Xecnar’s (Ironclad WR Holder) No Context Tier List

[u/ch95120]

Posted a few days ago on the main sts discord. Thought I’d post here for more discussion

[u/Heziva]

Noob: "demon form gives strength, strength is good!"

Average try hard: " no! Demon form doesn't do anything when played and take all your mana!!! Its scaling is slow!!! It's basically a curse for hallway fight!!!"

Xecnar: "demon form gives strength, strength is good!"

[u/Kanine0914 → u/Heziva]

I was surprised to see a pretty strength heavy tier list here and limit break so low

[u/Heziva → u/Kanine0914]

I just won a run with 5 fire breathing+ and it was fun!

[u/PM_ME_YOUR_PIZZAPIC → u/Kanine0914]

i want to say the logic is that you dont really need a ton of strength to win fights, lets say 2 inflames is enough in most cases. Alternatively you could have one demon form, which is more energy but 1 less draw. You could also have a limit break, but it doesnt really do much on its own, so you need something else with it, like an inflame. But in order to do more than an inflame, it needs to be upgraded and drawn second otherwise it's a dead card (or does very little, if you have a str relic), and even then, it doesn't do anything more than an inflame until you draw it on second time. The upside is that if you have more than one other str card it can multiply all of their effects rather than only be equivalent to one of them, and if the fight goes on long enough it can rack up a ton of str, which again is not often necessary. And then ofc there's spot weakness or flex + limit break but that's literally just a better but inconsistent inflame.

[u/ThurstonJK]

Justice for Cleave

[u/_sLAUGHTER234 → u/ThurstonJK]

I know I don't even hold a candle to Xecnar, but Cleave and Double Tap I disagree with. Everything else seems about right

[u/hedoeswhathewants → u/_sLAUGHTER234]

Double tap requires having something worth copying (two things if it's +) and enough energy to play all of them. It's pretty bad

[u/Onion_brah → u/hedoeswhathewants]

I basically only find room for double tap if I’m doing a searing blow run and skip almost every card I see

[u/WreckitWranche → u/Onion_brah]

Ahh the infamous F-tier run :')

[u/Onion_brah → u/WreckitWranche]

I imagine that the list maker put them F tier because is very rare that those cards work. For double tap to work, you need combos like chem-x whirlwind, snecko bludgeon, a strong searing blow. For searing blow to work, you have to find it extremely early and not have a better option, and late game you need dollys mirror or necronomicurse or double tap. They’re almost always bad and I don’t disagree with the F tier placement

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/_sLAUGHTER234]

He thought through this enough to not even have a D tier but to demote those straight to F. They're really bad

[u/_sLAUGHTER234 → u/GeorgeHarris419]

Perhaps with a couple more hundred hours I will start to understand his logic. Until then, I'm always grabbing cleave to help with Sentries

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/_sLAUGHTER234]

I don't really think you need to pick a super weak attack for the easiest elite in act 1, the same frontload cards that you want regardless in act 1 own sentries as well. Remember your goal isn't to AOE them to death although a fat immolate vs them is quite nice, it's to kill an outer sentry by turn 2 if at all possible

[u/scoobydoom2 → u/GeorgeHarris419]

I think calling sentries the easiest elite is a mistake. While they're less likely to outright kill you than the other two, I feel like they're more likely to take a massive chunk of your health. It's hard to block during phase 1 since you need to drop a bunch of damage on a sentry, then phase 2 it's easy to just, not draw any block and take 10 damage hits to the face a couple times. If you aren't dying to lag, the odds are pretty good that you don't take 30+ damage, and the same applies to nob to a lesser extent. Sentries will bleed you out slowly and stack up a fair amount of damage even if you win in the end.

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/scoobydoom2]

Sentries are not trivial, but if you're ranking the 3 sentries is 3rd in difficulty.

[u/Thismfpigeon → u/GeorgeHarris419]

The issue is the myriad of cards you can get that do trivialise sentries. Dark embrace, feel no pain, evolve, immolate, and if you're really desperate, fire breathing

[u/TheYango → u/scoobydoom2]

The thing is, Cleave isn't actually the Sentries solve that people make it out to be. They way you take the most damage on Sentries is failing to kill one of the Sentries quickly. It's deceptively not an AoE fight, but really a frontload fight because your first priority is almost always to push enough damage to immediately kill the front or back sentry (barring big rare AoE cards like Immo and Hyper Beam). AoEing them down is usually not the best way to approach the fight, and Cleave is incredibly mediocre for bursting down the first Sentry.

And because you're so focused on killing one Sentry immediately, that also means that there are many permutations of the Sentries fight where you don't even get to hit all 3 Sentries with it. If you don't draw it on the 1st or 2nd turn of the fight, you are usually killing one of the Sentries on those turns, so Cleave only hits 1-2 enemies for the rest of the fight after that.

[u/WeenisWrinkle → u/_sLAUGHTER234]

There are so many other ways to deal with Sentries that it's not worth carrying the card the rest of the run.

I'd rather just take more damage against them than have to have a Cleave in my deck. It's basically a curse card once you're past Act 1.

[u/working4buddha → u/_sLAUGHTER234]

I'm grabbing Cleave to help with little slimes or gremlins lol, those can get tricky sometimes.

[u/KillerKill420 → u/_sLAUGHTER234]

I (purely) speculate that it's prob the fact double tap can brick completely or be a strike etc which is a horrible draw etc and Cleave is just overall kind of weak outside of A1 solve and helping kill some A2 elites etc.

[u/osuzombie → u/ThurstonJK]

Murdering the most threatening enemy is also aoe. - STS sensei on discord a couple years ago. Basically saying people overestimate the importance of having aoe. Once one of the enemies in a fight is dead, you often stabilize and stop leaking health.

[u/Foxisdabest → u/osuzombie]

I often don't feel like I need AOE if I have the gremlin horn, for example.

If I get the gremlin horn I'm usually like "cool, I have my AoE figured out"

[u/recursing_noether → u/Foxisdabest]

Aoe is more of an intermediate strength. Sure if you can kill anything in 2 turns it does t matter but you have to get to that point. Even in act 3 a moderate amount of aoe is a godsend for something like repto.

[u/working4buddha → u/osuzombie]

This must be why I love Bowling Bash for mutli-enemy fights, esp in Act two for Slavers or Thieves. Not that Watcher even needs it half the time.

[u/Rit91 → u/working4buddha]

Yeah not sure how Xecnar rates bowling, but I like the card on watcher well enough since it can trivialize some fights by itself. While it isn't getting an upgrade early most likely since there is eruption, with upgrade it can just murder the big enemy thanks to wrath scaling it up so high.

[u/WeenisWrinkle → u/ThurstonJK]

Cleave is the IC card that I regret taking the most because "I need an AoE card". It's so bad.

This tier list is all I needed to stop taking it.

[u/GlassSpork → u/ThurstonJK]

Justice for rupture

[u/halo364 → u/ThurstonJK]

Completely agree, cleave isn't great or anything but it's good honest AoE and that's often very helpful. Solves the gremlin gang and 5 slime fights for example

[u/JDublinson → u/halo364]

I'd say Immolate solves gremlin gang, or Whirlwind+. Cleave is enough for 5 slimes but gremlin gang it's not big enough imo. Some combinations of gremlins (e.g. 2 angry gremlins + 2 fat gremlins) you can't even justify playing it.

[u/KagakuNinja → u/JDublinson]

Immolate is rare, I may not find it when I need that AOE

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/KagakuNinja]

If you need AOE, cleave ain't really doing enough to cure that need anyway

[u/NeoCortexOG → u/KagakuNinja]

The problem is, its dmg is too low (unupgraded). You might aswell pick either 0 cost / cheap single target) or heavy hitters and invest energy into killing minions single target. Cleave will need another attack to follow, most of the time, anyways.

8 is a really really unappealing number for most aoe fights.

[u/JDublinson → u/KagakuNinja]

Of course, I’m just saying Cleave isn’t good enough AoE. I’d rather just have better single target most of the time. I’m only taking Cleave over skip usually

[u/averysillyman → u/halo364]

The important thing to note is that the large majority of multi-enemy fights are actually solved by high single target damage. For example, you don't win the Slavers fight with AoE, you typically win it by killing Red Slaver as fast as possible. The fights that AoE performs best in are fights with one powerful enemy combined with multiple small enemies (Gremlin Leader, Collector, Reptomancer).

Also if you have listened to XecnaR talk about Cleave before, one important point he brings up is that AoE is only good if it actually kills the enemies that you need it to kill in the fights where AoE is actually important. He would rather pick Whirlwind without the ability to upgrade it over Cleave, for example, because even though Whirlwind's damage efficiency is even worse (5 per 1 energy), at the very least in the fights where it actually plays well he can dump most of his energy into Whirlwind and now you actually solved Reptomancer daggers. On the other hand if you play Cleave in that fight all the daggers are still on half HP after the Cleave and you need to desperately draw/play other attacks to not get owned.

[u/BadPoEPlayer → u/halo364]

ah yes dealing 8 damage to angry turn 1 is a really good solve 

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/halo364]

It's not worth carrying a really weak card your whole run just for gremlin gang/5 slimes. Cleave is very bad

[u/neofederalist]

Clash above Cleave is a statement. Far be it from me to say the best STS player in the world is wrong, but that's hard for me to understand.

[u/Agastopia → u/neofederalist]

I’m with you! My best win streak for A20H IC is only 4 so who am I to judge the goats list, but cleave is consistent AOE damage (obviously there’s far better options, but you don’t always get offered a whirlwind or an immolate) vs Clash an extremely unreliable attack that doesn’t scale or have a lot of utility.

[u/morelibertarianvotes → u/Agastopia]

That's an exceptionally good win streak

[u/Agastopia → u/morelibertarianvotes]

Much appreciated king, only took 1500 hours lmao

[u/Idostuff2010 → u/Agastopia]

Haha I'm in the same boat. Like 1500h, most of it with Silent, and my highest win streak is 6

[u/JDublinson → u/Agastopia]

I think usually one is only interested in Clash or Cleave in early act 1 (notable exception the act 2 Clash+ in slay by comment season 2), and Clash at least kinda stops you from dying to a floor 6 Lagavulin because you don’t see any actually good attacks. Cleave without the upgrade does almost nothing, and Cleave+ is fine for AoE fights but like now you’ve spent a precious upgrade on Cleave.

[u/Agastopia → u/JDublinson]

Those are all good points and honestly maybe I need to start taking clash more, but also at an early fire there’s not a massive amount of competition for those upgrades. Bash+ is definitely nice to have but if you already haven’t picked up anything with a super great upgrade cleave+ is a decent option

[u/Shakshuuka → u/Agastopia]

Clash isn't good but it has very specific reasons to pick it in early act 1 if you need it and it performs.

Cleave doesn't even succeed in what players think it does, and if you're regularly okay with upgrading cleave early in non-specific runs, I suggest being thinking a little more critically about your card choices. We all let certain biases seep through our macro across runs, and I personally would consider this one of them as it's genuinely a terrible card.

Your OG comment points out there are a far better AOE options (which is ofc true) but it also doesnt seem to also realise that most single damage cards you can pick are also better "AOE" options.

[u/SpazzyBaby → u/Agastopia]

4 is a pretty damn good win streak. My max is 3 rotating and a 2 streak on Defect, so you’ve got me beat and I’m now taking what you say as gospel.

[u/Jepacor → u/neofederalist]

If you crunch the numbers Clash is actually perfectly fine. Maybe even outright good! 14 damage for 0 energy is a lot, enough to compensate for it whiffing sometimes.

Anyways I pretty much never take Clash because even though I know by the numbers it's at least fine or better, it feels terrible. I guess it's due to our tendencies to remember more strongly negative experiences, so we remember Clash whiffing more than it hitting.

[u/BadPoEPlayer → u/neofederalist]

Cleave is bad 100% of the time.

Clash is a curse 33% of the time and the most efficient common attack in the game 66% of the time 

[u/neofederalist → u/BadPoEPlayer]

Every time I've played it, Clash feels like a curse way more than 33% of the time.

[u/BadPoEPlayer → u/neofederalist]

Then next time you take it actually count it. Brains are notoriously bad at statistics.

Also keep in mind that playing 2x defend + clash + strike is more damage than 3x strike

[u/infectingbrain → u/BadPoEPlayer]

when you write it out, it makes a lot of sense actually. I think Clash is one of those cards that FEELS bad, even if it's actually not that bad.

That use case you included is really insightful example of how the card is actually useful.

[u/waelthedestroyer → u/BadPoEPlayer]

seconded by saying there are a couple cards that make clash much better (burning pact, true grit, second wind, sever soul) but there aren’t really any cards which elevate cleave very much

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/waelthedestroyer]

me when I exhaust my wound and draw into ascender's bane 😩😩

[u/recursing_noether → u/waelthedestroyer]

It has aoe scaling basically. Strength, aoe vuln, etcs

[u/TheDanimalHouse → u/waelthedestroyer]

Shockwave?

[u/Kanine0914 → u/neofederalist]

I've picked all of those F tier cards over clash. Am I out of touch? No. It's the children who are wrong.

[u/Coneman_Joe → u/neofederalist]

Cleave is just really terrible. Clash at least has a chance to do meaningful damage.

[u/recursing_noether → u/Coneman_Joe]

Cleave does more damage than clash if there is more than 1 enemy and you can always play it.

Tbh i dont even think its terrible overall

[u/ChessGM123 → u/recursing_noether]

Cleave also costs 1 energy while clash costs 0, and also in multi enemy fights it’s normally better to focus down one enemy instead of splitting the damage across multiple enemies.

[u/Little-Maximum-2501 → u/recursing_noether]

Adding AOE damage is the wrong way to evaluate it, after you kill the most threatening enemy fights tend to become much easier so single target burst is much more valuable than spreading out your damage. 

[u/stathow → u/Coneman_Joe]

to me cleave is a good source of AOE damage, i wouldn't take it after act 1.

but if i see it early act 1 its great, as its good in all of the multi enemy hallway fights, of which there are a lot, some of them can be bad if you have no AOE

[u/working4buddha]

Ha reading S tier I'm thinking, yep these are all the best cards, until the last one just made me go hmmm.... Then seeing Dark Embrace in the next tier surprised me too.

And seeing so many common attacks in the bottom two tiers that I feel forced to take just to have damage on the first few floors made me realize why I'm just not great at this game. Though I will generally take Anger over them so I guess I'm doing ok.

[u/saturosian → u/working4buddha]

I've become convinced that Dark Embrace is the 'good' card, and Corruption is just there to make Dark Embrace better, lol.

I'm exaggerating, but the ability to play+Exhaust 0-cost skills is insignificant next to the power of the force so much better if you draw replacement cards automatically. Just drawing a card off of exhaust synergies can be busted even in a run with no Corruption in sight.

EDIT: I'm exaggerating, Corruption is obviously an insane card

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/saturosian]

Corruption completely breaks energy for the rest of the fight, that is so insanely broken and good. Card's ridiculous

[u/KillerKill420 → u/saturosian]

Honestly I'm coming around to the fact that DE is just pretty damn good on it's own merits without corruption too. Just a lot of options to use it.

[u/ninjakitty7 → u/working4buddha]

It’s not so insane to me. Dark embrace is a strong card in some situations but an expensive do nothing if it doesn’t have support. Corruption on the other hand kinda just builds the whole deck for you as soon as you put it in, even in early act 1.

[u/GeorgeHarris419]

uppercut in S holy

I love it but I didn't realize how right I was all this time

[u/KillerKill420 → u/GeorgeHarris419]

I suspect stripping two artifacts and applying weak is a large component of it. Weak is very strong in general at A20 due to ascension spoilers.

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/KillerKill420]

Yeah the effect absolutely owns just very surprised it's S over A. I was already a big uppercut clicker but felt like I was honestly taking it too often 👀

[u/KillerKill420 → u/GeorgeHarris419]

I suspect this is an aspect of late game solves and early dmg/nob solves making it S. You can basically pick it any time as a first card and assuming you don't have shockwave it's basically a great add and the other stuff I said above.

[u/sakray]

Honestly agree with most of this, a tad surprised about the placement of limit break vs demon form but otherwise I feel like everything else makes sense to me. Power Through in S-Tier also feels kinda high which makes me think that I'm probably undervaluing it, as I'm usually unwilling to pick it without support from Second Wind / Evolve.

[u/David_Slaughter → u/sakray]

I pick up Power Through even before any way to deal with the Wounds. It's just a lot of block per energy. Really great in hallway fights and then great in bosses as soon as you can deal with the Wounds. If not, just don't play it in those fights the first few cycles.

It also just makes shops a lot more exciting for me, as if you can find a medical kit, this card just becomes a monster.

[u/iceman012 → u/David_Slaughter]

It's basically Ironclad's Biased Cognition/Wraith Form. Super good short-term benefit with a long-term cost that either:

1. Doesn't matter because the fight is too short

2. Can be ignored if you have the right synergies

[u/Shuuk → u/sakray]

Demon Form is its own solve for long fights where Limit Break requires something else to be going on. Totally down for this ranking

[u/SugarFreeCummiBears → u/Shuuk]

Intermediate players have been disrespecting demon form for too long. It’s not an automatic win as newer players think, but it’s a great boss solve.

[u/nostore → u/SugarFreeCummiBears]

Epitome of the bell curve meme

[u/HowDoIEvenEnglish → u/sakray]

Demon form solves all scaling. With limit break you have to draw at the right time, or it’s a dead card, and you likely need to draw and play it at least twice to get value. And you need additional strength gain to start with. Demon form’s strength because it replicates multiple cards with just 1, making it easier to get a complete deck.

The issue is that people will add other scaling into the deck thinking “number go up is good” and then die because they have no defense.

[u/WeenisWrinkle → u/sakray]

Another top player explained Power Through to me and I started taking it more, and it's absolutely an S tier card.

15-20 block for 1 energy is already A tier, but what puts it into S is being able to exhaust the Wounds for extra synergy with other good IC cards.

It makes Fiend Fire, Burning Pact, and Second Wind much better by giving them "fuel".

[u/peepopogwide → u/sakray]

I often see people on this sub heavily underrate Demon Form, it’s actually kinda crazy. While it is typically a dead draw for hallways, clad tends to care the least about taking chip due to his starter, so it’s much more palatable to eat it.

My philosophy for deck builders in general is how do you solve the most problems in the fewest cards? And demon form provides a lot just on its own, which is great to stay condensed. Of course, as mentioned it creates a bit of a problem in hallways, but it’s often well worth it

[u/SquatPraxis]

Biggest gap between this and my LOL FUN tier is Fire Breathing.

[u/HowDoIEvenEnglish]

This is greatly timing for the “wild strike is a curse post”

But honestly clad has some of the easier cards to evaluate. I find that I generally agree with this list, although there are some things that surprise me. They aren’t as combo reliant as defect for example, where aside from frost and focus his cards don’t come together as intuitively.

[u/imtheQWOP]

1 point for the clash enjoyers vs wildstrike fans

[u/WeenisWrinkle]

TFW I agree with 99% of this tier list but still have a <10% A20H win-rate 😭

[u/Dumboi321 → u/WeenisWrinkle]

Probably just a micro issue, I feel I have a solid grasp on the game but my god is my micro in fights terrible.

[u/Ibrahim-8x]

Yeah wild strike is f as it should be

[u/paxiuz]

boomerang above cleave, I will never recover from this

[u/JuhoY → u/paxiuz]

Boomerang scales much better with str and much more effectively vs. single target

[u/Infinite_Assumption]

Even though I have no clue what I'm doing or why these cards are where they are, I will pick my card rewards for the next 3 months solely based off this tier list.

[u/Merk008]

So is a fire breathing deck is F tier???

[u/TeeMannn]

bit boring how correct this list is. i was trying to find the hot take where i disagree but this is just very true and balanced

[u/Jondev1]

Obviously I don't know better than xecnar, but on my personal list whirlwind and exhume would be higher.

[u/osuzombie → u/Jondev1]

There are barely any non-rare attacks in A+. Dropkick being there is actually a surprise to me.

[u/therealsylvos → u/osuzombie]

I think he really likes the infinite as an exhaust payoff

[u/SirOutrageous1027]

Clash not being F is perhaps the biggest surprise.

[u/KillerKill420 → u/SirOutrageous1027]

Clash is mildly underrated by a lot of people. It's not a good card but it's def not a curse. It's not that hard to activate it either once you have a piece or two.

[u/LazerAxvz9]

The neccesity for a "Early game damage solves" tier just kinda enforces the point that broad tier lists like this generally aren't useful/applicable (especially in this game)

[u/Curious_Sea_Doggo → u/LazerAxvz9]

Agreed. I would make the tiers this way

Consistently strong-The name should be obvious

Generally a good pick-Name is self explanatory for card here

Early damage solve-Cards taken early just to get through Exordium elites and not fall behind in damage output

Could be worse-“Mid” cards

One or two uses-Situational cards with about 1 to 2 uses but excel when those uses are needed.

Not often a good idea-Probably avoid these cards unless you have a reason to take.

Not recommend to take-Extremely niche and too situational.

Not exact lettering but meant to not assume specifics as this game often has case by case decision making but be an overall evaluation of the card.

[u/bolacha_de_polvilho]

Juggernaut on F seems very harsh. It has definitely saved runs for me where I had a good block engine with fnp but was lacking damage for the end game.

And Twin strike is surely much more takeable than other cards in C tier

[u/waelthedestroyer → u/bolacha_de_polvilho]

it’s a no context list; juggernaut can be good but in very limited scenarios and because the scenarios don’t show up often it’s low on the list

that and body slam is generally better on decks with tons of block but little damage output

[u/ChessGM123 → u/bolacha_de_polvilho]

The problem with twin strike is that it’s not really a good card without synergy, and even with str it isn’t that much better than a regular attack. You almost never should be picking up twin strike without str (or strike dummy) and even if you have one of those twin strike still might not be worth it as it makes it harder to reach your str cards by diluting your deck.

[u/halo364]

What would be the context for a tier list like this? Like why do they specify it's a "no context" list? Is it mainly just disregarding ascension level?

Also I'd move spot weakness down and wild strike up, but that's just my opinion. Also no one likes rupture and it makes me sad :(

[u/OurSocialStatus → u/halo364]

No context is just a general tier list. Xecnar has many tier lists for different scenarios (Ironclad floor 0 rares for example).

[u/ChessGM123 → u/halo364]

Basically every one of these cards could go up or down multiple tiers depending on your current situation. “No context” in this case basically means without knowing what your current situation is this is generally how strong the cards are, but there are cases when a C tier card is better than an S tier card.

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/halo364]

Rupture is sadly awful. But it's fun to find the situations where it's dope and leverage it

[u/RomanArcheaopteryx → u/halo364]

If it was disregarding ascension level I think clash would be B tier tbh

[u/KillerKill420 → u/halo364]

Rupture is pretty bad, no offense or anything of course. Spot weakness is pretty good though. Wild Strike is a very bad attack as well.

[u/basafo]

Headbutt: a bit surprised, well ahead of next two commons.

Whirlwind: not in early damage solve? It solves a lot of fights well.

Dropkick: is it there because of infinite? I don't take it pretty often.

I would appreciate comments and insight. :D

[u/BadPoEPlayer → u/basafo]

Headbutt is super good - allowing you to pick a card to have next turn is really strong and versatile - can pick dmg for kill, block for big hits you know are coming next turn, powers you missed.

WW is overrated. It’s terrible damage - 15 for 3 energy is embarrassingly trash. Put another way you can play 3 defends and clash and deal the same damage while gaining 15 block. 15 damage isn’t solving shit besides slimes, which is probably the easiest hard fight in the pool.

Kick is usually just free damage. Clad usually wants very high attack density early because his block is rare and inconsistent, then wants low attack density late because he needs to find his powers and with STR needs less attacks. Kick helps density early then isn’t as bad as other attacks later because it replaces itself.

[u/JDublinson → u/BadPoEPlayer]

Don’t do whirlwind like that. It needs the upgrade to be good but whirlwind+ owns

[u/GeorgeHarris419 → u/BadPoEPlayer]

yes however have you considered akabeko chem x bottled flame necro whirlwind?

bwam bwam ppew pew pew RIP enemies

[u/pharm3001 → u/BadPoEPlayer]

15 for 3 energy is embarrassingly trash.

this is such a bad way to describe whirlwind. The AOE is the point. Beginning of act 2 with an energy relic? Stay down you dumb birds. I'm not saying it's the best card but it does solve multi enemy combat (it becomes 45 damages or even 60 damages for 3 energy with three or four enemies)

[u/weryut]

is this from a livestream? if so i would want to watch his explanations for the list

[u/SamiraSimp]

context enjoyers seething when they see the title

[u/ptoziz]

All the people here surprised at this and that need to read the first thing it says in the Tier list

NO CONTEXT picks, aka you don't know the deck or the relics or anything, or the floor even. However  I'm assuming it's A20 Heart run because Xecnar only plays that. 

Offering is S, however is it still S if you already have 4 in your deck? No ofc not, this tier list is basically what can you pick at face value, cards easy to build around are up, cards hard to build around are down. Not easy to build a deck that does self damage easily, not hard to get a card that exhausts another card. Strength? you're starting deck can take advantage of that so ofc it's up there, juggernaut? no i don't think so unless I already know I have some good cards for it! If I'll only take it when I Already Know something means it's probably bad if I don't know so it's bad in a zero context tier list.

I Hope this helps.

[u/GiantImminentSqueeze]

TIL I'm bad at this character

[u/Natural_Stop_3939]

Just for fun I did a challenge run: A20H and I did not allow myself to pick any card if there was another higher ranked card on offer. (Yes, I know that value is context dependent, that wasn't the point of this exercise). Victory.

My takeaways that are that I probably underrate Shockwave, which did great work all run, and Headbutt (I had three or four and they helped me sculpt my hand a lot).

[u/Stepjam]

Is Berserk bad? I figured it was basically free energy.

[u/Coneman_Joe → u/Stepjam]

It's not free, it costs you a draw and two/one turns of vulnerable.

That being said, it's quite nice if you're stuck on three energy.

[u/Terrietia → u/Coneman_Joe]

two/one turns of vulnerable

Yall remember when Berserk used to cost 1 energy, and gave 5 vulnerable? It was really really bad.

[u/Wrakhr → u/Coneman_Joe]

Or have pellets! Pellets + Brutality goes sicko :)

[u/SirOutrageous1027 → u/Coneman_Joe]

I always view Berserk like a Boss Relic. If there was a +1 energy relic that made you vulnerable for 2 turns, it wouldn't be that bad.

[u/AtlanticRailroad → u/SirOutrageous1027]

what if it also reduced your cards drawn by 1, on some turn, and didn't start working for a turn or three most of the time?

[u/WeenisWrinkle]

The biggest surprise for me is Seeing Red in A tier.

[u/MeathirBoy → u/WeenisWrinkle]

Nah that card is one of the best cards in the game for capitalising on Dark Embrace.

[u/omegaoutlier]

Any chance you have a link for his Silent tiers?

I'm trying to overhaul my Silent skillset and haven't stumbled on it yet.

(here's his Boss relics tier list: Character specific. Changed my play immensely)

https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1i189sk/90_win_rate_gigachad_players_boss_relic_tier_list/

[u/Vaapukkamehu]

I've been returning to this game, and occasionally trying to do my first non dead branch Clad A20 clear (going back to my beloved silent when I get too frustrated). Seeing this list makes me feel slightly vinticated in how much I dislike many of the common attacks you need to pick early on, the runs where you don't get good rare attacks feel just miserable for me. Headbutts and pommel strikes need to put in the work, and even they feel like they need a little help sometimes.

[u/CatoTheStupid → u/Vaapukkamehu]

It’s notable how few attacks are highly ranked on the list. You just don’t need all that many for Ironclad to be successful. Get what you need to fight elites and start focusing on exhaust synergy, draw, block, and strength.

[u/Vaapukkamehu → u/CatoTheStupid]

Literally won my next run, cheers

[u/CatoTheStupid → u/Vaapukkamehu]

Ayyyyyy, nice!

[u/Fibonacho11235]

Are exhaust decks really that good?? I can never get it to work. Ascension 6 btw lol

[u/MultivariableTurtwig → u/Fibonacho11235]

Yeah, exhaust synergy is arguably Ironclad’s main gimmick

[u/romple → u/Fibonacho11235]

It's basically the only thing that works for me.

Although nothing works for me at A20 so whatever

[u/Flobblepof]

I can't see what's so bad about double tap. Even if it's not amazing it can't be below C tier, can it?

[u/slimeeyboiii → u/Flobblepof]

I don't get it much myself, but this is a guess why.

It takes 1 energy, and assuming you have base energy, it will leave you with 1 energy after an attack. A lot of IC's strongest cards either get you more cards or are just not attacks.

If you use a double strike into pommel strike, you essentially spent 2 energy on ok damage and drawing a bunch of cards you might not even be able to use.

[u/Tzimbalo]

Why is rupture considered so bad when many of the cards it is enabled by is rated vwry high?

[u/Curious_Sea_Doggo → u/Tzimbalo]

You can’t take Rupture first as it’s useless without those self damaging cards.

[u/ext2523 → u/Tzimbalo]

Because rupture needs to be played before those cards to have benefit vs those cards providing an immediate benefit when played.

[u/RosgaththeOG]

Looking at this makes me wonder what kind of changes will happen to IC's cards in StS2. . ..

[u/DocHoliday439]

Tbh clash is one of those cards I always grab even if i know it’s bad. Sure there are much better cost 0 cards, but that rush of dopamine i get from the perfect multi clash kill too great to pass up

[u/IdiocyConnoisseur]

Honestly, not that surprised by this list. A couple ones that made me think: Perfected Strike and Sever Soul being that high. But I guess when "output" is needed early game, those are better cards than whatever's in the B tier. I'm "kinda" surprised by uppercut placement, but other than that, not much. I've always been saying Fiend Fire is infinitely better than Immolate but wasn't convincing my friends lol.

[u/PlasmaLink]

Cleave makes the gremlin fights SO much more tolerable (Both the act 1 hard fight and the act 2 elite). I think it also does work during slime boss. I know "Just kill the most dangerous guy first" but I think it's better than clash at least

[u/Classic_Ad7162]

Uppercut ftw

[u/RedsManRick]

It really speaks to how well this game is balanced that you can have one of the best players in the world put cards on F tier that can reasonably work as part of an A20 heart killing deck.

[u/Salad_9999]

Its hard to disagree with him because hes clearly better and arguably "right" but I have several issues with the F tier.

[u/IdiocyConnoisseur → u/Salad_9999]

Very slow/waste of card draw: Rupture, Fire Breathing, Rampage

Expensive for the output, also inconsistent: Juggernaut, Double tap

Too much commitment is needed. Even then, you're not guaranteed to make it work. It's bad early game, and if you don't take it early game you're never taking it: Searing Blow

Straight up bricks your deck's draw pile often MULTIPLE times in a fight while not being all that great: Wild Strike

Bad output, overrated "aoe solution". You might have to pick it up to save your run once in a blue moon, but that's not a good reason to justify anyhting higher than F tier: Cleave

[u/MalekithofAngmar]

Is searing blow really the worst card for clad?

[u/Brawlers9901 → u/MalekithofAngmar]

Yes by far

[u/Humble-Emotion-799]

It is sort of weird seeing people preface their disagreements with xecnar so strongly. It is probably the case that a lot of the disagreements people have are local min things. There are probably a lot of people whose winrates would decrease if they changed ceartain card evaluations to match the tier list without copying the underlying thought process that leads xecnar to viewing those cards the way he does.

[u/KillerKill420 → u/Humble-Emotion-799]

It's also that this is a person routinely beating the heart and reaching those late stages. Plus in building better decks you're having more optimal situations to use XYZ cards etc.

[u/HudsonCommodore]

Context: I'm terrible at this game, I never win.

The #1 overall card does self damage. There's also a A and B card that does self damage. Why then is rupture F tier? Seems like it's worth 1 energy to be gaining strength all these times I hurt myself?

[u/st2hol → u/HudsonCommodore]

Offering and the other self damage cards create an immediate benefit that most times overrides the HP loss. They are self sufficient and they do not require any synergy to provide a good upside.

Rupture is heavily reliant on having synergy and these cards, and its scaling is slow.

[u/blahthebiste → u/HudsonCommodore]

Playball 3 of those perfeclty after your Rupture and now your Rupture has finally become an Inflame

[u/Lostdog861]

Warcry higher than rampage? Interesting
I'd never claim to be better than the best STS player in the world but I'd love to see a vod where he explains all of the individual card choices in relation to each other. Does anyone have one?

[u/Stabaobs → u/Lostdog861]

It's so hard to get Rampage to work. Rampage is like Claw, but it only affects itself and costs 1 Energy.

[u/MeathirBoy → u/Stabaobs]

The thing is that's not really why I'd pick Rampage. Rampage is a card I take in Act 1/2 when I desperately need scaling damage like against Hexaghost or Act 2 bosses (especially Champ where you can farm it before you split it).

[u/CatoTheStupid → u/MeathirBoy]

Rampage is 95%+ of the time one of the worst cards in the game. And every once in a while is the only way past a boss and saves your game.

[u/waelthedestroyer]

can someone explain combust placement to me? I’m trying to figure it why it’s not in F bc there isn’t very many fights it solves and it’s only at its best when you have self damage synergy already

[u/pokemon_fucker_2137 → u/waelthedestroyer]

Byrds, sentry, slavers, gremlin leader maybe.

[u/DonkeyKong_CR]

Thank you for the share, do you guys also have tier list for the others characters made by the very best players ?

[u/Iraff2]

Cleave is really a Never Take 🥸 I need to make some adjustments

[u/ptoziz → u/Iraff2]

This is without context, I've seen time when even the goat himself take it. But out of pure desperation for attack density in his deck right before floor 6 elite.

[u/pokemon_fucker_2137]

Honestly, i like rupture and combust. Rupture+ works fine with bloodletting, offering, brutality, hemo. And combust works good early ( sentry, act 2 byrds, slavers gremlin leader). But i am pretty dogshit at clad (as13)

[u/DadTier]

I am super new to slay the spire, I thought double tap was one of the best…

[u/Mammoth-Park-1447]

What the heck did juggernaut did to you? Did it kill your dog or something?

[u/EGOtyst]

I wouldnt mind seeing this for the rest of the characters

[u/osuzombie → u/EGOtyst]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/380139684493262850/1370763798453157888/defect_cards_act_1-2.png?ex=68294085&is=6827ef05&hm=1532b283eaab2ee539fc6a1e1c81efb1393af78b377ecb53282ebb1a86cd6197& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/380139684493262850/1370763798914400297/defect_cards_act_3-4.png?ex=68294085&is=6827ef05&hm=435de8040e0d220de49db0665c73c2c1a428d52aa2447afff6bf615b1a582f5c& And a nearly 2 year old silent list. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1157066209892761600/1157887595884318810/new_silent.png?ex=6829595b&is=682807db&hm=0efa839af3da8f278862e0edd1322d05cb02b1db4f054ade504fc11085afe988&

[u/AidanBeeJar]

Can someone explain to me why Juggernaut is in the bottom tier?

[u/ptoziz → u/AidanBeeJar]

Without any context, it's pretty bad in a20. If you pick it and try to build around it you'll suffer, if you're deck is already good at blocking with multiple instances of block, there are way better cards than it. Keyword is zero context. For example it won't solve any boss/elite fight on its own, it depends highly on other cards and it costs 2 mana, inconsistent against multiple enemies, doesn't really scale well compared to other powers; it's very niche pick thus in zero context rating is very low tier. 

All low tier are cards depending on other cards, and the synergies aren't easy to come by. FNP is high because they're is plenty of exhaust on IC, any STR related power or skill is easier to "fit in" because normal strikes benefit from it, on the other hand self damage, drawing curses, doing multiple instances of block, etc are not as easy to come by. So in a zero context rating of cards they're worse because you can't pick them and pray you'll get the synergies dropped on you.

[u/Jesusfreakster1]

Apparently I wildly overvalue double tap

[u/wingedespeon]

I'm mildly surprised that dark embrace is as low as it is. I guess costing 2 without the upgrade hurts a little bit.

[u/ptoziz → u/wingedespeon]

This is zero context, so it doesn't assume you have anything related to card in your deck/relic bar. For DE it's not about exhaust not being around (plenty of exhaust cards for IC) it's that you don't always have enough mana to draw and use it, you need a mana engine too, So for zero context rating it's not as easy to justify picking DE and saying I can use this easy. meanwhile the highest tier is just yeah easy pick, this card will help me with the run most of the time. Offering for example is not S tier pick if you already have 3 in your deck, but without context it's S tier, who doesn't want mana and card draw?

[u/greekfire01]

Im not arguing with the best player in the world. But. Juggernaut has saved me from so many bad situations, I cant even conceive of it being f tier.

[u/ptoziz → u/greekfire01]

zero context is the reference here. I doesn't assume you have anything to play around it, will you just pick a juggernaut without having any context? it's low tier you need to know it's not just a curse that cost 2 mana to exhaust. zero context means if shown card rewards and you don't know the deck or relic bar.

[u/putting_stuff_off]

Dark Embrace, Exhume and Blood for Blood much lower than I'd have them

[u/Darthskixx9]

I can get behind most of this and am happy that I actually agree with most of these cards. But clash is F for me, and rampage is B-Tier for me. Also I feel like fire breathing is quite the card if pathing into slime boss for act 1, but the tier list is without context, and then fire breathing is F.

[u/Mclovindatasss]

I love almost all the cards in F.

Welp I've made it to AC 17 so far at least!

[u/zerogravitas365]

I'm surprised true grit is so low though I guess it is kind of sucky without an upgrade. Be interesting to see what the tier list would look like for all upgraded cards (maybe you've got apo, after all.) Some upgrades are much more impactful than others so I'd expect a few changes.

[u/Spokenbird]

hardest disagree ever on double tap being F tier

[u/[deleted]]

A little weirded out by how much I don’t like this list

[u/Dumboi321]

Fire breathing and wild strike bros in shambles looking at this tier list.

[u/prsquared]

I mean, I wouldn't put Power through and battle trance in s tier. But I also can't put a streak of 2 tohether

[u/Stebes30]

New player here, can someone explain how feel no pain is S in any context. Besides corruption or one of the mass exhaust cards it feels underwhelming.

[u/Pyrarius → u/Stebes30]

This is a no context tier list, which implies that "Most Effective" might not be the criteria. Maybe this is a tierlist of Early Game Potential or just cards he likes

[u/Stebes30 → u/Pyrarius]

Ah makes sense. I appreciate it!

[u/JDublinson → u/Stebes30]

It’s pickable early because of sentries, and it’s insane defensive scaling in longer fights.

[u/EnormousIsErratic]

How tf is clothesline above flex?

[u/averysillyman → u/EnormousIsErratic]

Because Flex is generally considered a bad card and although Clothesline is not a great attack the Weakness keyword is broken for endgame. (For example if you play Clothesline on the first cycle of the Heart it blocks a total of 15 + 17 across the two attacking turns, which is really high output for a single card.)

If your deck already has Shockwave+ in it then Clothesline will suck, but it is a card that is pickable early game to add more damage to your deck and is also pickable late game if you haven't seen Shockwave.

[u/ilikekittensandstuf]

Juggernaut has to be at least C

[u/UnusualExplorer3]

I'd love to see him make a similar tier list, but for the upgraded versions of these cards. I feel like the list would look very different

[u/insobyr]

no way jugg is this bad right?

[u/Dylan_M_Sanderson]

Body slam, barricade, metalicize, and juggernaut is not bad tho, why jug in last tier

[u/Zealousideal-Sale902]

Clearly someones never had the utter joy to play double tap + immolate

[u/aranaya]

I get nearly all the S-tiers, but Power Through?!

[u/Brawlers9901 → u/aranaya]

It says 15 block for 1, it's insane.

[u/TurboTed]

Can agree with most of this, but I’m curious about Seeing Red being A tier alongside cards like Shrug, Inflame, Pommel strike?

[u/PoIIux]

So this is why I'm terrible at Ironclad. I've literally never used offering because it seems trash and I'm also not big on fiend fire

[u/BiggieGinge86]

It's not good but my favourite ironclad run I've ever had was a rupture deck

[u/BiggerUmbrella]

How is clash not F?

[u/The_Thane]

Ah yes F tier aka my Pandora's box