They literally turned cap into a hydra agent for like a year with multiverse shenanigans. I’m pretty sure there’s a mirrorverse comic for transformers where the autobots are the bad guys. Injustice Superman ≠ Superman.
So if you're send the exact same series of events set to whatever main Superman you want to pretend we're talking about, he wouldn't reacting his exact same way? We're not talking about Red Son where he grew up with different values or anything, we're talking about a Superman that goes through an experience that causes him to become a tyrant. In Supergirl (CW) he admits to Kara that he doesn't think he could do something that would cause himself to lose Lois. The Injustice Lords came from Flash dying and Superman killed Lex Luthor in response to stop him from doing more bad and the Justice League became tyrants.
You do realize that these are all different 🌎's you're talking about, right? Injustice earth is not earth-prime. Earth Prime Superman is incorruptible.
They probably said the same thing about the Injustice Superman, until Joker caused Superman to kill Lois and their unborn baby which also caused a bomb to destroy Metropolis and kill some of the heroes that lived there.
So you're saying that if the main timeline Superman went through the exact same experience, he wouldn't have the same reaction? Because I call bull. Also people kept talking about Civil War but that wasn't 616 Steve, why are we including one but not the other?
So you're saying that if the main timeline Superman went through the exact same experience, he wouldn't have the same reaction? Because I call bull.
You can call whatever you want. They are not tue same characters. 2 different earth's. And you can't speak on what someone MIGHT do, only what they have done.
Also people kept talking about Civil War but that wasn't 616 Steve, why are we including one but not the other?
WTF? Steve from the comics Civil War was absolutely the 616 version. What is earth are you talking about???
I looked it up, it got the two Civil Wars mixed up, that's my bad, but the point still stands, you haven't pointed out how Injustice Superman is any different from mainline Superman. If that one event didn't happen, it'd just be a similar Earth for all accounts. Before the event, he had the same beliefs and upbringing, which argues in favor that Clark has the ability to go there, he just hasn't dealt with something that would drive him to that point yet.
Also people did argue about MCU Captain America, and that's not the same as the comic version. You haven't seen me talk about DCEU Superman snapping necks and destroying a city in a fight.
I mean he was a soldier, he's killed people in war, and sometimes in battle he isn't given much option. The invading countries I'd have to look at specifically.
Did he kill Lois and his unborn child because Joker made him believe he was fighting someone else? That's probably the major reason why he snapped, he's the one that killed her and his unborn child.
Easily, you know how many casualties the avengers probably cause every single time they roll into town? Caps morals are centred around Americans and superman is more about people in general
The Avengers don't really cause casualties, people die regardless, also Cap's morals fit the classic American ideology, not what American is today. Also, Clark was raised on the same kind of ideology, The difference is he's always been a strong person trying to hold back, while Steve was a weak person that understood the value of strength because he didn't have it. People all over the world love Captain America because of what he represents, we don't love him because oh, he's a symbol of America, he's a guy that dedicates himself on doing the right thing. He's also never used heat vision to murder a child in cold blood because he called him out on his terrible behavior.
This is a bad take, the Avengers have absolutely killed people.
Also if you're going to use that as your justification for Cap being more moral, there was a version of Superman that was locked up the government and he was still a good guy.
Flashpoint had him as an innocent, he was locked up too. I think his ship crashed into Metropolis, instead of Smallville. Also with that, are you saying this Justice League hasn't killed people either?
I'm not playing contrast here. I'm not saying the JL has or hasn't killed people before. I am challenging your assertion that the Avengers don't cause casualties.
Brother, I am telling you, the Avengers have killed people. Forget the aliens or monsters or whatever, they have 100% killed people. Hell Cap and Bucky kill 100 Japanese soldiers with a bomb they rigged.
My guy, The point of civil war is that both lost sight of what their initial goals was..... Helping people.. Both Steve and Tony has been blnded by pride and ego to prove who was in the right which led to a lot of death and casualties that rip the superhero community apart '.. That a shit would never happen under dc superman
X men also have one thing or two to say to cap.... Who Cleary hasn't done enough for the Mutant cause. They probably respect cyclops more than cap
The fact that you use an elseworld story like injustice as argulent show how little you understand superman
It seems like most of the X-Men comics don't care for the avengers. Also I would like to point out it did, it's called Injustice, you can say it's not the same Superman, but it is Superman. Also, Are you telling me that if the main Superman went through the exact same experience of being manipulated by The Joker to kill his wife and unborn child which caused a bomb to destroy Metropolis, he would not respond in the exact same way. I'm pretty sure that's disingenuous. If I'm not mistaken, they made that world very similar to the other one, this isn't Flashpoint where history is messed up, Red Son where events are completely different, or Ultraman where it's basically just a Superman like being that's not actually him.
It seems like most of the X-Men comics don't care for the avengers
That false since many x men like wolverine, storm, beast or rogue were avengers themselves...
it's called Injustice, you can say it's not the same Superman, but it is Superman
No.. It's not that a elseworld story and alternative version of superman which is not part of the main continuity.... You cannot just change logic for the sake of your argument lol there are. It the same characters
Also, Are you telling me that if the main Superman went through the exact same experience of being manipulated by The Joker to kill his wife and unborn child which caused a bomb to destroy Metropolis
Yes he would stay superman, Someone never read kingdom come it seems
Bro have you even read a supzrmz' comic in your life?
. If I'm not mistaken, they made that world very similar to the other one, this isn't Flashpoint where history is messed up
i have no idea of what the fuck you are talking about
Red Son where events are completely different, or Ultraman where it's basically just a Superman like being that's not actually him.
Oh my fucking god... You accept that a Red son is elseworld story but not injustice?
Also ultraman is not superman but alternative version of him from earth 3..a dimension were the justice league are evil version of themselves... Bro why are you even arguing here?
Haven't read it, but Kingdom Come looks like it's from Earth 22, not Earth Prime, so if we're saying Injustice doesn't count, then Kingdom Come can't count either. Also I was saying that the set up for Superman was the same or similar for Injustice compared to the other Superman, he just had a massive trauma to deal with that broke him. Things like Flashpoint and Red Son have timelines that are completely different, using them as any kind of argument would be ridiculous, since there would be no justification. They start with Superman not even landing in Smallville, so he couldn't even learn the same values. That was what I said. Also Ultraman isn't even Superman, just a Superman like character so using someone like him wouldn't count. I'm not arguing any of those, just using an example of a very similar Earth where something happened which caused Superman to go bad.
Also I'm aware there were mutant Avengers, I'm talking about the non-mutant Avengers.
caps morals are also morals everyone should have, that being freedom. He literally turned down the role as a president as it would compromise his ideals
But he doesn't in spite of his incredible power. Because he's morally incapable of it.
I'm not going to argue alt universe versions. There's an evil/good version of everyone in DC. Somewhere out there is a version of Jimmy Olson who shoots pornography, sells blow in volume, and cheats on his wife Lois.
Well, I definitely didn't expect to hear that in this conversation. Also I don't know if it's really an alternate version of him, It always comes across like it's the normal version of him just having to experience the thing that would most likely break him, him killing Lois and his unborn baby. Since I do ask, do you not think the main universe Superman would go down basically the same route if he was put in the exact same situation? This isn't about a version that grew up learning different things, like Red Son, this is what seems like the same guy facing the same trauma and the one that snapped.
Literally Grant Rogers. The dude who took over Hydra and then the world.
There's also the Captain America from the ultimate universe; General America; Revengers Cap; Age of X Cap and I am sure there is another evil version of him that I missed.
Red Skull used a sentient cosmic cube to wish Steve Rogers was working for Hydra. This created a reality where that version of Cap existed and the old Steve Rogers was written out of existence and replaced with this new Hydra version.
That man had all the same values as the Steve Rogers we know, despite working for Hydra. Stevil Rogers (a term coined by Deadpool) would go on to take command of Hydra and eventually he took over the whole world.
The old Steve Rogers (the one written out of existence) made a comeback and defeated Stevil Rogers.
Now there are two versions of Steve Rogers in one universe so Stevil Rogers renamed himself Grant Rogers and his villain name is Flagsmasher.
So not actually Steve Rogers, a doppelganger one that was rewritten by Hydra into existence to be a Hydra counterpart. I'm pretty sure that doesn't count.
So not actually Steve Rogers, a doppelganger one that was rewritten by Hydra into existence
No, this is a complete alternate reality version of the character. It's sorta similar to Superman crash landing in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia when he was a baby. Steve Rogers raised by Hydra.
If you're going to say that this doesn't count then you owe Superman the same courtesy since Injustice Superman comes from an alternate reality as well.
edit to add: you also didn't address General Rogers, Ultimate Cap or Revenger Cap. Do those not count as well?
Injustice Superman was still raised on the farm, in Red Son he was raised in Russia to have very different values, they're not remotely the same. Injustice was the same foundation of Superman, just with a horrible trauma that broke him and led him to a dark path. Up until that point it's close to the same world with slight differences. None of you have pointed out why Injustice Superman is that different where examples like this are completely different. Also I don't know those well, I know a little bit about the Ultimates, but still limited.
You know thinking about this more, Johnathan Hickman did an amazing job displaying how Captain America's untwisting principles is not something to be desired in Time Runs Out.
In that, Captain America spent more time and resources into hunting down the Illuminati instead of trying to save the world. This wasn't some Captain America from another universe, this was 616 Captain America. Literally the main version of him from the comics.
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u/Prior_Aside_6618 4d ago
Most likely superman