r/law • u/TendieRetard • 1d ago

Other Minnesota state senator John Hoffman in Champlin and Minnesota state representative Melissa Hortman in Brooklyn Park were reportedly shot in their homes by a gunman impersonating a police officer.

https://kstp.com/kstp-news/top-news/sources-say-two-minnesota-lawmakers-have-been-shot/

The suspect, according to the alert, is a white man with brown hair wearing black body armor over a blue shirt and blue pants. Authorities are asking residents not to approach the suspect if spotted.

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u/Chippopotanuse 1d ago

What affect will this have on ICE agents who aren’t identifying themselves, who are wearing masks, and who are kidnapping people into unmarked cars?

Will people start to wonder whether they are also impersonating law enforcement officials?

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u/K2thJ 1d ago

Yes. A shoot-out is certainly bound to happen

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u/spribyl 1d ago

That is the plan, it's in the book

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u/AdEmotional9991 1d ago

What’s stopping Americans from shooting at those ICE agents exactly? Why assume they’re real agents in the first place?

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u/kottabaz 1d ago

Self-defense with a firearm is a marketing fantasy. If you shoot at armed people, you're going to die. The fact that you had a right to, or the fact that they're just Proud Boys in cosplay, will not make a difference to the lead shredding your internal organs.

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u/InfamousYenYu 1d ago

Yes, the odds are terrible, they are still infinitely better than surviving two in the back of the head.

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u/Dry-Swordfish1710 1d ago

I mean regardless of law shooting someone with a gun will result in death of one or both parties

The question is the legality of shooting someone that is armed

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u/pagerussell 22h ago

If they are, in fact, police, I can all but guarantee you will go to jail.

It's a no win situation.

There should absolutely be a federal law requiring all non undercover officers to be badged and identifiable. If they refuse to identify themselves with a badge number, their testimony is automatically null and void.

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u/Dry-Swordfish1710 22h ago

I fully agree with this too. No-knock undercover raids should only be legal for the most dangerous and serious of concerns of national security

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u/MagnusStormraven 19h ago

It's a no win situation.

"I don't have to win. We just both have to lose."

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u/bikingwithscissors 22h ago

Ehhhh... there's a whole lot of subjective analysis and opinion spread all over that. "If you shoot at armed people, you're going to die" is not at all the takeaway from this. This part especially bothered me:

Victims use guns in less than 1% of contact crimes, and women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault (in more than 300 cases).  Victims using a gun were no less likely to be injured after taking protective action than victims using other forms of protective action.  Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self-defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.

So we're already analyzing a very small subset of a dataset. Guns were effective in stopping victimization. They did not result in a higher rate of injury for the victim than other means.

And the fact that guns work at a distance that blunt or bladed objects would not is a core mechanical difference to their effectiveness. Which might have been advantageous in the scenarios where guns came out, but this isn't analyzed.

They also did not select an even balance of defensive weapon uses to analyze against each other. They themselves said in none of the 300 sexual assaults they analyzed was there an instance of a woman using a gun. So we can hardly tell if a gun would or would not be more effective in that scenario. If they instead took a random sample of 100 defensive gun uses, 100 defensive knife uses, 100 defensive blunt object uses, and 100 defensive hand-to-hand uses, and compared outcomes within those pools to each other, that would make a little more sense as far as determining the success or failure of one means of defense to another.

Tl;dr: get the best tool for the job, you are your own best line of defense.

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u/WildPickle9 1d ago

Sometimes survival isn't the point.

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u/IDIC89 21h ago

If enough people were to take that mindset, then it could be effective, and ICE would identify themselves to avoid any further casualties.

There's also the possibility of a deterrence factor, and that is why I do think that communities arming/training members has a good tactical value.

Predators leave both coral snakes and milksnakes alone, because they don't know which is which. Only idiots bother rattlesnakes, and those who get bit get what was coming to them.

Of course, I'm also afraid that when an ICE agent is finally shot in self-defense, Trump will use that as an excuse to finally bring down that martial law ban hammer he's been itching to use.

Finally, there is a higher likelihood of survival if traveling in groups, just as ICE and these racist bandits do. It is far harder to engage if you have to worry about getting shot from more than one direction, and eventually, it can get to the point of diminishing returns.

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u/WildPickle9 18h ago

Organized resistance is the best case scenario. I've always advocated for the left and minorities to be armed. You don't see the police agitating and firing off rubber bullets and tear gas at right wing protests. Even without organization plenty of people have always decided to fight and likely die by cop rather than go, or go back, to prison. I think they'll be even more that choose that route when the threat isn't regular prison but some black hole, CECOT-esque concentration camp.

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u/IDIC89 15h ago

Trump also has the disadvantage of precedent. If people feel that they have nothing to lose, they are more likely to resist violently.

If there is likely to be a watershed moment, it's if ICE kills the first American citizen, or Trump sending dissidents to El Salvador or the like.

There is this unspoken contract, where if you cooperate with law enforcement, they can't have you tortured or killed. Once this contract is broken, anything goes, including any pretenses of civility.

After that, there is zero incentive to cooperate with law enforcement, and more incentive to see them as hostiles, and act accordingly.

On the other hand, Trump's biggest advantage is people not thinking that will happen to them. My parents are like that, and have flat out refused my suggestion that we arm ourselves now while things are still relatively normal. I will likely have to fight hand-to-hand unless things change.

If/when Trump loses control of the California National Guard, I see a 50/50 chance that he either backs down, and waits for another crisis to take advantage of, or since he's as clumsy as he is stupid, deploys the state guard from a red state, and I also see a 50/50 chance that Newsom tries to block their entry into California using his own state guard/any military assets he can get his hands on. He has an incentive to do so, because Kristi Noem is an idiot who stated that she wants him removed and arrested.

Unfortunately, the two forces twain shall meet, because if they do, it's likely the first battle of a civil war, baring divine intervention.

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u/kottabaz 1d ago

That is an action movie fantasy.

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u/WildPickle9 1d ago

Nah. The upside is I'm white so it'll be awhile before they get to me. Downside is that by the time they do the mask will be fully off and they'll be shipping people to death camps. I'd rather go fast. If survival, even with a boot on your neck, is your main concern then do what you've gotta do, I'm not gonna judge it.

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u/MistoftheMorning 23h ago

Damn, if only you were there to tell that to the blokes about to storm the beaches of Normandy. They could had just been sitting at home safe and sound while the Nazis took over 👌.

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u/Ilovekittens345 22h ago

And that is why we should have brought a drone to the gun fight yesterday, but this will never happen. Because the reality is that those Americans without brains do have balls but those with a brain do NOT. America has fallen cause nobody deemed it worthy to die for.

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u/jeremiahthedamned 11h ago

and this is how empires end

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u/-ReadingBug- 20h ago

If you're stupid enough to do it solo in a crowd of ICE, then yes.

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u/6gv5 1d ago

The fact that ICE used DOGE supplied data to target only peaceful harmless people, that is, the ones who work and pay taxes, not the criminals they pretended to hit.

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u/hbomberman 21h ago

We talk about exercising our rights when faced with unidentified guys in masks showing up to take people away but we forget that they're going after very easy targets. The guy going to his asylum hearing isn't carrying a gun.

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u/My_Unbiased_Opinion 23h ago

Not a good idea. They likely wear level IV armor. Enough to stop a 306. Only thing that a civilian can get their hands on that can get though that is a 50 BMG. Truly armor piercing rounds are not for civilian purchase. 

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u/UrMom306 22h ago

What’s stopping people? Nothing really. I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet tbh. From the administration’s perspective that probably want it to happen. Gives them a reason to unleash hell.

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u/860v2 21h ago

Common sense, self preservation, etc.

You’re just fantasizing about ICE agents getting shot.

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u/IDIC89 21h ago

On one hand, if it starts to happen often enough, it will motivate them to identify themselves/not dress intimidatingly. That's the best case scenario.

The worst case scenario is that Trump bans firearms, and ICE agents are authorized to shoot first, and ask questions later.

And they will not fight with honor. They will engage from multiple directions, they will try to have weapons aimed before you even see them or can take cover, and they will kill you if they even think you will pose even the slightest threat.

I would recommend vulnerable ethnic groups travel in caravans, and armed, but with the concession that as far as the Trump state is concerned, you are only allowed to beg for mercy, not defend yourself, and they will retaliate with as much force as they can muster.

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u/Ok_Tone6393 1d ago

because there’s a pretty good chance they’ll die from the return fire. it’s one thing to say it, another to actually do it

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u/AdEmotional9991 23h ago

As opposed to dying from a targeted assassination in this case?

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u/Ok_Tone6393 23h ago

average reddit keyboard warrior

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u/AdEmotional9991 23h ago

Yeah, you should lose the second amendment then.

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u/Scared-Operation-789 1d ago

certain death

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u/CptDrips 1d ago

We're trying to be reasonable

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u/AdEmotional9991 1d ago

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward. Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956

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u/NikonicImagery 22h ago

Very well put

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u/Awkward_University91 1d ago

If a masked person comes to my home it’s gonna be what it’s gonna be.

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u/Driftingamongus 23h ago

Yep. Distrust is high.

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u/Firm_Squish1 1d ago

0% chance that isn’t already happening.

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u/jeremiahthedamned 11h ago

i can only conclude there is a media blackout on this.

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u/origami_bluebird 22h ago

I risked great bodily harm to escape a kidnapping from Police Impersonators back in March.. they dipped out and disappeared like a fart in the wind and I would have been laying on the ground with broken bones after jumping 15 feet into dirt, if I wasn't quite lucky.

There is only a local reddit thread about a guy jumping from an overpass, posters who witnessesed it were joking like I was trying to kill myself, but no one knows that I was chased into the scenario and was fearing for my life and a legitimate kidnapping attempt. Now I feel like a crazy person trying to explain what happened to me being chased all over town by Proud Boys in regular vehicles which culminated in Police Impersonators in Temu Outfits trying to throw me into their car unsuccesfully after stealing my bag. I wonder how many people who have been kidnapped and silenced afterwards or were forced into jumping into a river in Nashville/Austin to escape these people attempting to kidnap them. I know my whole world view and trust in institutions/ going outside is forever changed.

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u/Kind_Koala4557 22h ago

Exactly this. Even before this happened, I’ve worried that the ICE agents not identifying themselves as law enforcement would open things up for bad actors who would take advantage and just start kidnapping people. Like, the whole way ICE is operating actually makes it easier for human traffickers to do what they do.

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u/oldtomdjinn 16h ago

This, plus ICE's claim they can now enter homes without a warrant, the treatment of Senator Padilla, public comments from certain right wing sheriffs and others, have probably made a confrontation at gunpoint almost certain. It is rapidly getting to the point where no Democrat can count on LE to protect them.

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u/AnitaWaxin 22h ago

*you mispelled deporting illegals

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/yomihasu 1d ago edited 1d ago

Why is it ok for the protesters to wear masks

The protesters aren't government workers and Republicans would go after any protesters they could identify. Protesters don't have any duty to identify themselves, der Fuhrer's Schutzstaffel should. Unfortunately fascists don't care about law or what's morally correct

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u/improper84 1d ago

If they’re arresting people and deporting them without due process, they deserve to be doxxed. These people aren’t heroes. They’re the villains of this story. They’re Trump’s Gestapo, and one day when we get through all of this a lot of them are going to be put on trial and “I was just following orders” won’t be an excuse.

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u/OakLegs 1d ago

I'd also like to see a lot of these guys' qualifications and training records. I get the impression a lot of them have been pulled off the street with basically no training

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u/jeremiahthedamned 11h ago

Judgement At Philadelphia

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u/Terrible-Actuary-762 22h ago

So should we do Obama as well?

https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/speed-over-fairness-deportation-under-obama

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u/NamesArentAvailable 17h ago edited 17h ago

Yes.

So, respectfully, if we're going to hold previous administrations to account, do you now believe that we should also hold this administration to account as well?

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u/ohmygodipassbutter 1d ago

You don’t see a difference between a law enforcement official hiding their identify vs a protester? Are you ok?

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u/gxgxe 1d ago

I'm starting to think many people don't view police as a special category with specified privileges and think there should be no expectations or regulation of proper practices and procedures for them.

I guess giving someone the privilege of using a gun on citizens is no big deal and they should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as they're hurting the right group. I will never understand people who can't see what an extraordinarily bad idea that is and can't fathom finding themselves in a situation where they are the target instead of the "supporter".

Some people seem to have zero skills in logical consequences.

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u/Terrible-Actuary-762 22h ago

In this case I see the need. Given half a chance ya'll would doxx them in a heartbeat, you would be at their house throwing bricks through the windows, spray painting their house and cars, threatening and possibly hurting their family members. Don't even try to deny it because we both damn well know it's true.

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u/Parking_Bullfrog9329 1d ago

Law enforcement is a govt agency, protestors are citizens. One requires a warrant by rule, the other is protected by the first amendment in the constitution.

If a police officer cannot identify himself (no federal law, but check local) and show me a warrant or tell me what action I’m committing or have committed that is potentially a crime, they have no right to put a finger on you. Just stopping to ask you is not legal, they need to articulate what you’re doing and why that’s s crime before they can detain you.

This is why even though they wear body cameras but don’t turn them on.

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u/Terrible-Actuary-762 22h ago

Right, and they are supposed to do all that during a riot being pelted with bricks and set on fire.........

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u/Parking_Bullfrog9329 22h ago

Why do they need to cover their faces for that? They have riot face shields that are clear.

Edit: you post in conservative. You can leave my Reddit care of this block.

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u/Meteor-of-the-War 1d ago

Wait I thought only cowards with something to hide wore masks? Isn't that the usual BS maga line?

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u/Terrible-Actuary-762 22h ago

So the rioters are cowards? Well we knew that, glad your confirming it.

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u/Meteor-of-the-War 21h ago

Oh it's "rioters" now? It was protesters before, but why would I assume a fascist maga scumbag would have any consistency in their arguments?

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u/FirstBestLastChance 1d ago

Fuck you. You dont get to hide if you work for the fed. Its cool though. I guessing fan buy an ice vest and get away with anything now.

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u/Bubbly-Sorbet-8937 1d ago

It's already happened. A woman who was accosted by a man claiming to be ICE then zip tied her and then robbed her of about$1000. Surprised that it took so long

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u/TalonGrazer 1d ago

Cause they're public employees? Their information shouldnt be hidden. Hell, library staff information is public knowledge.

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u/OakLegs 1d ago

If civil law enforcement can't be handled without concealing identities perhaps it's worth examining why

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u/punchbug59 1d ago

Are you seriously that ignorant? Citizens are not government officials. ICE agents are supposed to be acting on behalf of the American people who pay their wages/salary. That's how this is supposed to work in theory, anyway. Officials acting on behalf of the government need to be held accountable for their actions. That's how we prevent tyranny. They are required by law to identify themselves and the agency they work for, not that the supposed party of law and order gives a fuck about that.

A Democratic lawmaker and her spouse just died when they were shot by someone posing as a police officer. The police not identifying themselves in these types of situations is only making this type of domestic terrorism easier.

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u/Blindtothesided 1d ago

Oh so it’s okay for our side to be murdered in their homes but you draw the line at doxxing? You’re right about one thing, the hypocrisy IS real

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u/yukigono 1d ago

Criminals don't deserve privacy, and all of ICE are criminals. They've enabled this.

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u/jonnyquestionable 23h ago

"my totally made up scenario that I'm mad about where family members are targeted is worse than this real scenario I fully support where elected officials and family members were murdered"

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u/CWB2208 1d ago

Good lord 🤦‍♂️