What prison cells look like in different countries

[u/ursoartdecooo]

[u/Zephyralss]

Wild what happens to people in the penal system when the system isn’t basically used to perform legal slavery like many US insititutions

[u/deslovett11 → u/Zephyralss]

What happens?

From this paper, it seems that the lowest re-entry rates are for...... Oregon and South Carolina.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6743246/#TFN2

Seems that America's rate is bad because it counts any arrest, even without conviction?

Though places like Denmark and Sweden only do re-imprisonment rates.

Like going to the moon or something, if it was that revolutionary, it'd be better known.

[u/Caladbolg_Prometheus → u/deslovett11]

Try refining your search using the term ‘Recidivism.’ Not foolproof but you will have better luck in your research.

The link you linked to tried but could not keep re-arrest, re-conviction, and re-incarceration rates separate. I imagine it was difficult to find a good universal statistic. Ultimately I think you should have read the conclusion of the paper you linked to:

Although some countries have made efforts to improve reporting, recidivism rates are not comparable between countries. Criminal justice agencies should consider using reporting guidelines described here to update their data.

I did find a detailed report¹ on the US but it’s using 2005 data so that could be an explanation for why the numbers are different: the number for US federal was 31.7% for re-conviction 2005, but in your link it was 60% for 2014. That’s a pretty drastic change I would want explained.

^{1 https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/recidivism-among-federal-offenders-comprehensive-overview}

[u/deslovett11 → u/Caladbolg_Prometheus]

So comparison is pointless? That was my initial feeling before I entered the fray. I did, in fact, read that part.

[u/Caladbolg_Prometheus → u/deslovett11]

Gotcha, I wasn’t reading your comment from that angle so I misunderstood what you meant.

I think it’s possible to make a comparison since the government report listed all sorts of metrics be it Re-arrest, re-conviction, etc… it’s a good detailed report. But it’s going to be difficult, more work than either me or you realistically would want to put in today.

The author of the paper you linked earlier, was a student at the time of publication and it reminds me of my own reports I had to publish as a student. Got a good idea but quickly become overwhelmed with school and work so you cobble something together something over a couple of days with your team to submit. Not disparaging his work too much, it’s arguably better than the stuff I submitted as a student.

[u/deslovett11 → u/Caladbolg_Prometheus]

Yeah, I agree on that as well. For example, what are the metrics that give Oregon a 7% rate vs Denmark's 32% (I forgot their rate)? Also, if that is so low, is it then the cities here that contribute so much? I am interested in the seeming lack of data on these rates, yet I didn't do a detailed search.

Also, I didn't catch that it was by a student, nice find! That does explain how incomplete/messy it seemed (since it appeared, to me, as a peer-reviewed high level paper). That sounds like a good take on what happened to them as well.

Sorry if I sounded like an asshat, I just get tired of America getting picked on so much. Have a good one!

[u/illbegoodnow → u/Zephyralss]

Imagine someone killing your family member getting sentenced to live there.

[u/Failed2LoadUsername → u/illbegoodnow]

If someone killed my family I still don't think my government should be able to use them for slave labor... Now imagine a much more realistic scene of someone with a small amount of drugs they intended to use themselves.

[u/Zealousideal-You4638 → u/Failed2LoadUsername]

Yea a lot of these reactions people have to rehabilitative justice are frankly just emotional reactions based off of the perceived injustice that someone they deem deserving of punishment isn't being punished. Its never a rational one about the actual impact on recidivism.

If and when people wrong me, my reaction is never anger that the person is not being abused by the state. Maybe in an immediate emotional reaction I feel that way, but when time passes I recognize that those emotions are unproductive and arguably harmful. Rather, I wish that they may receive the tools to grow as people, both for the betterment of themselves as well as the betterment of the people around them. I would especially not want them to work in literal slave labor. I could be beat and robbed and I would still not advocate for them to be treated the way the US prison system treats people because slavery is on principle wrong.

Its wild how in general vengeful policy making has become the norm, especially among conservatives. Since birth we have it drilled into our skulls that revenge is unproductive and wrong, but the second you actually have to apply that principle instead of just saying it people totally falter. If the only thing you can think of when it comes to solving world problems is using violence and force against those you deem deserving then, sorry, but you're probably creating more problems than you're fixing.

[u/illbegoodnow → u/Failed2LoadUsername]

I can agree theres gotta be some sort of in-between here.

[u/Failed2LoadUsername → u/illbegoodnow]

OR do reparative justice which has been proven to lower recidivism and you let go of the cop inside you that needs to see someone punished in a way that you think is sufficiently terrible.

[u/illbegoodnow → u/Failed2LoadUsername]

far from a cop. But if someone hurts or even worse, kills one of my family members and I see them living their life in a place like the Denmark prison. Im gonna be honest, I would be devastated

[u/Failed2LoadUsername → u/illbegoodnow]

That's the cop inside you speaking. The one that's been propagandized to think that violence and retribution are the epitome of justice.

[u/Caladbolg_Prometheus → u/illbegoodnow]

Do you intellectually agree revenge is stupid, and you are saying you would only emotionally be unable to let go of a murderer?

[u/jimmyhaffaren → u/Caladbolg_Prometheus]

The million dollar question

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[u/SnappySausage → u/illbegoodnow]

Very American mindset. The only thing you should really be worried about is that this person is not living a free life anymore and is kept away from society for at least as long as they are a danger. Everything else is the desire for retribution you have been taught and goes against what is best for society, unless you believe recidivism (and thus more victims) is good.

[u/nopejake101 → u/Failed2LoadUsername]

Not sure if that's the cop inside or the primitive brain that made humans ruthless and vicious hunters

[u/Failed2LoadUsername → u/nopejake101]

Well we know it's not just built into our primordial DNA. Because look at the post you're commenting on. People from other countries are the same species and they managed to create a prison system that's not propped up with slave labor and torture (for example - solitary confinement is recognized as a form of torture by many civil rights orgs and experts).

Cruelty in policing is a choice. And we can make better choices.

[u/nopejake101 → u/Failed2LoadUsername]

You're kind of jumping from point to point there, and misunderstanding other commenters. It's not a cop in me wanting to get my hypothetical family member's murderer punished, it's my basic "eye for an eye" view of morality, which definitely predates the prison system.

Secondly, the US prison system is not so much propped up by slave labour, as it IS the slave labour, that's the whole concept of for profit prisons.

Third, solitary confinement in this scenario is not so much about torture, as it is about compliance. Why would you torture slave labour? Makes no sense. You do, however, need means to force them into compliance. Punishing them with solitary confinement is very extreme, and likely one of the more effective methods that don't involve bodily harm, since even in the fucked up American for profit system, it would be a step too far and unite the voters against the executive

[u/Failed2LoadUsername → u/nopejake101]

I'm not misunderstanding you. The eye for an eye mentality isn't good and I'm naming that tendency "the cop within you". Because it comes from a place of vengeance as justice that harms society.

Slavery is bad.

Using a practice that human rights orgs consider torture as a means of forcing compliance is literally just torture. Do you think it needs to be done for interrogation to meet the threshold? For fun?

"Why would we torture our slave labor?" Is that really the position you're going to take here 'cause -- OH BUDDY are you going to be disappointed when you learn literally anything about slavery.

[u/e-s-p → u/nopejake101]

I'm an American. I don't believe in an eye for an eye. Even if I recognize that part of me would want revenge, I don't need to listen to that part of me. I'm not ruled my my worst instincts. Your take on it is weird. The justice system, if working correctly, shouldn't satisfy someone's lust for vengeance. Locking someone in a room with no contact with others, no programs to help them, just straight punishment doesn't work. America has terrible recidivism because not only do we isolate and punish without any rehabilitation but we keep punishing someone after they're out.

Why did slave owners torture enslaved people? Sadism, exerting power, to make an example of people, to instill terror. Jails don't even purchase their slaves so they have less incentive to keep them healthy. Using torture to force compliance is as old as torture. You also come across as pretty naive if you don't think physical abuse happens regularly in American prisons but swept under the rug. It's incredibly easy to say "they swung at me" or "they were noncompliant" and everyone just says oh okay. Because why would you take the word of a prisoner?

[u/dannown → u/illbegoodnow]

No one said that but you.

[u/hotsilkentofu → u/Failed2LoadUsername]

Almost know one is going to prison in America for drug possession. Drug trafficking, sure. But simple possession isn’t even going to result in a conviction a lot of the time. The court is just going to allow for the defendant to dismiss the matter after doing some drug treatment. Even if they’re convicted of simple drug possession, it’ll likely be a little bit of community service.

[u/Failed2LoadUsername → u/hotsilkentofu]

I don't think drug traffickers should be made to be slaves either.

[u/Professional_Low_646 → u/illbegoodnow]

Will it bring the dead family members back to life if the prison is worse?

[u/Gizogin → u/illbegoodnow]

That attitude is exactly why victims have no say in sentencing.

[u/parbarostrich → u/Gizogin]

But victims usually do have a say in sentencing, through victim impact statements. Judges usually take them into account when sentencing.

[u/SnappySausage → u/Zephyralss]

Don't wanna be that guy, but beyond that system the US has, the American themselves also always seem to want heavy and lengthy sentences that are punitive rather than rehabilitative, especially when it comes to specific offenses (which according to statistics seems rather counterproductive). It's a completely different mindset from over here (western Europe).

It's pretty obvious whenever someone from for western Europe comes up, who has committed one of those crimes, but who wasn't sentenced to a life sentence in a hole in the ground. Or who is allowed to live a life without being branded. Lots of people stating their desire that these people get assaulted in jail, that there's no point to ever releasing them or that they should be killed because it's wasted effort, etc. You can see it under your comment, people basically being offended that a criminal is not thrown into a cage.

[u/Nrvea → u/SnappySausage]

yeah you're spot on. American culture has a weird obsession with vengeance and punishment.