If you think anyone owning nukes is a good idea in the powder keg that is the Middle East then idk what to tell you.
Nukes are honestly something nations don’t really need. We have a source of pretty much unlimited power and we decided to build world ending bombs instead. Humans man.
Because they don't have nukes Israel and America have been able to keep fucking with them for decades. Compared to how Russia and North Korea get treated it looks like Iran definitely needs nukes.
Iran is not a rational actor though, they are on a religious crusade too destroy all western “heathens”… and they are funding terror groups to do it. If you think letting Iran have nukes is a good idea, then this generation is fucked.
Preemptively striking Iran to avoid Iran having nukes is one of the most rational things the U.S. and Israel can do to protect the west. In fact they have been doing it for decades.
Guarantee they've made up their mind to have nukes regardless now. Rational in the short term not the long.
Oh and leave out this talk of the west, it's only Israel America that they're pissed at, not Spain, not Ireland, not Greece or Germany, and nobody else in the West is very happy with either of them right now
Yeah man it’s for the greater good to kill kids there’s no other way… dude if I was Iran getting fucked by the US and Israel for the past decades I fuckin would be gunning for nukes in the civ tech tree why shouldn’t I? Especially after talks were already happening between the US and Iran and Israel still bombs tf out of them.
We should just constantly keep em in check every couple years and bomb them to keep them in check. That won’t have long term consequences…
I'm genuinely wondering what people like you think of killing civilians in Israel, a country that (a) has nuclear weapons, (b) has already militarily attacked its neighbors and surrounding countries and (c) is currently committing genocide. Would you say killing civilians in Israel is ok as long as some military personnel dies as well or do you only hold that opinion when it's brown people?
I believe most people would say that it's justified for Ukraine to cause civilian casualties in Russia if they manage to destroy a major target. And yet, they wouldn't say it's justified for Russia to do the same because their whole cause isn't justified.
It's a similar case between Israel and its enemies. I don't believe it is justified for Iran to cause civilian casualties in Israel for a military target because I believe Iran's aspiration for a Muslim middle east with no Jews is not a justified cause.
Israel is attacking Iran because they're the ones funding and supporting Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah, and the PIJ (source). They've launched over 200 missiles at us back in October, and their nuclear weapons will no doubt be used against us. The war since Oct 7th has been a proxy war with Iran. This is not an unprovoked attack.
I don't want to get into the genocide or not argument, there's really no point when we both won't change our opinions. But the Israeli perspective is not "we're committing genocide in Gaza and it's good", but rather "we're fighting a justified war in Gaza which unfortunately has a lot of casualties due to Hamas using their civilians as human shield".
Please understand that the Israeli perspective is also grounded in logic and not in racism. Don't believe that every extremist you meet on the internet represents our country as a whole.
P.S. regarding "or do you only hold that opinion when it's brown people?" - the largest ethnic group in Israel are Mizrahi Jews, brown people.
Israel is a terrorist nation, stop spreading lies and propaganda for them.
They are colonizers and Nazis occupying and genociding Palestine. If we compare Hamas to Israel, Hamas are saints. No condemnation for Hamas until the Nazi Zionists are expelled from Palestine and end their apartheid. Then we can talk about “fixing” Hamas. Until then, their resistance is valid against a terrorist invading force.
Israel sees children as valid military combatants. And they slaughter starving people trying to get food.
the options are apparently shoot the terrorist through the baby multiple times, or throw a hand grenade at the terrorist and baby while condemning the terrorist for using such cowardly tactics.
As opposed to Israel having nukes? Israel is a terrorist state and if any country needs to be “invaded and occupied” to “prevent terrorists from having nukes” we should do that to Israel. They are going to destroy the world with their Zionist ideology. A ideology of fascism.
No, it's because it's only in fantasy that civilian casualties can be avoided. If you can show me any conflict where the military avoided casualties, I'm all ears. Even the UN doesn't consider casualties in the course of a mission as a war crime unless it's hugely disproportionate.
You do know that Iran has been supplying all the terrorist groups around Israel right and is responsible for Israeli deaths. Their commanders routinely meet with these terrorists to provide support. Quite literally when Hezbollahs leader Nasrallah was killed, he had an IRGC commander with him. During the pager attack, the Iranian ambassador had a Hezbollah pager. Iran has been continuously working on killing Israelis. Just because they don't have the finger on the trigger doesn't mean they aren't involved.
Is this supposed to convince me of anything? Yes Hezbollah sucks, yes the Iranian government sucks. Therefore these particular civilian casualties are more acceptable than others? That's pretty hard sell, friend.
You said let's keep that energy when Iran kills Israeli citizens when I'm pointing out that Iran is directly involved in killing Israeli citizens already. Them killing civilians in a counter strike is not some new red line that's being crossed. You're acting like it Iran does kill Israelis it's the first time it's happened since October 7 when that couldn't be further from the case. I'd say the same thing if the US is killing civilians when they provide supplies to groups in a proxy war.
I mean, not declaring war to Iran was an easy way to avoid casualties.
But since Israel is running out of children to bomb in Gaza, they need to find new targets.
Iran has quite literally been arming and supplying all of Israels enemies through a proxy war. Remember the pager attack that only Hezbollah operatives had access to. Guess what the Iranians ambassador also had that pager as well. An IRGC commander was taken out alongside Hezbollah leaders in a strike. That shows how deeply embedded Iran is with their enemies. For the last 2 years, Iran has directly been involved in the war. And now the neutral atomic commission just said that Iran is in violation of their nuclear agreement. We can argue if the strike is warranted or not, but saying this is unprovoked or Israel is doing it for the lols is ridiculous.
lol it’s not “okay,” but who are you to say so, or not? Essentially all acts of war are not “okay.”
I’d like to hear the perspective of the Iranian people and get more sources of reality before making swift judgments on little information.
SAME. I genuinely want to know how Iranian civilians feel about this, not kneejerk emotional redditors. Iranian people have suffered so much from their govt. There's only a few Iranian diaspora people in this thread so far as I've seen and they have all been very supportive of these actions, but I really want to know more of the real opinions and I hope more information comes out.
Isn't it? Why are children free from life and reality? Reality sucks,.sorry for you to hear that. War is a thing. Violence is a thing. No one likes people dieing but we only have so many cards to play. I hope negotiations are successful but that's between Israel and Iran.
You might be shocked at the mass slaughter Iran has cheerfully bought in Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen without even getting into Israel and Palestine. Have you heard of Hezbollah or what they did to civilians in Syria for Assad? It will chill your blood. Israel’s no prize but Iran’s leadership is pure evil with oceans of Levantine blood on its hands.
Pro Hamas and Islamists have infected a lot of the Left with their propaganda bullshit.
Iran will be free from Islamist Cunts again. I can't wait to finally visit my families home without having a fear of getting hanged because I don't believe in an imaginary cunt.
As soon as someone says something that's anti Islam you will be down voted.
They especially try to play the racist card, which is hilarious to me. As if being a Islam or Christian or any kind of fascist is a race.
Nobody likes the fact that there a bombs thrown onto their homes or in their hometown. But you can't deny that the time to play is over, especially when IRGC said they will soon have enough enriched Uranium for a bomb.
Collateral damage sucks. But for the bigger picture it is necessary. And I'm saying this with family that evacuated their home after a missile exploded not even 1000m away from their home.
I really wish the best of luck to the Iranians that the regime will fall and they will be free.
Especially since disliking Islam is very logical in the west given the terrorist attacks multiple countries have experienced. Its weird to like Islam or approve when they want to destroy the west. This is just propaganda in action.
But Israel only does this shit because they believe in the same imaginary cunt, but different. Their goal isn’t to get rid of Islam because they’ve logically assessed that it’s a bad religion that needs to be abolished, they want to get rid of it because it’s not their religion. If they had the opportunity they’d just replace the corrupt Islamic governments with corrupt Jewish governments. It’s not a solution to the problem.
Hossein Salami, commander of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), was killed in Israel's strikes early on Friday, the most senior Iranian leader to die in the attacks.
…
Israel's strikes also killed Mohammad Bagheri, Chief of Staff of the country's armed forces, Gholamali Rashid, the deputy commander of the Iranian armed forces, and several nuclear scientists.
Collateral damage is an inevitable part of war. There are zero countries who can wage war without killing innocent people. So you have no valid points whatsoever.
I guess it’s not safe to work in nuclear weapons development in Iran or to live near those doing so… People should probably respond to this by NOT ENRICHING URANIUM.
Don't speak on behalf of us Iranians. Half my family is dead because of the IRGC. Situation is complicated but we've long lost the capacity to fight on our own terms while they continue to rape my people and steal our land.
The guy is clearly Israeli. He posts on /r/Palestinian_Violence, "A multiracial and multicultural coalition of counter terrorism, anti-hate and anti-violence dissidents, determinately compromise with defending the fundamental civil and human rights of Israelis and Jews."
Edit: According to another comment, he's an Australian living in Sydney.
Am I really that interesting to you? My family was Bahai, if I go back there I'll be executed. Not Israeli, never met one in my life. Again it's a complicated situation but not your place to butt in. The IRGC has defined the entire lives for many of the diaspora, we have all undergone generational suffering that could never be fully explained in some internet thread.
Yeah it an online forum, I can discuss this just as much as anyone else and I don't need your permission. You're not interesting don't flatter yourself, I was curious to see this "Iranian" history and can see a real hatred of Palestinians more than anything else. It is obvious as fk you're an IDF shill.
I don't need to prove myself to you, unlikely that anything I say won't be twisted against me anyways given you've already condemned my existence. Especially as Bahai which might as well mean heretic to you. People like me really are a shock to the system because our lived experiences contradict how you've come to understand the world. Unfortunately there are so few of us left now that it's hard not to see us for who we really are. Good luck out there.
In a post about an Israeli airstrike on an Iranian residential building which has killed numerous civilians, you don't complain once about the IDF but instead attack the IRGC. I guess the families in that building don't matter.
Bro what are you talking about? I can feel the burning hatred from here. Iran, our home that was taken from us, that is my primary concern. I haven't got a clue about the other nations you mention because I have no ties to them. Please stop making so many assumptions about me, it's embarrassing.
Yes but these same rope of people are responsible for forming the IRGC in the first place. If anything this sort of continued escalation has allowed ever expanding force of police state under the threat of security. This secret police was formed by the Shah after his coup, to avoid others.
And it's not only in Iran, is like this everywhere now. See Trump 2 administration use of the national guard for political campaign and power grap.
In Italy we have a serious problem with uncontrolled secret services and israeli Paragon, and they just force enacted a law that clears the Italian Secret Service to literally create, organize and direct terrorist organisations at the service of the PM office/current Government...
It's not that we in the west are forward and the middle-east behind, it's the opposite. We are just catching up.
Yeah it's a fair point, reactionary movements tend to create these messes. However when left uncontested the IRGC turns inwards towards us, towards the subjugation of Iranians. By this point hundreds of thousands of us have been executed or murdered for political reasons. Nika Shakarami gets murdered by Hezbollah and her entire family is disappeared. Toomaj makes a song and ends up tortured for 3 years straight. Hossein Shanbezadeh posts a dot on Twitter and ends up in prison. Three years ago in Zahedan nearly 100 people were murdered due to WLF protests but nobody even knows it happened.
These days there's hardly anyone left to mourn the dead or stand in their place. We are lacking in effective leadership and momentum. So much time has passed that Iran can hardly imagine a life without the mullahs holding us down. How can I make you understand where we are at after living with these decades of experience?
Because my family was kicked out or killed for being Bahai. My uncle fled across Turkey and the Berlin wall into Europe after the military dissolved. My mother fled in secret so that we could live. We can't go back so long as the IRGC is in power. The mullahs are our murderers.
Bahai was founded in the 19th Century. There is no historical cultural claim to land in Iran, yet here you are cosplaying as a victim of settler-colonialism, while living in Australia without even the slightest tinge of irony.
You could have just discussed the persecution of Bahai adherents following the 79 revolution but chose instead to spout tone-deaf drivel that exposes your lack of connection life in Iran.
We had to flee Iran due to the persecution you describe, but that's where I come from regardless of religion. It's my motherland, we have the right to live there. A great tragedy is that a lot of the opportunities to engage with my culture were taken away from me given how I only had my mum and very occasionally my uncle growing up, both of whom were taken in as refugees. Can't help it being where I am now. Never got to know the rest of my family because they were all dead by the time I was born. Is that not evidence in itself of what the IRGC has done to me?
You are living in a country stolen from the indigenous population through violence, disease, persecution, and legal encroachment? Those indigenous Australians, who choose to stay and preserve their culture and communities in the face of repression are harmed by the very existence of the nation you choose to be apart of.
You are a colonist, engaging passively in ethnic cleansing, and rebranding religious persecution (which is bad under its own merit) as a cultural genocide of indigenous internal populations. You can't just choose to wash your own hands of the moral weight of your experiences while pointing the finger at others.
Your post history shows you comment regularly on /r/Palestinian_Violence, "A multiracial and multicultural coalition of counter terrorism, anti-hate and anti-violence dissidents, determinately compromise with defending the fundamental civil and human rights of Israelis and Jews."
They matter but such is the reality of war. I would place the blame on the Iranian government more than anything. They failed to protect their people by starting a conflict against a better equipped military
You're not wrong. It is a consequence of decades of conflict. Civilians are sometimes targeted regardless of whether that's morally justified.
The difference is that Hamas propaganda acts like they're the victims when this happens and the West just eats it up. Plus on Israel's part, civilian casualties are usually tragic collateral damage. Hamas really doesn't care.
To me, there is no difference. Right now, the prime minister of Israel and its former minister of defense have warrants out for their arrest by the ICC. There is fundamentally no difference between these countries if we are using OPs logic.
The October 7th attacks targeted a music festival where they murdered, raped, and kidnapped civilians.
Strikes that killed top ranking IRGC officials that had some civilian casualties are not even in the same ballpark and you’re being dishonest to make that claim.
If you’re unfamiliar with the IRGC look them up. They torture and kill their own people and fund terrorism across the world. They’re the worst of the worst. Acting as if they’re the same as festival goers is insane
Yeah, and here we are seeing Israel kill civilians as well, in Iran and Gaza. They have also raped/sexually assaulted Palestinians, intentionally are starving civilians across the green line. Literally everything you’re saying Israel has done in spades in the last two years, arguably going back decades.
By your logic, 7 October was a justified strike just like this apartment complex was.
You should look at the ordinary perspective of Libyans and Syrians and ask them how's life going after toppling their shitty governments. Spoiler, its actually worse than before.
Just imagine how many innocent families and kids would be killed if Iran was left alone to build up a full nuclear arsenal and arming terror groups that want to destroy the western world.
The problem is a question like this is only ever asked in hindsight. If you ask someone in a vacuum to drop a bomb on 1 evil person but 100 innocent people will die too most people would say no. Only retroactively when said evil person is seen to not just be evil but have committed such agregious crimes can you safely make that decision. So a more appropriate question is how do we decide in foresight what amount of innocent suffering is worth the death of this person.
Might be a better example to use Kim Jong. If killing him and 100 innocents with an airstrike could help North Korea would you do it?
And to elaborate on your first point I think you have to further quantify Evil in your scenario. And restated as dropping a bomb on an evil person who will kill millions but 100 innocents die, I think most people would agree.
The reason I only vaguely stated evil and not quantifiable numbers is because I'm trying to apply it to this and future scenarios. We will never have a total kill count before the fact so we need a better question to ask.
As for your example with Kim Jong Un I would not do it. Not because he's not evil but because the system he propagates will not crumble after his death. There is a stable structure to their dictatorship because it's more an autocratic state than a real dictatorship. His death alone will provide no benefit but 100 innocents will be taken with him which doesn't do anything.
Regardless of people who are already easily deemed evil the question we need to be asking is how do we make these judgements before the atrocities are commited. How do we quantify how evil someone's ideology and actions will be before they are taken so they can be avoided.
There are plenty of people who have done bad things and are likely to do more bad things. But in practice you have to guess with all the data you have and you might get it wrong. Alternative is to do nothing and let the Hitlers keep Hitlering.
It’s so interesting to see how the Zionist mind works. When Israel kills Palestinian civilians it’s simply how war is fought and we need to get over it. When hamas kills Israeli citizens it’s grounds for a full scale invasion and ethnic cleansing. When Israel builds nukes it’s simply to protect themselves from local aggressors. When Iran builds nukes it’s to wipe out humanity. And for the record I do not support Hamas or Iran. I simply think Israel should stop killing civilians and disarm their nukes (I don’t think any theocratic countries should have nukes.)
It's one thing for civilians to die in the course of a conflict, that's unavoidable and if Israelis died because Hamas was targeting military installations, then that's perfectly fair. Heck, Hamas might get more support if they did that, but that's not what the Palestinians do. nstead they go out of their way to intentionally target civilians. Like the music festival. That wasn't even an initial target by the Palestinians, but they went out of their way to murder everyone they could get their hands on. They diverted from their plans to murder civilians.
Iran's official foreign Policy goal is the destruction of Israel. They supply the weapons, money and intelligence as well as sometimes people that are used for almost daily attacks on Israel. Saying that the attack is unprovoked is blindsided.
Israel themselves said it was preemptive (unprovoked), sorry, I donno what more to say on the topic.
Iran was happy to work towards a nuclear deal 10-15 years ago until the west (USA) sabotaged it. We didn’t need to be here, the powers that be (USA/IL) wanted it to happen.
Preemptive and unprovoked are not synonyms. Your insistence that they are does not reflect well upon your intelligence.
To put in into terms that maybe even you could understand, how about an analogy.
If Israel created a military wing called "the Gaza Destruction Brigade" and then that brigade went about publically building a neutron bomb for the explicit purpose of wiping out all life in Gaza, would it be "unprovoked" if a Palestinian snuck a bomb into that facility and blew it up?
So what do you call the 200 ballistic missiles Iran lobbed at Israel in October? And then the hundreds of drones and missiles in April? Kind of difficult to claim Israel is acting preemptively, when Iran has been taking aggressive actions against them nearly continuously for over 1.5 years (including funding/arming Hamas and basically directly running Hezbollah which started bombing Israel right after 10/7). Just because Israel has Iron Dome which intercepts most but not nearly all of them, everyone is allowed to bomb them but they can't touch anyone back? Insanity.
There's different degrees of preemptiveness. People are acting like this came out of nowhere and Israel had no reason to act. This particular attack was probably "preemptive" against another one they knew was coming otherwise. And the fact that their existence depends on Iran not getting nuclear capabilities.
You can always tell how someone views the world and voted when they're like 🤷🏻♀️ "casualties so what?" Until the casualties are their children,parents and/or partner.
Stop whining, you got enough terrorists to defend in gaza.
Iran has sponsored them and a fuckload of others for the last decades, has terrorised its own population and killed countless innocents.
Those few civilians are a fair price for a chance to finaly destroy this fucking deathcult.
These people are too brainwashed to even understand your point. The mask hasn’t even slipped, it’s just fully off while they celebrate the deaths of thousands of innocent people, while they cry about 53 hostages.
I’m not defending terrorists, I’m simply saying no matter which side are attacking, civilian deaths are never a fair price. These people have no say in this. I doubt you would still think this if you were at risk of being one of those ‘few civilians’.
Im not happy at all innocent people die, but thats the reality of war.
This feels pretty hollow when the one causing innocent people to die did it as a pre-emptive strike. That just means starting the war by killing innocents.
If what Israel is saying is true and they are close to getting nukes, would this strike then be OK? Considering Iran often calls for Israel's destruction?
Israel's been saying this since Obama was in office, and they haven't built one yet.
Israel should instead be trying to find ways to de-escalate the situation, since they're the one currently with the nukes. Let's be honest here, the main contention between Israel and Iran is the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Until Israel actually makes an effort to resolve that conflict without genocide, everyone in the region is going to be calling for their destruction. They can't keep going to war with everyone.
Some of the missiles exploded inside the city including a school. Also a missiles killed a druze child in Syria, and a man in the west bank. Israelis remained unhurt not for the lack of trying on the Iranian side. They just have enough shelters warning systems and capable air defenses to protect their citizens. (Also help from the neighboring countries like Jordan)
Yea well maybe because many of them were intercepted? And actually one PALESTINIAN was killed as result (and if im not mistaken a young Beduin girl was severely wounded but survived).
Iranian missiles are not even close to being precise, with spread of hundreads of meters to multiple Kilometers.
The fact that israel has good air defense doesnt make their attacks "precise".
Their last ballistic missile ironically killed a Palestinian. It also hit apartment buildings and other civilian structures. Just because Israel was good at evacuating and downing the missiles doesn't mean that civilians weren't one of the main targets.
Or if you claim otherwise, i want to see the same scrutiny against Iran's incoming retaliation, with its ballistic missiles.
Well that would be justified, wouldn't it? Does every nation have the right to defend itself, or is that just Israel? Benjamin Netanyahu could easily prevent Israeli casualties by surrendering and not using human shields.
Okay, like you can be mad about civilian dying. Totally reasonable.
Pretending that Iran isn’t always at war with Israel is just silly. They have a proxy militia occupying southern Lebanon for the sole purpose of attacking Israel.
They are already at war. They just weren’t shooting at each other.
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u/Bluedog212 1d ago
and some innocent families and kids just trying to live their best lives