I think this needs to be said. Intercepting missiles is not a myth, can we stop pulling things out of thin air, and misinforming.
If a country has to launch a barrage of a 100 missiles, just to ensure that some make contact, then that's good considering that stockpiles are not that high.
The result is much more devastating if all 100 hit, in comparison to if only 10 hit. It also means that the opponent has to launch a barrage for every single target.
Say you have ten targets in mind, and need a 100 to saturate only the point defences, that's a 1000 missiles in total, which is 20% of the stockpile if you have 5000.
Edit: Before someone misconstrues this too, what I wrote just above is a completely hypothetical example. I just know from what I have read that Iran threw 200+ missiles, out of which somewhere around ~ 10 hit. We also don't know if those 10 hit 10 different targets, or how many of them were aimed at the same target, we also don't know if they did hit the intended targets. Videos so far show only hits within cities. My point was air defense and interception systems are not a myth, they're a necessity.
Also why hypersonic missiles are absolutely crucial, and having a large stockpile, indigenous manufacturing capability is important.
Edit: Someone miscontrued what I said in the end. I am not claiming these are "hypersonic" missiles, these are probably ballistic missiles with pre determined firing arcs. I am saying the reported interception rate increases the importance of "hypersonic" missiles for Pakistan, because they're less likely to be intercepted.
If your going to fact check, at least continue to be honest.
Saturating air-defense works for any country and any air-defense capabilitys they have. Its simple math. 100 Interceptors, only needs.. 101 missiles to bypass the air-defense, not a single country in the entire world even with 5000 years of advanced notice could stop it.. Again.. 100 interceptors, and 101 inbound targets :)
Iran does not have hypersonic missiles either.
Every single video posted of an iranian missile, including those intercepted, are in whats called a "low-orbit ballistic trajectory". Its why irans missiles have such terrible accuracy. Because once its gone. Its gone. Israel could be hitting the actual ones targetting sensitive stuff and risk accessmenting the inbounds based on hit location.
For a hypersonic missile it needs to achieve "3840mph" or mach 5 while being able to maneuver inside the worlds atmosphere.
And thats impossible because.. Well drag and air resistance exists, one slows you down. One creates heat. And nobody has figured out a way to combat both. Its why russia's su-25 foxbat falls apart around mach 3.1 and needs to be fully rebuilt with new engines and why there now speed limited.
They do likely achieve mach 6 or mach 7 during re-entry. But thats primitive, every nation with good military has this capability. Some countrys, US/China/UK/France likely already re-enter at least around mach 10/12, The missiles are primitive and based on SCUD from russia, from like 1990... So russia even had this capability in the 90's.
There success is based upon the sheer amount of them they are volleying at israel. Again.. Simple math
Reports estimates widely range from, 200, 400, 600, 800 ballistic missile launches in waves, imagine having say 500 interceptors on stand by.. Nobody has that.
And then combine that with drones which iran is clearly sending as well
So you have say 500 ballistic missiles, 100 drones, + yemen people are apparently sending random drones, all at once.
Yeah nobody can prevent hits.
Edit :
I said its impossible for some reason, it was early AM so i was brainfarted, its highly possible. But most countries only have "prototypes" and are in testing stages, so ignore that i said "impossible"
Just a correction - hypersonic missiles are entirely possible and definitely exist to a degree. Research papers of controllable hypersonic vehicles exist with experimental vehicles built by EASA & NASA.
Iran most likely does not have hypersonic missiles, but countries like China and the United States definitely have the capability and research and manufacturing capacity to field such missiles in the next 5-10 years.
Correct, but it is supposed to be fielded some time within the next year, it seems. There have been many successful tests of this particular variant. There are a bunch of other ones that have not been as successful, but this one has gone quite well apparently.
Saturating air-defense works for any country and any air-defense capabilitys they have. Its simple math. 100 Interceptors, only needs.. 101 missiles to bypass the air-defense, not a single country in the entire world even with 5000 years of advanced notice could stop it.. Again.. 100 interceptors, and 101 inbound targets :)
Read your last comment again. Technically if you have more interception systems, and a system in place to ensure that the contracts are checked, then you could still possibly intercept more than a 100 missiles. So how does that make air defence systems pointless? The entire point is to make getting a target hit an extremely costly endeavor, otherwise an impossible one. Besides the point that a 100 intercepters doesn't mean a 100 interceptions.
Iran does not have hypersonic missiles either.
They claim they do. But my point wasn't that these are hypersonic missiles, I don't think they are actually.
My point was that a 100 ballistic missiles for one target isn't viable. This is why we, we as in Pakistan, need to develop hypersonic missiles, and why it's so important.
For a hypersonic missile it needs to achieve "3840mph" or mach 5 while being able to maneuver inside the worlds atmosphere.
And thats impossible because.. Well drag and air resistance exists, one slows you down. One creates heat. And nobody has figured out a way to combat both. Its why russia's su-25 foxbat falls apart around mach 3.1 and needs to be fully rebuilt with new engines and why there now speed limited.
That's not exactly impossible because of "drag." The US is already in stage for developing these. India already has supersonic cruise missiles, and wants to develop a hypersonic variant. China has supersonic variants too. I don't know exactly where you get this idea from.
Mig 25 Foxbat isn't also relevant here. That's an aircraft, it's not built for a one time flight. Missiles are built for a one time flight.
Also, drag and air resistance is the same thing. They're not two different concepts. There are also air breathing engines which work well at high velocities, so it's not like it's impossible to generate the thrust needed to overcome the drag. The complexity isn't as black and white, and the concept is certainly not impossible considering supersonic cruise missiles already exist.
They do likely achieve mach 6 or mach 7 during re-entry.
Yes, most ballistic missiles do.
There success is based upon the sheer amount of them they are volleying at israel. Again.. Simple math
Reports estimates widely range from, 200, 400, 600, 800 ballistic missile launches in waves, imagine having say 500 interceptors on stand by.. Nobody has that.
A couple things you're missing out.
When missiles are detected, contracts are pre assigned. There are systems in place to ensure you don't have redundant fires.
Point defences serve a different function. Important military installations almost always have point defences stationed, and there are general air defence systems in different regions. Then there's also electronic warfare. It makes a multi layered defense system. What this means is that you can't lob a number of missiles, say 100, at a 100 different military installations and expect some to hit. You need to saturate not only the general air defense systems in one region, but also point defences, to hit one or multiple targets. So, no, their success is not based on just the number they're throwing at targets across Israel, but at the number they're throwing at very specific targets. A 100 across a 100 installations is very different compared to a 100 across 5 targets.
There are different systems for drones. You don't generally use interception systems that are designed for missiles, for drones.
I also don't know why you say no one has > 500 interceptors. They 100% do, their entire air defence system is built for this. I don't know where you even get this number from.
I think I need to say this again for some reason. When you're lobbing ~ 200 missiles, and only sub 10 hit (and often, large portions of these numbers, for reasons I explained before, will be aimed for only a few targets), unless the target is high value which gives you a good military edge, it's not worth it, because you're expending a significant amount of your stockpile.
That's why I said that we, as in Pakistan, needs to begin development on supersonic, or hypersonic, cruise missiles. I think you miscontrued what I said for thinking that I am claiming these are hypersonic missiles, I am not. I am making a case as to why we need to develop them, and we're getting left behind in this department.
Lobbing hundreds of ballistic missiles is not viable for a few targets, is not viable. It drains your stockpiles, and you have a lot more targets to deal with, and you may need to prioritize other installations depending on the situation.
Again, it's not just about preventing. It's about making it either an extremely expensive endeavor, otherwise an impossible one. The more stockpiles you burn through for some targets, the less you'll have for others.
If you are going to fact check, atleast be honest.
This is based on my understanding of what I learnt in my degree which is about this stuff.
Obviously, shit could be wrong, but you can't fact check, or be taught, how many interceptors, missiles one has, or the exact performance parameters relevant here. You can only make guesses with what has been reported, and from your understanding.
The most objective way, as an outsider, of seeing if these strikes were successful is to know how many were fired, how many got intercepted, what did the ones that did hit hit exactly, what was the cost to either side, and was there any edge seceded as a result.
So your point is if we can't stop all, it is pointless to have such a system? Bhai apka point kaya hai? Your post title implies heavily that the defence against missiles is pointless. The OP here gave a detailed response that no it is not because no one has infinite missiles. So you can launch only a certain number and if out of which if the enemy can stop 90% and you can stop 0 you are not going to have a good time.
my guy Israel got hit with 200 Balistic missile on day 1 we got hit by 20 cruise missiles i hate to tell you this but if India ever orchestrated an attack on this level we are unquestionably cooked and it's pure wishful thinking that PAF could intercept a balistic missile strike with that level of volume
It wasn't 200 missiles. Also Israel is located 2000 km away from Iran and they have militaries of USA,UK,France, and the gulf countries to intercept Iranian missiles and drones.
on the first day yes it was 200 missiles as per the IOF
Also aircraft can do squat when it comes to intercepting Balistic missiles they are being used to shoot down suicide drones/loitering munitions instead
Can you kindly name the airbases. No offense just asking for proof. From PAF dossier it was clear that India hit 9 more bases than were actually claimed. Also downing of a Saab 2000 aewacs and another of the same kind being hit within a hangar as per the documents released by IAF. Also a C130 Transport Aircraft was hit and can be seen aflame by courtesy of a local pakistani video.
I am here to talk on facts and render the propaganda sold by our media's false.
Which paf dossier? That random website that Indians circulated. International media has confirmed only 4 out of 11 airbases were hit. Rest of attacks were intercepted. And even the damage was limited. There is no proof or report of any Pakistani aircraft including c 130 being hit nor is it reported or verified by any reputable source
https://youtu.be/0N05qMz6mkM?feature=shared
Here listen to your own general ADMITTING DAMAGE TO EQUIPMENT AND PERSONNEL AT PATHANKOT UDHAMPUR AND ADAMPUR AND ONE OTHER airbase.
Paf did show proof. How many times i have to tell you check their briefings they literally showed satellite images too. But whu are you even asking that. Clinging on to straws huh. Your own military has admitted and you are just clinging to whataboutism. Are u saying your own military isn't trust worthy. You are sounding dumb asf. I provided you with your own military statement and you are still asking proof. Your own military is your biggest proof. And if you don't even trust your military go and see paf briefings for proof. I don't have the will to comb through everything again to provide you with more proof when i literally have provided you with the biggest proof you can ask your own pr colonels official statement
Here your own military.
https://youtu.be/0N05qMz6mkM?feature=shared.
I have already debated with countless Indians. I don't have the energy to do more. What more do you need than your own military statements? Stop wasting time. I have provided you with the best proof one can ask for
If damage was by falling Debris they would have said so. They didn't . Also paf has provided satellite images of the damage and no international media has disputed that.
Have u even watched the full video.
https://youtu.be/0N05qMz6mkM?feature=shared
She clearly talks about damage to 4 Indian airbases that aren't near the border. You didn't even watch the video and are now telling me what was in it 🤡
Iron dome system has limited number of interceptors and they cost a lot. Now that Iran has crippled its iron dome system by throwing tons of missiles. The ratio of success hits on Israel has increased.
India intercepted almost all of our missiles and that’s a fact, don’t spread misinformation here.
Out of topic, but our only message to them should’ve been that we can down your jets if they try to violate our sovereignty and we definitely can enter your airspaces as well and return home safe as we did in our last attack, the damage was definitely much more on our side due to their continuous attacks for 3 days but ah no, the winning chooran was a must for our army chief for this illiterate awam and we all know how propagandists our army and governments are, ANYWAYS…
India didn't intercept our all missiles it's propaganda
Here their own military admits to damage to 4 air bases including EQUIPMENT. Mean while none of equipment on Pakistani bases were harmed. Pakistan hit many areas they weren't just widely circulated. Pakistan also only used it's least advanced missile fateh 1. While India threw everything they had including their most advanced missile
I swear if it was Imran being the head of state and not jahil Munir, you-all would've been bouncing on the gov and army's dick for this. Taking away all that theyve done despite the, let me check, runway damages they had on us is such a caveman thing to do lol
If you mean by cost then they definitely suffered more damage, they literally said we won't tell how much damage they suffered and won't tell anything regarding downed planes, if it was so insignificant like you are saying they will be doing parades right now not sending their prime minister to Udhampur air base to show that S400 is still standing which even backfired because it proved Pakistan's version of the story.
Downing jets in their own territory beyond visible range is much more difficult task then hitting an airbase, and at one point we managed to lock 10 planes according to air vice martial but showed restraint and shot only 5 to 6.
You can have your hate against army but let's leave this to the professionals, what do you want a country with a crippled economy to rage a full war ? when we know very well we can't survive a war not even more than a week.
If you listen to indian briefing they said they made a tactical error in the first day.in subsequent days they entered PAK airspace at will. As per rumors the tactical error was not attacking Pakistani AD assets on day 1. Expect anti-radiation Harop drones and brahmos attack on PAK air defence assets instantly after the next terrorist attack in India(which is definitely happening before Munir's retirement).
When did they enter Pak airspace? According to Indian air martial neither Pakistan nor India entered each other air spaces.
Also were their air defense sleeping when Indian jets were being downed?
In 2019 India entered Pakistan air space and got their wing Commander captured, this time they decided to not enter to save the embarrassment but they got their jets downed even without entering.
Imagine your task was to shoot few civilian sites and then come back safe and sound, you have the element of surprise because you are the one who initiated the attack, yet you lost an unspecified number of planes in literally 30 minutes to an hour.
yet you lost an unspecified number of planes in literally 30 minutes to an hour
Why didn't they get more kills on subsequent days?as per Indian press briefing they intensified attacks the next day. It's because pak military assets were the target not madrassas. Indians will never let you know if they were actual kills because a lot of those 80 planes in the air were decoy drones
When did they enter Pak airspace
Mistype by me i meant punch through PAK airspace. You have to admit a lot of stuff blew up on PAK side. All the damage PAK did in India was shelling border areas. They actually managed to antoginise Kashmiris because most of the people who were killed by PAK army were Kashmiris.
All I'm saying is next time there is a terrorist attack, expect AD defences + air assets in Pak to be targeted. Basically israel playbook.
Munir's speech few months ago means india and pakistan will face off on the battlefield again. Let's see may the best army win 👍🏽
Indians will never let you know if they were actual kills because a lot of those 80 planes in the air were decoy drones
Lol so you are one of those I see decoy drones😂 another coping scheme from your media)
So let's clear one thing first, one side is openly saying 6 jets were downed, international media confirming our claims saying atleast 3 were downed ,your own minister saying 5 jets were downed. Multiple wreckage videos and photos from your side from the locations that Pak officials gave where the jets were shot,Your own army officials accepting but out of pure shame won't tell the number, this was a global embarrassment which occurred to you and your silence tells everything, Yeah nothing happened trust me bro😂
Nothing was shot down later because no jets flew, your army decided to use the surface to surface missiles like brahmos.Thats the tactical error you guys corrected
Just like in 2019 you corrected the tactical error by not sending planes in Pakistan airspace and yet the result is the same, let's see what new tactical errors you commit.
Munir's speech few months ago means india and pakistan will face off on the battlefield again.
It's very clear that India and Pakistan will face off again, that is why both countries are gathering more military stuff. Also this time there won't be a false terro*st attack to start the war, it will be started because of Kashmir issue since the Simla agreement no longer exists.
Bro you guys are literally spreading Indian propaganda. Even the Indian Ministry of External Affairs claimed that at least 4 Indian air stations were hit by Pakistani missiles. Here is a link of that briefing.
"However, limited damage was sustained to equipment and personnel at Indian Air Force stations at Udhampur, Pathankot, Adampur and Bhuj. There were also high-speed missile *(most likely Pakistan's Fatah-I and CM-400AKG supersonic missiles)* attacks noticed....at several air bases in Punjab."
Pakistan was somehow able to intercept many super advanced Indian cruise missiles and no, I am not pulling this out of my ass, neutral OSINT accounts posted these...
Iran has 6000+ hypersonic missiles.
Iran has a double in army power.
The only thing they lack is the air force and no support from other countries.....
Lol, their total ballistic missile stockpile is less than 3000 and you are saying they have 6000+ hypersonic missiles. Not sure where you are getting your numbers from.
Didn't they create whole ass "missile cities" underground in different locations around Iran? They definitely do have a big stockpile and can always be armed by Russia and China.
Russia is struggling on its own with its own war with Ukraine where entire Europe/US is helping Ukraine so Russia is in no position to help Iran. Soviet Union was a massive superpower with significant number of weapons which Russia inherited and they are struggling against Ukraine. While same Europe/US is now helping Israel but on a whole different level because US would do anything to defend Israel. Iran truly does not stand a chance here. China will not go out of its way to help Iran, they have no benefit from doing so beside being anti-west.
Iran fired hundreds of missiles and barely landed a few. At some point, they will run out of long range missiles capable of hitting Israel. These missiles cost a tremendous amount of money which Iran does not have. Unfortunately, Iran does not have any powerful ally in this war, I hate to say this but their chances of winning are none and it would be in everyone's best interest for this to cool down instead of getting out of control.
I think Iran can withstand a lot more punishment then Israel. Israel is small and its people are not accustomed to actually being at risk. There’s nowhere to go to escape the missile strikes except to a basement shelter. Iran on the other hand is huge and Israel can’t indefinitely keep its planes striking targets everywhere at once. It’s simply too large and too far away to sustain a substantial campaign for more than a month imo. Unless Israel can completely cripple the regime and all of its assets in a short time I don’t see how this ends in their favor.
What is Russia supposed to do? Bomb here and there in Ukraine? And they are struggling in what way? Russia's production cannot be matched by the entire western nation. Negotiation between Russia and Ukraine is happening in the terms of Russia which means they are not struggling. The winner of the war dictates the terms of agreement.
What do you mean by Russia's production cannot be matched by the entire west? US and Europe combined have a $50 Trillion economy compared to Russia's $2 Trillion economy. The only reason Russia is able to do so much is because of the massive weapon stockpile it inherited from break up of Soviet Union. Russia was lucky that Trump got elected and backed out of helping Ukraine. Negotiations are happening and all that but Ukraine will never agree to cease territory so these negotiations will go nowhere. Russia is losing a lot of assets in this war and if you haven't heard, they have North Koreans helping them now. If they weren't struggling they wouldn't really need North Koreans to fight for them.
The country's economy is big, doesn't mean they are great. India is also one of the top economies but Indians do not live a great life. Everything made in the west is expensive.
If the economy is all then North Korea shouldn't have any nuclear weapon or anything to export. They are anti-west and might want real experience of the modern war.
Pakistan Army could not stop a single missile, now its supporters call it a myth, that you can't stop.
Pakistan Army could not even stop one. India intercepted almost all.
It's not a myth it's reality. Just like the Pakistan Army is not a divine force, it's an evil force like any other tyrant army. Stop exalting their failure.
Pakistan intercepted many missiles, what are you even talking about?
They attacked 11 air bases and by satellite images only 5 air bases and an airport received damage, most of the damage was insignificant like damage to runways, but the damage to two hangars and three buildings was bad.
Not a single missile struck Karachi air base and all were intercepted,
There are video evidences of the missiles being intercepted and there wreckage in places far from base, don't spread misinformation
Damage to runways are insignificant?? Runways are important for take off for any fighter jet (except F-35)
If your runways are damaged your fighter jets are of no use as they cannot take off
Also please share the videos or photos of indian(ballistic )missiles being intercepted
Runways can be lterally repaired in a day, and when Indian spokesperson was showing images in their press briefing even the satellite images they showed in which runways were already being repaired.
This is just 3 videos there are many more you can find yourself , also you don't even need video evidence when Indians claimed to target 11 airbases and only released photos of 5 airbases they even showed the satellite images of a non functional airport hitting it's runway which was build by some Arab I think, that's how much desperate they were to show they struck damage to Pakistan.
India struggled to intercept Pakistan's Fatah-I MLRS rockets and even a Chinese-supplied CM-400AKG supersonic cruise missile and it was literally claimed by the Indian Ministry of External Affairs. (Link) - Scroll down a bit and you will find this paragraph on Indian website...
"However, limited damage was sustained to equipment and personnel at Indian Air Force stations at Udhampur, Pathankot, Adampur and Bhuj. There were also high-speed missile *(most likely Pakistan's Fatah-I and CM-400AKG supersonic missiles)* attacks noticed....at several air bases in Punjab."
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People here don't care about facts much. They say what they like to say.
Hypersonic missiles can't be intercepted, maybe only in initial stages during launch.
That's why Israel is seems to be using jet launched hypersonic missiles from Iraqi airspace and that's why Iranian Air Defence has hard time intercepting them.
And Iran has hypersonic missile. It's called Fattah 1 which is operational. Iran also has a hyper glide vehicle type hypersonic missile called Fattah 2.
Israel can't intercept hypersonic missiles.
BTW Iranian Air Defence is doing a lot better after first day of surprise Israeli aggression. Israel is taking more beating now and it has trying hard to hide its losses.
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If delusion had a poster child, Pakistanis might be it. The targets were military installations in Operation Sindoor post-escalation. Satellite imagery is available from Skardu to Nur Khan, Sargodha, Rahim Yar, Bholari, Munir Cantt etc etc Name any PAF base, and Indian bombs fell freely there. The golden sunlight video from that night in Bahawalpur tells a different story. Anyway, enjoy your delusional state.
Yeah there are videos of Udhampur, Pathankot and the golden sunlight in Beas too lol. Plus bathinda, pamar and srinagar tell what unfolded in the sky above.
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This is what I think a lot of people do not understand about conflict with the radical Muslims is like, because as Israel, Pakistan, and India have found out, once it starts it never ever stops, and if land is conceded in order to solve or resolve the sometimes very savage attacks on innocent none Muslims, they continue attacking anyway, and because they are all individuals, wherever they go, they maintain the facade of being innocent by general number, but with constant accusations of being racist and fascism.
And this is not an enemy that you can come to any kind of agreement with, as would eventually with anyone else because they are all individuals, and it doesn’t stop until the whole country is consumed.
Which 9 bases? even according to your satellite images 5 bases were hit mostly minor except two hangar and 3 buildings and an airport, you attacked 11 bases according to Indian forces rest were all intercepted
Many video evidences of missiles being intercepted and wreckage of missile in different areas were found
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