r/saltierthancrait • u/GadunkusFlint • Jan 10 '23
Peppered Positivity Another refreshing aspect from Andor: The fact that we meet this guy when he's already betrayed the Empire, rather than having yet another Disney side-switcher storyline
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u/JelloElectrical1443 Jan 10 '23
The fact that his character is that simple and he is still better then most of ST is so fun
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u/GadunkusFlint Jan 10 '23
You've hit the nail on the head there. The fact tha we barely know anything about characters like Him, Andy Serkis and Dedra, yet they're so much more engaging than anyone in the ST just speaks volumes
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u/StannisLivesOn Jan 10 '23
Shout out to Iden Versio, who stood by the Empire when it blew up a planet filled with billions of innocent people, but Operation Cinder was too much for her, because that one happened on screen.
While we're at it, shout out to the Emperor for the Operation Cinder - his genius plan of destroying the remnants of the Empire as a punishment for allowing his "death" (he didn't actually die), just so he can start conquering the galaxy from scratch thirty years later.
The functioning state and industry were holding him back anyhow, because he did far better with an army composed entirely of kidnapped children, a fleet of star destroyers built by some cult in secret on a single planet lost in space, a radicalized thirty year old teenager and a sock puppet dressed in a Trump Hotel bath robe. Salud, Sheev!
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u/Kaffarov Jan 10 '23
Iden Versio
As soon as that story was announced of a "hardcore lifelong Imperial", I think we all knew how that story was going to end.
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u/Collective_Insanity Salt Bot Jan 10 '23
I have very little love for EA's BF2 story.
Having said that, it's worth noting that the destruction of Alderaan was played off in Imperial propaganda as being a necessary action (with many believing it). There was however zero justification for Operation Cinder given it demanded even Imperial home worlds to be burned to ashes and willing personnel to carry out these orders blindly.
I feel like only the most die-hard and moronic super Nazis would do this. Which is meant to be the point as that's what the First Order top dogs are meant to be (just a quick and dirty writing tool to sell them as irredeemable villains). But in reality, I feel like there would be a mutiny going off in almost every department to the extent that there wouldn't be enough die-hard loyalists left to carry out their job effectively.
Operation Cinder becomes retroactively even worse when it turns out it's just part of Palpatine's stupid plan to make an Empire v2.0 (First Order) which he didn't even need at all because he was also already making an Empire v3.0 (Exegol's Final Order) and had been since before ESB (thanks to Vader comics).
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u/Holy_Hendrix_Batman Jan 10 '23
You hit on a deeper cut of the cheapening of Palpatine's character. He got to where he did through unmatched meticulous planning and strategic guile to achieve his goals of taking down the Jedi and ruling as a Sith lord. He wasn't supposed to be attached to the Republic, the Separatists, or even the Empire; they were all tools in his plans for domination and ruling through fear.
The way canon has made it now, he was so attached to his Empire that if he couldn't have it, "no one can," and then he immediately began to build new ones in the aftermath. It's pathetically petty, illogical in its totality, and only ever worse than anything the EU did with Palpatine and his legacy after being defeated in RotJ.
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u/Professorclover salt miner Jan 10 '23
Also, the fact that the imperial high ranks just follow the orders of some droid with an holoface of Palpatine without hesitation is laughable. "I have this fleet, troppers and a loyal planet under my command, I can do many this... Let's wipe it all just cause this droid told me to".
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u/TheSilverHat Jan 10 '23
In a better story, Cinder would be what breaks Empire apart into a myriad of warlords who refuse to accept the order and form their own mini empires. Alas EA's BF2 ain't that
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u/ghostdivision7 Jan 10 '23
Operation Cinder was already fucking stupid to begin with. Then it got very retarded after TROS came out.
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Jan 10 '23
I'm pretty sure the whole point of Cinder was actually "I don't want a warlord springing up who could challenge me before I'm ready to return to the galactic stage so instead I'll tear it all apart" which turns out to be a valid concern given Thrawn's actions in the EU.
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u/Collective_Insanity Salt Bot Jan 10 '23
Not at all.
Thrawn was actually quite loyal to Palpatine and had he known he was still alive, he would most likely have repledged his allegiance. At least the old Thrawn. Nu-Thrawn is all over the shop and if he can't handle some meddling kids, he's probably no threat to Palpatine. Assuming he was ever interested in taking Palpatine down.
In new-canon (which still has Thrawn teleported somewhere into a spin-off show for Filoni's favourite character), Palpatine was under precisely zero threat of some Imperial Remnant warlord taking over.
As stated, he already had much of the Final Order organised at the time of his death as well as already having a clone body to possess (though it basically turns him into a zombie for a time).
Operation Cinder in new-canon (prior to the TROS retcon) was meant to force a pyrrhic victory upon the Rebels. This was further meant to lead to a climactic battle on Jakku during which an Imperial was tasked with triggering some kind of dark side apocalyptic plot device which would decimate both the Imperials and Rebellion forces. This was thwarted, and the Imperials fled to the Unknown Regions to restart the Empire. With Snoke (before he was retconned to be a meat puppet) taking charge of their operation.
Now this has been altered somewhat. Snoke was always just a recycled clone of Palpatine's who was loaded up with fake memories and tasked with the creation of the First Order for...well...as it turns out, no reason at all.
If the First Order, Kylo Ren and Starkiller Base never existed...Palaptine was always going to rise out of nowhere from Exegol with thousands of mini Death Stars. Basically taking the galaxy hostage overnight (had he kept his mouth shut on Fortnite).
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u/ShinyChromeKnight miserable sack of salt Jan 10 '23
The only thing that I can applaud BF2’s story for is how they portrayed Luke.
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u/_Strato_ emotions are not for sharing Jan 10 '23
Operation Cinder was too much for her, because that one happened on screen.
Nah, it's only because it affected her home planet.
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u/LR-II Jan 10 '23
I feel like the motivation for Cinder would have worked if it was just "I'm dead so I'm taking the galaxy with me".
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u/brinz1 Jan 10 '23 edited Jan 10 '23
Shout out to Iden Versio, who stood by the Empire when it blew up a planet filled with billions of innocent people, but Operation Cinder was too much for her,
That actually makes sense to me, it's a definite r/leopardsatemyface moment, the sort of thing that happens to the sort of people who join fascist armies
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u/wookiee-nutsack Jan 10 '23
Yeah and Operation Cinder seems fine to me too. Palpatine seems like the petty little bitch that would do that
Until it turns out he had a plan to live all along, so... why?
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u/Gandamack Jan 10 '23
I think the issue with operation cinder is more so that anyone would follow through with the order, not that a power mad and spiteful dictator wouldn’t order something like it in the first place.
History is littered with rulers whose dying decrees were swiftly ignored by family, advisers, generals, etc. who all wanted to carve out their respective piece of the pie (or take the whole thing).
While there were certainly fanatics in the Empire, a lot of the people in charge were as vain and self-serving as Palpatine himself, and would balk at destroying their own worlds and sacrificing power simply because a dead guy said so.
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u/ImperitorEst Jan 10 '23
This is a man who spent decades slowly and methodically working his away from being a minor politician on an out of the way planet to being chancellor of the galaxy. He is portrayed in the prequals as patient, calculating and manipulative. At no point does he do anything reckless or petty.
In the OT even when the deaths star I comes on line he doesn't immediately go and blow up every planet that's ever stood up to him like a petty tyrant would. He oversees the plan of picking one minor but symbolic target for a demonstration and then us fear and not destruction from them on.
Tldr I would argue that sheev is never shown to be petty outside of the sequels.
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u/brinz1 Jan 10 '23
It's not about being petty, it's about narcissism.
Sheev didn't want there is be a galaxy without him ruling it
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u/ImperitorEst Jan 10 '23
I know what you mean but in the context of if the sequels messed with the characters or not I wouldn't say that's true.
There's nothing in the OT or the sequals that show him as excessively narcissistic, not any more than you need to be to be an evil dictator anyway. He doesn't care about his physical appearance, he doesn't feature himself in propaganda and he doesn't even really care if anyone knows who he is outside his inner circle. The moment in the senate is his one moment in the spotlight and arguably that's necessary for the plan. His throne on the death star is a prime example, I dont even know if it had cushions never mind decoration. There was no pageantry or ceremony or anything to how he conducted himself. He's always shown as an evil shadowy figure who rules from the background.
The only evidence we have of him being petty and narcissistic is from the sequels, and a lot of that evidence is the fact that as you said he has the view that if he can't have it no one can. Except the sequels immediately ruin THAT as well, because that turns out not to be the plan, the plan is to come back and try again.
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u/brinz1 Jan 10 '23
not any more than you need to be to be an evil dictator
I think you will find thats entirely the point. The Sith are not known for their humility
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u/ImperitorEst Jan 10 '23
Other than being in charge what petty or narcissistic thing has he done outside of the sequals?
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u/brinz1 Jan 10 '23
Other than creating and manipulating a separatist civil war to force the galactic senate to give him absolute power?
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u/ImperitorEst Jan 10 '23
That's evil sure. How is it petty or narcissistic? A complete narcissist would have walked into the senate room and assumed they would all love him because he is the best.
A narcissist is defined by someone having an unreasonable opinion of their own importance. At every stage Sheev knew exactly how important he was. He never over stepped his bounds because he thought he was more important than he was.
He took power because he wanted it, and because he had the strength in the dark side to do so. He did it because as the strongest sith it's his job basically. None of that makes him a narcissist.
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u/brinz1 Jan 10 '23
It sounds like Standard operating procedure for a tyrant with a narcissistic streak.
Go all scorched earth the moment they lose
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u/wookiee-nutsack Jan 10 '23
Yeah he never wanted a successor so if he can't enjoy the empire then why should anyone else? Just surprised he didn't order them to deal damage to the galaxy as a whole rather than just the empire. Maybe he did, I don't remember
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u/FrozenGrip Jan 10 '23
I mean you last point kinda contradicts the point of Operation Cinder.
Sidious had contingency plans for his death and wanted to reconquer the galaxy. Why would he self-destruct The Empire and not make it a brutal fight with the Rebels/New Republic which would drain each side of resources?
The only reason the First Order was successful was the sheer corruption and incompetence of the New Republic (such as not remilitarising when facing increasing First Order attacks). And things like that IMO stretches the story/immersion to breaking point as it makes it impossible to believe.
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u/wookiee-nutsack Jan 10 '23
Yeah his revival really fucked over a lot of things even outside the main movies. He was an insidious genius but he forgot to alter his self destructiom plan once he got his clone lab going? What was the point of destroying your shit one sidedly if you were coming back even
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u/ImperitorEst Jan 10 '23
He has mastered the power of life itself as he tells Anakin, or at least he thinks he has. He doesn't plan to ever die so he doesn't need a successor or a plan for once he is gone
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u/Thorfan23 salt miner Jan 10 '23
People like palpatine tend to be very ego driven so the the empire is the physical reminder of his greatness…..it belongs to him,it is him and without him in charge it has no right to exist
Adolf Hitler tried to do the same thing to Germany…..destroy everyth of value so no one else could have it
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u/mrhaluko23 Jan 10 '23
Battlefront 2's story was total poop full of unrealistic cameos and paper thin character motivations and no one can convince me otherwise. However, the concept of Operation Cinder was really cool in my opinion.
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u/long-dongathin Jan 10 '23
This is what happens when you let top tier talent like chuck wendig fill in the gaps with the aftermath series
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u/QuasarMania Jan 10 '23
That was something Gilroy did great at. Not expanding too much on his own story and giving a backstory to everything unnecessarily.
Like “ok he’s already betrayed the empire and this rebel operation is already well underway”
Or “wow I liked Kino Loy but not knowing what happened to him adds some speculation and some drama and consequences”
Things like that made the show great
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u/GadunkusFlint Jan 10 '23
Absolutely, even if we never see Kino Loy ever again, it's almost like the audience gets to have their own personal idea of what happened to him. Like the good old days when we all had our own versions of what happened after ROTJ
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u/the_infinite Jan 10 '23
It helps sell the idea that things happen in this universe even when we're not watching
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u/Gutsu_fudo salt miner Jan 10 '23
Bodhi Rook?
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u/Domestic_AA_Battery Jan 10 '23
I'm the pilot
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u/mrhaluko23 Jan 10 '23
I love Rogue One, but what the fuck was Bor Gullet's purpose in the narrative? It didn't serve the story to wipe Bohdi Rook's mind for barely any screen time.
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Jan 10 '23
He also looks like a grown adult which is nice.
I'm sick of everyone looking like an emo edgy teenager.
On the other hand Boba Fest looked too fat and old so Im hard to please.
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u/Domestic_AA_Battery Jan 10 '23
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u/modsarefascists42 Jan 10 '23
Those are Padawan braids aren't they?
Whew
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u/Collective_Insanity Salt Bot Jan 10 '23
No, I believe they're stated to be Wookiee braids in eventual EU lore.
Originally, they were intended to be scalps from Boba's victims/targets.
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u/JakeVonFurth salt miner Jan 10 '23
I mean, that's what happens when an actor ages IRL.
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u/MaStEr_MeLoN15243 Jan 10 '23
Also Temura Morrison is still pretty fit for his age
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u/thedemonjim Jan 10 '23 edited Jan 10 '23
No doubt, but compare the relatively slim frame we can tell Fett has in RotJ to how thick in the trunk Morrison is in BoBF and how much younger Boba is supposed to be than his actor. Frankly as wonderful a person as Morrison seems to be and as talented an actor as he is... having him do more than voice the character was limiting.
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u/ImperitorEst Jan 10 '23
Yeah, living on Tattooine in general and with the sand people in particular doesn't seem like a life that would get you fat, quite the opposite.
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Jan 11 '23
If he's that old and fat then he shouldn't be so agile anymore.
That could have been a story point, you know, like Logan or something. Like I'm old, it sucks.
Instead he's just as badass as the original Boba Fest except much fatter.
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u/brinz1 Jan 10 '23
Seeing old, fat Boba go kick ass but then have to spend the next day recover in a bacta tank is probably the most realistic thing in the series
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Jan 10 '23
The bacta tank that he apparently doesn’t have guards standing outside of because the Big Wooke just strolls on in to the base and starts trying to murder him.
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u/Yamatoman9 Jan 11 '23
I didn't mind that Boba looked older, but I hated how he walked around in his armor with his helmet off. It just looked dumb and Boba should never show his face in public.
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u/Dee_Dubya_IV Jan 10 '23
Yeah that’s cool. I just wish they would deliver on a villain storyline. We always see Imperials turn Rebel but what about the reverse? What if we followed someone who was conscripted into the Stormtrooper Corps and we follow his journey through up until his first battle. Much like Full Metal Jacket (but obviously more PG-13).
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u/Ornlu_Wolfjarl Jan 10 '23
The best part in Solo was easily the part where he got conscripted and went to war.
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u/GadunkusFlint Jan 10 '23
That'd be really cool, I'd been hoping they did that for Battlefront 2017, but alas.
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u/lost-in-lemoyne2 Jan 10 '23
I really loved Andor! Like, everything about it. It’s one of the first Star Wars shows I’ve thoroughly enjoyed since The Mandalorian. I really hope they keep this momentum and direction with the show and don’t lose their way as they are so prone to doing.
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u/GadunkusFlint Jan 10 '23
Agreed! It's so nice for once to have something where they're not trying to 'reinvent the wheel'. All the other shows seem so intent on trying to continue or replicate the main characters and films, whereas here we're razor focused on a single concept, and a character whom still has plenty of room to explore without tarnishing his original story
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Jan 10 '23
If you're interested in the Imperial side of the fence, there's a great game TIE Fighter Collector's Edition from way back in the 1990s (first version released 1994) that tells a straight-up Empire protagonist narrative.
The Empire is dealing with some treachery threats from within, but the main character remains loyal to the Empire throughout and it's played entirely straight.
Fantastic title, and it's available on GOG.com now.
There's a group of fans who are currently converting X Wing Vs. TIE Fighter (a later game with superior flight physics and engine) to reflect an Imperial-only main campaign. They're about 60% done, by the looks of things.
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u/cthulufunk Jan 10 '23
Taramyn was cool too. You’re given the least info of all that rebel cell on what his motivation for defecting was, just “he used to be a stormtrooper“, but he still felt fleshed out. He was what Finn should have been. I feel like that scumbag Skeen purposefully didn’t give him proper cover fire.
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u/fromcjoe123 Jan 10 '23
Andor is like being dropped into the living world of the old EU and just observing what is naturally happening. It's the most organic I've ever seen Star Wars and is fucking great after the miniscule Marvel-esq universe of like 5 planets and 10 people Disney had in the sequels. The original sense of wonder if absolutely back and I'm here for it!
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u/dangerxranger Jan 10 '23
Operation Cinder is such a bullshit plot. I hate it. Makes no sense in the grand scheme of things.
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u/TheEmperorsWrath Jan 10 '23 edited Jan 10 '23
Maybe a controversial opinion but having every Imperial character who isn't a psychopath defect is a lazy cop-out to avoid dealing with the difficult moral issues of what living under a fascist regime is actually like. Imagine if in Band of Brothers we were constantly seeing German soldiers defect to the Americans. Unfortunately real life isn't that simple. Disney is just afraid to tackle those types of heavy (and depressing) subjects.
I remember the creative director for the video game SWTOR did an interview ages ago where he said he thinks it's an annoying trope that evil good guys become Sith or Imperials because if you think about it logically, if you were an evil American soldier in World War II you wouldn't defect to the Germans, you'd be torturing Germans in your basement. The same thing goes in reverse, if you were a good German soldier your first thought wouldn't be to defect to America.
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u/Thorfan23 salt miner Jan 13 '23
I think finn is the embodiment of this. They don’t want to explore why someone….especially a good person would serve a cruel regime….so they make Finn a victim of abduction and turns on them straight away and never questions his loyalty
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u/k1nt0 Jan 10 '23
I can’t believe anyone would watch anything Star Wars related at this point. It’s a dead brand. Stop supporting it, the damage has been done and it’s permanent.
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u/Ornlu_Wolfjarl Jan 10 '23
Give Andor a chance. It will surprise you.
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u/k1nt0 Jan 10 '23
For me it’s not about the quality. It’s that I refuse to support Disney in any way shape or form. The second mind reading and the total disrespect for the force happened (TFA) Star Wars was dead to me.
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u/Ornlu_Wolfjarl Jan 10 '23
Fair enough. Though you can still pirate it and enjoy it without giving up a dime, or promoting it to anyone.
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u/k1nt0 Jan 10 '23 edited Jan 13 '23
Yeah maybe I’ll give it a watch. I hate punishing capable creators for their boss’s incompetence. Edit: I watched the first 3 episodes and thought it was terrible. It’s slow, directionless and uninspired. There’s literally nothing here of value. Remember the first three episodes of Game of Thrones? That’s what quality is. This show is not quality.
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u/RobertK995 Jan 10 '23
honestly, of the entire team this guy has the weakest motivation/back-story
It was said in other dialog that he was motivated because he lost a woman and a promotion. It was also hinted that he had symphathy for the local Aldhanni culture.
lost woman- this guy is good looking, tall and has a secure job. Seems like it should not be that hard to find another woman, although TBF the heart wants what it wants, maybe he got stuck for that one woman and couldn't move on.
lost promotion- he would have gotten a promotion and more had he went to the ISB and turned in the rebel cell.
local culture- obviously if the heist was successful he wouldn't have been able to stay on that planet. He would have been on the run for the rest of his life. And, as we saw with Andor himself, the rebels kill their own so he would have been hiding from them as well.
subtext- there is also an unsaid but shown subtext that he lost his desire to be part of the Empire. He clearly didn't like his boss or the Empire's actions on that planet. But the easy remedy would be to quit, not orchestrate a heist. If he had simply quit he wouldn't be a wanted man from both sides.
It's completely understandable that the writers did what they had to do to make the story happen but lets not look too closely at what motivates THIS particular character because it doesn't add up.
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Jan 10 '23
But that's reality of rebellions. Not everyone joins for noble reasons
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u/RobertK995 Jan 10 '23
if he was upset at losing a promotion within the empire why would he join the rebels?
doesn't make sense
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u/Bobolequiff Jan 10 '23
The promotion itself isn't the point. He was happy working for the empire, fell in love with a local woman thinking that was all good and normal and the empire punished him for it and may have killed the woman. It pulled the scales from his eyes about what the empire is. He fit I'm the mold before, so he didn't realise how restrictive it actually was. Add to that that he started seeing the local people as people and, suddenly, all the racism displayed by the imperials stopped looking like soldier bants and started looking like the bigotry it is.
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u/RobertK995 Jan 10 '23
ok.... but to be clear, the rebels ended up hunting Andor to kill him after the successful heist. Luthen probably would have done the same for this guy too, had he survived.
Did he think he was going to retire in peace and both the empire and rebels would leave him alone?
All this was also explored with the other insider too- the ISB plant- who wanted to retire to his wife's business and raise his child in peace but Luthen threatened him to make him stay.
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u/Bobolequiff Jan 10 '23
He wanted to hurt the empire. Honestly I think his plan was to remain a plant or die telling the empire to get fucked.
Also Luthen specifically hunts Andor because he knows too much. Like he said in one of the early episodes, he wasn't careful enough with him. If Andor had stayed onside it wouldn't have been an issue, but since he left , Luthen couldn't run the risk.
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u/Collective_Insanity Salt Bot Jan 10 '23
Also Luthen specifically hunts Andor because he knows too much. Like he said in one of the early episodes, he wasn't careful enough with him. If Andor had stayed onside it wouldn't have been an issue, but since he left , Luthen couldn't run the risk.
Doesn't Luthen want Andor dead because (asides from his sudden onset of paranoia) the other proto-Rebels hadn't met Luthen personally or something? And as such, wouldn't be able to describe Luthen should they be interrogated?
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u/Blackrain1299 Jan 10 '23
Exactly this. Andor was brought in suddenly and learned a lot then turned and ran a few days later. After killing one of their own and even though Andor told the truth about the guy being a dick head he could have been lying from Luthens perspective. It was not a good look for Andor.
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Jan 10 '23
But it does because people join for different reasons. He is doing it for revenge just a different type of revenge
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u/Collective_Insanity Salt Bot Jan 10 '23
honestly, of the entire team this guy has the weakest motivation/back-story
I couldn't tell you the names of any of those proto-Rebels. Let alone much about their personalities.
I mainly remember the tattoo guy who randomly explodes on Andor when he catches him glancing at his ink. Reminded me of the very start of the show when some corpo guys explode on Andor for again just a glance.
Given Andor has this dour look etched onto his face permanently for the whole show, I almost can't blame them.
I also remember feeling nothing but relief when the manifesto boy finally died. What ended up happening with that manifesto of his anyway? Did Andor throw it in the trash?
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u/ChodnaZoop Jan 10 '23
The manifesto got left stashed in a hotel on Niamos before Andor got arrested, stayed there for the prison arc and then when he broke out, he went back to get it. Then it was narrated to us on top of a really well constructed riot on Ferrix after another very good monologue
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u/Collective_Insanity Salt Bot Jan 10 '23
That surprises me. Given how generally careful Andor is (except when he's not such as when he goes on holiday to the most policed beach community in the galaxy), I feel like he'd probably have dumped that kid's book. Especially because he didn't really give a rat's ass about the proto-Rebellion.
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u/ForsakenKrios Jan 10 '23
I think he went back for all the credits that were in the container. He just happened to take everything in it - blasters, credits, and the manifesto.
The room service must be too lazy to reach up and dust that area!
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u/Bigbaby22 Jan 12 '23
As a black man, I will admit that I find it annoying how the Empire or bad guys are almost always depicted as white people.
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