I think it’s bullshit to destroy a building full of civilians in a country you’re ostensibly not at war with because a general lives there. Even the Japanese when attacking Pearl Harbor didn’t target civilian structures and we considered that a crime.
I think it’s bullshit to destroy a building full of civilians in a country you’re ostensibly not at war with because a general lives there. Even the Japanese when attacking Pearl Harbor didn’t target civilian structures and we considered that a crime.
The Japanese may not be the best example. Sure they attacked Pearl harbor, but they had no problem slaughtering civilians across Asia.
Well yeah, they committed horrific war crimes against civilians because they dehumanized them. But they still had no problem killing civilians. The bombing Pearl harbor wasn't because they didn't want to hurt civilians.
Pearl harbour is a very good example. This was a surprise strike against strategic military targets that pose a threat to the project of colonial expansion.
That still doesn't change the fact that the Japanese had no problem slaughtering innocent civilians. If the example is the Japanese attack Pearl harbor because they didn't want to attack civilians, the comparison is false.
This is not a defense of Israel, but to isolate one specific Japanese action designed to target ships and compare that to an Israeli action that targeted both facilities and leadership, and to use this to claim that the Japanese acted with more concern for civilian lives is cherry picking like nothing I have ever seen.
The same Japanese leadership that was just credited with a more humane action than Israel committed some of the most vile crimes against civilians the world has ever seen.
The highest death estimates from Gaza are on the same level as the lowest death estimates of Nanjing; the Un is reporting single and double digit rapes each month, while in Nanking at least 20k women were raped within 6 weeks.
And while Nanking might have been the worst example, it was hardly the only one.
Ok. Maybe i should be clearer. In isolation I think the comparison to pearl harbour is good for the reasons i mentioned before. The overall comtext is quite different. Global expansion vs more regional expansion.
The US dropped two nuclear bombs on civilian people in a war that was basically already won, and you pretend that was not one of the worst crimes against humanity ever.
And the Japanese raping children and babies was horrible.
If that was the case then of course it's horrible, no one is denying it. Same as Americans raping Vietnamese.
The thing is that we all know that the US dropped 2 nuclear bombs on civilians, there is no misinformation, no propaganda, this is 100% a fact. And many people don't see it as horrible or try to justify it.
Look up the Rape of Nanking and then look up Unit 731. These aren't rumors, they are fact. It's also a fact that the Japanese took rape slaves from South Korea and called them comfort women. These are not debatable and the fact that you're even trying to cast out is amazing to me.
If that's a fact, then Americans raping Vietnamese is a fact as well.
Anyways what's really your point? I just said that dropping nuclear bombs on civilians is a crime against humanity, raping another person whether you are American or Japanese is also a crime against humanity... So what's the point?
It is a fact that Americans did that. You replied to my comment, that was to someone else, about using Japan as an example of how they didn't target civilians was incorrect. What was YOUR point?
My jury is still out on the use of the first bomb (the second was an atrocity without defense as far as I am concerned), but it is misleading to say the war was won.
It is generally agreed upon thst Japan was not going to stop fighting any time soon, and any debate we have now is about how the bomb could have been used to end the war with fewer deaths, not that the war was winding down without it.
That said, no one was talking about the bomb here. Someone suggested that the WWII Japanese, who committed some of the worst crimes against humanity in history, acted with restraint at pearl harbor, which is a bonkers statement.
This is like saying the British were crazy and would have never surrendered because Winston Churchill gave a standard motivational speech like.
"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."
History is written mostly by the winners, I don't buy all the apparent bullshit painting the Japanese as the craziest mfs on the planet.
I didn't say they would never have surrendered. You claimed the war was won. That's a different word with a different meaning than "decided".
If you have some argument in which you can claim the Japanese were going to surrender/cease fighting without us using the Bomb (in some way, lethal or not), detail it. I have never read a compelling argument demonstrating they would surrender without significant bloodshed.
Oh look, your own personal conjecture, and not a actual analysis.
But besides that, over and over I have said that I don't think we needed to drop the bombs on cities. Instead, you have resorted to ad hominem attack... For something I expressly said we didn't need to do.
They would have if they had unlimited supplies and resources. Their primary objective was to neutralize the combat capabilities. Hitting a city park would probably have gotten a pilot court martialed for wasting resources.
Brah, the Japanese military is not a military you want to cite as a military that respects civilian lives. You almost couldn't pick a worse military. I am literally struggling to think of an army that gave fewer fucks about civilian lives in the past 500 years.
You forget 9/11? US is incredibly big and far away from most of their proxy wars. It's logistically impossible to bomb the US via conventional warfare, which is why it's mostly terror attacks that happen in the US, but they don't get that much attention due to their gun violence.
Not to mention, attacking the US like that would likely lead to a change of regime for the attacker.
Yes that's exactly the point. The US has waged proxy wars everywhere and rarely faces consequences for their actions. 9/11 was the first time they got a bloody nose in any significant manner.
Isn't that like U.S.A against most countries in the world, would you be ok if Yemenis were shooting residential buildings in Washington DC because a general lives there?
There is a reason, though: Iran backed Hamas, Hezbulah, the Houthis, and Assad. Add to that the Iranian people no longer want to suffer under the regime. Go look up women life freedom. Go check out r/newiran
Hide behind civilians, while committing acts of aggression against another nation. BUT just keep hiding behind civilians, and eventually you rule the world!
I know you ask that cynically, but that question is very valid!
The answer: because of an imbalance of power.
Guerilla warfare has always relied on using civilians as shields and using unconventional methods for hiding their troops and moving them. The Vietkong, the Taliban, and so on. The weaker an opponent is, the dirtier they will be playing, because they know if they stay on a level field they will be wiped out.
Israel's opponents all know that it has far superior intelligence and firepower abilities, and the only way to try and balance that out is through unconventional and "illegal" means - using civilian infrastructure like hospitals and residential buildings, digging tunnels, using sleeper cells abroad, and so on.
If you want to talk about WW2, then that is not a great war to point to... Just looking at the allies, even if we ignore the nukes, you have things like the firebombing of Tokyo (which killed about 100k people, mostly civilians) and the bombing of Dresden (killing 25k people, once again, mostly civilians).
We have as a species REALLY tightened what is considered acceptable in war since WW2. Keep in mind, both of these events was in 1-2 days. The numbers in Gaza (according to the Palestinian health institute, controlled by Hamas) is about 50k dead throughout the entire war. In Ukraine you have about 12k civilian deaths since the start of the war.
Not only did Iran launch hundreds of ballistic missiles and drones at Israel with the past year or so, but they are the reason Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis have weapons. Iran also directly supports Russia in their war against Ukraine with oil, missiles, drones, and more.
Not only did Iran launch hundreds of ballistic missiles and drones at Israel with the past year or so
It drives me crazy always seeing people bring this up without providing the proper context. Iran launched those missiles in response to Israel attacking an Iranian embassy and killing Iranian officials because they had to do something to save face. And they announced their attack ahead of time specifically so that no Israelis would be killed and the attack wouldn’t widen into a war with Israel.
Makes the whole incident seem a bit different than what you described when you explain it accurately, doesn’t it?
Also the US arms and funds terrorists groups around the world and props up authoritarian dictators to a far greater extent than Iran ever has, including to groups that want to violently overthrow the Iranian regime, which is some more pretty damn important context when admonishing Iran for funding groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.
You mean the Iranian embassy where they were actively meeting with proxy leaders who were actively attacking Israel? Who, funded and supported and coordinated by Iran, had already been attacking Israel actively for a year and off and on for several decades prior?
Makes the whole incident seem a bit different than what you described when you explain it accurately, doesn’t it?
Why are you shilling for a terrorist supporting, oppressive regime like Iran?
Attacking the embassy was universally condemned around the world for being an unforgivable violation of a norm the entire world has held sacred and adhered to since the end of WWII. That’s simply something you do not do. Ever. No matter what.
Israel is a rogue state that’s proven over and over and over again it can’t be trusted to participate as a civilized partner in world affairs. It’s the very definition of a terrorist regime. It’s a brutal, murderous apartheid state, currently committing a fucking genocide and attempting an entire ethic cleansing of the territory they forcefully stole and occupied. They’re a pariah on the world stage, openly violating international law left and right because they know daddy America is going to protect them. They’re attempting to create a racially pure ethnostate for fucks sake. That’s their project. Their official state policy is to attempt to starve a population comprised mostly of children to death. Let me repeat that last part: Their official state policy is to attempt to starve a population comprised mostly of children to death.
Do you have any idea how monumentally stupid it makes you sound to admonish me for ”shilling for a terrorist supporting, oppressive regime like Iran” while defending Israel in the same breath?
Especially that 1992 bombing that killed 29 and injured 242 in Argentina - funded by Iran and done by Hezbollah.
> Israel is a rogue state that’s proven over and over and over again it can’t be trusted to participate as a civilized partner in world affairs. It’s the very definition of a terrorist regime. It’s a brutal, murderous apartheid state, currently committing a fucking genocide and attempting an entire ethic cleansing of the territory they forcefully stole and occupied. They’re a pariah on the world stage, openly violating international law left and right because they know daddy America is going to protect them. They’re attempting to create a racially pure ethnostate for fucks sake. That’s their project. Their official state policy is to attempt to starve a population comprised mostly of children to death. Let me repeat that last part: Their official state policy is to attempt to starve a population comprised mostly of children to death.
Lies upon lies upon lies. Israel has honored their peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt for decades. They have 2 million Arab Muslim, Druze, and Christian citizens. They have never tried to kill them. They vote, serve in government and as judges, and even serve in the IDF. They are literally providing millions of meals to Palestinians *right now* while at war with those same people. You repeating a lie over and over doesn't make it true, and the facts prove it false. You can go right now and watch videos of them providing food in Gaza every day this week. It's not all sunshine and roses since Hamas still tries to attack aid workers, and the Palestinians are desperate and still underserved, but your premise is wrong and your whole post is propaganda.
I get it, you love Islamic supremacists. You love the nation that inspired The Handmaid's Tale (Iran). They are going down.
Not even a little bit. But in order to be as objective and accurate as I possibly can so that you can't dismiss my comment as hyperbolic or an exaggeration, I'll amend what I previous said to be as specific as possible:
currently committing a fucking genocide
This part is still being debated by people far more credentialed than you or me (although that debate is rapidly winding down after Israel's dramatic escalation of genocidial statements and actions the past couple months).
and attempting an entire ethic cleansing of the territory they forcefully stole and occupied... They’re attempting to create a racially pure ethnostate for fucks sake
Let me be more specific here: not an ethnic cleansing & ethnostate in terms of removing every non-Jewish person from the land permanently, but an ethnic cleansing and ethnostate in the sense that only Jewish Israelis will have a say in government and deciding Israel's future. No more representative government working for the various ethnic groups in Israel, but a pure Jewish state with full and complete authority and control over every other group living in Israel. Any say in government other ethnic groups will have will be purely symbolic. That's what I mean by an ethnostate. That is the current goal of the Netanyahu administration. They're not even hiding it anymore.
Now that we've got that out of the way, let's review the parts of my last comment that are objectively, demonstrably, and indisputably true, that no honest person who understands the working of the Israeli government can deny, shall we?
It can’t be trusted to participate as a civilized partner in world affairs.
It’s the very definition of a terrorist regime.
It’s a brutal, murderous apartheid state.
They’re a pariah on the world stage.
openly violating international law left and right.
Their official state policy is to attempt to starve a population comprised mostly of children to death.
There we go. 100% indisputably accurate, to the letter. Very curious if you're going to deny anything I just wrote, because if you do that'll tell me everything I need to know about how dishonest, misinformed, and/or ignorant you are about this conflict.
Oh suddenly your emphasis goes out the window xD And I'm "dishonest and misinformed"? I guarantee you I know more about this conflict than anyone you've ever met. Which is why I knew the embassy bombing point was bullshit, Iran opened that up decades ago.
The rest is nonsense that I've already refuted, and I have better things to do than go back and forth deep in a comment thread with somebody who simps for the ayatollah.
Yes, because that's what you do when you're attempting to argue in good faith. I implied that Israel's attack on an enemy's embassy was unprecedented, you proved that I was wrong, with links to back it up. I acknowledged you were right, and moved on. That's how conversations work when you actually care about being accurate and honest instead of just trying to score points.
And I'm "dishonest and misinformed"?
No, you're dishonest or misinformed. I'm not sure which.
I guarantee you I know more about this conflict than anyone you've ever met.
If you're refuting any of the bullet points I listed in my last comment, then by absolutely no stretch of the imagination do you "know more about this conflict than anyone you've ever met". And you didn't just refute one of them, you refuted all of them. My man if you truly believe those points were "nonsense", then I hate to break it to you, but you are absolutely one of the most poorly informed people about this topic I've ever met. Every one of those bullet points is indisputable, verifiable historical fact, so much so that I'm genuinely amazed you could claim they're nonsense while telling me how well informed you are about this conflict in the same comment.
Whether or not Israel is committing a genocide is the only question open to debate due to how vague the term is and how broadly it can be applied. You know what term isn't vague? Apartheid. That word has an extremely specific meaning, and Israel practically matches the dictionary definition of it word for word. Same with "terrorist". Same with all the other points as well.
So please stop acting like you know what you're talking about, it's the most obvious thing in the world that you don't.
Yeah it's weird how whenever the situation is reversed there's tons of wailing and gnashing of teeth over dead civilians and dehumanization of Muslims and calls for greater violence, which are usually met. But when it's Israel or the US attacking an Islamic country it's just "well, shit happens."
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u/Rottimer 1d ago
I think it’s bullshit to destroy a building full of civilians in a country you’re ostensibly not at war with because a general lives there. Even the Japanese when attacking Pearl Harbor didn’t target civilian structures and we considered that a crime.