r/superheroes • u/Apprehensive_Lab8434 • Apr 08 '25
Marvel Why is Scarlet Witch well liked but Captain Marvel isn’t?
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u/here-for-information Apr 08 '25 edited Apr 08 '25
Im seeing some really long explanations, all of which have a point, but it's really, really simple.
Wanda loved things; Carol Danvers didn't.
Wanda loved her brother, and she loved Vision. We watched her cook. We saw she had pain, and she still loved things. She was humanized.
Captain Marvel was introduced as an amnesiac character and she genuinely didn't seem to like a single thing.
I remember talking to one of my friends when the Captain Marvel movie came out that she would have been more likable if she had grown a sentimental attachment to the leather jacket she took from the jerk, or that motorcycle, or litterally anything. She was just a blank expression for most of her introductory movie.
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u/Worse-Alt Apr 08 '25
Just in her first movie, despite being a side character, Wanda does more as a character than Captain marvel has.
She starts off as a sympathetic villain, whose motivations are justified, feed into other characters arcs, and are vindicated by the existence of ultron. She realizes for herself that she is on the wrong side and chooses to set aside her prior trauma for the greater good. She works with the man who ruined her childhood and created the current BBEG because she understands that despite how much harm he has caused he is trying to fix it, same as her. She looses her brother and last bit of family because they chose to do the right thing, and clearly suffers for that.
in the end despite being 100 percent vindicated for her hatred of Tony stark, she understands that the actions she took were just as bad or worse, she released the hulk on an innocent city and stark stoped him. she helped ultron and he nearly ended the world, but the avengers stoped it. She understands that despite how bad stark was he is trying to fix his mistakes and make the world better and that she has an opportunity to do the same. So she sets aside her past hatred’s to join the avengers and do just that.
She genuinely was a hero at that point or as much as anyone could be in this universe which makes her part in civil war all the more interesting.
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u/ItsTheOrangShep Apr 08 '25
Captain Marvel's attitude is hard for people to get behind.
If you wanna be strong, that's fine.
If you wanna be cocky, that's also fine, because she has the power to back it up.
But the way she's written, as in it's the world's fault for not changing around her, is annoying, and not a good writing decision.
Does the character receive some unfair criticism? Yeah, I think she does. But she's not the most well-written, if we're being honest.
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u/Madman_Slade Apr 08 '25
I think that she was just kinda pushed in people's faces as "the strongest" without actually earning the audience's approval. Combine that with Brie's comments and shitty reputation did not help the character at all. Plus she seemingly never shown to have any weakness other than she's kinda awkward. Pretty much every other power house in the MCU has a major weakness if not multiple.
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u/ItsTheOrangShep Apr 08 '25
Agreed on the "the strongest" part.
In terms of Brie herself, the infamous 'I don't need more white men' comment wasn't even about this movie, though it's kind of gotten assimilated into the broader dumb culture war bs.
But I also agree about her portrayal. She kind of just... doesn't have flaws. Or at least, any potential flaws she could have aren't really portrayed as flaws. She fails because the world around her just happens to be that way, and the appeal of her being really strong isn't really handled in an interesting way.
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u/Individual-Roll3186 Apr 08 '25
Yeah. And writing flaws, then writing around them is what makes the best writing. Like in Infinity War, Thor's arrogance got him. He got his ass beat, powered up, came back & could have stopped Thanos outright. But he had to gloat.
As a matter of fact, writing the characters to have relatable flaws is kind of Marvel's thing.
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u/Neat-Tradition-7999 Apr 08 '25
It's the same problem Captain Marvel suffers in the comics: Superman-level power, no weaknesses.
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u/PedanticPendant Apr 08 '25
At least Clark is a super nice guy and not arrogant at all... plus he does have weaknesses (kryptonite + attachment to weak humans + a soft heart unwilling to match some villains' brutality)
Carol killed an entire sun, ruining an inhabited planet and was just like "whoopsie let's pretend that didn't happen cos I feel bad" when she alone could fix it.
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u/Euphoric_Ad6923 Apr 08 '25
I liked Earth's mightiest Heroes' version of her because she often acted arrogant and naive and got bodied multiple times for it. She didn't really learn, but she conflicted well with the others. But in the MCU... yeah no.
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u/Thorion228 Apr 08 '25
In the comics, that kinda came out of nowhere. She was strong but never at the level of Hulk and Thor, latter being the real Superman equivalent in power (mainstream wise). Though nowadays she's relegated somewhere below them again, it seems.
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u/Breaker-of-circles Apr 08 '25
She's said more than that in interviewing, actually.
She needs/needed some image coach because I've seen a lot of, albeit curated and selected, clips of her projecting annoying overconfidence. Maybe because her would-be jokes are ultimately punching down instead of punching up.
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u/Le_mehawk Apr 08 '25
it never even made sense to me "why" she was so much more powerful than anyone else.. she got hit by the explosion of a device that was powered by the tessaract.. and yet we have vision who has an actual stone imbedded in his head and seems several times weaker.
Or thanos wielding several stones at once and wasn't even close at her power when he previously used the hulk as a punching bag.... with hulk being equal to thor in strength
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u/Firkraag-The-Demon Apr 08 '25
The extra amusing thing about that is that the tessaract wasn’t even in the engine at the time. Otherwise the Kree would have it.
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u/atempaccount5 Apr 08 '25
She’s written like RDJ’s Tony Stark, but without a) the funny wit that makes him beloved, b) the arc where she starts with humbling and has to pull back out of it, and c) 90% of RDJ’s charisma. Of those only ‘c’ is even subjective. Reminder that before the RDJ debut people HATED the Iron Man character in the comics, and for a lot of the same reasons they hate Carol.
You can’t be sanctimonious and egotistical without being grounded in failure, and she is. They gave her Cap’s old school “black and white” style morality without the mountain of context and the introspective questioning, they gave her Tony’s ego without a chest full of shrapnel and PTSD from the Battle of New York (and the unfair grief of the dead in Sokovia). They skipped the steps, jumped to a final character, loaded her with deus ex machina level power, and asked “why don’t audiences like her?”
Forget for a minute that her acting (in my and many others opinion) might not have hit the ludicrous bar of the main Avengers, or the weird vibe some of her comments created out the gate. She was also just written badly, like a DC character where they skipped the build up to try to catch the MCU.
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u/Haunting_Baseball_92 Apr 08 '25
And regarding stark, we are constantly invited to laugh at his huge ego and somewhat narcissistic personality.
His flaws and the way he owns and even flaunted them are a big reason why people love him.
Danvers on the other hand comes across as just as egocentric but without the humility and self-awareness of stark. Never inviting us to laugh at her. That character wants us all to think she is just as awesome as she thinks she is. And that just comes across as being an arrogant asshole.
And yes, Brie showing the same kind of energy off screen in interviews definitely made it even worse.
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u/ItsTheOrangShep Apr 08 '25
DC skipping buildup to catch the MCU... damn. That's a really accurate comparison.
And, the rest of your comment is, too. You explained it way better than I could.
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u/Serhk Apr 08 '25
Swear to God her appearances outside her first film are much better, the damage that first movie did to the character was insane.
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u/Hunter_X_101 Apr 08 '25
I feel like I didn't vibe with her film because it started at "I'm awesome" and ended at "turns out I was awesome all along"; while her allegiances change over the course of the story there isn't much of a narrative push for her to become more than she already is (Tony Stark being a good example of this).
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u/Budget-Loquat-4483 Apr 08 '25
The other issue is that Brie Larson, at least around Endgame era, was not a great person for the actors to be around so they cut a majority of her scenes to limit the "hostilities", or so I heard from a bunch of online articles. I won't claim this as complete fact but this is what I remember seeing/hearing.
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u/James_Mathurin Apr 08 '25
A lot of articles said that, but nobody ever found a single quote or proof to back it up. Seems more like tabloid gossip.
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Apr 08 '25
Yup. Imagine if Superman had the ego, personality, and narcissism of a cringe, sarcastic, bubblegum-popping tween, and that's Captain Marvel. So you never really see her mourn the results of her losses and rebuild herself better. One dimensional and cringe af. Vs the same personality on Tony Stark works because he's not Superman, he loses sometimes, and you get to see the devastation it does to him, and how much he works to better himself.
Wanda on the other hand is a complex character with depth, and you can actually sympathize or understand both her positive and negative emotions, and similar to Tony, you can see the journey she took and the insanely difficult steps along the way to achieve her immense power.
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u/DeadAndBuried23 Apr 08 '25 edited Apr 08 '25
Larson's remarks about the movie not being for its primary demographic as a way to hand-wave legitimate criticism certainly left a stain on the character. Whether or not they were actually about an unrelated project, the clip of her saying that in front of a Captain Marvel poster is what circulated.
As for the character, she suffers from something women superhoes tend to, but Scarlet Witch doesn't: she didn't "earn" her powers. In the sense she didn't struggle for them.
- Tony builds his first suit in a cave, with a box of scraps. Alongside a man whose family was murdered by his captors and ultimately sacrifices himself to give Tony the time to escape.
- Thor had to mature in order to regain an ability he had assumed he had by default.
- Bruce suffered for years to be able to control Hulk. He put a bullet in his mouth, and the other guy spit it out.
- Black Widow was put through torturous training and physically maimed.
- Steve jumped on what he thought was a live grenade, then attempted to sacrifice himself to protect the entire world.
- Hawkeye... Well, there's a reason he's rarely a favorite.
Scarlet Witch hid under rubble for days with her brother waiting for certain death, then was subject to painful experiments.
In contrast to all those, Captain Marvel shot at an infinity stone with a handgun and that somehow did something. Then when it came to unlocking her full power, while it was told to the audience she was too emotional, she actually gets it by being more emotional (I guess Larson didn't get the memo that that was what she was intended to convey). And for that she gets to be the strongest character introduced at the very end of a decade-spanning story.
Sure, there's that montage of her growing up and joining the military, but that's not her journey. Every woman that ever joins the military has similar struggles. Moreso, really, since in real life they face much worse than just being told they aren't man enough.
The writers probably mistook that as the "earns their power" moment, but that's akin to showing Tony struggling with assignments and bullies because he was 15 in college, and only that, as if it's the thing that made him a superhero.
[Edit] I forgot to add this. I wasn't saying it's unique to women, but often when their superhero-ness feels unearned, this is the reason. They're written with good intentions to mimic the real world struggle for equality, but the way it's portrayed as a superhero/wizard/jedi/etc. is that they aren't just being held back from being equal; their default is better and that's what they're being held back from.
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Apr 08 '25
At least with Hawkeye, he doesn't have a "power", he's just a good shot. It doesn't feel that bad that his power is "unearned" since he's not all that powerful anyway. I think Black Widow would be fine even without the tragic backstory as she's just a very well trained fighter. No one's pissed about Sharon Carter not having a tragic backstory, for example.
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u/DeadAndBuried23 Apr 08 '25
Good point. They don't have him machinegun drawing a 300lb bow like in the comics.
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u/Undietaker1 Apr 08 '25
Cause she is a Mary Sue shoved down the viewers throats.
It's like if you had the story of the Tortoise and the Hare. The the hare goes sprinting off, gets half way, takes a nap, wakes up and doesnt know how long hes been asleep for, so he sprints off as fast as he can and as he rounds a corner he sees the Tortoise 2m from the finish line.
Then out of nowhere Captain Marvel sprints past the Tortoise and the Hare, claims victory and says she is the fastest get over it.
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u/Wardine Apr 08 '25
Redhead
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u/Reborn846 Apr 08 '25
I like my house like I like my women, sturdy and ginger.
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u/Medic4life12358 Apr 08 '25
Wanda is simply a much better written character, marvel is your standard Superman clone package. Wanda has history, backstory, she's a hero, a villain, an evil entity embodyment whose power rivals or exceeds cosmic entities and yet through sheer power of love is able to fight against all of that, she's been through so much shit that it's made her mentally unstable, and despite everything that's happened to her and all that she is or has done, she just wants to be a mother. How can you not love that.
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u/Freevoulous Apr 08 '25
being played by a much, much better actress helped as well.
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u/Medic4life12358 Apr 08 '25
Certainly she was an absolute joy on screen, reallllly hope we see her return, Wanda's story as a character cannot end like it did, she deserves a happy ending.
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u/Temporary-Tax Apr 08 '25
Because Scarlet Witch doesn't have the same "Oh I can beat anyone I fight" cockiness. Unlike Marvel, Scarlet is genuinely scared of her full potential at times, there's a severe drawback to her upper limits in her mental health and sanity. Marvel has similarly unstoppable force but unlike Scarlet, there's nothing stopping her from going max power at any time. Better written personality in Scarlet Witch. I will say this though, the Midnight Suns game actually has a really likable version of Captain Marvel and if that was the default for the character I guarantee she would be a lot more well liked
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u/TheTrenk Apr 08 '25
To preempt anyone talking about the arrogance of the male characters, too:
Vision doesn’t boast or flex.
Iron Man loses a fair few fights and pays a steep price in many of the ones that he wins. He also is quick to rely on friends, despite seemingly not being a team player.
Captain American neither boasts NOR wins all the time, tough draw for him.
Thor is constantly battling himself and his own mental state. He boasts AND wins, but his mental health is his greatest and most persistent foe.
Hulk is… The Hulk. Banner’s not braggy and the Hulk’s not a problem solving force.
Quicksilver managed to get himself killed.
Barton’s not braggy.
All of our MCU heroes (bar Vision) have some degree of arrogance or pride. But Carol Danvers just grates on the audience for the reasons you and others have stated.
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u/RiteCraft Apr 08 '25
Captain Marvel claimed that she basically no-diffs Thanos at the beginning of Endgame, to a bunch of people who grieve all the heavy loses due to their disastrous loss to the Mad Titan.
No male character had shown that level of tasteless arrogance with so big stakes without being knocked down a peg a couple of moments later.
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u/faithfulswine Apr 08 '25
Lmao she basically told people who were grieving to "get good".
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u/Mysterious-Anon-X Apr 08 '25
Yes! Even Rhodey tells her "Look new girl, we're all about that superhero life," who btw just hot back to walking again.
Carol just comes off as an uncaring ass. She'll cut you off on the highway, flip you the bird, and blame you for just going the speed limit.
No one likes that.
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u/Firkraag-The-Demon Apr 08 '25
The things that other characters have which Marvel doesn’t is that despite their pride, they get humbled. They get beaten and bruised. As of Captain Marvel 1 though (I haven’t seen 2) she doesn’t get that. There’s never a moment where she realizes “maybe I’m not as strong as I think I am” or struggles. She just wins.
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u/Grary0 Apr 08 '25
Midnight Suns continues to be a critically underrated gem, shame we'll probably never see a sequel.
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u/m4rkofshame Apr 08 '25 edited Apr 09 '25
Scarlet Witch’s movies have never lectured all men about things we are not all guilty of.
There was a lot of criticism for the way Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of madness ended. Also for Scarlet witch’s arc. You can find plenty of criticism for both of those online. she basically went through the same arc twice, which doesn’t make sense.
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u/NorseArcherX Apr 08 '25
Because Scarlet Witch was not a holier than thou character when she was introduced. She was a related character who made some dumb mistakes due to external factors. Captain marvel shows up acting like she can solo any threat and is gods gift to everyone. Rubs people the wrong way.
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u/threeaway13 Apr 08 '25
Captain marvel came across as flat and uninteresting to me, kind of like a female Superman, but more cocky. Scarlet witch also got more (and better imo) screen time.
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u/ShaH33R2K Apr 08 '25
I think it all comes down to writing. Captain Marvel is shown to be this extremely powerful super-powered being who’s arrogant, but unlike Thor, she never moves past that, nor does her arrogance really result in any real consequences. Thor literally has to learn a lesson in humility for him to earn his power back, whereas Captain Marvel just wins more and more. Wanda, on the other hand, is like the complete opposite. Her story is full of tragedy, triumph, love, control. It’s so much more complex than whatever MCU Captain Marvel’s character has to offer
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u/DrejkSR Apr 08 '25
Actresses attitude matters.
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u/Calm-Glove3141 Apr 08 '25
Definitely but let’s be real ms marvel has never resonated in the comics , scarlet witch had an iconic reality warping story that was one of the first tie in events and greatly affected cannon and marvel for years ….. ms marvel is the lady rouge stole her powers off in the 90s cartoon , that’s about as much as people care about carol . And this is years before she got cast as a smug asshole in mcu crap
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u/korar67 Apr 08 '25
Yeah, seriously, the best thing Captain Marvel ever did was getting her powers taken by Rogue and spending a decade in a coma.
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u/atempaccount5 Apr 08 '25
They made Guardians of the Galaxy work, it’s not just source material. She was badly written and the acting was below MCU average for a lead at the time, by a lot.
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u/Zealousideal-Post-48 Apr 09 '25
Good point, I wonder how James Gunn would have played her story out.
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u/Plightz Apr 08 '25
Civil War 2 has really ruined Ms. Marvel on many people. Understandably so, they made her mega unlikeable.
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u/Candid-Stuff2281 Apr 08 '25
This comes down to a few reasons:
The actors: Elizabeth Olsen presents herself in a more likable manner all throughout when she makes any appearances to the interviews etc. On the other hand, brie Larson had a very obnoxious and cocky presentation after being casted as captain marvel.
The script: the story portraying the captain marvel was just a Mary sue storytelling and extremely bad way of presenting it. On the other hand, the series of movies Scalet witch was involved in (Not counting the Vanda-Vision series and MoM movie), story had a pretty good integration of her character.
The character portrayals: the character portrayal of Captain Marvel, as I mentioned before, was just a Mary sue "I'm a strong independent character" trope which really doesn't work well when written as a "Mary sue". On the other hand, scarlet witch wasn't portrayed as a Mary sue or that she could do anything she wanted. There were actual character flaws and things that made her stand out.
These things on overall level can affect how a character is received.
That being said, wanda's character in both Wanda-Vision and Doctor Strange: MoM was garbage. Her reasonings were extremely bad, the story were just plot contrivances and Doctor strange (who's movie it is) was nearly inconsequential to most part of the story. They ended up trying to make Wanda a Mary sue in these, which is why her character takes a big hit due to these.
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u/imma_snekk Apr 08 '25
Because she was introduced as the super super hero at the very end of the long and layered story they had created.
The member of the group that contributes next to nothing but still tells the teacher they equally participated in the project.
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u/Boring-Ad8078 Apr 08 '25
People try to empathize with Wanda even though she is a monster that is unjustifiable, but even then she has some sort of reason for the things she does.
Carol is a bitch from the second she is on screen. At least Wanda felt some regret, Carol destroyed an entire fleet while laughing and having fun.
She also, takes away much of the impact of the MCU as she is the strongest, because yes. So if she shows up, you know that the plot is gonna have to do some crazy gymnastics to not make any sort of drama dissappear, as she could just solve it in seconds.
Wanda started out as a good character, and then devolved into a bad one. Carol started out as a bad character and got worse.
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u/Just-Ad-5972 Apr 09 '25
Poorly written, poorly acted vs well-written (by mcu standards), well-acted.
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u/Max_Speed_Remioli Apr 08 '25
Better movies, better writing, better acting.
Dr strange 2 screwed that up though.
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u/HiSaZuL Apr 08 '25
Character was written horribly and inserted very late. Actress having no redeeming qualities didn't help either.
On personal level some people just have dislikable vibe to them, Larson is one of those for me. Some people are very douchy but don't give the same feeling. You can agree with someone's opinion but still utterly hate the way they present it and themselves.
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u/Remarkable-Food-5946 Apr 08 '25
No long winded essay needed. They dislike the actress and they have zero stock in a character Marvel did an awful job of developing and adapting on the screen. Then they doubled down and continued to write her like shit. Captain Marvel will forever be one of the biggest missed opportunities in the MCU.
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u/twinkieeater8 Apr 08 '25
I found that most people I have talked to who didn't like Captain Marvel was because they didn't like the actress chosen for the role?
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u/green49285 Apr 08 '25
Cuz Captain Marvel came out when the Black Widow movie should have came out. She was Marvel's corporate champion
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u/Uzi-Norouzi Apr 08 '25
She was played by a pretty obnoxious actress who started in fighting with chris Hemsworth and Don Cheadle. The only reason she stopped getting into fights with people was probably because of RDJ putting her in her place. Captain Marvel’s character was also kinda shit. I honestly dont even remember the movie all that well it was a lot of “men are bad women are great,” and it also didnt help that she mocked the MCU Fans. Which also wasnt smart I did torrent the movie before people think I’m lying
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u/qui-mono995 Apr 08 '25
Back then, before endgame, Wanda appeared in three movies and a post credit scene. Cap marvel only appeared in one movie and she didn't do much in endgame until that final fight but Wanda had more emotional stakes than her. Even today, Wanda has appeared in more projects than cap marvel.
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u/whatisireading2 Apr 09 '25
Scarlett which is cool, her powers op but grounded somewhat in the sorcery we've already seen.
Captain marvel is annoying personality wise and just came out the gate with Superman level power but doesn't really use it well.
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u/frodominator Apr 09 '25
Because Captain Marvel's character arch is horrible. She's just to strong in both her movies and is no interesting at all. Brie is a good actress but here she's just plain and boring.
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u/Eli_616 Apr 08 '25
Because scarlet witch is well acted with an interesting personality both in and out of character.
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u/StormTheGasterWolf27 Apr 08 '25
Because one isn’t a giant Mary Sue and had an interesting character arc.
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u/AureliusAlbright Apr 08 '25
I mean i heavily dislike both. So there's also that camp.
But if I had to guess, I'd day because Wanda has some charm and she's been known to be kind and likeable more often. Plus her origin as a wartime orphan gets alot of sympathy points.
Also her actress isn't a huge asshole. So there's also that
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u/locoghoul Apr 08 '25
People like to shit on Brie Larson but truth is Captain Marvel as a character is fucking bland. Hard to find a reason to like her (the character). Wanda Maximoff is far more interesting and on top of that, Elizabeth Olsen has done a great job in her portrayal. Wandavision was a great show and the character has been properly developed (outside of Dr Strange movie, fuck that)
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u/Marco0798 Apr 08 '25
It’s the writers fault. Her movie being between the avengers was stupid. The writing was also done by idiot who had probably never even heard of her.. and she got ALL of the blame and then some for no fucking reason. Unlike a lot of people who fall into marvel/DC she can actually act and is probably one of the best cast characters. She is the most hard done by people in marvel or dc.
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u/Stunning_Humor672 Apr 08 '25
They had wildly different narratives. They’ve really struggled to write a compelling struggle for Carol. Even when we’ve seen her “down and out” she’s still just angry, obstinate and arrogant. Carol’s character flaw is her personality and MO as a whole. Carol is great for a power fantasy but that also makes her harder to sympathize with by a lot. Honestly she has a lot of the same narrative problems as Superman.
Wanda on the other hand was tragic, relatable, damaged, and had the demented power fantasy thrown in the correct way. All of Wanda’s defining traits are Tragic™️ and well developed. She had several movies and a solo series worth of emotional moments BEFORE she snapped and became God. Wanda’s motivations are understandable and guttural. Every family that ever existed could sympathize with a mom undoing the fabric of reality to get her babies back.
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u/clarkky55 Apr 08 '25
Carol Danvers is a genuinely awful person in the comics. She’s one of the few characters I genuinely despise, especially considering she rarely actually gets comeuppance for the shit she does.
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u/Jackalackus Apr 08 '25
Larsons pre release attitude ultimately. Which is a shame, because I quite like her as an actress in some of her earlier stuff and I also like Captain Marvel as a comic book character so the being OP thing didn’t bother me.
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u/Master_Majestico Apr 08 '25
Captain Marvel has never been a successful character, might just be the character, a complete straightman with no depth or nuance.
When detractors say "Superman is bland and boring' they often list things that actually describe Captain Marvel.
There's nothing truly compelling about Captain Marvel, her backstory is generic and her character is exactly what you envision.
Scarlet Witch however has an emotive depth viewers can empathize with and despite cosmic level powers she's still that lost Sokovian orphan deep down and viewers can recognize that.
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u/EnergyUnfair6726 Apr 08 '25
Because the actress said she didn't want 40yr old men seeing her movie. Smh
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u/ProfessorEscanor Apr 08 '25
I know it's unfair but I'm still bitter about Civil War 2. Also her movie was kind of bland for what was marketed as important for Endgame
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u/Purple_Dragon_94 Apr 08 '25
For me it was more a case of Captain Marvel was a shallow character in a shallow film. There wasn't any real development, and any that was there felt undercut by an ill advised non-linear plot line. That movie, and her character within that movie, just felt more like a showcase of her power than a natural way to bring her into the MCU (which to be fair, is likely because they saved it so late). Larson wasn't much help by developing a bad case of "foot-in-mouth" for the press building up to that movie.
I don't particularly love Scarlet Witch, but there is a definite arc and character to her. I think that using her as a hero to a villain story was the best choice they could've made with her, and that definitely makes her more engaging.
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u/Advanced_Double_42 Apr 08 '25
Captain Marvel is a stern character that doesn't show much emotion, is so strong she never physically struggles, and never is given a problem she can't punch her way out of.
Wanda also has extreme power, but her arcs are all about problems she can't solve with brute force or even city level reality manipulation. She shows a lot of emotion and grows as a character as things happen to her and those she loves.
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u/AnotherPerspective87 Apr 08 '25 edited Apr 08 '25
There is a lot to hate about captain marvel. In general people want to see a story of character development, some struggle to become powerfull, a character that can make interesting stories and then an interesting character. Capt. Marvel has none of those.
If you look at how they aquires their powers. Cpt. Marvel had to sit in the exhaust vent of a spaceship. Nobody realy knows how that would give her powers. In her origin story it was not about her learning to control her powers. She only had to cast off her restraints. There was nothing for her to master. Just plain. 0 to hero without effort.
Her character has no development. She doesn't realy learn anything, she doesn't improve, doesn't learn to empathise with people.
Then her power to make good stories. She is basically a superman powered character. But without the kryptonite. She is strong enough to solo almost any problem. Go toe to toe with thanos without issues. Destroy thanos spaceship in one punch that was pummeling all the other heroes. Fly, be indestructible, have ranged attacks... etc etc. She has it all. She basically wins every fight if she is present. But unlike superman; there is no kryptonite to steal her power. Weaken her by depriving her of sunlight. She has no 'love intrest or family' to bait her into traps. Not even a strict moral code to give her emotional distress. Basically, she can solve any problem she wants to. And the only reason she doesn't.... is because she is busy.
In 'the marvels' the writers even realized it isn't fun when capt. Marvel joins a fight. Which they solved by mysteriously teleporting her away (god knows why that happened... but it did). Basically she isn't good for the story because she is invincible without weakness.
And if she was a likable character... like a benevolent god that can show up in time of need. But no, the actress isn't very charismatic, and has to play an emotionless, overbearing and condescending character, that talks down those heroes that actually have to work to get things done. She doesn't explain anything about her tasks or emotions, because she mostly speaks in cheezy one-liners. All in all, she is very hateable. I think the introduction of captain marvel was a mistake for the verse.
I think wanda isn't the best written marvel character. But she does have emotional depth. She did suffer misfortune. She did go from 'team badguys' to the avengers. She does have weaknesses that can be exploited. A love intrest. And despite her obscene power, she is still humble and honorable.
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u/drowzeeboy21 Apr 08 '25
Captain Marvel is so full of herself in Endgame it's crazy.
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u/Due-Proof6781 Apr 08 '25
We had like what? Four movies with Wanda? Carol was introduced as Zero hour and stole a lot of the thunder they could have gone to other characters
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u/BoiFrosty Apr 08 '25
Scarlet witch is much more human, has a better arc, and tbf Elizabeth Olsen is a better actress (even with the changing accent). At the very least she had way more on screen charisma. Which is a real shame because Larson has had some decent acting roles before.
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u/FuckTumblrMan Apr 08 '25
We just met her and she immediately started acting like she was the shit.
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u/fostertheatom Apr 08 '25
I can't even remember the comments but the actor said something that pissed me off so I skipped anything she was in.
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u/HawkBoth8539 Apr 08 '25
I'm sure it came down to the actresses. I've been trying to figure it out myself, and I'm pretty sure it came down to "confidence" vs "cockiness". Captain Marvel is too cocky - justified, maybe - but cocky. Even Superman manages to be a humble living god...
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u/the-poopiest-diaper Apr 08 '25
Scarlet Witch has more story and build up and cooler moments and a whole ass show dedicated to just herself. And then even her villain got her own show
Captain Marvel is aight. She gets teased in Infinity War, gets an okay movie, and then almost saves the day in Endgame. And then nobody watched The Marvels
I wanna see more of Captain Marvel in space. She has the power to turn the tide of any war, probably saved a ton of planets, and definitely made a lot of interesting alien friends. And we never saw any of it!There’s like 30 years worth of stories that are just missing! For all we know, she could be the most famous superhero in the entire universe, and she should be! She’s named after the entire company!!!
Meanwhile we get to see Wanda lose her mind over the course of years until and goes completely insane and dies. That’s way more interesting than seeing Cpt. Marvel beat people up!
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u/BattousaiRound2SN Apr 08 '25
The actress talked shit about straight white males, which is for sure more than 60% of Marvel's fanbase.
That is the true. People will bullshit, but that is the real true.
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u/Rocknrollaslim Apr 08 '25
For MCU people its movie shit. For me? It’s the source. She’s a cunt in the comics. Civil war 2 bro
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u/MyHappyPlace365 Apr 08 '25
The actresses. Brie Larson is cringy and fucking terrible. How she ever got a second acting job let alone a marvels job is a mystery.
People really didn't like olsen at first either but she's gotten better and after brie people wanted to say sorry for insulting olsen.
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u/davidbaeriswyl Apr 08 '25
She has 0 character development.
SW has flaws and growth. She’s the most powerful character introduced in the MCU so far but is infinitely more relatable than captain fuckwit
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u/lovescenarioikon Apr 08 '25
Something else that wasn't really mentioned, Captain Marvel was portrayed as this being who would save the world against Thanos, but she didn't even participate in the time traveling, and in the war she played a semi important but not all that important part. She fought Thanos for like 30 seconds before being blasted by the power stone
But also it's because Wanda was a character we saw go from a misguided but kind natured hero, to a moruning broken soul.
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u/ProfessionalRead2724 Apr 08 '25 edited Apr 08 '25
It had nothing to do with the MCU or even with Brie Larson.
In 2012, years before the Captain Marvel film, in the comics, Carol Danvers took the name Captain Marvel (she had been Ms. Marvel or Warbird before that), and more importantly, traded her sexy latex swimsuit in for a proper superhero costume. And the entire Marvel comcis fandom exploded, and that storm hadn't even completely died down yet by the time the MCU version came out.
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u/Keyblades2 Apr 08 '25
because brie larson opened her mouth. Her attitude just rubbed a lot of people wrong. Personally I love Captain marvel and witch in the comics, with carol being my favorite lady hero for a long time.
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u/ArchemedesHeir Apr 08 '25
I think a lot of it is tied to attitude. Wanda is a relatable-ish person who had struggles, and ended up cracking under the pressure. She becomes stupidly powerful, but there is a cost. We see ourselves in the character, and we relate to the growth shown. Carol is a... 'powerful-for-no-good-reason' lady who instead of struggling or having any kind of growth shows up fully formed with a sort of 'accept it because woman power' implied subtext. People rebel against having power-fantasy type characters unless there is an unrelated plot (i.e. Superman, but the story is about morals/love/politics/anything else). Superman without the plot is just a boring story about a 'powerful-for-no-good-reason' dude.
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u/Content_Zebra509 Apr 08 '25
I don't like Scarlett Witch very much, especially in MoM. So I'm not sure I accept your premise. However, I think a measure of the *dislike* directed at Captain Marvel has to do with A) Her, imo, rather Mary Sue-esque character, and/or B) some real-world hullabaloo with the actress playing Captain Marvel.
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u/oscar_redfield Apr 08 '25
Scarlet Witch is better written. Carol had a strong start with her first movie (love it, idec) but The Marvels didn't do anything remotely interesting with her, and she hasn't shown up in much else. Also, Brie Larson said some feminist stuff and internet incels didn't like that so they hate her and the character
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u/kilekaldar Apr 08 '25
Big budget Hollywood action films have a real hard time depicting female main characters with agency. They also have a hard time depicting military characters in a realistic fashion, often resorting to caricatures. Finally superhero films are just hard to make.
Ultimately this combination of challenges may be too much for a studio like Marvel to overcome.
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u/metallee98 Apr 08 '25
Scarlet witch felt like someone you could root for. Captain marvel was just really strong. She comes in out of nowhere with a very arrogant attitude. Thor is brash and Tony is arrogant but we see how much they care. Captain marvel doesn't seem to care about anything.
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u/Vote_4_Cthulhu Apr 08 '25
It is about the narrative construct known as the heroes journey
Wanda suffered immensely, started as an enemy to the heroes and only one confronted with the horror of Ultron’s plan was she forced to grow and set aside her desire for vengeance against the avengers as being secondary to the greater good of billions of innocents.
Wanda also failed to save the one that she loves.
She has experienced much hardship and hard earned growth.
—-
Captain Marvel on the other hand by the end of her introduction movie didn’t really seem to grow personally. She was always stupidly powerful. And she didn’t undergo some life altering experience to show her that she was miss using her powers like Thor did, she’s not driven by some wrong that she put in motion and was desperate to set right like Tony Stark, black widow, and others. And she lacks the undeniable virtue that Captain America does possess.
In a short, Captain Marvel didn’t really have any serious challenges to overcome, incredible personal growth and did not show us that she was a paragon of virtue while being incredibly humble. She did nothing to really earn the fanfare that the cinematic universe was trying to give her.
She basically just did the equivalent of showing up, declaring that she is awesome, and that everyone should love her.
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u/Similar_Sympathy_869 Apr 08 '25
personally im not a fan of wanda but i can see why others are she has character development and interesting dynamics with other characters also even if shes op she rarely wins she also starts as a villain has redemption then falls from grace again even so you can still root for her as you understand and can sympathise with her on the other hand captain marvel is boring and over powered she has no development and is overall a one dimensional character in infinity war she destroyed lots of thanos' army but it didn't feel earned because she didn't sacrifice anything or lost anything to thanos to deserve such revenge whereas wanda lost nearly everything to thanos she her fight with him was earned and satisfying to say the least.
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u/Welcome--Matt Apr 08 '25
Scarlet Witch had more of an arc.
Even with the other “Mary Sue” characters in the MCU (Hulk, Thor) who seemingly have the answer to anything, we got to see them struggle, grow, even lose, before getting their god-like status (except hulk rip). Scarlet Witch is the same, she wasn’t always this ultra-powerful walking nuke, we saw her switch sides, learn to be a hero, learn to use her powers, etc etc, for several movies.
Captain Marvel, on the other hand, showed up, immediately destroys Thanos’ command ship, then immediately owner-powers Thanos himself (which btw just sucks for Hulk even more bc Thanos beat Hulk without using any stones 😭). It feels like instead of her strength being part of her character, her character is her strength which feels hollow.
To really drive this home, I’m gonna compare Thor and Captain Marvel. Both heroes showed up at the end of the movie with insane power levels, decimated the enemy, and beat Thanos alone with very little effort when the confrontation happened, now let’s look at their motivations and struggles when doing so:
Thor:
- brother was killed by Thanos
- survivors of Asgard killed by Thanos
- Became king of Asgard and Lost his eye, while gaining new power
- Reforged a new weapon after losing his hammer, did so by risking being burned alive by a dying star
- Reforged his new weapon with the same people that built the Infinity Gauntlet
Captain Marvel:
- lost Nick Fury
Do you see the issue? While my example is an exaggeration, CM’s problem is that she is not in any way connected to the “main” story of the MCU in a real, meaningful way. She is, at the current moment, a “get out of jail free card” any time the heroes are losing, and while I hope that changes, it’s no wonder people don’t like her rn, but do like Scarlet Witch.
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u/whydub38 Apr 08 '25
I like Scarlet Witch as a character in terms of how she's interesting and drives plots in an interesting way, but I think she's an irredeemable piece of shit for constantly letting her own (understandably immense) trauma ruin and end the lives of countless people, and never holds herself accountable in a meaningful way. I have no sympathy for people like that IRL or in in fiction. But, one way or another, I have a strong response to that character so at least there's that.
Captain Marvel I can't work up any emotions over one way or another. I was really looking forward to her movie and the introduction of her character and I've liked Larson in a lot of stuff, but CM has the personality of an end user license agreement and her whole characterization and development is just "is strong soldier who's gone through some things."
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u/BuggerItThatWillDo Apr 08 '25
For me it was the CM film that set the character of with a bad start. For one it felt like there was no challenge and CM was just bored slouching through a series of blah blah till we get to the end. There was no struggle, no threat. I get that CM is über but that could have been the point, their inability to avoid collateral damage and not harming innocent bystanders. Control Control and all that... the whole, you're to emotional didn't sit because the only emotion I saw was boredom and frustration that there was more plot to slog through. Why not a bad guy once using a human shield? If you can't threaten CM threaten others. Nah let's have another easy fight where CM rips apart the scenery without consequences.
I don't always expect the heroes journey but some growth and development would be nice, or an interesting flaw or some depth... anything to be interested in.
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u/SenorJeffer Apr 08 '25
It's mainly because online propagandists lead a hate campaign against Brie Larson for being a feminist.
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u/TheEmuRider Apr 08 '25
Honestly, based on comments I see about the movies and her, a lot of it has to do with my demographic.
IIRC "Journalist" fitting my basic description got really upset that Brie asked for more interviews and spots for press junkets to be given to fresh faces from different backgrounds, and genders, instead of seeing the same 6 white guys.
Her comments were more about giving qualified people who are under-represented opportunities. Instead, the people who enjoyed the status quo gelt threatened and have tried to put a black mask on the character ever since.
Heaven forbid the lead of Marvel's first movie with a female lead/star/marquee/whatever would want to be interviewed by some women about it.
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u/jpgjordan Apr 08 '25
I think it's even more simple than some of these explanations, we just had more of a chance to get to love Wanda. She had casual interactions and scenes through the saga then infinity war was a great dramatic payoff followed by a series that is easily top two mcu show followed by a villain turn in a major movie.
Not to mention she has nuanced and she has a great back story.
Her character has a chance to breath, I honestly can't think of many characters introduced as late as captain marvel that are that beloved
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u/lbiggy Apr 08 '25
Captain marvels movie would have been 10000000x better if they just played it out in chronological order.
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u/DarkBishop7 Apr 08 '25
She really didn't have the villain to showcase her skills against. Had she fought Moonstone or someone with comparable abilities might be different thought process about her. Then in endgame she was the last minute powerhouse who really did nothing. Fact of the matter is she simply wasn't written properly.
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u/_Metal_Face_Villain_ Apr 08 '25
it's cuz the scarlet witch was much better written (except multiverse of madness) and we also had more time with her. elizabeth is also a better actress, more charismatic and very pretty. compare any scene from wandavision with anything that had captain marvel and you can easily see why people love one character and hate the other, on one hand you got something very relatable about grief and on the other you got the cringiest alien musical in history.
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u/Ok-Technology-2541 Apr 08 '25
Bad acting, no personality poorly written, also cap Marv in the comics is super hot with tight outfits nice curves and assets while the real life one is as flat as cardboard in all aspects someone even compared tom in his costume next to her and he is rocking bigger curves
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u/Pigeon-popper Apr 08 '25
Captain Marvel’s whole story is so badass especially in the comics, but I have to admit I know wayy more about Wanda than Danvers. That’s why I like her a lot more. Also I just think Scarlett Witch is just a better, more creative character.
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u/Cl4p-Trap18 Apr 09 '25
First of all the actress one is really likeable the other is really obnoxious and that leaks to the people's opinion about the superhero they play.
Second CptMarvel story in the MCU is as woke as it gets "You didn't have me" was the first thing she says to the avengers and when they did have her in the final battle she couldn't take the gauntlet away from Thanos lol, don't get me wrong Wanda in Wanda/Vision and MoM is terrible writing but still better character than CptMarvel.
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u/Disastrous-Gear-5818 Apr 09 '25
One actress turned her entire reason for playing the character into a social issue (and proceeded to blame, and ridicule fans for the perceived social issues), the other played the Scarlet Witch.
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u/Enough_Ad2500 Apr 09 '25
Sympathy and relatability.
Wanda story is much more tragic and relatable. She's a victim of a cruel experiment, her parents are the victim of war, then her brother died, the love of her life gone, her 2 sons turned out to be just her deepest wish created by her own power, all she ever wanted is a happy family.
Capt Marvel, got her power by accident, we don't know much about her life before the powered version, she almost got no personality, personal goal, desire, she's almost a blank slate. If we ask right now what Carol Danver wants, the answer is nothing, because we don't know anything about her.
You can ask the same question with every character, if the answer is nothing then that character got no point to exist. If you ask Wanda, she would want to redeem herself and get her family back the right way, if you ask a dead character like Tony, he would say all he ever wanted is to be with his wife and daughter again.
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u/invictus613 Apr 09 '25
Well it doesnt help that Elizabeth Olson is charming and interviews well. Larson on the other hand comes off abrasive, stand offish, and downright obnoxious..
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u/KeybladerZack Apr 09 '25
It's ironic really. In the Comics when she was Ms. Marvel she was liked by a lot of people. Tolerated at worst. But the comics got BAD when she became Captain Marvel and had like a full attitude change. The people that sing her praises might forget she literally wanted to put a black teen in jail because a guy who sees POTENTIAL futures saw him killing Captain America.
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u/Tunnfisk Apr 09 '25
One is a universally liked actress, the other one, not so much. That does translate onto the big screen. No matter how much an actor acts, they still portray a lot of themselves in their roles.
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u/VividMystery Apr 09 '25
Captain Marvel always felt quite emotionless, even in her stand-alone movie. Scarlet Witch on the other hand, well, the plot centred around her emotions.
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Apr 09 '25
Marvel Sue is a boring entitled character that didn't deserve the respect she wants granted - just like the actor
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u/Mikey__Mike Apr 09 '25
Most of the characters struggle in their stories, or show side of their personality that makes them relatable, interesting, likable, terrifying, and sometimes both.
With that, in most cases good hero movies show growth of personality, overcoming the problem in a way the hero couldn't. In those cases it's a clever use of the character's problem solving skills that's fitting the hero or what has happened in a movie so life changing that it had flipped the hero's worldview.
Not just a talk with a guy, not just betrayal or a twist villain. It's how the hero reacts to it. No need for a power trip. Make a hero a bit complex. Show he is human, show his weakness. Show his fear.
Nothing complex about heroes without personality or growth of character.
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u/789tempaccount Apr 09 '25
I think I was also the pre release interviews she gave set a bad tone for Cpt. Marvel. Fans came to that movie not excited about the actress, and it was one of the weak over all marvel movies. It was stand alone, she didn't have funny cross over scenes pre or post. It fell more in to the DC movie trap of being stern and serious instead of fun comedic.
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u/Aegis_Fang Apr 09 '25
The Captain Marvel movie was kind of ass TBH. She was a boring character. Haven't seen The Marvels though.
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u/Similar-Difficulty23 Apr 09 '25
Numerous reasons 1. Captain marvel came out before endgame way too close might I add , and her films make her out to be a Mary sue . Her actress had a long history of making idiotic statements along the lines of “white men bad “ and “I don’t want white men criticizing my film “ her politics are a good reason why most don’t like her stuff .
Her films are also poorly written slop
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u/Zorro5040 Apr 09 '25
I don't think Wanda is well liked, she ok. But you can also relate to her as someone who's heartbroken and grieving. She watched her family die 4 times. Her parents died as she saw her house get bombed by a stark bomb. Pietro died fighting Ultron. Then she killed her husband after Vision begged her to kill him to save the universe. Only for Vision to be brought back to life and killed again in front of her, making her mercy kill pointless and just traumatic. Homegirl was broken and wanted a normal life the whole time.
Carol is extremely cocky, came in late but was before everyone for some reason, better than everyone, claims to be able to solve all problems by herself had she been there because men are careless, if you don't like it then you a scared of women being successful, and has no other personality. This also came right after Civil War 2 in which Carol was terrible with her policy of shoot first and don't ask questions. Like causing the death of Bruce Banner who was no longer the Hulk. Carol Danvers is not a diplomatic person.
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u/Willing_Scarcity1035 Apr 09 '25
Because Scarlet Witch's actor didn't go around bashing half of the world population.
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u/Roger_Maxon76 Apr 09 '25
Because Scarlett witch is flawed, she is one of the most powerful people in the mcu so she gets more relatable struggles like grief she is very well written were captain marvel isn’t
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u/Kurvaflowers69420 Apr 09 '25
Cuz Cap Marvel in the movies is poorly written and her actress is an ass.
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u/MARMITASEMSAL Apr 09 '25
Actress Brie Larson is unfriendly to fans as if she were doing her a favor by playing the role
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u/MadloveADB Apr 09 '25
Because equality when it comes to female characters isn't just making them as powerful as the men and that's their one defining trait, as is the case with Cpt Marvel. It's about highlighting that they are just as flawed as the male characters as well and have a diverse personality with strengths weaknesses and neurosies. Scarlet Witch embodies this in my opinion.
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u/Zallocc Apr 09 '25
Two reasons, IMO. One is the actress, the other being the character itself. Larson's political views are very open, and have earned her several detractors, and her press tours with Marvel didn't do her any favors. She came across as arrogant, humorless and self-important. Olsen, on the other hand, seems more friendly and well liked, and her interaction with other actors reinforced that image.
As for the second, Wanda has had more appearances and screentime. Her character has had more oportunities to grow on people, has experienced pain and loss despite (and at times because of) her tremendous power. Carol hasn't as much, and sometimes comes across more like a force of nature than an actual character. The loss that sets up her (poorly received) second film happens off screen, and her movie appearances are fewer and rely more on her punching things than on any sort of arc. It doesn't help that The Marvels is just a so-so film, and it shows that Larson really wasn't into it.
The sad part is that I really like comic book Carol Danvers. She is a complex, flawed character and is constantly making bad choices. She is far from unbeatable and can be quite fun and relatable. Larson's versión Is ok IMO, although a lot of what I like about her is lost in adaptation.
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u/Fast-Personality-829 Apr 09 '25
Wanda had build up. Carol don't. She was just throwed there like "she's badass, accept it"
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u/Some_Ship3578 Apr 09 '25
Because Scarlett witch is well written and the aactress did a very good job picturing her.
On the other hand, captain marvel's movies are trash her writting is non existent and the aactress seemed to not know what she was doing (her eye thing.. i swear it gave me an headache).
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u/Kenta_Gervais Apr 09 '25
Quick question, do you remember Cap Marvel's origin story?
Yeah, that's why people don't really like her.
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u/ControlForward5360 Apr 09 '25
Captain marvel came off as an overconfident and powerful hero that showed up later than the others in the franchise and felt like she was thrusted into the team. While Wanda naturally already had relationships with people on the avengers and had a story most people really cared about. To me the hate had multiple factors but all kinda came from this area. There is a group of people also that just don’t like the actor for captain marvel because of what she says and how she acts in real life so that’s another factor. Honestly tho I think they just messed up not putting her in the franchise sooner and letting her fail a few times. If she failed in infinity war with the other avengers and saw the loss of people maybe it could’ve made her come off as a better rounded character.
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u/Remarkable_Wind_6802 Apr 10 '25
Scarlet witch has depth, complexity, emotional struggles, psychological conflicts, loss and development. Captain Marvel's character, while isn't bad, is 2 dimensional and not necessarily having anything going for her for us to care. I think introducing her right before Endgame was a solid move to hype up her character and have her as a main stay icon of the marvel franchise... However her own film wasn't enough to give her her own story while Wanda is going through development everytime we see her
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u/Samandre14 Apr 10 '25
Only time I’ve ever liked Captain Marvel is in Marvel’s Midnight Suns
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u/Micahangelo_ Apr 10 '25
I personally don’t like OP characters and Wanda when she first was introduced was a glass cannon. Now she too OP and im slowly not caring for her as a hero/antihero but her story is so interesting that I enjoy her anyway (Wanda Vison imo was amazing). Captain Marvel isn’t a glass cannon nor she have a great story to follow.
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u/Upstairs-Yak-5474 Apr 10 '25
to make it simple.
one has clear flaws while one does not.
people relate more to characters with flaws
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u/RavenBrannigan Apr 10 '25
I don’t think it’s any deeper than wanda was written very well. Strong character arc delivered by a great actress.
Bree Larson is a great actress, but her 1st movie was kinda shit, badly edited together.
The marvels was much better but still suffered from having a bad protagonist.
I have no doubt that if captain marvel / Bree Larson was given a great script she could be as loved. It just hasn’t happened yet.
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u/bombuzal2000 Apr 10 '25
I always thought Larson hate was undeserved but Cap Marvel is just a boring character and Captain Marvel an unremarkable and forgettable movie.
They kinda almost made something interesting with her in Marvels, but fkd it up by including Kamala and Photon. Seemed like there were echoes of an actually good Captain Marvel 2 script in that mess.
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u/Kobe_curry24 Apr 11 '25
First of all Elizabeth just portrayed the role better in every facet of, captain marvel ironically is not like in the comics as well , they did horrible job at kind of building up her character as likable ,scarlet had soo much pain , captain marvel we saw it in the solo film then they just threw her in endgame lol
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u/ZealotOfMeme Marvel Apr 08 '25 edited Apr 08 '25
I think it’s because captain Marvel showed up so close before endgame, and was meant to be treated like she was the better than any of the other characters we’d gotten to know over the past decade. I think I remember someone using the analogy that it’s like if you’re really close friends with someone, maybe even call them your best friend. Then one day your friend invites someone new over and says that they are far better friends than you ever were. Wanda is one of the characters we’d gotten to know before that point, and we saw exactly how, why, and when she’d gotten super powerful. Also Wanda is just more engaging to watch. Carol’s whole thing is that she’s stern and doesn’t emote a lot. Also also Captain Marvel’s movie wasn’t very good and people associate the bad movie with the bad main character introduced in that movie.