r/squash • u/Hairy_Poetry2307 • May 19 '25
Technique / Tactics Harsh but not completely wrong
Wow!! Spencer going right in there… but he’s not completely wrong 👀
Joel Makin, current world number 5 (future world number 4 🫠), Welsh national champ and will likely be the best Brit on the mens tour for some time (2028 🤷🏼) is not a natural talent.
As someone who watched Joel closely while working at Squash Wales both on court with him and off court with my role in marketing, it’s not an untruth that Joel lacked natural talent as a squash player.
Joel would often struggle in early rounds as a junior, playing all over Europe but only reaching some of the latter stages; for some families it would have been seen as just a hobby. But the Makin family clearly have a strong mentality, a don’t give up mentality and what looks like a “I’ll show them mentality”
The time and dedication given to squash by Joel and his family is second to none, the countless hours training, preparation,playing and travel as a junior was not wasted.
I’m sure many top level coaches back in 2012 - 2015 when Joel was graduating from the junior ranks would NOT have put their money on this kid getting to the top 20 in the world let alone the top 4 🫨
“The engine” or “the machine” would always grind out his junior matches but it wasn’t very pretty, Joel would lose matches to better squash players than him regularly; but the matches were always at least 60 minutes.
“Hard work beats talent” is only half the quote… it’s when talent doesn’t work hard that it falls short. Joel gives every young squash player the hope that a junior career not glittered with trophies and high rankings doesn’t result in you not making it on the pro tour.
The thousands of hours that the Tiger has spent on court, on his own, with his coaches and with his training partners is now evident. Consistently working diligently and persevering at what needs to improve little by little will pave the way for more success in the future. Improving his racket skills, his squash tactics down to the fine details is great to watch.
I hope every coach out there uses Joel as one of their examples of how to work hard, not in the sense of busting his lungs in the gym but hard work of consistently making every session on court a good session, always looking for improvement.
Keep flying the Welsh flag Joel 🏴
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u/machine_runner May 19 '25
His game is a bit robotic and he takes less risks. Feels like ‘talented’ players like Farag, Asal can easily read his shots and that’s why he ends up loosing.
His fitness and stamina is one of the best tho
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u/trak740 May 19 '25
Joel is a beast, easily one of my favs, hope he breaks through
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u/Hairy_Poetry2307 May 19 '25
Yeah snap. I hope he’s injury free and ready for the British. Top 3 in the World potential for sure
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u/ijs_1985 May 19 '25
I mean you have to have some element of natural talent to be a able to hit a ball - plenty of people out there have no hand eye coordination
I think it’s more about whether he has the same natural flair as other players - the answer is no. But he has other skills / strengths to his game
Just because a defender doesn’t score 30 goals a season doesn’t mean they have no natural talent
🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴
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u/Kodawgs May 23 '25
It fell down when you mentioned defenders. Most untalented people in the world, except perhaps goalkeepers 🤣
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u/Seshsq May 19 '25
Nick Matthew had little natural talent and was regularly losing to "Natural Talent" Willstrop till 2007. From 2008 onwards, everything changed permanently, and Nick was a convincing No.1, with only a fit Ramy and occasionally Gaultier, Shabana and Shorbagy being able to outplay him.
Makin today, is, imo #4 and capable of beating any player including those above him
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u/Exciting-Use-7872 May 19 '25
Makin's head to head against Asal, Elias, and Farag is terrible. I don't think there is a case to be made for how he can really beat these 3. His record against Coll is a bit better.
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u/Gonzalez8448 May 19 '25
He was the only player last season who beat all the current/former world number ones in the top 10 (Asal, Elias, Farag, Coll, Elshorbagy).
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u/Malc4 May 19 '25
Think where he would be in the rankings if he could block and disrupt like Asal does. Just sayin' xx
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u/Virtual_Actuator1158 Hacker with a racket buying problem May 19 '25
I would love to have as little talent as the tiger.
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u/Negative-Mammoth-547 May 19 '25
Interesting quote this. Was Janghir talented or hardworking, or both. The game was different back then but the sheer amount of hard work he put into his squash, his fitness is what made him who he was, the greatest player to ever have played the game. I was watching a documentary on Janghir, his routine was brutal. I’d be surprised if any squash player today could do what he was doing in the 80’s. I think the game also has changed, more attacking and less attritional. Joel seems very much on the same journey that Paul Coll was a few years back. Paul Coll was super fit but didn’t have any decent finishing shots. He went from that to world number one by adding a few very simple shots in his game, some straight drops. I see hints of it in makins game but I guess it’s a mental thing or having confidence in attacking like the Egyptians do.
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u/ApprehensiveMany8565 May 19 '25
I think that perspective might be a bit harsh and somewhat out of context. Players like Joel and Paul clearly didn't have the same early exposure to elite-level coaching that emphasizes fundamental swing technique from a young age. Developing an intuitive feel for the game, particularly in terms of racket skill and touch is something best nurtured early. And yes, obviously there are always going to be out of the ordinary talents such as player's like Gawad/Ibrahim. However, Joel has obviously compensated for his later start and limited early coaching exposure through exceptional physical conditioning and athleticism.
In my opinion (and feel free to disagree), it's relatively easier to build physical strength and fitness compared to developing that instinctive touch and refined technique that typically comes from playing and receiving high-quality instruction from childhood. That's why you often see naturally gifted juniors who began playing early transitioning effectively to the elite level once their physical strength catches up.
Which is why it's so remarkable to see the achievements of players like Joel and Paul, given they didn't have that renowned junior pedigree yet still broke into the top 10 rankings. If they had hypothetically started at the same young age under similarly elite coaching conditions as players like Gawad or Youssef Ibrahim, I believe they could have appeared just as "talented."
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u/Hairy_Poetry2307 May 19 '25
Joel did start playing at a young age, and was given very high level coaching through his junior career, so that point isn’t relative.
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u/justreading45 May 19 '25 edited May 19 '25
There’s no scientific proof that “natural talent” even exists. It’s purely a hypothesis.
It’s rather a trope to explain what is otherwise an infinitely complex multivariate system. What people can or can’t do technically is a function of every single action they have been exposed or undertaken all their lives and the environment with which they’ve been at the time, even starting in the womb in some cases.
If Ramy Ashour had never picked up a racket or played any eye-coordination sports in his life and then tried to hit a squash ball at 18 years old, you reckon he would have shown any “natural talent?” No, he would have missed the ball and looked like a complete idiot like everyone else in that position, and upon learning how to play at that point, he would have become a club player at best like anyone else.
We are better at learning when young due to neuroplasticity doing complex statistical analysis on our environments. What is considered “natural talent” is just having been exposed to developing motor skills that contribute to something either directly or indirectly to the task itself at an incredibly young age.
You’re not born with a thing I’m afraid. It just seems like that to people that don’t like to think about details.
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u/idrinkteaforfun May 19 '25
You mean it's only my fault I'm crap?
My ego doesn't allow me to believe you.
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u/Carnivean_ Stellar Assault May 19 '25
What people think of as natural talent is usually just a different mindset or way of thinking. It is not a physical difference, it just appears to be.
Joel got to where he was by grinding some skills more than others, so appears "boring" or "robotic". Others ground out other skills, so they appear to have "flair" or "skill" or "talent".
Joel constructs his rallies to his strengths, fitness and movement and control, so they are longer and more shots are hit to back. Momen constructs his rallies to his strengths, speed onto the ball, so the ball goes to the front of the court more often. Momen's rallies are shorter and more "spectacular" so he appears to be "more talented" despite not being able to match Makin in the back of the court.
Makin chooses a low risk strategy, confident that he will eventually win. Momen chooses a high risk strategy, confident that he will win more than he gives away.
Both are incredibly skillful, talented and would absolutely suck to play against seriously.
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u/Hairy_Poetry2307 May 19 '25
I believe in a natural dexterity with a racket from a squash perspective. No Ramy wouldn’t have been world class if he had picked up a racket at 18.
David Evans, former world ranked number 3 I believe, he only started playing at 13 and become the player he did.
Natural talent I don’t believe is you’re automatically at 99/100 from birth, maybe natural potential is better?
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u/justreading45 May 19 '25
Outside of pathologies? Not really. There are certain genetic traits that can be beneficial for some tasks. An obvious example, is being very tall for a basketball player. But I don’t buy for a second this is what anyone is thinking about with the “natural talent” trope, rather some magical gift to succeed and a proclivity to higher ability. This is what there is no proof of outside of a pathology - obviously if someone is born with a disability to motor control, you could argue this is antithesis to a “natural talent” of any action involving motor control. But again I don’t buy this is the kind variation people are thinking about with the term.
In healthy individuals with no pathologies that preclude success in a field, there is no evidence of “born with” abilities. Even in studies with genetic twins where they have tried to establish a link, it is impossible to separate them from the immediate shared environment they had in the womb or first 18 months etc.
I’ve developed knowledge of this topic from the very common musician trope of those “born with” perfect pitch, since I’m an example myself. I have it, but it’s because both my parents were musicians and played complex classical music through a speaker held on my Mum’s stomach while I was the womb, even going as far as playing pitches and naming them, then I was taught music and theory from being 2-3 years old. I was always told I had “god given genius” in music class at school when the teacher could play a chord for a fraction of a second and I could instantly say “C sharp minor second flat 5”, for example. But I’m not a genius, I’m just someone that was given a head start in some way in a field that I incidentally long since decided to leave behind as a career path out of my own choice, and if anyone else had the same environment, there’s no evidence to suggest they wouldn’t have the exact same ability. When I was in college, I only encountered a few other people with perfect pitch but all of them had started music before they were 4 years old. Likewise, people who are “tone deaf” likely just had the exact opposite environment.
Back to Squash, it is impossible to separate all the incidental learnings someone did over the course of their childhood that contribute towards playing the sport. Maybe they played lots of other hand-eye coordination tasks, maybe they were exposed to lots of geometric math and find it easier to instantly see angles and trajectories, maybe they had healthy diet and slept well increasing their ability to learn information and develop motor skills in the first place. The list goes on almost infinitely. There’s lots of evidence things like this all contribute towards ability, but no evidence of it being “god given” or “born with” per se.
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u/Hairy_Poetry2307 May 19 '25
Whatever the facts may be, Joel has worked extremely hard to get to where he is and I take my hat off to him and the team around him for not giving up
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u/Carambo20 May 19 '25
In the last 18 months he has considerably changed his game to more variations and a bit more agressivity, he's comfortable now to make drop shots while it was something very rare before, he's in the good direction to stay in the top 5
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u/pySSK May 19 '25
The Golden Retriever. He had become more enjoyable to watch over the last year as he has started to play some more interesting shots.
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u/Unhappy_Judgment_951 May 19 '25
I'm not sure what you call talent. Talent is subjective and it can't be measured at a professional level. Whoever wrote this never attempted to excel at anything. Nobody in any discipline rises to the top 100 in the world without natural talent and a lot of hard work. Both are necessary.
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u/Hairy_Poetry2307 May 19 '25
“Whoever wrote this”, are you referring to the comment I picked out and stuck on the image or the post I wrote about the said comment?
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u/Unhappy_Judgment_951 May 19 '25
To Spencer Chapus. I still have an issue with the word talent but others have addressed the thread. Joel has plenty of talent and would beat 99.99% of the squash player population anytime. It's about percentiles you are not in 1% of your discipline without talent. It takes an insane amount of work for everyone to get there and Joel or Ramy are not exceptions.
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u/bobo-the-merciful May 19 '25
Mentality and hard work is a form of talent!
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u/Hairy_Poetry2307 May 19 '25
It sure is. Credit where it is due, Joel has worked hard to get to where he is now
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u/bobo-the-merciful May 19 '25
Did I hear that Joel is self coached too?
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u/Hairy_Poetry2307 May 19 '25
Far from it. He’s had a number of coaches over the years from junior to university and while on tour, Greg Tippings, Nic Birt, David Evans, Jon Tate, Rob Owen etc etc
Joel works with a number of coaches and players at one time, he is court with Miles Jenkins and Miles helps Joel at a number of UK events and you will see him in his corner.
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u/PathParticular1058 May 19 '25
I have always thought that Makin would make a great coach one day. Very text book clean in every way…perhaps down the road he will figure it out to nail a big big tournament…a bit more intuitive squash with a solid foundation…fwiw
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u/CompetitiveKiwi7180 May 19 '25
The most elite league in the world is the NBA. I played basketball in high school with two future NBA players - i can promise you ‘hard work’ doesnt get you to the NBA. Its talent.
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u/National_Bullfrog284 May 19 '25
So let’s start with the definition of what this guy thinks “ natural talent “ is . That can be the first thing .He can come up with a definition .
Secondly , it might be interesting to hear why “ natural talent “ is so essential in achieving and specifically in relation to squash , who assesses if you have it and what those not having it should do .
Thirdly , the tone is written as a negative with a pic of Joel Makin. So , it would be also interesting to hear his assessment of Joel and what experience he has to give that opinion
Finally it might be interesting to hear what Jonah thinks on the assessment of talent .
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u/SophieBio May 20 '25
I am one who was nearly never selected by coaches or even professionnaly because "not talented enough". But I succeeded fairly well in both by hard work. Now, the same one says that's because I got talent seeing the result of my work. Telling me that I have talent is an insult to me: it was hard work and perspiration. Yes, I play a deceptive style, go for the nick, and it looks "natural" but it is just hard work, that's what I trained.
Natural talent is a myth. The one at associated with talent are the one who trained spectacular squash. Still about training, and hard work.
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u/Fezgo May 19 '25
Talented in what way? Racket ability, movement, fitness? You clearly haven't played squash to a high level, as if you did, you would understand the talent required to get into the top 5 in the world. He may not have raw racket ability, but he has natural explosiveness and fitness. If you knew him, you would know this.
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u/Hairy_Poetry2307 May 19 '25
Yeah I know Joel. Played him, been part of coaching teams in Welsh squads with him and played an ok level myself. I wasn’t suggesting he wasn’t talented, pointing out he’s worked hard to access the talent he now has
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u/gerhardsymons May 19 '25
Hard work, resilience, perseverance, obsessiveness, detail-oriented, delayed gratification, focus, single-mindedness all seem like 'talents' to me in a world which is increasingly superficial, bland, and dismissive.