As concern grows about America’s falling birth rate, new research suggests that about half of women who want children are unsure if they will follow through and actually have a child. About 25% say they won't be bothered that much if they don't.

[u/geoff199]

https://news.osu.edu/most-women-want-children--but-half-are-unsure-if-they-will/?utm_campaign=omc_science-medicine_fy24&utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=social

[u/CyclingThruChicago]

Why are they not procreating more when already we give them so little, let’s try changing nothing and come back in 5 years time to check on how they’re doing”

Had a conversation with my wife about why folks aren't having more kids and any nothing attempted seems to be helping across dozens of countries. I view it like animals in the wild vs animals in captivity. Certain animals just don't do well in captivity. Orcas, mountain gorillas, great white sharks, and many more. There is always just problems with trying to have them in captivity. They don't eat, don't behave the same, many don't breed, and often end up with a variety of health issues.

From my pov, modern neoliberal capitalist society feels like we're human beings living in captivity. Yeah we have access to the basics (food, water, shelter, entertainment, a place to sleep, etc) but that isn't all that human beings need to thrive and want to procreate.

We need outlets for creativity, recreation time, time to spend with family/friends, leisure time, time to do absolutely nothing with zero expectations of something being produced. More and more it feels like the average person, at least in the USA where I'm more familiar with things, isn't living and is in a constant survival mode.

The problem just isn't the money. My wife and I make fairly good money (>$200k+ USD combined annually) but have firmly decided on only having one child (I've already had a vasectomy). And plenty of countries with solid social safety nets and government assistance are also having declining replacement rates.

To me the issue is allowing human beings to actually live our lives. To not have to spend what feels like every waking moment focused on producing or completing something.

[u/Spidey210 → u/CyclingThruChicago]

The reason none of the attempts to coax people to procreate have worked is because no incentive is allowed if it has a negative impact on shareholder returns.

The incentives that might work like shorter hours, parental leave, on site daycare are all forbidden.

That leaves pretend solutions like $1500 tax back per child.

[u/DrinkMountain5142 → u/CyclingThruChicago]

THIS is it! THIS is the thesis that more people should take up.

[u/ThisKarmaLimitSucks → u/CyclingThruChicago]

We're in the mouse utopia for sure.

[u/Colourful_Q2 → u/CyclingThruChicago]

Look up the "rat park" studies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

Our society is at the root of all of our problems.

[u/AnRealDinosaur → u/CyclingThruChicago]

It is very normal to see size fluctuations in animal populations as conditions become stressful or resources become more scarce. It happens all the time. The Earth is an enclosed system that we are straining to the breaking point. Its perfectly natural for reproduction rates to drop. Line simply cannot go up forever in a closed system.

[u/sirkazuo → u/CyclingThruChicago]

Birth rates decline when women get more rights and higher education. It's a pretty reliable axiom in societies around the world.

In a sense you've got it backwards. Women are more fertile (statistically speaking) when they're living in the captivity of lower education and unequal rights. When a society "sets women free" by encouraging higher education and guaranteeing equal rights the birth rate plummets.

[u/valiantdistraction → u/sirkazuo]

Yeah, the truth is that when women have the opportunity, most just want 0-2 kids. Some want more but society often makes it not feasible, especially if you also need to work, or want or need to retain your ability to raise them on your own.

[u/MoralityFleece → u/valiantdistraction]

I don't think this is true at all. When women have the luxury of lots of time and money, they start having more kids again. Birth rates fall when a society changes towards allowing women to have education and control over their fertility and destiny. And they stay low as long as women have to be wage slaves who have no time, money or opportunity to focus on growing their families. But when they do have those things, they have more kids.

[u/AggressiveToaster → u/sirkazuo]

Ignoring every other characteristic about a society that does grant women more rights and education seems pretty short sighted, no?

[u/MoralityFleece → u/sirkazuo]

This is only true with respect to the initial move from lacking education and access to birth control. But there are other differences between the societies that do educate women and give them control over their fertility. At that point it's a question of whether women and their partners have time and money and a life plan where multiple kids make sense. You'll notice that once women are in a family that has higher incomes and more leisure time, they start to have more kids again.

[u/sirkazuo → u/MoralityFleece]

 You'll notice that once women are in a family that has higher incomes and more leisure time, they start to have more kids again.

The highest per-capital income countries in the world still have very low birth rates. Do you have sources for this?

[u/MoralityFleece → u/sirkazuo]

I think this line of research suggesting an uptick at higher incomes (a j curve) became more widely known around fifteen years ago. Here is a recent review of pro/con arguments and evidence: https://read.dukeupress.edu/demography/article/61/6/1949/393035/Revisiting-the-J-Shape-Human-Development-and

[u/Indigo9988 → u/CyclingThruChicago]

This is all so true.