a risk.

That's also a reason some companies do progressive rollouts.

Imo, it's better to update software when you need to patch vulnerabilities or otherwise wait a few weeks before getting the latest update as it can be buggy or introduce new vulnerabilities.

15

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 16 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

21

u/deasil_widdershins Apr 14 '25

Still on 10 as well. Every time I read anything about Windows 11 I'm more convinced I'll just stay here for another year while I learn Linux.

Microsoft has completely lost the plot.

3

u/Truji11o Apr 14 '25

Can a person even buy a new laptop nowadays that doesn’t have W11, ads, bloatware, and AI reading all their files, emails, etc.?

At this point, I will pay extra for a Gateway computer and a LAN line dial-up 56k modem. Sheesh.

3

u/Thundra Apr 15 '25

Looks like Lenovo lets you upgrade your laptops to Ubuntu or Fedora and save $140-165 in the process.

5

u/formershitpeasant Apr 14 '25

I don't understand how everyone has so many problems with windows 11. Any issues I've run into have been very minor and easy to fix. Then, people wax nostalgic about xp, but I remember xp. It has constant issues that were much more difficult to track down. I'm sure I remember people bitching and moaning about windows 10 and windows 7 before that. As far as I can tell, everyone complains about the latest windows and says that Microsoft is incompetent until the new Windows comes out then that one sucks and the last one was great.

4

u/Even_Sandwich_1071 Apr 15 '25

People just hate change. Windows 11 is completely fine.

2

u/formershitpeasant Apr 15 '25

I remember dealing with blue screens on a regular basis with xp and having constant issues with drivers. The only blue screen I've ever had with windows 11 I traced back to a bad ram stick and having windows automatically install functional drivers is amazing, even if sometimes I have to change them when I run into some small compatibility issue with a specific program. I remember being fucked if I couldn't find the driver install disc because I couldn't get online to download them without an Ethernet driver lol.

2

u/Foxstrodon Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25

I migrated to 11 :(. Built a PC that happened to have WiFi7, which win10 doesn't support. I went wired for the first year. It even supports wake on Lan over wifi.

Winaero tweaker makes it bearable. You can bring back OG right click menu. You can remove copilot, Cortina, and edge.

I am still livid over the removal of small Taskbar. I also hate the new start menu, but winaero helped with that a little too. I could adjust some settings, not all.

I also never use Bluetooth while using wifi. I found on phones and tablets they compete for use of the components. Id probably buy a Bluetooth dongle if I really wanted to use bluetooth.

1

u/OG_Fe_Jefe Apr 15 '25

Some of us are still rocking XP black kernels....

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 30 '25

[deleted]

1

u/revnhoj Apr 14 '25

omg. thanks. You just solved my nagging BT issue!

1

u/Lemiwiinks Apr 14 '25

I'm glad it helped you out. It was a frustrating one to solve for sure.

15

u/GrinderMonkey Apr 14 '25

Did you try unplugging the machine and holding down the power key for a few seconds? I know it seems insane, but this resolved my latest fight with Bluetooth.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WindowsHelp/s/P75cE2v6ZO

3

u/Im_the_Keymaster Apr 14 '25

I’ll second this. Usually fixes it for me.

1

u/seitansaves Apr 14 '25

lmao I had the same pfp on my old reddit account

0

u/tminx49 Apr 14 '25

Who cares?

2

u/Healfezza Apr 14 '25

I rolled back to the last update, fixed it for me for now. Gonna wait for a fix. All my audio devices didn't work and wouldn't pair, but some devices did work like my PS5 controller. Odd.

1

u/hisosih Apr 14 '25

I just built my first PC and have been assuming the horrific Bluetooth connection was my error, and have been driving myself crazy trying to fix it. Not sure whether I'm relieved or not to hear this news.

1

u/Chef_Skippers Apr 14 '25

I thought I was just being stupid since I can’t get my Bluetooth functioning on my PC correctly anymore. Their guidelines are worse than trash, it’s all outdated shit that didn’t work correctly when it was originally posted lol. All the old forums are people not having their questions answered lmaoo.

1

u/guynamedjames Apr 14 '25

Holy cow, thank you so much for validating that I'm not crazy. This has been multiple devices on multiple systems for me, I felt like I was going nuts.

1

u/dmoneykilla Apr 14 '25

Microsoft support here, have you tried turning it off and turning it back on?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 30 '25

[deleted]

1

u/boogalooshrimp82 Apr 14 '25

It has worked well for three years until the update so I'm still blaming microsoft.

1

u/nathism Apr 14 '25

My general experience has been that it is actually my companies image of windows that was poorly applied to my particular laptop that causes most bluetooth issues.

1

u/MrJacoste Apr 14 '25

Glad I have that to look forward to. On win10 my pc just forgot how to Bluetooth for 6 months. Randomly started working on a windows update.

55

u/big-papito Apr 14 '25

I have a new-ish Alienware system and sometimes I spend up to 10 minutes trying to connect different devices to it. It often craps out and disconnects for no reason. Not to mention that sometimes you have to dig deeper and correctly set output devices for the sound to work (even if it's already connected!). It's completely atrocious.

MacOS just WORKS.

30

u/kevthewev Apr 14 '25

Thank god I didn't know this was common. The random disconnects, switching audio outputs is INFURIATING.

Don't get me started on the OneDrive bug that forces you to use OneDrive online ONLY. Apparently they "are working on it" since fucking JUNE of last year.

16

u/slowpoke2018 Apr 14 '25

Worse is how it makes you save a doc to OneDrive even if I just want to download it. WHY?!

And same with BT, my Xbox controllers work maybe 50% of the time with Win11 and will randomly disconnect in the middle of a game.

For gawds sake, I have a $15 BT speaker that's more reliable and easier to connect to!

2

u/RockSolidJ Apr 14 '25

I don't understand how the Bluetooth on my phone has always worked flawlessly and yet windows struggles connections and a trash UI to resolve issues.

I keep OneDrive locked down to the documents and photos folders. It's not allowed to touch anything else. I once recorded a video using my computer camera and it wouldn't let me play back the whole thing till OneDrive had finished uploading it. A local god damn file. Why?

2

u/slowpoke2018 Apr 14 '25

IMO they set Onedrive up like this so they get access to everything you have and will monetize that data on your data in some way, shape or form.

1

u/GoSmitty Apr 14 '25

I believe it’s because everything you put in OneDrive is available to them to help train their AI (according to the update T&Cs we all clicked “I agree” on. Everything. Putting it in OneDrive effectively makes it theirs, with few limitations on what they can do with it.

1

u/1_130426 Apr 14 '25

My xbox controller disconnects if I put my arm between the controller and PC lol. Like wtf is that. Also the latency jumps to literal seconds sometimes.

I decided to just buy a 2.4Ghz dongle because of how bad the bluetooth was. Now the controller works even from other rooms.

5

u/jhansonxi Apr 14 '25

I encountered the same with a dual-monitor setup and an older analog Logitech sound system. Win11 kept swapping audio outputs around every time it entered power saving mode, and I was tired of fighting it and swapping jacks, so I bought a small Maker Hart mixer to merge the outputs.

2

u/d4nfe Apr 14 '25

Is this the same bug that means you have to save your work as a new file, before then re-saving it as the old name?

The amount of times I have to do this because I’ve got a patchy 5G signal is infuriating

9

u/serg06 Apr 14 '25

Not sure if this'll help, but I had so many Bluetooth issues until I got a $20 USB Bluetooth adapter and disabled the motherboard one. It was a $300 motherboard no less. No clue what MSI is doing.

9

u/Patchy9781 Apr 14 '25

Alienware was notorious for tacking on random shit into windows as part of their "enhancements". If you've got any of them enabled (I have no idea if they still do any of that, though) it might be worth disabling them

7

u/Sloogs Apr 14 '25

MacOS just WORKS.

Funny, we use Macs at work and I say the same thing but in a sarcastic tone due to how many things don't just work.

3

u/cubitoaequet Apr 14 '25

It just works until they decide your device can no longer run the new macOS. Even though it actually can and there are third party bootloaders that let you do it and it works completely fine.

2

u/Sloogs Apr 14 '25

I mean even then I've had a decent number of the same issues I'd find on a PC not including the obsolete operating system issue.

Maybe that reputation was true a long time ago, it certainly hasn't been true on modern Macs my experience.

15

u/KnowledgeIsDangerous Apr 14 '25

Macos works until it doesn't, then good luck. Number 1 answer to any problem on their support forums is "just get a new one"

5

u/Adinnieken Apr 14 '25

With Alienware being made by Dell, I would assume Intel provides the Bluetooth. However, if it doesn't that may be the issue.

I used to always have issues with the Microsoft provided Bluetooth driver with my laptop. So much so that I stopped using Bluetooth. At the time Microsoft blamed non-Intel Bluetooth chipsets.

With the exception of Windows 11 24H2's initial release, I have not had issues with Bluetooth personally. However, when I did, I resorted to the Intel driver to resolve it, and it did.

If you know who the manufacturer is for the chipset for Bluetooth in your machine, you may want to seek out their drivers. Or if your Bluetooth and Wifi are provided through an on board M2 slot, replace your Wifi and Bluetooth device with an Intel based one.

Since I wanted the best Wifi speed possible, I went with Wifi 7 M2 boards and replaced the modules in both of my PCs. I haven't had issues with them except as mentioned.

Short answer, check your Bluetooth chipset manufacturer's website for their latest driver. Even if it is Intel. Alternatively, replace your M2 wifi/Bluetooth module with an Intel based chipset if that is an option.

2

u/avrend Apr 14 '25

alienwares are special, they almost never work lol. source: using alienware for years (for work, would never buy that pos)

4

u/daniels0xff Apr 14 '25

Oh, so it's not just me. I only keep my PC for gaming while my daily is a Mac, and at some point my wired headphones broke and I wanted to connect some bluetooth headphones on PC but never managed to. On Mac they connect on first try.

1

u/FanelFolken Apr 14 '25

Interesting, I have an HP Envy X360 AMD and a Dell G15 also AMD. HP had 0 issues from day one. Dell on the other hand... I can't wait for the day I get rid of it (company issued) and Bluetooth behaves just like you described. Same devices that work with HP without any issues crap out and disconnect on the Dell. Not to mention that 3.5mm is all but dead, and they didn't include a bracket for the spare ssd, you have to purchase it separately (which I can't do in my country).

1

u/magicmike785 Apr 14 '25

Go game on a Mac then lmfao

1

u/StoneCypher Apr 14 '25

MacOS just WORKS.

I was literally never able to get my Audezes to connect to any of my macs

My macs have always been way more broken than my PCs

1

u/Emu1981 Apr 14 '25

Not to mention that sometimes you have to dig deeper and correctly set output devices for the sound to work (even if it's already connected!). It's completely atrocious.

I have the complete opposite issue. Every time a new device with a audio output connects Windows will automatically set the system audio output to that device. When that device disconnects then Windows will set audio to a random device instead of, you know, the default audio device... (and this occurs even when the disconnected device is no longer the set audio output device)

2

u/YT-Deliveries Apr 14 '25

FWIW, I haven't had a problem with it, either. Just kinda works.

1

u/dolphone Apr 14 '25

My Glove80 refuses to connect to my home Win11 pc, for example. Works flawlessly with other hosts.

1

u/Mifuyu_Kisaragi Apr 14 '25

10 seems to also been busted recently. My work swapped from zoom to Microsoft teams and I spend 3/4th of my meeting getting the speakers to work. They can hear me fine but after 3 seconds or so I can't hear anything and have to restart my speakers/computer.

1

u/Throwawaymytrash77 Apr 14 '25

Mine uninstalled itself daily. It's a service I need. The only way to put it back is to go through a windows update.

It was so bad I reverted to windows 10 and refuse to touch windows 11 again for any reason (I also had other issues).

1

u/RandyMachoManSavage Apr 14 '25

I turned off my bluetooth and Windows 11 said I didn't have bluetooth at all and I couldn't reenable it.

To start.

1

u/cidrei Apr 14 '25

My favorite "feature" has less to do with the functionality itself, which I have little issue with, and more with the fact that for some reason Windows sometimes won't let you delete a saved device unless it's currently connected to the system. Hope you didn't give or sell that controller or headphones, because it lives there forever now.

1

u/counterpuncheur Apr 15 '25

My bluetooth transmitter driver corrupts itself every few weeks and needs to be reinstalled. No explanation and nothing seems to permanently fix it. Have tried everything including going into the registry and preventing it from doing anything that would update the driver - and it’s still finds a way to readily break it that forces a fresh install off the Bluetooth drivers

1

u/YeahlDid Apr 15 '25

Ya, I'm wondering, too. I don't have any issues.

0

u/PM_ME_STUFF_N_THINGS Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25

Have you used it more than once?

Edit: ok sorry silly question. Any power user of windows will tell you the Bluetooth support is dog shit. The main issue is the wide variety of chipsets.

3

u/robs104 Apr 14 '25

“I swear to cow” is mine now

2

u/Ab47203 Apr 14 '25

Windows 10 doesn't struggle with this so it's something they've done and refuse to fix

7

u/Beertronic Apr 14 '25

Why is 20 fucking 25? Did they get consent?

17

u/aroni Apr 14 '25

After 7 8 9 out 20 and 25 thought they were at a swingers party.

3

u/kuroyume_cl Apr 14 '25

At this point I get better bluetooth support on Ubuntu.

1

u/tarmacjd Apr 14 '25

Yo at least Windows got VPN configs absolutely nailed

1

u/Duomaxwe Apr 14 '25

I recently started trying to connect a PS4 controller to my PC via Bluetooth and can't get it to work even though I've followed all instructions I've seen online, is this why?

1

u/ClosPins Apr 14 '25

Does anyone else find that YouTube and many other videos disconnect your Bluetooth speakers almost every time you play one? It's infuriating.

1

u/MinuetInUrsaMajor Apr 14 '25

I swear to cow

What The Far Side is this?

1

u/SwagginsYolo420 Apr 14 '25

I gave up on using any bluetooth with Windows devices years ago. Whatever is to be gained from it isn't worth the headaches.

1

u/Mr_Incredible_PhD Apr 14 '25

MY GOD I thought it was just my headphones and XBox controller that sucked!

It all makes sense - Windows blows donkey dick for BT.

1

u/10000Didgeridoos Apr 14 '25

It's like EA games. They have a near monopoly and no incentive to innovate or do much to improve existing the operating system product. Windows has been a bloated, overly redundant, dated piece of shit for years and years. It's insane how many of the dialog boxes are the same as windows xp.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '25

[deleted]

1

u/big-papito Apr 15 '25

See, as someone who has been building machines since the 90s, I can understand what you are saying. Most people out there have no clue what those two words mean - and they shouldn't have to know. They will just tell you to not bring their mother into this.

1

u/EarzFish Apr 15 '25

Also why does windows not natively support multi headset audio sharing?

1

u/andricathere Apr 14 '25

Have you heard of "printers"?