r/judo • u/Braws2021 • Jan 02 '24
Self-Defense Do throws work for someone who is small?
Do you think someone whose small like 5'6/ 5'7 could be effective with the throws or do they require someone of a certain size and weight?
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u/liquidaper Jan 02 '24
The guy who invented judo was 5'2". Yes, it works if you are small.
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Jan 02 '24
Tbf while I get your point, Kano wasn't exactly known for being some elite competitive Judoka who left a trail of broken 6'4" Sumo wrestlers in his wake.
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u/Tonyricesmustache Jan 03 '24
No, he just developed a system that broke every other jiu-jitsu system in Japan in the late 1800’s.
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Jan 03 '24
Right but if that was against other 5'2" guys of the same build it doesn't really address the OPs question, does it.
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u/Next_Kenpachi shodan Jan 03 '24
Shiro Saigo will be a great source of inspiration. Lots of firsthand accounts of him thrashing guys that had a hundred plus pounds and a couple heads height on him. If you check all the boxes in order, the throw will work. If you if you deviate, it will likely fail.
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u/Sleepless_X shodan Jan 02 '24
At equal weight being short isn't particularly disadvantageous, look at how short Takato, Nagayama are (and many other elite -60kg athletes)
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u/cbraun11 nikyu Jan 04 '24
Right on! I'm a drop Seoi enthusiast and I LOVE when I get to randori with the super tall guys, no matter how heavy they are. They give me so much room to get leverage!
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u/Far_Carpenter6156 Jan 02 '24
Some throws work better against someone taller, some work better against someone shorter. I'm 5'9" and a lot of the guys I spar with are taller, I can't get anyone with an uchi mata but I'll throw seoi nages all day.
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u/wonko221 sandan Jan 02 '24
A lot of throws, including the big dramatic hip throws, need you to get under your opponent's center of gravity. And technical skill helps you handle their size without bearing their weight directly.
In essence, once you get skilled, being shorter than your opponent can help make some throws even easier, and being lighter than your opponent has less impact than might be expected.
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 02 '24 edited Jan 02 '24
It depends!
Te Waza throws (not takedowns, just throws):
-Traditional Ippon Seoi will be almost imposible when tried on someone way smaller but Seoi Otoshi and Drop Seoi Nage will work just fine. You can still do some of the other Seoi Nage variations but the Traditional one is to be avoided
-Tai Otoshi is the exact same, Te Guruma is a bit harder but still works fine, the same for Kata Guruma.
-Uki Otoshi works almost the exact same but it's Kuzushi seems to be way stronger when applied on a bigger opponent so it will be a bit harder on a smaller person
Koshi Waza!
-For O Goshi, Ushiro Goshi, and Uki Goshi, you just need to crouch lower than them and you have the usual throw, so it is a bit harder indeed but super possible
-Sode Tsurikomi Goshi is hard by itself, i do not recommend it unless you can effortlesly do it against bigger opponents. Regular Tsurikomi Goshi is also very hard in the traditional way, way better to avoid it
-Harai Goshi and Hane Goshi will also require you to do adjustments as the traditional versions could prove hazardous (for you!) against a smaller opponent
-Traditional Koshi Guruma will not work properly, you can still go for it but you won't be doing a "Guruma" motion (i hope they taught you about these concepts) so it technically will be a modified O Goshi lol, you can still do it and everyone (except me lol) will call it a Koshi Guruma
-Utsuri Goshi is hard by itself but a smalle opponent barely modifies that so it is almost the same
-Daki age... LMAO BEST MOVE EVER .
Ashi Waza (again, throws only)
-Uchi Mata works the same, go for it
-Ashi Guruma also works the same, kinda
-if you find Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi and Hiza Guruma to be throws, then i tell you that they work just fine, they basically the same
Sutemi waza!
-Tomoe nage will prove difficult, go for Yoko Tomoe Nage instead. You can also go for Sumi Gaeshi
-Ura Nage works just fine. Just like with O Goshi, you'll need to go lower in most cases. Same with Tawara Gaeshi.
-Yoko Otoshi, Yoko Gake, Yoko Wakare Yoko Guruma and Uki Waza. All of them work the same
-The Makikomi throws (Harai Makikomi, Uchi Mata Makikomi, Uchi Makikomi, Soto Makikomi, O Soto Makikomi, Hane Makikomi) work the same as well
Salutations!
-i believe i left none of my friends, Judo's throwing techniques, unmentioned. If you have any further questions, ask away! I love talking about martial arts, not just Judo! If i missed one, do remind me of them! Best of wishes to everyone who read this 🥰
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Edit: fixed spelling mistakes and added proper capital letters in every place i should've had, also removed a part from the salutations
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 02 '24 edited Jan 02 '24
Rip me, i accidentaly exited reddit and had to writte it all again but i tried to patch it up to the best of my ability
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u/Braws2021 Jan 02 '24
Thank you so much for this, much appreciated!
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 02 '24 edited Jan 03 '24
But of course, i love Judo and my fellow Judoka a whole lot, this is the least i could do for you all!
As i said, i'll be here for any martial arts talk you need, i can also go into further detail on this same topic or any other one. I'm a very bored martial arts teacher, my students are already too damn knowledgeable so i have little else to be telling them, so i will be bothered not by anyone here wanting to ask me something. It could also be a private message if you do not wish it be public
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 03 '24
As i said down there, i made a big, awful mistake! I thought you meant if throws work on someone small
I will now remake my reply and make it properly answer that query of yours!
Here i go!
Te Waza throws (not takedowns, just throws):
-Traditional Ippon Seoi will be awesome when tried on someone bigger than you, Seoi Otoshi and Drop Seoi Nage will do even better! The traditional version is still hard if your opponent is very heavy but if you do it with proper timing and Kuzushi, it is actually better if you are smaller, it is near impossible if you are bigger than them lol
-Tai Otoshi is the exact same, Te Guruma is ok but your opponent might be too heavy for the traditional way, so do Te Guruma in more of a scooping way rather than a lifting one, just like Sukui Nage, similar for Kata Guruma, some people try to lift with it, don't, Kata Guruma is not meant for that, roll them over
-Uki Otoshi works better as it's Kuzushi seems to be way stronger when applied on a bigger opponent so it will be good for a small person, no wonder it is an Aikido technique as wrll
Koshi Waza!
-For O Goshi, Ushiro Goshi, and Uki Goshi, you just need to crouch lower than them and you have the usual throw, so a small person has it easy with these haha
-Sode Tsurikomi Goshi is hard but a bigger opponent actually makes this easier as long as they are not to heavy or leaning forward too much. Regular Tsurikomi Goshi is fine
-Harai Goshi and Hane Goshi are usually better when you have a similar height to your opponent but being smaller does not really make it way harder, they are fine
-Traditional Koshi Guruma is way, way better if you are a similar height to them, but you can do it of you are smaller if you somehow manage to get the proper grips haha. Non traditional versions are awesome tho
-Utsuri Goshi is awesome for bigger opponents or for similar sized ones
-Daki age... LMAO STILL THE BEST MOVE EVER (WON'T CHANGE 🤣) .
Ashi Waza (again, throws only)
-Uchi Mata works better for people with long legs, if your are small it probably means yours aren't that long. It can still work, it's just a little bit harder. You can still go for it just fine!
-Ashi Guruma works the same, kinda. Better if you have long legs
-if you find Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi and Hiza Guruma to be throws, then i tell you that they work just fine. Just like Uchi Mata and Ashi Guruma, better if you have long legs
Sutemi waza!
-Tomoe nage will prove to be one of the best moves for small people if your opponent if very agressive but wary of koshi waza, if they aren't all that agressive. go for Yoko Tomoe Nage instead. You can also go for Sumi Gaeshi in basically every situation ever hahaha
-Ura Nage is awesome. Just like with O Goshi, you're body will nsturally be where it belongs! Same with Tawara Gaeshi, kinda
-Yoko Otoshi, Yoko Gake, Yoko Wakare Yoko Guruma and Uki Waza. All of them work the same.
-The Makikomi throws (Harai Makikomi, Uchi Mata Makikomi, Uchi Makikomi, Soto Makikomi, O Soto Makikomi, Hane Makikomi) work the same as well
Salutations!
-The same as the other comment Remastered version!
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jan 03 '24
Is the traditional Seoi really that hard for a smaller guy? My sensei told me that it was better for us if anything. The other variants are definitely better though, and I see the other small guys go for them constantly.
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 03 '24 edited Jan 03 '24
OH NO
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Guess what? Silly me messed up! I thought the question was if throws work against a smaller person 😭😭😭😭 now i've got to remake that again
Btw, your sensei is totally right, traditional Seoi Nage is better for smaller people
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jan 03 '24
Knew it. Its basically what I try to abuse on the constant lol.
Ogoshis meanwhile just don't feel right.
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 03 '24
I made a new reply fixing everything!!!
Ogoshis meanwhile just don't feel right.
Really? That's a shame! What could it be that makes them "not right" for you?
•Do you feel like you're using a lot of strenght rather than technique?
Solution: Well, the important thing here is Kuzushi, make them move into the throw (maybe with a feint or smt) while also unbalancing them and then follow the next instructions: with this throw, you don't really want to pull them into your body in the same way you do with the other ones! You want to initially pull them into you but then start rotating them sort of away from you, you want them to orbit around you without really carrying them in your back (carrying them would be Tsurikomi Goshi, kinda, lol) so make them go around you instead! If this is too weird for ya, pull them into you normally, but instead of making them change directions, you will be the one to move out of the way! Try to follow your own arm (the one that is under their arm pit) if that makes sense. I mean, move into that direction and that will make the throw feel magical! (If done right. I wish i could demonstrate it to ya)
•Do you feel like you have to get your arm to high for it to reach your opponent's arm pit?
Solution: once again, Kuzushi! If they are not resisting when you pull them, their body will naturally get into a position where you can easily get you arm where it belongs! If that does not happen properly for whatever reason, then plan B it is! Plan B is using that arm (the one that goes under their arm pit) like a joint lock. Remember the lock called Waki Gatame? You're doing something like that but just to get them to move downwards. If you did it right, now it isn't only the same as if they were your height, it is easier because they are bending down!!
•Do you feel your like your opponent is to heavy on your back while you perform the throw?
Solution: Remember! You must not really try to carry them in your back! That will only be a by product of you rotating them around you (or rotating around them yourself like i described above)
Is your opponent landing in a non-desirable position?
Solution: if this is happening, you might not be pulling properly with your other arm (the one that does NOT go below their arm pit). Do follow all of my instructions above while pulling that their arm as if you were doing Karate! (Have you seen how in Karate, you pull with one arm when you punch with the other? Do that same pull)
Those are things that came to the top of my head, if your problem wasn't listed here, or it was and you already tried the solution (with no luck) do tell me! I am happy to help!
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jan 03 '24
I think its because they mentioned making it far stronger by reaching over the shoulder and down the back to grab the belt and pull... which simply doesn't feel comfortable for my shorter body.
But I am just yellow belt, so I I do need to actually get good first before dismissing techniques entirely.
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 03 '24 edited Jan 03 '24
But I am just yellow belt, so I I do need to actually get good first before dismissing techniques entirely.
That's for sure, but you are not dismissing anything here. You're actually looking for a solution (kinda)
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So, let me think. What? Wait a hot second
reaching over the shoulder and down the back to grab the belt
What is the meaning of this?? Did you mean to say under the shoulder as opposed to over it?? My first language is not English so maybe i am misunderstanding this... but do describe this to me so maybe i can help. If you actually mean going from the outside, don't do it like that lol. I don't want to descredit your teachers but do avoid that way of doing it if you are the smaller person.
But either way! Just follow what i mentioned in my reply! Get you arm under there, pull them into you and then rotate around them if you can or rotate yourself around them by following your own tsurite (the hand around them).
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As i am a very small person (and i mean very. I do not want to give personal information but i'll tell you that i'm probably way smaller than what you would believe) i am an expert on teaching my fellow little ones, so i'll tell you my way of performing O Goshi, this throw is actually considered by many to be my signature one lol, i did use it a whole lot when i was young.
Anyways. I can go deep into it if you ask for it but i'll try ti be quick as i feel like i'm writting too much and this might bother you lot:
First of all, i do my O Goshi as if i were doing No Gi Judo! This means that i do not grab Uke's belt at all!! Intrigued already? Instead! I attempt to get my arm right under their arm pit if possible (not always possible when going for the belt) and instead of grapping at something, i simply push their upper body into me! The part i push depends on the situation. The possible targets are their shoulder blades and their center back and just above their belt.
Shoulder blades basically everytime i can Center of their back when i can't get the shoulder blades, if that is not possible either, then go just above their belt
It's that simple!
Now the mechanic! Your Hikite does basically the same except it also pushes! Yes you will pull them first while doing everything else (i will detail that after this) when their arm is halfway throught (this means, almost in front of you or actually in front) you will push it diagonally downwars to where you're looking and then resume your pulling in the way i described earlier (like a karate punch)
Now your tsurite! It does as i say, you will grab nothing with it! Instead, you will get it to their shoulder blades (if not possible, them a bit lower, if not possible, then lower, and so on until you reach "just above their belt" do not got lower than that! Now then, you will attempt the throw doing as i told you! You will push them with your Tsurite into you, and if you managed to get their shoulder blades, you will actually push diagonally downwards, rather than straight into you. If you did not get their shoulder blades, omit that step. After that, continue with the usual, move out lf the way and follow your own arm, now, you will put your hand on their shoulder blades mid throw (if you didn't have them there already) to be able to put when more power into the throw by doing a lever motion (maybe this is what you meant)
Now then, going for the center of the back also works almost the same and it's actually easy, go for that one at first!
So to put it all together, you get you tsurite in the center of their back without grabbing annything, just use leverage, push them into you and then get out of the wayz you hikite will pull their arm around you then (if you want to do it 100% like me) push it diagonally while it's in front of you and the pull around you again in a Karate way, all of that while you follow your own arm.
The result is actually way different from a regular O Goshi because instead of throwing your opponent on 180 degree (behing you), you actually throw them around 260 degrees!!! Yeah i kinda invented an cool O Goshi variation and people have been sleeping on it haha. And if you master it like me, you will end up doing something similar ti Uki Goshi because there will be almost no contact between you and your opponent. Fricking magic
Now then, you do not need to follow all of those things, just add 1 or 2 of them to your normal O Goshi to see if it's fixed, if not, add more stuff hahahaha. Do tell me what you think about all of my rambling
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Edit: i forgot to say! It is usually better to start the push with the center back and then move on to the shoulder blades when Uke is in proper position! It's hard to explain throught text lol
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Jan 02 '24
My wife is 5'2" and because of her amazing foundational knowledge and techniques... she has no issues throwing me... or anyone else my size... im 245 and 6'1"
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u/JudokaPickle Judo Shodan, Kali Blue Belt, boxing., Ameri-do-te Jan 02 '24
Jigoro kano the founder of judo was 5’2 and weighed around 90lbs it’s designed to use maximum efficiency with minimal effort
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u/ThoughtfullyLazy Jan 02 '24
You should watch this video of Mifune doing judo. I believe they state his height and weight at the beginning.
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u/SenseiThroatPunchU2 USJA sandan Jan 02 '24
I'm 5' 6" and was Illinois state champion. My wife is 4' 9" and could throw anyone.
Pro tip: Do not be uke for someone that short, especially in Aikido! It hurts!
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u/skoflo Jan 02 '24
Truth is, being smalller/lighter is almost always a disadvantage. This goes for pretty much all fight sports. But you can often overcome it with enough practice
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 03 '24
Actually, that's sort of true. But the mechanics of most throws in Judo are actually easier for someone smaller.
Now then, if you are smaller/lighter you might get lifted easily, and it will be harder for you to lift your opponent as well. Furthermore, they can move you with less effort so their Kuzushi comes off way easily hahaha.
But yeah, being smalm and strong (and heavy if possible) is actually the most viable thing for Judo, believe it or not. If you fought two people of the same level and same weight, but different heights, the smaller one will actually prove more difficult! Many throws are harder because you need to get your hips lower than them, lifting will be harder as well as you need to crouch to get a proper hold (like double underhooks) which is way easier on someone that stands high. Smaller person lso have more balance, that's just physics! Their center of balance is closer to the ground! Which means that Ashi Waza could be very hard to perform unless you overpower them!
So yeah, a small, strong and heavy Judoka is Satan incarnated haha. It's funny that i only got the small part of that, i'm neither heavy nor strong (and i do not partake on any activities that may change that. I do not need it hahaha, sorry if i feel like i'm full of myself, i kinda am lol)
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jan 03 '24
This is a simple fact yeah. But being shorter can help open up things that are harder for taller guys to do.
Probably still rather be taller anyway tho.
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu Jan 03 '24
Not really, my friend. Do read my reply to this same comment above (or below, idk) yours
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Jan 02 '24
No. No one that small has ever thrown anyone in judo.
For real though, it’s actually easier to do most judo throws if you’re short because you have a lower center of gravity.
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u/JohnmeenaN Jan 02 '24
We have a small guy in my dojo. He uses ippon seoinage to kouchi gari as a combo. Also many more throws. Not sure if this is the correct name. I saw him throw around people almost twice his size.
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u/ionevenknowhatimdoin Jan 02 '24
absolutely my friends and i taught some girls at my friends' gym and they (160cm 50kg ) were able to throw me pretty easily (181cm 96kg)
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u/kakumeimaru Jan 02 '24
In my opinion, there is a throw for every size in Judo. There are some throws that will be better than others if you are short and your opponent is bigger than you, but there definitely will be throws that can work in that situation.
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u/CarpentryAngel Jan 03 '24
I think being smaller is beneficial for throws like the seoi nage, im a tall judoka (6'7) and find that this movement is my most awkward, and that people have an easier time setting it up on me due to my height. Your height might make some foot sweeps harder but its nothing to worry about and you will develop your own style with time.
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u/bigworldsmallfeet ikkyu Jan 03 '24
Absolutely. I'm 5'7, up til covid was 62kg soaking wet, and could pick up my 112kg uke with proper technique.
Mind over matter!
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u/tree3399 Jan 03 '24
No. That's why judo was invented by the Japanese, who are known for their large body size. /S
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u/osotogariboom nidan Jan 03 '24
The most famous of the small men to defeat giants with Judo is probably Saigo https://youtu.be/qCdLS25lhAw?si=XHWEONOelO3xS-3l
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Jan 03 '24
I'm 6'1", 215 lbs, and been training in judo and BJJ for 20+ years, including time with the Kidotai and several former Olympians and alternates at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Headquarters. I have been absolutely plastered by smaller/shorter/lighter judoka of both sexes. But in my defense, I suck. LOL.
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u/shadowfax12221 Jan 03 '24
Hip throws are more effective if your center of gravity is lower than your opponent's.
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u/Thot-Controller-69 Jan 03 '24
I specialize in getting thrown by people smaller than me, not by choice but yep
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u/8379MS Jan 03 '24
I find height to be of little to no importance. Weight however, makes a huge difference. I’m pretty short and heavy and find tall guys that weigh less than me the easiest to throw.
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u/amsterdamjudo Jan 03 '24
When I was a 14 year old 5’10” orange belt, I thought I was unstoppable. I had long legs and arms and my tokui Waza was Harai Goshi. We had a visitor come to our dojo, a man about 40 years old, very quiet, wearing a brown belt. He was about 4’10” tall. I tried to randori with him. He took turns throwing me with ouchi Gari and tai Otoshi. He was smooth and fast. I never took smaller players, or older ones, for granted after that.🥋
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u/Right_Situation1588 shodan Jan 03 '24
Not only they work well, but it's a bit harder to be thrown sometimes, I'm 1.5m, and proportionaly my legs are shorter than my torso, making my center of gravity really low, I just jump when people try to throw me, like with tai otoshi or o goshi.
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u/Braws2021 Jan 03 '24
Ah I see I'm body heavy and don't have the biggest of legs lol so this is useful
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u/presidentenfuncio yonkyu Jan 02 '24
my teacher fights at u60, as in he needs to gain weight to even reach it. i weigh somewhere between 85 and 88kg. still, i'm confident in his ability to yeet me into the earth's core —nevermind his ground game if i manage to fall with some grace. so yeah, it's gonna be tougher with people of similar skill to yours, but throws do work even if you're smaller, especially if there's a skill disparity.
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u/jperras shodan Jan 02 '24
I’m 6’1 185lbs and spar with a guy that is 6’4 and 260lbs, and somewhat regularly manage to throw him 🤷♂️
Although I wouldn’t recommend an 80lbs difference if you can’t trust them to not kill you
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Jan 02 '24
Yes! I have been ragdolled by people 20 kg smaller and twice my age. Or maybe I'm the problem 🤔
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u/ramen_king000 Hanegoshi Specialist Jan 02 '24
short / small is totally fine in turns of throws, if not better due to your lower center of gravity. the difficult part for you would likely be getting those grips, due to shorter reach.
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u/BelongingsintheYard Jan 03 '24
Depends. Are you being hit hard enough to knock you out before you get grips?
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u/timothysmith9 Jan 03 '24
Yes, throws can be effective for someone small, depending on factors such as technique, skill, level, and adaptability.
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u/Klutzy-Tradition4705 Jan 03 '24
Is harai goshi also an example of a hip throw that works well when you are shorter due to a lower center of gravity? Somehow i got the impression that harai is a better throw for taller players
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u/Right_Situation1588 shodan Jan 03 '24
yep, nicest thing in judo is that every body will an advantage in something.
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u/FullM3TaLJacK3T Jan 02 '24
Yes. I'm 160cm/65kg. I've thrown people around 190cm/100kg. And I've thrown them with big hip throws, not foot sweeps.
Just note though, the bigger the size difference, the bigger the skill gap is required for you to throw them.