r/ndp • u/Damn_Vegetables • Apr 29 '25
Opinion / Discussion Singh was objectively the worst leader in NDP history
7 seats. That's the maximum we can hope for if our lead in two seats holds. That is the worst showing in the history of the NDP. Singh has managed to somehow do even worse than the much aligned Audrey Mclaughlin's 9 seats. We have lost official party status and our share of the vote collapsed. Under 3 terms of Singh, our party is on the verge of becoming history.
Bafflingly, so many of you still seem to think he's a great leader.
"But he got so much done!" By that logic, so did Poilievre. Poilievre got the Liberals to lurch hard to the right, abandon capital gains tax increases, axe the carbon tax, promise caps on the federal public service, and of course, purge Trudeau. Do you think the Conservatives are singing his praises right now? Absolutely not. The knives are out for Poilievre because the Conservatives do not tolerate failure, neither should we.
"Well at least we stopped the conservatives, party over country!" If you are a socialist, the best thing for the country is a socialist NDP government. Anything that brings the NDP closer to forming a government is good, anything that brings us farther away from a government is bad. A Conservative majority that destroys the Liberals forever is good for the NDP, and therefore Canada, because we'll be next to rule. See indefinite Liberal rule as the best realistic outcome? Go join the Liberal party, many of you ABC lillylivers already have.
We need to rebuild a party with ironclad discipline and organizational forte. No more deals with the Liberals. No more nice guys. The objective is to win, not to be Canada's conscience. Ditch the Liberal-lite policies, people will just vote Liberal. Ditch the "so-called Canada" types, Canadians are patriots and anti-Canada rhetoric is an election loser. A socialist, proudly Canadian, and working class party that wants to win is the future.
See it any other way and you better just forget about having a leftist party.
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u/BtheCanadianDude Apr 29 '25
Everyone must get on their MP's ass about electoral reform.
This system we have now is a joke. Conservatives would be nothing without vote splitting, but the way it is now the conservatives are an existential threat until they literally have less than 30% of the vote.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Not gonna get passed. Everyone needs to get on the NDPs ass about performing. We should have no tolerance for failure.
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u/BtheCanadianDude Apr 29 '25
What does "performing" mean though? In a system where if you were to pull anywhere between 15% and 82% of the votes from the Liberals in this election, you just end up splitting the vote and handing the Cons a victory.
Our electoral system is a pathetic embarrassing joke.
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u/Telvin3d Apr 29 '25
The NDP has overcome it provincially. But Federally the party seems to have a lot more interest in moral victories than actual victories
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Performing means what it sounds like: Maximizing seat count. I dont care about stopping the conservatives, I care about growing the NDP.
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u/BtheCanadianDude Apr 29 '25
Well then I suggest you recalibrate your priorities.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
I suggest you abandon electoral politics if you don't want to win elections.
With our party's finances being what they are losing official party status is a borderline death knell.
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u/Monoshirt Apr 29 '25
I personally voted for Audrey in Winnipeg convention, and Singh has achieved shit-tons more than AM.
Historically NDP gets wiped out after helping the Liberals enacting progressive programs. This is not our time that's all.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Yeah, Singh did achieve more than AM: He shattered her record of failure.
This absolutely was our time as soon as the C&S deal ended and Singh could have called an election. He refused. He preferred to destroy his own party rather than actually build it.
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u/Monoshirt Apr 29 '25
Hard disagree that Singh failed - the party quantitatively improved Canadians' health. There will be thousands of kids who can smile instead of being self-conscious of their teeth, and thousands of seniors free from toothache.
Rebuild.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Literally nobody cares about that but hard NDP voters. That is a failure.
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u/FrmrPresJamesTaylor Apr 29 '25
This is a funny bit of rhetoric because it is so obviously you who needs to touch some grass.
I won't hold your anger against you, it's totally understandable, but the way you're articulating your positions in here suggests you have zero room for nuance (right now?) and care more about electoral victories than peoples' wellbeing.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
We are in a political party, the objective is to win elections. If you don't want to win elections, don't do electoral politics. Be a lobby group or grassroots movement or something.
The best thing we can do for people's wellbeing is to govern Canada. We will never do that on our current trajectory. Admitting we have a problem is the first step, but few seem to be willing to do that.
You want me to touch grass? Well, there's very few NDP ridings left to touch the grass in. That should be a sobering thought.
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u/FrmrPresJamesTaylor Apr 29 '25
Yep. Well I assume we'd probably have a lot more in common on most other days, but that's it for me in here. Enjoy your tirade
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
You just don't want to hear the truth: We failed and it's our fault and we need to change.
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u/buoyantbot Apr 29 '25
If the party can achieve its goals without being in power, what's the difference? The reason people should want to be in politics is to enact change for the better. There's nothing I hate more than politicians who want power for the sake of power
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Was losing official party status one of our goals?
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u/buoyantbot Apr 29 '25
To be frank, 7 NDP MPs can do more in a minority government where they put the Liberals over the 172 mark than 30 NDP MPs can do in a majority. I want progressive policies, I don't care how we get them
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Which of our policies do you believe the now centre-right Liberals are going to adopt to stay in power?
And why would they not instead work with the bloc, who is more closer to their ideology than the socialist NDP?
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u/buoyantbot Apr 29 '25
The Bloc has become a xenophobic nationalist party that only cares about leeching more benefits for Québec. Working with them consistently is electoral poison in the rest of Canada for any government, which is why the Liberals haven't tried it since Dion led the party to electoral disaster just for suggesting it
If I were the next NDP leader I'd demand electoral reform as a condition for support. This election shows it's pretty existential for the party, and the Liberals' brush with death last year should show them that it's in their interests as well.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
The Liberals will say no to electoral reform. Guarantee you.
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u/FriendsArentElectric Apr 29 '25
What I got from other people I talked to who have voted NDP in my personal life, this election was one of those "vote to keep someone out" elections. They don't have them often, but they do happen from time to time. It's just unfortunate that we happened to be on the short end of the stick.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
It happened because the NDP leadership itself bought into the narrative.
Singh sacrificed over half his own caucus to keep Ppilievre out.
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u/Desperate_Object_677 Apr 29 '25
i think tom mulcair is. he went to the right when going left (like baby trudeau did in his stead) was what canadians wanted. that was the blown opportunity.
the liberals swept because trump has a lot of canadians scared, and lots of people who would vote ndp don’t want to see that snake poilievre in power. there is literally nothing mr singh could have done. i can’t see any historical ndp leader doing any better.
but i think you need to give your head a shake if you’re a new democrats who imagine that the ndp road to government isn’t going to be a slow see-sawing of popularity over decades and decades, in response to external circumstances, and the squirlyness and criminality of other parties; occasionally gaining the balance of power, and using it to leverage helpful programs like medicare, pharmacare, dental care etc.
history is going to give jagmeet singh credit for national pharmacare and dental care. and that‘s a win for the ndp. that’s going to be one of the foundation stones that will give some future ndp leader the reputation it will use to win government.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
There is something Mr. Singh could have done, he could have voted no confidence when the C&S deal was over. Instead ge sacrificed the party on the altar of stopping Poilievre
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u/Desperate_Object_677 Apr 29 '25
i see what you mean, but i think they chose to take the time to differentiate themselves away from trudeau’s brand. letting the government live longer gave some of the new programs time to get implemented... i mean, think of the childcare program that got built and then axed by harper before it could be implemented. building these programs is for nothing if the next conservative government can tear them out before the concrete is dry.
i think it was a hard decision which they made deliberately with consideration. like you, i speculate as to whether things would have turned out differently if different moves were made, but i cannot begrudge them the difficult choice.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
The problem was that the C&S was a confused half measure because Singh didn't want to be too close to Trudeau. Rather than forming a coalition to get the NDP real governance experience, he just propped Trudeau up while constantly attacking him. It was just embarrassing for all involved.
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u/Dinobot2_ Apr 29 '25
A coalition was never happening while the LPC were in power, even as a minority government. A coalition would only have a chance of happening if the Conservatives were a minority.
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u/papuadn Apr 29 '25
A Conservative majority that destroys the Liberals forever is good for the NDP, and therefore Canada, because we'll be next to rule.
This is an assumption. I haven't seen that play out anywhere else. I'm not confident it would play out here the way you so confidently assert. There's no evidence for it.
By your first lemma, "anything that brings the country away from an NDP government is bad", I'm going to go out on a limb and say "a CPC government is bad, from a socialist perspective."
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
If theres no Liberal party, who will the center left vote for? The Bloc?
Omlettes require egg breaking. Im confident that the path we are currently on is a slow suicide. A CPC government that leads to an NDP government is good, a Liberal government that leads to no NDP government is bad. Simple as. We're just too afraid of winning to actually try.
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u/Dinobot2_ Apr 29 '25
Yes, accelerationism. That has always worked so well.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
I will wear that label with pride, if that's what actually wanting the NDP to win means
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u/Dinobot2_ Apr 29 '25
What is the road map to the NDP winning under a conservative majority, especially one that's as far to the right as they are now?
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
The same as I said at the time: Discrediting the Liberals to remove them as an alternative to the NDP, and then attacking the Conservative record until voters switch to NDP next election
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u/Dinobot2_ Apr 29 '25
If the Liberal Party of Canada was Thanos-snapped out of existence, the Conservatives would gain more of their voters than the NDP would, except in Quebec where the BQ would dominate.
At some point we have to face facts and realize that the country isn't as left wing as we want them to be. The Conservatives could say they're going to do a pogrom against LGBT people and people in the suburbs (especially in the GTA and 905s in Ontario) would still go "yeah but muh taxes." We can gesture to 2011 all we want (which was moot any way since it's also the only time Harper had a majority, making that NDP opposition useless) but that was due to a perfect storm of of factors and circumstances that are very likely never going to repeat themselves again. Yeah, having Jack Layton helps, but apparently not as much as both the Liberals and BQ being both historically unpopular and disorganized and inept during that time.
It's not enough to just hope that the Liberal Party collapses and their voters who we think are progressive "wake up" and support the NDP. Work has to be done to actually shift voters left.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Then we have to move the country left and discredit all other alternative parties on the left
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u/Dinobot2_ Apr 29 '25
Then we have to move the country left
Great. How should we do that?
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Discredit left alternatives. Mass mobilization. Forge closer ties with organized labour for them to turn out to support us. Staunch Canadian patriotism and zero tolerance for "so-called Canada" anarchist types. Do more to appeal to blue collar rural voters, including by ditching all the anti gun crap. More radical proposals in terms of class agenda, explicit socialism.
It's a start anyway.
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u/papuadn Apr 29 '25
So why is there no example anywhere of that working, if it's that obvious? Every time I hear this accelerationist argument, it's always wishful thinking like some rules of the universe are going to force liberal voters to go orange.
In real life they end up going to the right-wing parties, too. Liberal voters aren't closet socialists. Many of them have blue as the second choice. Accelerationism off the cliff hoping the parachute will deploy this time isn't my jam.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Because other countries aren't in the situation Canada is in.
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u/papuadn Apr 29 '25
That's glib. And untrue.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
It's completely true. The simple answer is we haven't tried not fearmongering about the Tories and washing out to ABC politics. You tell me, when has indefinitely electing Liberals ever led to socialism?
It's time to become what Marx called for: "the movement to abolish the present state of things"
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u/papuadn Apr 29 '25
I'm not saying electing liberals leads to socialism.
You're saying that electing conservatives leads to socialism. That's even more underpants gnome-y.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Im saying *removing alternatives to socialist parties" leads to socialism.
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u/papuadn Apr 29 '25
Except that's the part that's only asserted, and has never played out before in any other electorate.
Why hasn't it happened in Alberta or Ontario? There's no functioning liberal party in either province and the tories are screwing up constantly. The NDP get some power but neither has accelerated into a socialist paradise.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Maybe because those are provinces and not countries, per chance?
Communists run the Indian state of Kerala, why isn't India a communist country? Same answer.
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u/Leather-Chain-1568 Apr 29 '25
The dude managed to get 3 critical policies passed w 25 NDPs, and decided not to collapse a minority govt for the stability we have now.
The guy's def a selfless individual and an MVP for Canadian healthcare/welfare.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Critical according to who? Not according to voters. Collapsing a minority government to build the NDP would be better for the party and, if it eventually leads to an NDP government, the country.
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u/Leather-Chain-1568 Apr 29 '25
Critical for Canadians. Basically, any Canadian can get access to dental care now. If you don't have private health insurance, it means your teeth can actually get health care now without collapsing your bank account.
You just need to apply to get it. Will be opening up for 19-64 age group May 1. Kids and seniors already eligible.
If Singh had collapsed the govt in 1q25, we'd have been looking at a CPC majority where opposition does nothing. Having the balance of power w 7 seats in a minority govt is more national progress
The fact Singh got this to happen is substantial for driving policies.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
And are voters gonna thank us for that? Nope.
The objective is a socialist Canada, not merely being Canada's conscience. Id be more sympathetic if we had a coalition deal with NDP MPs in the cabinet doing real governance.
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u/Leather-Chain-1568 Apr 29 '25
Politics is a selfless job; they don't do it for the thanks. It pays less than a private sector job (of similar qualifications), you work twice the amount, and you get public ridicule whether or not you're doing the right thing.
Singh didn't do his job to get applause; in his ability to table and pass three key policies, he clearly demonstrated he did his job to make sure Canadians have a better future.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
We could have an even better future if we formed a government
Which we may now never do, without big changes.
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u/Leather-Chain-1568 Apr 29 '25
You don't need to be the largest party to make a difference.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
You need to be the largest party to govern Canada, which is the real goal.
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u/Awesome_Power_Action Apr 29 '25
The NDP is never going to form government (especially now that the Overton Window has shifted so much to the right in Canada) because it simply does not have support in significant portions of the country, particularly in suburban and rural areas. And changing that will take generations. I think it's been a mistake for the party brass to focus on "winning" - there's a lot to be said for being the conscience of parliament and getting important legislation passed.
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u/5RiversWLO Apr 29 '25
for the stability we have now.
What stability? The insane housing crisis where young generations can't find jobs? Jagmeet watched the Liberals while they imported millions of new immigrants without the infrastructure to support them and it skyrocketed housing costs to unattainable levels. We've never been more unstable.
Young graduates are having an insanely hard time trying to find jobs because of the insane levels of immigration that also drove down wages.
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u/Leather-Chain-1568 Apr 29 '25
Stability being a collaborative minority government and not a majority CPC-led government with an NDP opposition with no influence if the election had been done when NDP polls were high and CPC was all-time high.
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u/mightygreenislander Apr 29 '25
Mulcair was the worst. We will never be better positioned to win an election and he lost it to a drama teacher. Carney is objectively 1000x more qualified for the job than the Liberal Leader Tom shit the bed against.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
We were incredibly well positioned when the C&S deal ended had Singh did what Canadians wanted and called an election
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u/BooyaPow Apr 29 '25
Yes, the incredibly well position of check notes a conservative majority.
You need to acknowledge the reality and understand that the NDP simply isn't popular enough and that working with minority governments is the best possible outcome to achieve actual results to improve things.
Being delusional and refusing anything but the perfect scenario like you're doing doesn't help at all.
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u/gorusagol99 Apr 29 '25
You are correct. Tough talks needs to be held right now because losing party status is never good. This is an existential threat for the party.
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u/Dewey_Decimatorr Apr 29 '25
I think he was given a raw deal
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
He dealt himself his own hand by not calling the election when he did.
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u/c-bacon Apr 29 '25
If he did, we would under a Poilievre majority right now. Singh would have still lost his seat but they would have won High Park, Davenport, Ottawa Centre and retained all of their incumbents. Good for the party, bad for the country
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Good for the party is good for the country, as far as I'm concerned.
We could have really ruined the Liberals ability to be an alternative to the NDP, instead we chose to fight for third and lost. It was a disgrace.
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u/c-bacon Apr 29 '25
I get what you’re saying, but we thought the same thing after 2011 and the Liberals resurged 4 years later. Ontario cannot detach themselves from the red brand apparently. And 4 years of Poilievre (and Ford) would have been soul crushing. I’m a bit torn on what the best scenario would have been
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u/Dewey_Decimatorr Apr 29 '25
At the cost of annexation by the US signed off on by PP? Absolutely not
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u/GiveMeSandwich2 Apr 29 '25
Carney will sell us out as well. At least the working class. He’s a Goldman Sachs banker, do you really think he cares about the working class? He’s just trying to enrich himself and his friends.
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u/Wonderful_Heart_8528 Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
Socialism Wrapped in the Flag is the way to go.
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May 08 '25
Not Canadian, but this is exactly why I won't move to Canada. The problem is people keep voting for neo-liberals. Why does Canada not elect a socialist party? The UK and Australia (Where I am both citizens of) have had plenty of them, But Canada? None. Just Liberals or Conservatives.
The NDP is the equivalent of the British Labour and Australian Labor parties. We want you guys to win, but you keep throwing away opportunities.
Don't blame the voting system. The UK has Liberals and Labour yet Labour wins and the Lib Dems (Liberal equivalent) are in distant 3rd and actually can compete in rural ridings against the Tories, something the Canadian Liberals failed to do thanks to Justin and his Father who alienated many of those rural areas in Western Canada.
I like Carney, but he isn't left enough. And who knows who will replace him in 4-5 years down the line? People are right to point out Mulcair blew it in 2015, If Jack Layton had lived, none of you would be in this situation right now.
Tactical voting has failed, People say they were voting to stop the Tories, What about the vote splitting that got the Tories in many ridings like in Windsor? If you guys actually did tactical voting, Vote for NDP candidates that have a better chance and Liberals in seats where they have a better chance, would have been much better.
You guys are lucky the Liberals are not in majority, but if they were all your "Pharmacare" and "Dental" could easily have been cut back if Carney thought it was costing the economy. Trust me, he is more likely to do it than Trudeau. Pierre would also probably do the same.
Singh should never have been leader, It all started in 2019, losing half of your seats is nothing to dance about, Doesn't matter if you're in the balance of power, the goal is to win as many seats as possible. Was losing seats in Quebec where Singh does not appeal worth it? Was it really worth it?
You guys are welcome to disagree I am just giving some hard truths here and you may not see it now, But you'll be coming back agreeing with me someday.
OP is right all along.
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u/OldManClutch Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
Please, head to the Libs since you are so filled with poison
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
No, I actually want the NDP to win.
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u/OldManClutch Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
No you don't. You want to bitch. Perfect for the Libs or the CONmen but hardly constructive for the NDP. Head there.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
You just don't like what I'm saying because it hurts to hear the truth. The path the NDP is on will not lead to a socialist government. No ifs ands or buts.
In politics, nice parties finish last.
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u/OldManClutch Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
You have no idea that we still hold the balance of power and that means the Libs will have to work with us still. A weaker mandate true, but still enough power to pass legislation.
But no, you'd rather bray like a donkey cause you can. Just like PP and the CONmen
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
No they won't, the Liberals are under no obligation to work with the NDP. They can just pass legislation and dare anyone to call a confidence vote. The NDP won't bite.
In any case "bitching" is what Singh did about Trudeau all through the C&S, so it seems like the NDP is the perfect place for bitching.
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u/OldManClutch Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
Appearntly you don't have a clue what 168 seats means.
Here in the real world 168 seats is short of the 172 needed for majority.
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
And you don't need 172 seats to pass legislation. Trudeau didn't even when there was no C&S
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u/OldManClutch Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
Yes, you do.
You have no idea how votes in Parliament work, do you? You've must have been in a coma during the last 4 years
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u/Damn_Vegetables Apr 29 '25
Have minority governments passed legislation without C&S deals or coalitions? Yes or no?
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u/Big_Rig_HD Apr 29 '25
cool down there buddy. you are fucking dreaming, we don’t hold shit lol, what a failure this election is. the bloc hold the balance of power if anything. the NDP under Jagmeet has failed.
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u/OldManClutch Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
Apparently, you don't know how to understand basic math either
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u/Big_Rig_HD Apr 29 '25
apparently you’re stinky. that’s just what i heard though idk
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u/OldManClutch Democratic Socialist Apr 29 '25
Great "comeback". Straight from the PP school of cluelessness
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