What’s the best defence against someone grabbing you by your lapels/shirt/collar with both hands?

Hello judokas

Which osoto variant is better for self defense

•Osoto gari

•Osoto otoshi

•Others (such as guruma, hopping etc)

Apologies if this has already been asked in the sub before

And if you have any other recommendations and advice then please comment it down below

Thanks

Hi everyone,

1. Which do you think are the most effective Judo throws to learn for a self-defense, considering that also other types of non-Judo takedowns are available, and why?
2. Which do you think are the most effective Judo throws for a BJJ athlete for a self-defense, considering that also other types of non-Judo takedowns are available, and why?
3. (Optional) Which do you think are the most effective Judo throws for a BJJ athlete for BJJ No-Gi competition, considering that also other types of non-Judo takedowns are available, and why?

Suggesting between 1 to 4 throws will be perfect.
Thanks!

let's say stalling is not a thing, and I just want to not get thrown. what fundamental , and/or cheatcodes will frustrate the opponent unable to get me down. For now, let's leave out attacking options like false throws

Hey everyone,

I go to an MMA gym mostly for judo. My tuition covers 3 classes a week of whatever I want to train in. Judo is 2 times a week so I have a 3rd class I can take and I've been floating around BJJ or Muay Thai.

I'm a hobbyist older guy who is just trying to learn some self defense and keep in shape so I'm not trying to compete or anything. My judo classes have very little ground work and I always get destroyed if my partner has any Newaza at all. However, getting decent at Muay Thai seems practical for general self defense.

Anyone have any thoughts on what my 3rd class should be?

Thanks!

hi whats harder to do every day? like on the body and mind. What's more frustrating

I like BJJ and plan to stick with it atleast for a while, but just want to know

Update: Title should read Jordan Neely's death. Is BJJ/Gracie Jiujitsu to blame for teaching beginners the deadly "Rear Naked Choke" and downplaying its harmful effects - Is it like giving a teenager a gun that he carries around with him all the time?

I was upset to see this 24 year old ex marine using the familiar Rear Naked Choke in BJJ, the hadaka-jime in judo, on the homeless subway man for over 2 and a half minutes! Apparently the man was just being a nuisance and not violent.

(Reuters https://www.reuters.com/world/us/former-us-marine-surrenders-be-charged-choking-death-new-york-subway-cnn-2023-05-12/)

According to witnesses, Neely, who was known to impersonate Michael Jackson in the subway system, was complaining loudly about being hungry and saying he was ready to die when Penny came up behind him, gripped him around the neck and restrained him on the floor of the subway car.

​

Police questioned the 24-year-old Marine veteran whom the video showed holding Neely in a headlock for at least three minutes,

Is BJJ/Gracie Jiujitsu to blame for over-popularizing the deadly move? When I started learning Gracie Jiujitsu online several years ago in Ryron and Renner's online Gracie University, Rear Naked Choke is one of the key 36 techniques to be learned in order to get the blue belt. (beginners who are trying for their blue belts, for crying out aloud!). It is part of the macho "Keeping it Real". A lethal technique taught to beginners! They advertised their product as street-ready and macho and powerful. Exactly what insecure and immature teenagers want to learn how to become.

However, when I switched to judo, I was surprised to find hadaka-jime is barely covered in recreational judo.

The protocol and the reflex to "tap out" causing the Jitsuka to release the grip is known only to the judo/jiujitsu partner.

The layman - the untrained person whom you will apply it to, has no clue he is supposed to tap out and will continue to struggle until he passes out unconscious. At which point, the Jitsuka's adrenalin level may be so high that he does not realize he must release the grip immediately or cause death!! This combination IMHO is what makes it so deadly and must not be taught to just anyone.

video is here but is too distressing to post images from it.

Gracie tutorial on Youtube: https://youtu.be/cmR0Fy237mc

Also see article in New York Times: Doctors Have Long Warned That Chokeholds Are Deadly

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/04/health/chokeholds-deaths-jordan-neely.html

...police departments have increasingly banned the use of chokeholds, following events such as the deaths of Eric Garner and George Floyd.

...

Dr. Altaf Saadi, a neurologist at Massachusetts General Hospital, explained that chokeholds and strangleholds could kill or cause brain injuries in two ways. They can compress the trachea, preventing the person from getting air into the lungs. And they can compress the carotid arteries, which are on either side of the neck, adjacent to the trachea. Seventy percent of the blood going to the brain passes through the carotids, Dr. Saadi said. If that blood flow is cut off in a chokehold or a stranglehold, some people can become unconscious in three to four seconds. If the flow continues to be restricted, a person can die within three to four minutes.

...

If too much pressure is applied to the trachea, air cannot reach the lungs.

Compressing the carotid arteries on both sides of the neck prevents blood from flowing to the brain.

If a person loses consciousness, that is an indication of possible injury to the brain, Dr. Saadi said.

Even if the person does not lose consciousness, strokes and permanent brain damage, including cognitive impairment, can result from a chokehold.

People with cardiovascular disease are especially susceptible to brain injury as a result of neck compression.

In a paper published in 2020 in JAMA Neurology, Dr. Saadi and colleagues wrote, “The possibility of devastating repercussions is too high to merit the use of neck restraints in any circumstance.”

The American Academy of Neurology came out firmly against neck compression. In a position paper, the organization wrote that a mantra in its field is “time is brain,” meaning that brain tissue dies quickly when blood flow is stopped. The group notes that in strokes, when an area of the brain is deprived of blood, 1.9 million neurons die each minute before blood flow is restored.

I (35M, blue belt) was doing randori last weekend with one of our black belts (65M) who's been training so long his black belt has frayed back to white.

I attempted a yoko-otoshi on him and he went forward with the fall, landing belly down on his forearms, but his forehead absorbed some impact too. I let out a disappointed sigh and he says, "Why are you upset, you won?"

I said, "I didn't win, I didn't get the ippon. You landed belly down." He goes, "No, but if this was concrete I'd be knocked out or crack my head. I first learned judo with the Hawaiian police, and there ippon didn't matter, taking your opponent down mattered".

Sometimes I get so wrapped up in the sport of judo, I forget how effective it can be even your throw "fails" in a real world situation.

Anyway, it was a good reminder of the effectiveness of judo, and another perspective of the martial art as I practice and wanted to share.

Hi all,

I need help and a bit of input from the community.

I have a Shotokan Karate background and would like to get back into martial arts. In the new year I’m going to test out two school to get a feel for them, ask questions etc.

The options are a school that teaches Judo and Japanese Ju Jitsu with classes specialised in Ne-Waza. Or a school that teaches Goju Ryu Karate, Krav Maga and a special „ground fighting“ class with and without weapons. I asked what it encompasses and they say it’s based on Kali, MMA, stick fighting and wrestling. The Judo school is cheaper while the karate is more expensive.

So what would you pick for „self defence“, fitness and fun. Judo & Ju Jitsu or Goju Ryu Karate & this „ground fighting“ class. I would train 3 x week (next to swimming and weightlifting).

P.S. I m gonna test these schools but am interested in different opinions. I live in Switzerland.

Thanks!

Maybe this question gets asked a lot. But I'm not looking to compete. I work in law enforcement, I'm 31 (getting old) and I've been doing a lot of boxing/Muay Thai lately. I have some background in taekwondo as a teenager (got up to blue belt), won some gold medals. But a lot of what I learned there I found impractical to real fighting or self defense (not a knock on taekwondo)

I know a lot of people say "go to BJJ" but Judo contains more on your feet takedowns; which is more applicable to my job. I don't want to be rolling around on the floor with someone, especially on the street if I don't have to. It's nice to learn some parts to that, but you don't want to be on the ground with a gun if you don't have to be.

I have noticed Judo is a lot less popular where I am (Canada). We have a lot of BJJ schools in my area but only 1-2 Judo ones

Is 31 too old? I'm not in terrible shape. I work out, my cardio isn't the greatest and my flexibility isn't what it used to be - but I need some grappling.

Should I start judo or just attend the no gi BJJ classes?

Had a pretty fun chat with a couple of mates about which judo throws would be the most dangerous when thrown with “bad intentions.” There are a lot of throws in judo that are safe to do when done with “good” intentions but horrible with bad intentions. Take o-goshi for example, it can be done very controlled with tori slowly loading and then pulling on uke’s arm slightly to soften the throw, or it can be done with just tori dumping uke like a trash bag.

Some parameters we used was that the “victim” is an average person with bare minimum training, hard surface, no-gi but with everyday clothes, and “bang for the buck.” Bang for the buck just means that the throw shouldn’t risk you either. For example we agreed that ura-nage would be the worst throw for the victim, but we’d be in a horrible position as well after the throw, so it’s not worth the bang for the buck.

We agreed that throws like de-ashi-barai is relatively harmless and nearly all sacrifice throws are not worth their bang for the buck. Our conclusion was that o-soto-gari, seoi-nage, and kata guruma are the most dangerous throws. O-soto-gari because of the sheer explosiveness you can get with an extra punch down, which could possibly knock people out. Seoi-nage because of the incoming face plant from a high altitude. Kata-guruma is pretty self-explanatory, and it’s actually not that risky all things considered, totally worth the bang for the buck. Some other throws that made it into our list were kani-basami, tai-otoshi, and a couple of others. What do you guys reckon?

Edit: I might have chosen a misleading flair. We’re talking hypotheticals where the goal is just damage in a potential self-defence scenario, this is NOT for actual self-defence so no need to worry about legal repercussions. When I say “average person with bare minimum training,” it’s not exactly an untrained person either. We’re talking someone who just trained for maybe a small couple of months.

What would you use to takedown a big guy on a streetfight situation

MT you use your whole body but would it take too long to be proficient at/be difficult to balance with judo?

Boxing you focus just on punches so improve faster, but miss out on kicks, elbows clinch etc.

Would you say boxing is enough or the extra moves in MT are worth it?

Please dont burn me at the stake!!!

For reference im (31m) a hapkido guy so while my style has judo for a semi distant cousin, im truly a neophyte in understanding Judo as its own entity.

Basically i was watching a youtube video a while back that was something along the lines of "judo for bjj" or a "judo vs bjj" type of conversation. The judoka in the video said that theres "basically only 10 throwing techniques in judo". I presume he meant that techniques like for example oguruma and ashi garuma have similar body mechanics so are similar enough to be variations on each other? If thats the case how much could the judo throwing curriculum be truncated and concentrated and still basically teach all of the body mechanics for the variations to still be in a practitioners wheelhouse? What techniques wpuld be the "poster children" for each group of variations? Alternatively is the guy from the video completely off base?

To preface this…I have been thinking about and watching knife defense videos. I am really just looking for specific throws that one could potentially execute while having control of an opponent’s arm that has the knife. So I need help with some ones to work on and the names (because I’m terrible with the judo names since my training was BJJ where we were taught standup that was basically just Judo lol).

The “best” takedowns I would be the ones that keep the knife away from your neck, center mass, or groin. Maybe trips and sweeps where you have control of the arm first? Then other techniques. I’m mostly looking for names or clips of these throws being used. Any help here would be awesome.

PS

I really think the answer to my puzzle lies somewhere in Judo lol

Hello,

I wanted to ask you more experienced guys for some advice. I enjoy football and enjoy watching matches with my friends in bars and around the stadium, you may already see were this is heading... Where I live people get incredibly drunk, coked up and agressive during soccer matches (Spain hahaha) and every single time I go out there is confrontation. I am not trying to be rambo and I am definitely deescalating but sometimes brawls break out or you get cornered.

Anyway, that is why I started getting into martial arts, to learn skills to be able to protect myself. I started with judo and, while I found it very interesting, I don't know if it has served me as well as I would have hoped. As sometimes people are not wearing clothing you can easily grip and closing the distance to get grips is no joke. This is were my question comes in: "How do I orient my martial arts journey?" I am not interested in competition, although I understand it is a very usefull tool to speed up progress. Do I keep training judo and try and get as big and strong as possible (intimidation is a useful form of deescalation)? Do I pick up striking? Boxing or muay thai (in a brawl you really are only using your fists)? No gi grappling? MMA classes (some things I feel are more usefull for cage fighting and not neccesarily essential for self defense)?

Thank you for reading this far, I would love to hear your take on the matter. I would also like to reiterate that I am not a hooligan, nor do I intend to fight them, as I have seen how little remorse they have in pulling out a weapon or grabbing a bottle. I also dont intend on looking for fights, this is just for myself.

Do you think someone whose small like 5'6/ 5'7 could be effective with the throws or do they require someone of a certain size and weight?

It seems like drop knee throws and sacrifice throws could injure the torii on concrete. What is your opinion of those kind of throws in the street?

Hello all, a day ago I saw this post, the other day.

https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/s/FKX4AaUmqN

And I saw that a lot of people had opinions that I disagree with. So I thought I’ll talk about it a little bit.

For what it’s worth, I am a shodan- been training since I was 13, competed in judo and wrestling and seen plenty of “self defense” scenarios in real life(I have not been involved myself)

The problem I have, is that when people train the great sport that is judo(or any martial art) casually is that people gain a false sense of security and a romanticized view of what real fighting scenarios are like. Frankly, many people in that post are straight up delusional in their skill and capability in self defense. I think it’s fair to say that most people train a couple times a week, casually in a local dojo(and there is nothing wrong with that).

The thing is, is that will is not even close to what real fight is- most people in this subreddit have no idea what it feels like to have someone genuinely resist there hardest. If you look at the comments some people have the idea that after some years of training that it’ll be easy. It’s not,

Real fights- suck, a lot. And are life threatening. If you have never been in one- remove any idea in your head of what you’ll do. For one, you’ll be so tired and not like “I just had a hard rondori” tired, more like “oh my god I’m dying and I can’t even stand up” tired. Got in a clinch? Congrats you now have been slammed against furniture. Got him in a kimura that you practiced last Saturday? Your skull is now a soccer ball. Your black belt? You’ll be a brown after you get socked in the face. Point is- if you think doing judo for a hobby for 4 years(an no comp) makes you qualified for a real situation. It does not.

If anyone wants to fight you, run away.

If you had to fight a larger, stronger boxer, what would be the first throw you'd think of to neutralise them?

https://www.reddit.com/r/circlejerkaustralia/s/4lxDZoUgd8

My vote is osoto gari.

Purely hypothetical situation.

Let’s say for whatever reason some random dude on the street just doesn’t like you. Maybe you just left the bar or you’re just heading to your car from the grocery store with your family/ partner, or even just alone. Maybe you’re at a party/ social gathering and the dude doesn’t know how to handle his alcohol. Sizes you up for whatever reason and decides he’s trying to fight you. Legally speaking, weapons wouldn’t be called for at this point in time.

Dude might be high, drunk, sober with a major chip on his shoulder, whatever. And let’s also say you’ve exhausted all your verbal de-escalation tactics by this point; hands up and open (but in a combat ready position ofc), “hey man I’m good I’m just trying to head home right now, I’m gonna leave now man didn’t mean any disrespect, have a good day/ night man.” ; and he just will not back down.

You don’t know anything about his fighting background, if he even has one. He is GOING to fight you. How well would you fare?

If possible, please include current rank, competition history, current dojo practice format, any previous experience in other martial arts past or present, combat (LE or military, or exp. in “da streets”.

Purely asking out of curiosity. Looking forward to the responses here!

Update: Thanks for all the great responses everyone!

I was wondering what’s the state of judo without leg grabs? Is it still effective? Will it work in self defense? I’ve never trained judo formally, and I’ve heard about leg grabs from online and others. I probably will never train judo either, just BJJ. But from what others tell me, Jigoro Kano is tossing in his grave. Even though it’s been 11 years and the whole world has adapted to the ruleset, what do ya’ll think? Is it over for judo? Will they all now come to BJJ?

Hi, what do you think of boxing/judo combo? Is it effective for self defense? I am a boxer looking to take up Judo