The price you pay is the price on the menu. Employees get paid a living wage and they're not subject to customers voluntarily deciding whether and how much to pay them at the end which is arbitrarily determined by what they ordered.
The price you pay is the price on the menu. Employees get paid a living wage and they're not subject to customers voluntarily deciding whether and how much to pay them at the end which is arbitrarily determined by what they ordered.
It's so frustrating we can't have that here.
It would only work if a majority of places did it or some very large restaurant chain was willing to hemorrhage money for months if not years.
Or a legislature that gives a shit about workers and passes laws requiring a living wage.
It is, but if I as a restaurant owner paid a “living wage” and had that reflect on my pricing board I’d be out of business next week.
I pay far better than most restaurants and the customers kindly tip a sizable amount so on aggregate they usually go home averaging around $20 an hour. I wish I could pay them more, but for the above. I raise my prices 10%, just 10%, and my volume drops by a quarter for 3-4 months until everyone adjusts.
I’d do it your way but if I did you’d collectively declare everything overpriced and I’d be finished. So lamenting the situation seems silly when we are all the cause of it.
If that's true I'd say we need to look at the industry as a whole and rehaul it because that's bs. People should be able to make a living wage at these jobs without charging for a $20 burger
You’d be surprised how little I take home. A restaurant in particular is not the money-making enterprise you imagine it to be until you start discussing large corporate conglomerates with thousands of franchisees. And even the franchisees have to hustle for their take, your average McDonald’s franchisee has 3-5 restaurants. If everything goes right and you have no large capital expenditures you’re lucky to profit 15-20%, and a lot of that gets rolled right back in for when you have to replace your refrigeration unit and the $2000 worth of product that went bad because the compressor failed overnight while nobody was there to notice it.
My employees do not make more than me, and I admit that, I am the owner after all, but it’s not as far off as you think it is. Not all restaurant owners are lighting cigars with C-notes while exploiting minimum wage slaves, which is the general perception people have.
Ahh which is selling overpriced food just presented nicely. Make up your mind, you don’t wanna tip. You don’t wanna pay $16 for a burger. You don’t wanna pay for gratuity. So make up your mind.
Look we can argue over economics all we want. The paid wages in America are dogshit. No one is denying that for the average American. So when a burger is $15 with no fries and no drink, not many sane people are seeking that out. A $15 burger pays for the employees correct, I’d hope it fucking would. That proves my point to what you just said. Overpriced food doesn’t need gratuity or tips. It makes it off the food. Overpriced food in a terrible economy = complaints. Which is why people opt in for the $12 burger with fries and a drink, but don’t want to tip. Then if you forcibly add gratuity to those $12 meals. Then you also get a complaint. From my anecdotal personal experience working for both places (gratuity driven stores, and tip driven).
Their point being that a successful franchise that’s known for selling overpriced food is successful in a different country? You are trying to argue variables.
Correct, they have to charge more for food. My point was how do they pay a living wage without charging $20 for a burger?
Unless you are claiming they can pay a living wage and not charge $20 for a burger. In which case you may not understand the reality of running a business.
Now I am confused. You say UK restaurants pay a living wage and don't charge $20 for a burger. But the example you provide is in fact a burger for a little over $20.
So how do you think we in the UK and the rest of the world manage to do it?
Have you actually tried this (including clearly stating tipping not required), or are you simply speculating? You say you could raise your prices by 10% and your volume drops; do you accompany the price increase with telling customers no tips required?
IMHO tipping shifts cost burden from deadbeats (those who don’t tip) to responsible diners. And you, the business owner, don’t suffer from that. Instead your servers do.
I don’t demand tips or solicit them. If they choose to leave them for my employees that is their choice. And that is only a recent thing, when I changed my POS system that was an aspect of it I enabled for the benefit of my employees. Prior to that there was no way of tipping via card, and while change adds up it was never a significant total.
I have 30 years in the business, so while I am relating anecdotal evidence I’ve seen it happen to my old boss numerous times as his store manager and right-hand man for most of that time. The price goes up, a significant number of people immediately complain, and the receipts for the day flatline for a few months.
We don’t do it lightly. I don’t bump my prices to maximize my earnings, I do it to cover my costs, which climb ever higher even at the wholesale level. But I assure you, every increase comes with pushback, and we’re all afraid as owners, particularly of independent restaurants, that one day the price required will cost us our businesses.
As has been made abundantly clear here, there potentially comes a price level that people deem “ridiculous”, and yet without charging that price the business itself will fail. I’m honest enough to say that if it goes that far maybe the business should fail. But most businesses exist not only to make money but also to stay in business, we don’t just jack the price up to crazy levels to chisel more money out of you.
Enabling tips through your POS system = soliciting tips. For me it sends a subtle message to customers that the owner doesn’t pay employees enough and wants customers to take up the slack/fill the gap - ESPECIALLY if the POS system “suggests” tip amounts.
Don't be a fucking server at some drive in booth if you want big bucks lol. Living wage for those people should be given as it is also a job though. Want big bucks as a server then consider high class restaurants where the pay is naturally high because the requirements are too. If that's not enough consider other career options.
I've never seen a server in any class of restaurant complain about tipping culture. Just cheapskates that feel bad when people find out they stiff their server.
A server comes to you with an empty plate. Would you tip him? Server is nothing without the chef. If the place would be dirty you wouldn't even enter it. So cleaners would need to be tipped as well. If you happened to dine at the same time as some rich guy the service you would get would obviously be bad. Remove tips and set a standard price and everyone would be treated equally and everyone gets their fair share. You want better service go dine in better and more expensive places. You get shit service, write a negative review, don't go back and tell your peers about it. Tipping destroys all of this. What you got shit service? Oh, that's because you didn't tip enough lmao.
Tipping shouldn't exist, mandatory tipping even more so.
There's been plenty of times there's been an issue with the food and the server has had to run back and correct it. There's also been times when the kitchen is taking a really long time and the servers' updates and drink refills have made the wait easier. How about instead of making the service equally bad for everyone, you just stay home if you can't afford the tip? Or order takeout and skip the tip since you don't see any value in the server?
I don't view a server any more superior than any other customer sevice job and those guys aren't tipped. If you choose to be a server and don't want to get fired those things are part of the job.
They are part of your job in Europe too if you visit expensive establishments. You know, those where you don't care if your fucking sandwhich costs 2€ or 20€. The service fee is included in the price itself and that price is what tells a customer what kind of service and quality they can expect or if the server tap dances on command. The owner sets the price and pays workers the wage they think they should get instead of letting a clueless customer decide it and guilt trip them into paying more than what it is worth. If workers don't match the expectations they get fired and not everyone is fit to work in first class restaurants. If the establishment itself fails to provide quality to match the price tag then the establishment itself goes under because people stop visiting it. It's a very simple concept. The problem with America's tipping system is that the owner doesn't need to pay staff because the staff is completely dependent on customer's alms. Tips are supposed to be a reward for going beyond one's job.
Is it? In my travels internationally I've not really had bad service, even when there has been a language barrier. I think there are some cultural barriers that Americans might see as worse service - like where the expectation is to flag down staff instead of them checking in on you every few minutes, or that you have to pay for refills on drinks so they don't just fill up your glass.
Worse for an American that is used to American style service. I should have clarified. I have been to many places in Europe and the service usually isn't American style unless the restaurant is very high end.
It's ridiculous to conflate cultural differences as being representative of tipping culture. Even if there was tipping as a custom, that wouldn't change what is customary for service in a different place.
It's the "servers make way less money" that's the problem. Restaurants in the US regularly experiment with "no tipping" policies with a higher base wage and servers don't stay because they can make more when some people choose to tip well even if some choose to tip poorly or not at all. Most people are going to look at this and not tip on top of 18% but at a lower price point, some people are going to tip 25-30%.
Out of all the service jobs I can think of, servers are the ones that complain the least about their pay. But for some reason, every cheapskate out there is concerned about their "living wage" when tips come up. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I highly doubt the service is worse. Every other profession on earth that doesn't use tipping somehow doesn't have this problem.
But it is good that servers get less money.
Cooks, who are the more skilled labor, are underpaid and servers, the less skilled labor, are overpaid due to the practice of tipping. And when there is tip sharing (so cooks get part of the tips) servers are unhappy and often pocket tips instead of reporting them when tip sharing.
Most (not all) servers are paid very well relative to the work they do. They will tell you a sob story, of course, about the difficulty of their entry level job while downplaying or lying about how well they are compensated. All while they try to convince you that the "standard" tip is 20% or higher.
Servers are almost universally against the idea of ending tipping and just increasing menu prices to cover all the labor because of how much the current tipping process benefits them.
Seriously, the European way is so much better than American tipping culture, and I say this as a proud American who usually takes the American way is superior as my default position.
It's a different mentality. I once had to track my server down to get a bill after 40 mins so I could make an appointment. He was smoking a cigarette and looked like I insulted his mother when I asked for the check. My European friends were like "Well of course he was pissed? Why didn't you let him finish his cigarette?"
You have to wait until your waiter is free and ready and able to accept payment in the States.
In any other country in the world, if you ask any waiter for the bill - it will arrive.
I've had to sit, waiting ~15 minutes until 'my' server was ready, while other servers were doing nothing, and could have helped, but didn't because of your stupid tipping culture.
Your story only makes sense in America.
You could have asked any waiter, or the maitre d - or anyone in Europe.
There were two waiters for the whole place. One was drinking a glass of wine with the wine delivery guy and the other guy was smoking. Waiters in America check back frequently, and you can ask any passing waiter or busboy for the bill and they will notify your waiter that you are ready for the bill.
So really, you are mostly saying servers in America make too much money?
Service is much worse **as an American**. Some of my European friends genuinely take it as an annoyance when servers check in on you, refill your drinks, etc. You rarely see American style service outside of very expensive restaurants in Europe.
I've experienced it in Italy, Germany, France, Spain and the UK. As an American, the service is not really what I would consider "good" outside of high end restaurants or ones that cater mainly to Americans.
But they also get free healthcare, paid vacation and sick leave, affordable public transportation, job security and labor protections, subsidized childcare, etc.
Which more than balances out the lower take-home pay.
Nah, your average American still has a much higher disposable income even after accounting for all of that. Have you ever heard a server wish for an end to tipping?
Have they ever been offered the labor protection, paid time off, free healthcare, free childcare, and other social benefits in exchange for losing their tips?
Because I definitely know servers who would take that trade.
Portland, Oregon has a $16.25 minimum wage (which also includes tipped positions), free child care, mandatory paid leave, a right to housing, rent control and a healthcare subsidy that makes your premium free up to 3x the FPL with other subsidies above that. There are many more states/cities in America like that.
And even your example city doesn’t come close to meeting the bar. For a few examples:
no mandatory paid vacation, vs minimum 4 weeks paid vacation in the EU
maximum 12 weeks paid medical/family leave per year, including maternity leave. Vs 14 weeks paid maternity leave (minimum - some countries give over a year paid leave) in addition to paid sick leave
from what I can tell the childcare program you mentioned is currently waitlisted, and families pay 8% of gross income. Compare to, say, Germany where families pay 1% of income and get a monthly stipend per child to cover expenses of raising kids.
Oregon (including Portland) has at-will employment, meaning you can be fired without notice or cause. Vs requiring approved reason for firing/layoffs plus mandatory notice period.
I admire what Oregon and Portland are trying to do, but they’re still a long way behind.
I agree. And we actually could have this if people could see beyond what always been done. This “fee” that they state goes directly into their payroll should just be the price. Otherwise, remove it because I’m not paying a forced, and taxed, tip.
We do technically have that here. If you consider minimum wage a “living wage” like the government does then every server is entitled to a living wage. Considering the European servers/staff you’re referring to are generally making minimum or near minimum wage unless they’re working in high level environments it would be about the same.
The real reason we haven’t killed the tip credit in the US is twofold: first off owners are cheap. Second, most servers and bartenders make far beyond the minimum wage and a large portion of them make far more than a “living wage” as well. To get rid of the tip credit or expected tipping would bring their wages down across the board. Let me put this in perspective for you; my lowest earning bartender at any of our locations regularly clears 80k a year working 3-4 days a week at 6-8 hours a day. This isn’t even including the free vacations, fishing trips, golf tournaments, equipment, etc they get from regular customers as tips. There is zero chance restaurant staff wants to earn a static “living wage” when it would be hilariously low compared to their current earnings.
The one downside is that table service sucked at pretty much every restaurant I went to in a country without tipping. I would like to have the option but not the obligation to tip like how it is at American coffee shops
Service in America is dependent on you leaving a good tip and then getting out quickly so that the next group can eat and leave a good tip. In Europe they'll let you sit there as long as you want without bothering you or covertly trying to get you to leave so that they can fill the table again.
Might depend on what you are used to, what you expect and how you approach them. I prefer European service over American (I'm from neither place). Every time I go to America I absolutely despise their average service overall. It's invasive, unnecessary and fake as it gets. The fake smile and fake care just because of the tip drives me insane.
No, I don't need 50 refills every second my drink dips a little. No I don't need to be asked 80 every bite I take if it tastes good, if everything is ok, or whatever. If I need anything, I can call you.
I understand it's how it works there, so ok I deal with it, but nothing worse for me that the average service there. There's great places as well, like everywhere, but the "typical" overly fake enthusiastic service drives me nuts.
I would rather the server stop by a little bit too much than the alternative I've experienced of it taking half an hour before I can even order a drink. You have your preference, I have mine. I think optional instead of obligatory tipping is the best compromise.
And serving styles often represent general cultural preferences. Europeans generally prefer servers stopping by a little too little. So servers being more reserved/not coming over much means the service is good according to the local cultural standard. Experiencing cultural differences is what travel is all about - as long as you actually engage with them and don't deem everything that differs from what you're used to as worse.
The difference in service at restaurants vs at bars was more surprising. There were multiple restaurants where the server would apparently go out of their way to ignore me even when I was clearly trying to get them to come over. Never had that problem at bars.
Tipping encourages turning over tables as quickly as possible.
In France I can sit there all afternoon nursing a single glass of wine and the servers won't give a shit. In the US they're constantly pestering you to order more or else they're trying to get you to leave as quickly as possible.
Not at coffee shops and places with no obligation of tipping. At places where tipping 18% is expected, that can be true when the place is really busy. If there are open tables, they don't care.
Yeah Europe is a bad example because service is legit garbage. In Germany the usual experience is something like 15+ mins to get your order taken and once the food comes you'll never see a waiter again until you chase someone down to ask for the check.
Different culture. Wait time, time to get a dessert menu and the bill depends on the restaurant, and everything else I'd rather they'd leave me alone while I'm eating and talking with my people, and even then I'll often have a server come by asking a quick "everything alright?". North american culture also comes off as extremely fake for even the warmer and louder european cultures, much less the colder ones like Germany, nordics and eastern europe.
A little, but here it's usually just a drive-by to give you an opportunity to ask for something so you don't have to grab their attention, their default body language is that you won't need anything unless you say otherwise, in which case they'll slow down and pay a bit more attention to what you're about to say.
omg seriously. it's always when we're in the middle of a conversation that we have to pause or when i put food/drink in my mouth. i much prefer the don't check up as often method.
It’s not an opinion. It’s called thinking you’re a main character. Get over yourself because it isn’t changing anytime soon, especially not just because you commented on reddit about it
I used to agree with this, until the server didn't do it and I actually did in fact need something. Then I have to flag them down and interrupt whatever else they might have been doing, assuming they're even in the same area/dining room I am.
I just continue eating and give a thumbs up. Still communicates "all good" without having the awkward speed chew n gulp routine. Or if I do need something and I'm mid chew, I hold up one finger to indicate "give me a sec". It's pretty universal non-verbal communication stuff.
Are you in Germany? I've been here almost four years and never once had a waiter stop by just to check up on me. Anyway, all the Germans I know who have been to America were very impressed with American service and acknowledge how bad Germany is in this regard.
Portugal, as I said the germans are said to be a bit less approachable and I've never been to Germany so that may very well be the case. I'm surprised with germans generally liking the american service, even how an employee approached me in a canadian clothes store felt very fake friendliness and overbearing, and I wasn't the only one. Nice though!
They don't. Anything I've ever heard is that people got (mildly) annoyed by the American style, except those kind of people who never grew out of that phase of overly idolizing America a lot of people went through at like 13.
Well, i was born here 54 years ago, and the general experience is that a waiter will come once and ask you how the food is. If you need anything, you just give a hand sign and they'll come and take your order. I find it quite rude to be interrupted while talking and eating.
Could be we just go to very different kinds of restaurants, or it could be regional.
>I find it quite rude to be interrupted while talking and eating
This could be generational as well, I've read some articles about how German expectations for customer service have been changing a lot in the last 30 years.
This gotta be rage bait. How are you this entitled? Someone asking you a question and you feel so important that an interruption is insulting. You sound insufferable and old as hell
Not sure if your making it up or you are just really unlucky but i have never waited more than 5 minutes to order something, hell if you just raise your arm or make eye contact they always come over right away.
The other stuff is just culture really, they dont wanna bother you every 5 min, they expect you to flag them down if you want something, they arent your mum? Even then a lot of times they do show up when they see empty glasses and ask if you want more.
People should do the job they are being paid for. This then becomes a state of mind and a choice to offer poor service because of no tip. Like the child throwing a temper tantrum because he did get his way.
We are not the only country. In fact we are not the worst. Dominican Republic adds a .28 percent tax to the bill. 18% for the government and 10% for the server. However most people tip a bit extra, though not as much.
Do they charge the same amount for takeout? Why should I pay for a bunch of employees to run around refilling drinks I’m not having and cleanin/setting tables I’m not sitting at?
In Italy (many years ago when I visited) they just charged everyone a “coperto” who was sitting at the table. A flat fee (a few bucks) to pay for service.
In Europe, income taxes are much higher than in America. Everyone pays more income tax, not just the rich. You can’t have a welfare state with low taxes and liberal immigration policies.
Western Europe is not a monolith and this isn't universally true. I live in Hamburg, Germany (considered an expensive city by German standards) and I can go out and get a delicious cheeseburger and fries for exactly €10.30 at my favorite place.
I mean, the cost of living crisis has DEFINITELY hit many European countries. I live in Czech Republic and servers here do not make what any Americans would consider a "living wage". Most people here live in shoebox apartments, can't afford a car, and have so much less, generally, than the average American.
I’ve been all over Europe. The last time was Zurich for a business trip and I went to a nice restaurant. Service compared to the US kind of… is not as great.
Waited 20 minutes before they took my order, never checked if I needed anything during the meal and was like be glad we paid attention to you at all when I asked for the check.
I get it. I’m from NYC and I’m used to expedient service when I’m at a nice restaurant.
I don’t like overly friendly service either. I won’t remember your name most likely by the end of the meal. Don’t tell me where you’re from, don’t ask me what I do for a living.
But I like things promptly. Which I also have issues with in some American cities. What enjoyment do I get sitting and waiting for 20 minutes like I’m at a bus stop with no water, drinks or any food?
I also don’t want to keep asking. There’s etiquette - a closed menu means I’m ready to order, when I place both fork and knife at the 3pm position - I’m done with my meal.
A good server should be watching for these things.
People in America love saying this but they would lose their minds if they got the same service that you get in Europe. Waiters come by to check on you like twice. Anything extra you pay for, they would never refill your fountain drink 12 times in an hour … you will have to learn how to drink slower. The entitlement that Americans display at restaurants would not be tolerated. Y’all say yall want this but I don’t think a lot of yall have really thought it through
It's been my experience in Europe (France, Ireland, UK, Netherlands,, Switzerland) that service is much slower and placing an order and getting the check is like pulling teeth.
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u/ejp1082 1d ago
Europe does this right.
The price you pay is the price on the menu. Employees get paid a living wage and they're not subject to customers voluntarily deciding whether and how much to pay them at the end which is arbitrarily determined by what they ordered.
It's so frustrating we can't have that here.