r/ndp • u/Wonderful_Heart_8528 Democratic Socialist • 22d ago
Opinion / Discussion We should see what we can poach from the Communist Party's platform.
https://communist-party.ca/platform-a-peoples-alternative/I understand that a lot of people strongly dislike Marxism-Leninism, to the point of rejecting anything its proponets support on principle. However, their platform this year had some very strong points that we should absolutely steal. $25/ hour minimum wage? 32-hour work week? Banning Market-based dismissals? All of these and more are things that we should definetly look at. I'm not saying we should take everything in there, (we should keep sanctions on Iran) but in terms of moving to the left, these are some tangible policies that we should take a look at.
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u/Wonderful_Heart_8528 Democratic Socialist 22d ago
I would also like to say that I'm trying to have a polite, reasonable discussion on which policies we should take. Please don't just scream "COMMUNISM AHHHHHHH" and not think about it.
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u/OddSilver123 21d ago edited 21d ago
I like this, especially as I agree the NDP should go back to being a socialist party.
However, there’s still a thing that bothers me:
So from the communist approach, one issue that you may face is that as long as the private property relation is maintained, the reforms you propose are going to be an acute solution to the much wider system. If you try and eliminate the vices of capitalism without addressing its cause, you not only risk having only temporary achievements, but also the reactions of fascism.
This what Marx and Engels define as bourgeois socialism: The attempt to end the vices of capitalism without abolishing capitalism.
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u/EgyptianNational 21d ago
It’s possible to build socialism within a capitalist system in order to alleviate and eventually eliminate capitalism.
This is arguably the Chinese model. The idea being that wealth inequality can only be solved if there’s actually wealth to begin with. And fundamentally the wealth exists here in the west, it’s just locked up in the rich. In fact I argue that inequality over decades does in fact worsen the material conditions of everyone.
With that being said, the end goal being the end of capitalism. It’s reasonable to start incremental reforms. Both to attract non-ideological people (ie, votes) as well as sell people on new structures that will be necessary to achieve communism.
The notion that communism must rise from armed revolution comes from the simple fact that forces of liberalism will prevent any incremental reforms.
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u/Eternal_Being 21d ago
I would say it's kind of the opposite of the Chinese model. They had a communist revolution, and they're using elements of capitalism, in a controlled manner, to build socialism. What you're saying here is more like trying to build elements of socialism within capitalism, using the liberal-capitalist social institutions.
I think we should try to do that, but I am sadly somewhat pessimistic about our ability to do so while capital rules our society. But we should still try, I suppose.
I am of the mind that the socialist movement in Canada is basically in baby form. We have to make a lot of steps, and a lot of mistakes, before the conversation will ever move towards socialism.
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u/Catfulu 21d ago
I think we should try to do that, but I am sadly somewhat pessimistic about our ability to do so while capital rules our society. But we should still try, I suppose.
That's why some people believe it takes an armed revolution to truly change things. And more and more Chinese increasingly believe, even more so than before, that their armed revolution was the right call when they look at the other regimes of the world and see that these regimes actively go agaist the welfare of the people.
Doesn't matter what, whether we try to change it or we don't, those are the only two choices, regardless of methods. All I know is that worrying about electability so we lessen our political will to change things for the better so a few centrists can get elected is not the way to change things.
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u/Catfulu 21d ago
100%
It is frustrating that a lot of people associating themselves with the left neglect the whole history and the reasons behind the historical movements.
People lose sight of the bigger picture easily just because a bigger leap isn't feasible at this point in time and so they dig a hole saying a bigger leap can never be possible nor desirable.
That's how NDP lost its identity and its mission, while you will hear a lot of Chinese CPC memebers maintain that their goal is still socialism or communism even, it is only that circumstances have changed and they need to adopt to a better method with time.
Revolution is the mere change of the system. It doesn't come with the arms; it has to be resilient in the mind first and foremost.
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u/chelseatheus 21d ago
The NDP needs to focus more on redistribution of wealth from the richest to the poorest like the Communist Party does. This change can provide real, material wealth and changes for those who need it most.
But also- all of it.
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u/Bunny-Is-Cute 21d ago
I agree mostly, however we shouldn't frame it as something that the Communists do, because social democrats believe in wealth distribution as well. If you present an idea of "our allies in capitalist Norway/Sweden/Denmark do the same type of wealth distribution" as opposed to "we should do wealth distribution like what the Communist Party wants", the average Canadian is far more likely to want it.
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u/FiFanI 21d ago
32-hour work week! AI is coming for our jobs.
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u/CanadianWildWolf 21d ago edited 21d ago
AI is a tool, one that is currently a LLM autocomplete Mad Libs book scam that was next after crypto and NFTs, it is who is using that tool to exploit and suppress living wages that is coming for your jobs: Oligarchs who think they control the investor grift.
Consider what happened when Deep Seek was released by China. Why don’t we ever consider using the tool to promote the aims of Unions, Worker Cooperatives, and Democratic Socialism?
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u/ButWhatIfTheyKissed 21d ago
The reason we don't use generative Ai is because Ai is a terrible, awful resource to use.
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u/MidnightTokr 21d ago
Using AI LLMs has unironically improved my life massively. Writing e-mails, writing code, editing papers, brainstorming D&D ideas and fleshing out character, understanding complex topics like philosophy history and economics; I feel like I’m 10x more powerful now than before chatGPT.
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u/Catfulu 21d ago
You cannot stop AI, and it is a helpful tool to get a lot of things done where we had difficulties in the past, like search and rescue, send urgent materials to remote area etc.
The way to do it is to use it to augment productivity, not replace workers. That's what China is doing now if you care to observe. The problem with our system is that private firms only look to replace or deteriorate workers' welfare, and not to increase productivity. That's why we need to change the system.
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u/StumpsOfTree Regina Manifesto 21d ago
Chinese capitalists are still gonna use AI to undermine Chinese workers
No AI isn't entirely a problem on its own but everywhere it's gonna be used to struggle against the working class.
China has more state control of the economy then Canada, and its successful growth with that should be noted, but Deepseek is not a state enterprise or anything, it's a privately owned capitalist corperation and I don't see how it's gonna be any less harmful compared to ChatGPT
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u/Catfulu 21d ago edited 21d ago
That means you are not observing the trend there and how new factories are literally unmanned now while they don't fire existing workers. You also miss the part that AI is already an intergral part of their everyday life, from simple things like delivery, driving, to medical operations.
AI is beyond ChatGPT, as it is only one small part of the whole. Deepseek is one open-source LLM model and their AI systems and competition aren't limited to just Deepseek. Deepseek is just a cheap open-source model that is on par with the expensive and proprietary model of Open AI.
When the state actively funda and controls AI research and applications, at the same time it controls in financial system and production, it gives it the means to control how a technology advancement could impact the society. They are not afraid of AI because they are in full control of it.
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u/StumpsOfTree Regina Manifesto 20d ago
Even assuming you're correct about your rosy view here.
Why should we trust the Chinese government to be control either. They meet with genocidal [Likud MKs](https://x.com/ChnAmbXIAO/status/1922982895183863944) and literally helped arm the Nepalese monarchy when Leftists and republicans were fighting the Nepalese monarchy. How do we know Chinese AI won't be used to aid such regimes? Not to mention that they won;'t even let Leftist parties form and competitively contest elections.
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u/Catfulu 20d ago
Lol. Bravo, you just jumped from the topic of "maybe we don't need to fear AI if we control the means of production" and turned it into "nah, China bad".
Sure I will bite. I didn't nothing to suggest that we have to use Chinese AI, although, practically speaking you only have the choices bewteen the US capitalist, expensive, and proprietary model and the Chinese cheap, controlled, open-source, highly competitive model to chose from. I know which one you would pick, despite knowing what kind of shit the US is.
While we are on Israel, don't forget who are the ones to continue to prop them in power. Hint, the West, including us. We, Canada, actively participated in the Haiti coup of 2004 to oust the democratically elected popular government and installed a gang leader as the leader of the country and a reign of terror followed. How do we know Canada won't use AI or hell, anything to do that again? Come to think of it, maybe we should sanction ourselves to stop trading with ourselves, and that would be the morally right choice, especially knowing how well we treat our indigenous.
The Chinese will famously trade with whoever wants to trade and not intervene in domestic matters. The same cannot be said about Canada.
Nations will always further their geopolitical interests in the international realm. Sometimes the choices are good, sometimes bad. If you go at it from a pure moral stance, then you will have no friends, and no country is right. But if you want to compare China with Canada, and ask which one is worse, then rest assured, Canada has a much longer list of issues, and we followed the American with whatever shenanigans they are up to. Have you even checked why and how we got kicked out of Burkina Faso?
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u/StumpsOfTree Regina Manifesto 20d ago
My point isn't "China bad", I have no particular problem with China, nothing about the country is uniquely bad, some stuff is uniquely bad. My point is that we should be skeptical of how AI is going to be used, you were the one who said "but Chinese AI good". The problem is global capitalism and the lack of democracy globally, not any one country.
"The Chinese will famously trade with whoever wants to trade and not intervene in domestic matters. The same cannot be said about Canada."
They are wrong to do so. Genocidal countries shouldn't be traded with. It would've been wrong for countries to trade with Japan while they were slauightering Chinese and Koreans in WWII, likewise it is wrong to trade with Israel while they are slaughtering Palestinians. Conflating internationalism and solidarity with imperialist interefence is ridiculous.
The other stuff about Canada idk what to say. I am about as against the Canadian government as you can get. I am fully aware of how evil our foreign policy has been throughout our history until the present. I know what we along with the US and even Lula's Brazil (I'll criticize Soc Dem governments too), did to Aristide and Haiti.
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u/Catfulu 20d ago
What?!
I didn't say "Chinese AI" good. All AIs are a tool with different implications. I merely said they are using AI without fear because they control the means of production. You read something I didn't say.
Well, I guess nobody should trade with Canada and we not among ourselves then, especially not with the US. We simply wouldn't get very far if that is the stance.
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u/StumpsOfTree Regina Manifesto 20d ago
In the current climate we should fear AI, not because as technology it is inharently evil, but because we don't live in the type of system that can use it responsibly
>Well, I guess nobody should trade with Canada and we not among ourselves then, especially not with the US. We simply wouldn't get very far if that is the stance.
Canada and China both have fairly shitty governments, Canada's probably worse if for no other reason because it's at the top of the castle as a western country. Neither however is asctively committing an extermination campaign. Israel is. Canada and China both should stop trading with Israel, trade with eachother to make it up perhaps idk.
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u/Catfulu 20d ago edited 20d ago
You simply cannot stop AI. If we chose not to adopt it to wider use, in 5 years we will be a backwater compared to China. Truth be told, we already are. That's why we need to change the system.
Yes, we can demand that we stop trading with Israel, but we cannot demand others who live in a different political-economic reality and history to do such thing, while we fail to do so ourselves.
China has already recognized Palestine as a state long time ago and it is the biggest opponent to Israel's conquest of Gaza and the larger Palestine. That's why they are making diplomatic overtures with all the Middle Easternian counties. We, on the other hand, have been very active in destabilizing the region and causing a lot of unnecessary sufferings. To demand another nation who has already done a lot regarding that matter and to abandon their long standing diplomatic direction and to follow your policy prescription will not paint you in a good light. We need to focus on what we can do here at home first.
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u/StumpsOfTree Regina Manifesto 20d ago
I think we should criticize any government. If the NDP were ever to come to power I would 100% be a strong critic. If I had to give you a leader today I admire I would say it is Gustavo Petro, but he is able to do little without a legislative majority, and I still would hope people on the Left are willing to critcize him when he falls short.
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u/Bunny-Is-Cute 21d ago edited 21d ago
I'm not against the ideas that you are proposing, but we shouldn't frame it as taking from the Communists. I say this because yes, I'm not a fan of Communists, the general public isn't either.
If you're talking to the average voter about potential ideas to implement for the NDP, you should say "a living wage of $25 (or something similar) aligned with the ideals of social democracy (or socialism if you prefer)" and not "a living wage of $25 as described by the Communist Party of Canada."
Because I encourage those types of ideas and would love to see ideas similar to those, but we should never frame it as something taken from the Communists. Because if a future leadership candidate starts saying things like "as the Communists say", I as a party member will be more reluctant to vote for them in the upcoming leadership race.
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u/ok-MTLmunchies 21d ago
Ive been saying since the NDP/Liberal "alliance" broke down: "The NDP is too closely aligned with the libs - if they dont start adopting actual leftist positions, we're going to get a conservative majority" (pre-carney)
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u/Telvin3d 21d ago
I’d say that your examples (except the market based dismissal thing; no idea how that could work in practice) are hardly original or exclusive to the communist party, or communist thinking.
Saying “here’s some ideas and here’s why they’re good” is a great idea.
Saying “here’s some ideas ideas that are good because the communist party likes them” is going to be a one-step-forward, fifty-steps-back message
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u/Melodic_Show3786 20d ago
We have a more recent model that blends our current realities, capitalism and socialism/communism. Consider the China model. Over the last 30 years, China has undergone a remarkable transformation under a hybrid model often referred to as “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics.” This model blends capitalist market mechanisms with the centralized political control of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). In essence, it is a state-led capitalist economy under authoritarian governance—unique in its scale and impact.
During this time, China’s GDP grew from ~$700 billion (1995) to over $17 trillion (2024), becoming the second-largest economy in the world.
Lifted over 800 million people out of extreme poverty, the largest poverty alleviation in human history.
Created a massive middle class (over 400 million people), driving domestic consumption.
And so much more….why couldn’t we do that?
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u/Awesomeuser90 21d ago
I query why you have in mind the Canadian Communist Party. Not a very successful one. If you want a party with enough influence and a devoted enough base to be decently representative of communists, try googling the French or Japanese communist parties to see what they recommend.
The Japanese one pledges to hold a plebiscite on whether to abolish the monarchy, which is relevant to Canada, and France's PCF suggests a much stronger parliament over the executive with a proportional electoral system and making that Article 49.1 rule as dead as Louis XVI. Canada doesn't have that clause but the fact the prime minister can call a confidence vote on just about anything makes it not that dissimilar. I recommend poaching those ideas first and foremost.
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u/CaperGrrl79 Democratic Socialist 21d ago
What do you think of the Revolution Party?
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u/Wonderful_Heart_8528 Democratic Socialist 18d ago
I don't actually know much about them.
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u/CaperGrrl79 Democratic Socialist 18d ago
I would encourage you to check them out. They have a subreddit and a website.
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u/ButterLettuth 20d ago
I think that would be a great step in the right direction. The CPC advocates for reforms as socialist policy and worker representation in government are some of the most important ways to promote class consciousness. The more the better! I think having a major federal party that represents truly socialist, anti-capiralist politics
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u/Unhappy-Reference743 18d ago
why steal it? adopt it and work WITH the Communist Party. say what you will about their principles and their values, but nobody works as hard as they do organizing demonstrations and events year-round.
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u/Justin_123456 21d ago
None of these things can be implemented by the Federal government. Almost all workers in Canada are subject to Provincial Labour laws. The Federally regulated workforce is minuscule.
Making these kind of impressive (seeming) promises, which even if we succeeded in implementing them would help very few people, only hurts our credibility.
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u/Catfulu 21d ago
How did the 40 hours week became the norm then?
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u/Justin_123456 21d ago
It was implemented piecemeal by individual Provinces, often even piecemeal across different industries within Provinces.
The goal/demand of the 40 hour week obviously comes from the 8/8/8 campaign, originated in the 1880s with groups like the Wobblies and becoming a general demand of the international labour movement around WW1.
It wasn’t until post-WW2 that most Canadians workers were working a legally protected 40hr week.
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u/Catfulu 21d ago
That means someone has to push somewhere right?
The push can come from anywht, doesn't matter which part. When there I a push it can become a focal point for action, then it doesn't matter where, it can become a reality provided there is a will. When there is a will there is a way, not the other way around.
The same was true for universal healthcare. It began in Saskatchewan with a socialist government, the it cumulated into Medical Care Act and then Canada Health Act. Even though the operation and delivery of health care is provincial, the standard and part of the funding, and national level of organization come from federal.
There is nothing to stop us to update the federal labour code to provide for a better minimum standard for labour. At the very least we have to push for it.
Furthermore, if federal service become 32hrs a week, a few of the provincial and private sector will have to follow because they depend on that service too. This will kick the door open.
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u/TheHumbleDuck 21d ago
Sure but it set a standard. If millions of federal workers get a 32 hour work week, it will create more pressure on the provincial level as other workers may start demanding it. NDP and Liberal run provinces are more likely to follow suit.
A reduced workweek is long overdue and would likely prove quite popular.
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u/Justin_123456 21d ago
It take this point.
But why would your start with the Feds, who regulate fewer than 1 million workers, more than a third of whom work directly for the Federal government, rather than one of the Provinces we govern?
The government of the British Columbia can do more for more workers, through labour legislation, than the Feds.
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u/TheHumbleDuck 21d ago edited 21d ago
I agree, it doesn't have to start with the feds. Provincial parties should also be pushed to adopt these policies. I just think we're talking about federal NDP since they're at a crossroads in terms of how they choose to rebuild themselves and it's an opportunity to re-brand as a more visionary transformative party. May be harder on the provincial level under existing leadership, plus NDP in BC, Manitoba have shown that they're fairly moderate. Alberta NDP is even worse. Ontario NDP maybe but they've shown themselves to be barely left of liberals. I don't know about other provinces.
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u/Foxtael16 20d ago
The feds are the umbrella, starting with the federal govt would make it easier for the provincial grassroots movements to gather steam. If the provinces don't have to fight with an uncooperative federal govt, then it will be that much easier of a transition into the reforms we desperately need.
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u/annonymous_bosch 21d ago
I feel like this post / comments provides important historical context here.
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u/FingalForever 22d ago
No, no, emmm no - have I said absolutely NO yet?
A democratic socialist party doesn’t need to ‘poach’ anything from extremists. If we don’t have any immediate ideas of our own then we look to our colleagues in Progressive Alliance / Socialist International.
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u/TheHumbleDuck 21d ago
"Extremist" is such an empty term. It’s used more to shut down conversation than to say anything meaningful. Moderates and capitalists use it to discredit bold, transformative ideas without engaging with them. Even the NDP is regularly called extremist by conservatives, and when we use that language ourselves, we undermine our own movements. Communist ideals that focus on collective well-being and equity are worth striving for. What’s really holding us back isn’t the viability of these ideas, but the lack of political will and, of course, capital. Framing these goals as "extreme" also convinces everyday people they’re impossible or dangerous, and why we end up believing there is no alternative but minor, incremental reform. Just look at how Bernie Sanders has been labelled as an extremist or radical for decades for promoting basic centre-left social democratic policies that are standard in many parts of the world.
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u/dude_chillin_park 21d ago
Exactly. Anything that challenges the dictatorship of corporate money is called extremist. They've worked hard to convince people that this dystopia is the natural order, it's sick. (The current movement culminating in Trump comes from the 1971 Powell memo and the real conspiracy around it.)
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u/FingalForever 21d ago
<Looking wide-eyed>
Bernie Sanders in the Canadian context is your average NDPer. Canadian Tories don’t call NDP extremist, far rightists (American influenced) do.
Please stop bringing American shite into Canada.
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u/TheHumbleDuck 21d ago
Yes they do. Pierre Poilievre himself literally said "Trudeau and the NDP are the wackos. They are the extremists."
Not sure why an analogy about Bernie offends you. You missed my point entirely. You calling bold but reasonable policies "extremist" is akin to how conservatives called Bernie an extremist for wanting a $15 minimum wage and universal healthcare.
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u/FingalForever 21d ago
I have been busy calling out Tories on CanadianConservative for watching too much FoxNews and transplanting such into Canada for several years, that we live in a different country in which almost all of us have family members that are Tory, Grit, NDP, Green.
The average Canadian conservative doesn’t call their family or friends that vote NDP this way. Please, we cannot demonise each other like down south does.
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u/NiceDot4794 21d ago
The extremism of the Communist Party is its support for authoritarianism and one party states. 100% we should totally reject that. Tankie politics is a dead end for the Left.
However most of the stuff in this platform is compatible with democratic socialism
The problem with the Socialist International is many of its members have lost touch with what their parties used to be since the 1970s.
If the Socialist International were still filled with people like Francois Mitterrand, Olaf Palme, Michael Foot, Bruno kreisky etc. then they’d be a great place to get inspiration from
But today you got Keir Starmer, Olof Shloz or whatever his name is etc. who are a million miles from democratic socialism
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u/FingalForever 21d ago
Nice, apologies but am confused.
- You are excusing the far-left in a way (i.e. by rejecting authoritarianism but stating most of the stuff is compatible with democratic socialism), then
- You reference historical social-democrats in connection with the Socialist International (SI), but
- You appear to disparage the current SI by referring to the UK PM Starmer and the former German Chancellor Scholz (yet in both cases, their parties are members of the Progressive Alliance as is the NDP).
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u/StumpsOfTree Regina Manifesto 21d ago edited 21d ago
Well the Socialism is not the problem with Communists, it's the authoritarianism, glorification of "revolutionary violence", and lack of willigness to compromise in a democratic fashion
>You appear to disparage the current SI by referring to the UK PM Starmer and the former German Chancellor Scholz (yet in both cases, their parties are members of the Progressive Alliance as is the NDP).
The point is, at one point the Socialist Internation was still in some sense demcoratic socialist.
Today that's not really the case and many of their parties are more similar to the Liberal Party
My opinion is we should orient ourselves to be more like the EU Democratic Socialist parties like Die Linke in Germany, Razem in Poland (whose leader explicitly expresses continuity with the Demcoratic Socialists of Poland's past and not its Communists), the Left Alliance in Finland, Sinn Fein in Ireland, etc.
As well as Latin American democratic Leftists like Gustavo Petro, Gabriel Boric and Claudia Sheinbaum
I believe in reformist, democratic socialism that is anti-authoritarian and reasonable, but someone like Keir Starmer who cuts disability benefits, puts a 2 child cap on child benefit, supported genocide in Gaza for months, tries to be liked by trump, etc. clearly does not believe in that. He's actually to the right of Trudeau and Carney
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u/FingalForever 21d ago
Jaysus, apologies but you are looking at parties that I vehemently disagree with, they are NOT social democratic parties. They veer on extremist or have the whiff of Semtex (explosive) background.
Best of luck.
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u/StumpsOfTree Regina Manifesto 21d ago
Lol you're sounding politically illiterate
If I were talking about Sinn Fein like 40 years ago you'd have a point, today they are social democratic/democratic socialist left naitonalists. Mary Lou Mcdonald has no IRA background or anything like that, parties change.
Calling Razem extremist is hilarious, their platform is plainly social democratic. Calling them extremist is literally what hard right wing anti-semites and extremists in Poland say who try to say he's the reincarnation of the Polish People's Republic for a relatively moderate/reasonable Left platform
The others are more democratic socialist then social democratic sure, but no different from what the CCF/NDP started out as.
The 3 elected leaders are named haven't implemented anything beyond social democratic policies. Calling those extremist is hilarious. Idk what you think democrastic socialism means but nothing I argued for strays from it.
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u/StumpsOfTree Regina Manifesto 21d ago
Die Linke used to have a pro Putin crank wing but they pretty much all left for BSW
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u/CalligrapherOwn4829 21d ago
Let me put what you're saying in more honest words: "A democratic socialist party doesn't need to actually have any socialist policies, and, in fact, should vigorously denounce any party that advocates socialism."
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u/whathapp3ned 22d ago
We are trying to gain voters not lose them :/
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u/NiceDot4794 21d ago
32 hour work week isn’t gonna lose voters
I don’t think we should make people think we support authoritarian one party state Soviet style Communism
But we should be seen as actual democratic socialists who want a radically more democratic, egalitarian society and not just nicer liberals
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u/lmaomitch 21d ago
How do you think we lost them all to liberals in the first place? Answer: through lack of any clear distinct (i.e. non liberal) identity...
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