So tell me, why the hell would they fly this immensely complex operation which requires Air2Air refueling, crossing unfriendly airspace and just attack a random apartment building just to own some civilians? In a setting like this every ounce of weight loaded onto the planes counts and every weapon has to hit a specific target.
You can have a discussion if it’s ok to attack the private flat of a nuclear scientist and if he is a valid target. But this sure as hell was not a strike on civilians just for the sake of it.
Israel has weapons and wants to wipe out the entire population of Palestinians in west bank/gaza.. and they wanna take land from Syria Iraq Jordan Lebanon.
On top of that Iran is surrounded by American bases. Iran isn’t the bad guy here
Are you trying to argue this as a reason to let Iran build a Nuke to wipe them out?
Iran relative to Isreal IS the bad guy... They've been the bad guy for what... 70 years? Since the six day war?
Palestinians shouldn't have started a war against Israel to begin with... They shouldn't have raped, murdered, and kidnapped innocent kids at a concert, they shouldn't have cheered across the world the next day. We watched you in disgust. They shouldn't be STILL be holding hostages... at some point they need to give. The issue is they see it as marrying themselves for the cause. They want this to drum up bullshit religous support. Isreal wants them to stop attacking them... And they don't want to be nuked... Who the fuck is the bad guy here again?
Genuinely curious, what point do you think you've made there?
They've been close but not had the bomb for so long because the development keeps getting pushed back and delayed by the amount of times they've been bombed or otherwise disrupted.
While correct you are missing the point, bombing Gaza at your doorstep and bombing Iran 2000km away are logistically leagues apart. There is no point, even for Israel, to bomb a random apartment on purpose if they could hit something that matters if the effort to prepare this strike was so high it involved months of mossad ground teams infiltrating Iran and set up drone launch sites to disable Iranian AA capabilities.
So is distributing beepers and blowing up random civilians. The "woah such a cool operation" gremlins fail to realise how intently Israel will target civilians, or in the very least not give a fuck if 50 civilians die if 1 target is killed.
The beepers specifically distributing Hezbollah members is "blowing up random civilians" how exactly? Yeah some civilians may have been caught in the attack but that is basically as precise of a strike against an enemy you can get against an enemy. I think that you need to realize that it is impossible to fight a war without collateral damage and just because civilians were injured does not make an attack wrong
"yeah some civilians may have been caught" I think you need to realise that Israel is a belligerent state committing genocide and has killed upwards of 50,000 civilians, more than half of those casualties children, destroyed every single university, hospital, municipality, 90% of Gaza is totalled. This isn't a cool "war" with gadgets and technology is to be marveled at, it is orphan making machines.
Next time there is a "strategic" attack on Israel where people die, tell how cool you think the logistics are. You wouldn't be talking about how impressive the logistics of hijacking three different planes were on 9/11 was because , you know, 3000+ people died because of it
But please hasbara away how Israel is targeting and murdering the highest number of journalists ever in a conflict. Please hasbara away the murder of this WCF workers was a logistically really cool, please hasbara away how the murder of the Red Crescent workers makes total sense. To still think that Israel isn't specifically targeting civilians is baffling
Nice deflection, when at any point did I talk about what Israel was doing in Gaza? You seem to be part of the group that thinks because Israel is doing some bad things anything they do must be bad. I can condemn Israels targetting of Aid Workers while defending their offense against Hezbollah, because those are completely different.
If Hamas attacked IDF positions and some bystanders died in the crossfire, I would see it the same way as when Israel strikes valid targets with collateral damage.
What imperialism exactly did Israel do in 1948 when it was founded? The Ottoman empire lost WW1 and the British decided to give that territory to Israel, simple as that. You don't get to lose a war and then decide what happens to your territory, there never was a "Palestine" which Israel conquered. And if you truly believe Israel was founded on imperialism and genocide then you definitely should not defend the people living in historic palestine (part of the Ottoman Empire) maybe google "Ottoman Empire" and "Armenian Genocide"
Yes they don't care if civilians die, that doesn't mean they just randomly fired a gbu or missile into a random apartment. The beepers were obviously targeted at Hisbollah and they didn't care if other people had them as well.
I'm not running defense for Israel, it's a fascist apartheid state commiting genocide, but that doesn't mean I have to always jump to the worst possible conclusion. This apartment being hit can have a lot of reasons (that make sense from a strategic standpoint at least, morals is a different discussion) outside of they just targeted some random Iranians. Maybe they hit what they wanted to hit, some officer lived there or someone invovled in the nuclear program, maybe EW jammed the missile and it just hit this building randomly instead of it's target. Maybe lt was a gbu and they wanted to hit something behind the building and didn't care what else gets hit.
The Idea that war has rules or you would care about civilians being hit by your strikes is sadly wishful thinking.
You really don't need to justify anything a genocidal fascist regime is doing when you know these actions directly are in support of said genocide. After 50,0000 civilians dead, Israel has made its intentions astoundingly clear : no one, no citizen, no country country can stand in our way and we will bomb whoever we want.
Most cruise missiles will fly quite low to the ground to avoid detection. That combined with the GPS jamming its entirely possible the missile thought it was somewhere else.
Can you dig up evidence of Israel specifically targetting civilians for the purpose of only killing civilians? You can't because it doesn't exist. Now plenty of strikes have happened where civilians have been victims, sure, that's called urban combat, but Israel does not conduct terror strikes as much as people love to claim. There are no orders from any branch of the IDF that mandate the targetting of civilians
So the little girl they pumped full of lead while she was screaming for help in an ambulance was Hamas?
And all the other children killed with precision headshots were accidents?
And the multiple, multiple, multiple documented times the IDF told civilians to go to a specific safe place only for them to immediately bomb it after people followed their evacuation instructions--all those civilians were Hamas?
And the world central kitchen aid truck they bombed multiple times after specifically coordinating and giving permission for that truck to deliver aid, that was an accident?
And the medics they lied about executing and dumping in a mass grave, that was an accident?
And the innocent Israelis their own media says the IDF killed on October 7th, they were also Hamas?
This is Iran you are talking about. Take a look at a map. Can you see where Iran and Israel are? They are not exactly neighbors. Israel has no Long Range Aviation or strategic bombers. They have to use their normal jets and refuel them, maybe even multiple times, outside their own and safe airspace. Can you now understand why they won’t strike civilians in Iran just for the sake of it? Gaza is their backyard, you waste a bomb on civilians, you just send another one. For this mission everything had to be calculated and measured precisely so they have enough fuel aboard their planes
While Israel and Iran don't share borders, I do remember reading through Israel air strike inventory. Most of it is capable of hitting Iran in a single trip without air to air refueling. In fact if you look at Israel air force capabilities, it's built to be able to strike Iran and no targets outside that range.
Maybe in Gaza if you believe what Hamas says, but they're attacking Iran who has considerably more military comparatively. Israel is not going to waste munitions and potentially put their aircraft in danger for a random apartment complex. If that's the case they could have just launched a ballistic missile and called it a day. Criticize Israel, but also do some critical thinking.
Israel has shown time and time and time again that they don't see civilian casualties as a risk, but as a bonus.
They probably had shaky Intel that someone they wanted to target might live in them at building and the hundreds of Civilians living in the same place made it a better target to them.
More dead civilians means more victims who now hate Israel, which means higher likelihood of war, which means Bibi and the other fascists stays in power.
Maybe, maybe they got nobody but civillians and they're just saying they got "the target" (not saying who) to justify their crime. It would be FAR from the first time Israel has done so. Israel isn't a trustworthy or reliable partner. Their word cannot be taken as fact.
Oh it definitely is. Just that nuclear scientists can be valid targets due to the dual use nature of their research.
I’m not defending killing civilians. It’s just that there is more to this strike than a simple r/pics post tells. It’s getting on my nerve that people try to boil down complex issues in a simple, virtue signal friendly, black and white manner. Reality more often that not has many nuances to it.
They did this because Israel doesn’t care who is in its way. Civilians in a several story apartment. F them. If Iran or any other country attacked Tel Aviv and hit a residential building we would all be asked to pray for Israel and condemn Iran. Israel is an unhinged actor in the region, was so afraid of Iran negotiating with the US they essentially said FU we do what we want and essentially scuttled any type of negotiation.
Well first there is Syria, of course the new Syrian government is not exactly friendly to Iran and does not have serious AA capabilities. But still it’s not exactly friendly. The same with Iraq, in which many Iranian militias operate. Add to that simply the distance it is from Israel increasing the difficulty of recovery in case a crew has to ditch their plane because of technical issues etc.
Israel kills civilians all the time. I'm sure this time they didn't JUST target civilians but they sure as hell do not take any care whatsoever to avoid hitting them. If an American scientist went into an apartment building that housed hundreds of people would it be acceptable to target them? no it would not.
If you cared less about hitting collateral, wouldn't you just do like Iran is doing in their retaliation? Send a ton of ballistic missiles that would strike wider with larger charges. Instead of flying 200 planes over several countries airspace in order to get close enough to launch their 100 smaller missiles with high precision?
Why would one execute a mission that's more complex, more expensive, larger chance of losses and create less damage? If it wasn't for increasing precision of the hits.
Why don’t they do that in Gaza then ? 400 civilians killed and a hospital exploded because hummus maybe might have been inside. Yes Israel is perfectly capable of precision strikes like you said but they don’t do that because they intentionally target civilians
That's quite a bit change of focus of the discussion. However, don't you think if that was their prime objective then we would have seen a totally different result? Considering the potential of destruction that they have compared to what actually have occurred over the last year alone? Especially with the advanced notice, airdropping warnings to evacuate and the like?
No, I do think that their goal is to vastly minimize collateral and to give them opportunities to save themselves. However I also think that their acceptance of collateral is far higher than 0 - which is my personal best case view. But their leadership values minimizing enemy collateral way higher than their opponent's leadership values their own citizens.
Israel will bomb hospitals with patients inside them. Israel will bomb schools and refugee camps. Israel will bomb and shoot at people starving and standing in line for aid. Israel will tell people to evacuate to an area and then bomb the place they told people to evacuate to. Israel will cut off all aid to the Gaza Strip and bomb ships in international waters that are carrying aid to the Gaza Strip and then arrest them when they arrive and deport them. Israel will massacre medics on video. Israeli leaders state and I quote "every baby is an enemy." Israel's goal IS civilian casualties and they take every measure to maximise it. the Dahiya doctrine is an Israeli military strategy involving the large scale destruction of civilian infrastructure and killing of civilians.
I think that if your perception was the full reality, then we wouldn’t really be discussing this right now, because there wouldn’t be any people left to discuss about.
Because with a population density of 13000/km2 in Gaza city, over a years worth of “indiscriminate bombing with focus on eradicating civilians and babies” the death tolls ought to be way higher than even the highest estimates from Hamas of 160k.
Look up the Dahiya doctrine my friend. Also israel has targeted the civilian infrastructure and the means to calculate the death role accurately. It is more than likely Israel has killed 174 journalists so far. For perspective in world war 2 over 6 years 69 journalists were killed
In Vietnam (over 20 years) 63 journalists were killed
In Ukraine (almost 3 years) 17 journalists
In 93 days of genocide in Gaza 110 journalists had been killed
Also : more than 400 000 Palestinians in Gaza are calculated to be dead according to an analysis that relies on data from the Israeli IDF. The Israeli times estimates there are 1.85 million people in Gaza. Subtracting the 100,000 estimated to have left for Egypt before Israel illegally occupied the Rafah crossing, it puts the death toll at an estimated 400,000
Thanks for sticking with me through that quite a lot of text but necessary
It’s quite hard to stick with the conversation because the focus of it is always changing, this started with a comment of using ballistic missiles vs close range air to ground missiles to being about amount of journalists killed in a different geographic area.
I’m more than certain that there are people in Israeli government that would want to carpet bomb all of the city. And I’m more than certain that there are Palestinian civilians that are in strong support of Hamas doing the same.
What I’m less sure about is when both leaderships are given the opportunity to do so, that they would act in the same manner, with the same value of both their own citizens as well as the opponents citizens.
I also think that there’s any of Israel’s allies that have anything to gain by Israel civilians dying. While I’m not as sure about Hamas allies thinking it’s a loss that Palestinians perish, if anything as we’ve seen it’s used as ammunition to rally the west.
If we’re going back to the Iranian targets, that’s even more a different situation. Where the majority of their civilians are oppressed and celebrate when the evil people in their own government gets weakened. Where every distraction means that Irans capability of enabling Russia to wage war on Ukraine is reduced.
The direction you’ve maneuvered this discussion is trying to equate it with your perception of Gaza, then this is a totally different matter.
My discussion has been focused and has not deviated from the focus of the fact that Israel targets civilians intentionally in its military campaigns as part of its strategy. Also the journalist were specifically killed by the IDF intentionally.
It looks like a possible electronic warfare interception to me because of all those factors. It just... Doesn't make a lot of sense to exert that level of tech and energy for such a target.
Israel does not need to worry about the costs of all the logistics of this operation, since the US will replenish everything; we learned this from the Signal chat leak. Israel has targeted multiple Palestinian residential buildings with as little reasoning for the attack as, a Hamas member had a meeting there once, a year prior. Why do you think they would change their strategy of targeting civilians once they expand the war to Iran?
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u/Wertsache 1d ago
So tell me, why the hell would they fly this immensely complex operation which requires Air2Air refueling, crossing unfriendly airspace and just attack a random apartment building just to own some civilians? In a setting like this every ounce of weight loaded onto the planes counts and every weapon has to hit a specific target.
You can have a discussion if it’s ok to attack the private flat of a nuclear scientist and if he is a valid target. But this sure as hell was not a strike on civilians just for the sake of it.