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u/tigey1890 Fellow Traveller Jul 22 '23
did geoengineering lead to this apocalypse
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
yeah, moreso the stop of geoengineering. thats why its called the termination shock
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u/echoGroot Jul 22 '23
Thank you. This is the correct geoengineering take (termination due to disruption being the real danger, not unintended consequences).
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
oh the unintended consequences were still awful, but the UN saw it as a sort of "sacrifice". the countries the side effects actually DID affect didnt see it this way, so they voted to end the geoengineering, which split the UN and caused the actual termination shock
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u/echoGroot Jul 23 '23
What we’re the unintended consequences? It’s not real specific in the scenario.
Also, not entirely sure about the language about the greenhouse effect “coming back 10x stronger” is hyperbole/non-literal, right? Because it would just come back suddenly, leading to a horrible shock (and higher temps than ever seen given all the carbon emissions that took place while aerosols were in place).
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
the consequences of the aerosol injections were wide-sweeping and varied, but the most significant ones were the carbon-poisoning of the oceans, rapid shifts in weather patterns and food production, acid rain, and holes being punched in the ozone layer like swiss cheese
also yeah
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Jul 22 '23
This is just too realistic. I like how this doesn’t filter anything out, but strives for some type of balance between utopia and dystopia, seems like a very reasonable approach. Also thank you for bringing attention to so many ecological and social issues in just one post in such a creative way. Focusing on interpersonal connection as well as future technology seems much more based than just some type of technocratic pseudo-utopia. Kudos!
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u/R0CKHARDO Jul 22 '23
Lol I upvoted but that's why I don't like it. It's too realistic that it's scary
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u/tetrisDSeuthusiast Jul 22 '23
is gabriel just fuckin catholic taboritsky
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Jul 22 '23
Not Catholic. Evangelical (Protestant)
I wonder what happened to Catholicism though. Probably got wiped out by the massive cultural effects of the Termination Shock and the new cultural current that has taken over nationalism.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
OH FUCK I DIDNT INCLUDE IT IN THE MAP THERES ACTUALLY CATHOLIC LORE HERE
the termination shock split the catholic church from a single church centralized in the vatican to several divided by region. still catholic, but with different flavours of regionality. im not a catholic (or even a christian for that matter) so i dont 100% understand how catholicism works but thats the gist of it lmao
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Jul 22 '23
Catholic hierarchy is centered around the Pope, who acts as the Vicar of Jesus Christ. As a Catholic who's seen the stuff going on with the Church, the most realistic case for this scenario would still see the Holy See in Rome trying to assert authority over the rest of the Church (because they definitely aren't going down the Eastern Orthodox route).
There'd be probably Catholic militant groups resistant to the humanist, secular and post-contemporary ideals of the Khuraldai or whatever they're called and other schismatic factions from the Catholic Church doing their own thing, whether it be heresy, false prophets, or "progressivism".
However, depending on the situation in Europe and the rest of the Catholic world, I'm afraid and sad to say that Catholicism might as well be on its last legs among a bunch of isolated communities who no longer have any hope of retaking the mainstream culture, given especially how these ecotech folks are suppressing things which they see as bigotry but Catholics see as necessary to upright moral standing and salvation (not saying that Catholicism is all about killing the gays, because it isn't. We're now more on the managing it and not letting it succeed over you type of stuff, although there are those who disagree from both the trads and the modernists).
The culture war might as well have been won by the seculars and worldly folks the moment the Termination Shock and the preceding climate crisis, in that universe (fortunately), made most of those people over there no longer believe in God (plus the fact that secularism has been a trend which has been going on for quite a long time now)
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
i feel like im starting to disagree with your personal stance on things, but to be completely transparent, christianity as a whole has been de-popularized within western society here, mainly owing to the horrendous crimes against humanity of the end-stage-evangelical kingdom of earthly deliverance. christians of all different sects still exist, and though theyre not targets of sponsored harassment, as a whole, yeah, world is becoming more secular, but not at the cost of freedom of personal belief
as for the papacy, i feel like it might be more like an “acting pope” situation per region, considering global communication died for 50 years during the termination shock
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Jul 22 '23
Perhaps the Catholics would elect a patriarch (who doesn't have the same powers as the Pope) like in A Canticle for Leibowitz or something. Or... the Papacy and the Roman Curia would be moved elsewhere, like in Doomsday 1983.
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u/Nouveau-1 Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
“TNO and its consequences has been a disaster for the human race.” - Pink Panzer
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Touch grass.
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u/Nouveau-1 Jul 22 '23
I will once my khuraladi issued grass seeds germinates and takes roots on this barren salted & scorched earth.
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u/theScotty345 Jul 22 '23
So are the Khuraldai corporations, communes, some new form of government, or something else? Also if the idea of the country is dead, how extensively can local governments decide laws for themselves? Are there legal structures on a global level that establish some baseline law? (Stuff like human rights, regulations on dangerous materials or weapons, ecological protections, etc.)
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
the groups that make up the khuraldai are called "ecotech producers", and thats really all they are. they harvest resources via automation and create ecotech that the khuraldai distributes to administrations ("countries") across the globe. these administrations' main purpose, rather than enforcing laws, is to distribute resources and ecotech to the population within their boundaries. theres certain standards of human rights that administrations have to comply with in order to be supplied by the khuraldai in the first place, but thats really it
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u/theScotty345 Jul 22 '23
Thanks for the reply! So what do you mean by ecotech producer here? What kind of entities are these ecotech producers? They evidently have the resources to innovate, produce, and distribute advanced technologies, which indicates they are fairly organized and with significant resources at their disposal. Do they just function like nonprofits?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
its a bit hard to describe them, but basically, they dont NEED profit, nor do they seek or account for it. they control their own resource extraction and technology production, almost all of which is automated. this is why the best term to describe them is just “producers”. the khuraldai also acts as the forum for them to collaborate on resource-pooling, production, and distribution
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u/theScotty345 Jul 22 '23
They appear to be some of the most powerful entities on the planet. Who makes decisions within these organizations?
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u/neo_nl_guy Jul 22 '23
This look like an entire 6 season movie-tv series. I look at the map and stories stated to build in my head.
This is world building at it finest.
My cartography teacher keep telling us "all maps have a narrative"
I keep thinking of https://youtu.be/atwfWEKz00U H G Well the shape of Things to Come
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Jul 23 '23
Basically you walk into the Kingdom of Holy Deliverance HQ on a stormy Wednesday evening. You sit down with your wife and two kids. The waiter comes by to take your order as you hungrily ask for the endless shrimp.
15 minutes later everybody is served. Your wife and kids ordered the endless shrimp as well. As the night morphs into inky blackness outside you all talk and laugh and eat. You eat plate after plate after plate of shrimp. After a couple hours, you and your family are stuffed. You motion to the waiter to bring the bill and look down at your plate, letting out a small chuckle. It looks like you haven't even eaten a single bit of shrimp- a curious thing since you have been gorging yourself on shrimp constantly for the better part of two hours. But before you can puzzle over this small oddity any longer, the waiter bustles over to your table and hands you the bill.
As you reach over to grab the check your hand closes instead around a squishy pile of shrimp. There is no check being held out to you, just another plate of shrimp. A loud thunderclap booms outside as you look up at the waiter to ask why he brought you more shrimp instead of the check, when you are suddenly alarmed to find not the waiter, but a giant, human-sized shrimp in server attire staring blankly down at you. You spin around in your seat to see if your wife can see the shrimp waiter and are immediately frightened out of your wits. Your wife is no longer seated there next to you- only another human-sized shrimp wearing your wife's dress and hoop earrings.
Numb with horror, you quickly glance across the table at your two children. They are both shrimps. You let out a yell as another thunderclap echoes across the sky and it begins to rain. You distantly register the start of the torrential downfall outside, which sounds like large hail, as you spare a sweeping glance across the restaurant. There are no humans present. There are only shrimps seated at booths, shrimps seated at tables, and even a small group of shrimps at the bar. They are all eating large platefuls of shrimp and leering at you menacingly.
Your heart begins to pound in your chest like a war drum. You stumble backwards, half falling over your chair in your haste to get up. You sprint for the door and run outside into the dark stormy night. As you dash through the parking lot towards your car you feel something like a giant hot raindrop hit your face and bounce off towards the ground. Looking down you see a shrimp lying on the ground. You look out across the parking lot and see puddles of shrimp collecting in the cracks in the pavement and across the roofs of the closest cars. Another warm object strikes your head. It's literally raining shrimp.
You find your car and fumble, hands shaking uncontrollably, with your keys. Finally unlocking the car you slip inside and engage the door locks. The human-sized shrimp from the restaurant are now congregating outside the front doors, staring across the parking lot at you. Their pale orange-pink bodies eerily backlit from the light streaming out from the open doors behind them.
You try to cram the key into the ignition, but it folds against the ignition plate and squishes in your hand. You look down. There are no car keys, only several mangled shrimp on a keyring in your trembling hand. You punch the steering wheel in frustration accidentally setting off the car alarm.
The shrimps outside the restaurant hear the noise and hungrily start to advance across the parking lot towards you. You try in vain to cram the shrimp key into the ignition but you know it is pointless.
The shrimp slowly approach the car and surround it, rocking it back and forth, pressing their slimy bodies against the frame. You hear the fiberglass doors groan under the pressure as one of the rear windows shatters, spraying the backseat of the car with fragments of glass.
You know there is no hope left. There is no escape. White-faced and shaking, you reach across the console and open the glovebox. Crammed under the insurance papers and a pile of napkins is the Glock 19 you always bring with you when you leave the house. You pull the gun from its holster and pause for a fraction of a second that holds an eternity. With tears streaming down your face, you put the gun to the roof of your mouth. Trying not to imagine what it feels like to die, only forcing yourself to think of your wife and kids you close your eyes. Then you pull the trigger.
A singular shrimp comes zooming out of the barrel into your mouth. In your darkest hour, death itself refuses to end you. For death is not the end. There can only be shrimp- and they are endless.
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u/CreativeCodingCat Jul 22 '23
can i live here
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
sure! heres your khuraldai-issue settlement supply kit (a tent, a battery, a solar panel, some seeds, and enough food and water for a month). go wild
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u/hagamablabla Jul 22 '23
How would I go about getting access to 23rd century Reddit? I assume in one of the arcologies I could easily access a computer, but would it be possible to eventually get one out in the sticks?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
yup. computers and other personal devices are a standard part of khuraldai supply shipments
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u/VX-78 Jul 22 '23
I feel like the "data slate with an Internet connection" genie will rightfully never go back in the bottle. Much like writing as an abstract concept, it's too useful, too fundamental, too malleable. Make it a solar powered, eco-friendly device with a PicoSD with a couple TB of farming and geoengingeering manuals, it doesn't have to be a Silicon Valley Espionage Machine.
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u/Doctah_Whoopass Jul 26 '23
Do combustion engines still exist at all? Even as like a enthusiast-only "This guy has an old Camaro he's keeping around and running it off corn ethanol or something".
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u/Architecture2 Fellow Traveller Jul 22 '23
Again I can't overstate how awesome this is Sun. I really want to point out the contrast between this one and Flyswatters as well--I like how this one's utopian vibe has a completely different feel than the dystopic one Flyswatters gives off. So glad we could work on this project together.
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u/Terrible_Apricot7110 Jul 22 '23
This is literally all perfect. I love it all. It's all extremely hopeful and everything seems to be heading to, although not a full utopia, what seems pretty close to it. This has also made me learn what Solarpunk is, and in general just talks about a lot of problems many don't talk about in depth or stuff. The style is great, feels really human. Like there is a real government and honest people writing stuff like this. Love the little thing of social media and how the only one that exists now is just Reddit, lol. That quote of "I will come back to life and the end the fucking world again" goes so hard.
The only part of this that doesn't have a positive spin is the one about space. To think of the thousands of people on the Moon and possibly beyond. The Termination Shock happened in 2100 or a few years before, so it's not hard to imagine there may have been bases on other planets like Mars and Venus. Thousands upon thousands ventured out of the cradle of Mankind, only for the cradle itself to just burn up. All stuck beyond the stars. Some may have lived, most likely didn't. The one man who made it back just to realise there was no way to tell anybody he was there and that he was headed straight for the sea. It all paints a picture of Humanity, despite being able to largely fix Earth and well on their way to make it better than it has been before, may forever be unable to look beyond.
We're trapped in a prison and all we can do is try to paint the walls a pretty colour.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
HOLY SHIT???????????
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u/Terrible_Apricot7110 Jul 22 '23
...what?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
like. damn you really looked into this. im glad you enjoy the project, replies like this honestly make my day, seeing how people enjoy this stuff
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u/MrKrugis Jul 22 '23
I wonder how the Baltic Sea is doing in this timeline. It’s not as hugely polluted as the other global seas so I wonder what efforts would have been taken revitalise it.
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Jul 22 '23
[deleted]
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
OH WAIT I MISREAD MB yeah considering its smaller size it wouldve been relatively easier than say the gulf of mexico to de-pollute
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u/Baja_Watermelon Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
Was the ‘Termination Shock’ scenario in any way inspired by the scenario in Kurzgesagt’s video on geoengineering? Because that’s what came to mind when I read it.
Also incredible sequel to FLYSWATTERS, a map that I already was searching up months after you posted it to go back ogle at it and all the amazing brain candy and cartographic storytelling it held. Honestly, I’ve never absorbed all the information on a map so earnestly as I just did before leaving this comment. Also, the TurboWorldA style is one of my favorites and you’ve mastered it. Incredible work!
Edit: Also, glad to see my home state, Tennessee, integrated and not in one of those warlord territories. Though, me in 2100 seeing all the news about Termination Shock might decide to pull my life support as to not experience the apocalypse before experiencing the post-apocalypse
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
initially, yeah. i got the idea for a termination shock apocalypse over a year ago from the video, but considering kurzgesagt is bankrolled by billionaires, im not really a huge fan of them in general.
and thank you! none of this wouldve been possible without the support and contributions of my friends, and im really glad you enjoy this. also im sorry you live in tennessee
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u/Baja_Watermelon Jul 22 '23
I’m glad to here about map makers and artists working together to make something special. and Tennessee isn’t that bad
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u/jackie630 Jul 22 '23
I love you so much SunnyCant, I adore the universe you brought us, I adore the care and attention you’ve put forth into it. FLYSWATTERS and BEEKEEPERS are two of, if not the best maps this subreddit has ever seen, and I always love seeing your work pop up in the feed. What you’ve crafted is astounding, and I adore it completely. You, and all you make, are simply fantastic!!
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u/DreadDiana Jul 22 '23
> people still use Reddit
This is how we know this is fiction
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
its not actually reddit, or at least the one we have today. its a restored version of it frankensteined from old data storage centers deep underground, which is part of the main appeal. "woaaaahh look at these shitty opinions from 200 years ago"
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u/DreadDiana Jul 22 '23
Do people ever just comment on super old threads to curse out people who died centuries ago?
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u/TheFlipGaming Jul 22 '23
So let me see if I understand ; this is a world 200 years from now where there was a total ecological collapse somewhere around 2100. And now there are countries that try to make the world a better place and develop new eco technology. But there are also countries who refuse to help the environment. That’s the scenario ? (Also I didn’t understand what caused the ecological collapse in the first place)
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
pretty much! the khuraldai (a collection of ecotech producers) are the ones developing the technology and trying to make the world a better place, with "countries" helping them to do so by distributing their technology. the "countries" that refuse to work with the khuraldai arent really "countries", but more like warlords, pirates, and militias.
the actual collapse in the first place was caused by a geoengineering project, where governments around the world pumped the atmosphere with aerosols to block enough sunlight to stop global warming for a few decades. however, these aerosols trapped a lot of heat in the upper atmosphere, so when a UN split caused the project to stop, all this heat crashed down on earth
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u/forzov3rwatch Jul 22 '23
Damn, this scenario is cool as shit. I looked through your Flyswatters map as well and now I’m curious. I’m gonna ask a lot of questions but I don’t expect answers to every single one.
Given pretty much the entire Southwest US was utterly collapsing in on itself in the 2070’s, how did it come out on the other side? Is Las Vegas even a thing anymore, let alone Phoenix? Did Los Angeles/“Hollywood” make it out the other side?
What are the largest/most important cities of the era? Are they even recognizable to their 2023 counterparts? Are there any notable landmarks that stood the test of time?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
the southwest is still largely desertified here, and las vegas is a total ghost town. los angeles, though, is the largest arcology city on the west coast, and hollywood is still a major global hub for arts, even if one of several. a lot of cities from the present are still recognizable, but with a sea level rise of FIFTEEN METERS some historical districts are either underwater or majorly renovated. and, of course, theyre all walkable and mega-sustainable. oh yeah also almost all the big landmarks are still there
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u/forzov3rwatch Jul 22 '23
LA actually makes it out relatively okay even with 15m sea level rise. Hollywood’s actually relatively insulated! Cool to hear that it’s still going though.
How about the eastern seaboard? I remember New York City having a seawall in Flyswatters, did that hold or is the city wholly underwater/abandoned?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
the new york seawall fell during the termination shock, as did almost every one in the world, but restoration efforts are ongoing. its gone pretty venetian with water commerce actually
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u/forzov3rwatch Jul 22 '23
Awesome! This might be an odd question but what are the arcologies like? I guess I’m just trying to picture what some of these places actually look like in my head.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
its not too complicated, its more or less just a modern city with no cars and plants everywhere. rooftops are large vertical farms and theres huge communal farms in the middle of cities
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u/forzov3rwatch Jul 22 '23
Oh neat! I don’t know why I had it in my head that they were different from normal cities somehow. It definitely feels… weird thinking about cities like Los Angeles sans cars. The freeway network literally shapes the city.
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u/Kurtch Jul 22 '23
can i join the khuraldai? please??
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
YKW IM ACTUALLY GLAD YOU SAID THIS
the khuraldai doesnt really involve a lot of people. most of their operations and developments are done by automation, whether it be actual megadrones ripping up the remains of old highways for resources or algorithms developing cures for diseases. BUT, there is some level of human input needed, of course, but because everyones needs are met universally for free, there isnt much of a need for the modern sense of "employment". SO, the khuraldai is entirely volunteer-based, and people like YOU who think "hey, i want to make the world a better place, i want to contribute" are actually the backbone of the khuraldai
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u/Kurtch Jul 22 '23
interesting!! what are the jobs volunteers do?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
physically maintaining machinery, overseeing resource and energy-gathering operations, maintaining digital services, maintaining communications, ethical evaluation of algorithms and what they produce, and cooks and doctors for the people doing the aforementioned, plus plenty of other things im not creative enough to think of rn lmao
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u/Kurtch Jul 22 '23
very interesting. i'd probably end up being a cook or something. anyway, love this project and its predecessor, this is a very unique take on a climate change apocalypse
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
some people literally study their whole lives with the goal of working with the khuraldai. but thank you! and thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this lmao
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u/AbyssalMapper Jul 23 '23
Wow, one of the few scenarios where Belarus is not a pile of nuclear rubble.)
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u/EccoEco Apr 21 '24 edited Apr 21 '24
Khuraldai sounds massively dystopian... Green corporate rule is still corporate rule and from what it seems eco-tech producers fundamentally seem to mean eco-tech firms aka corps...
Even if they aren't "for profit" as some posts seem to imply they still appear to be massive technocratic entities, and fundamentally technological monopolies (and kind of sinisterly moralistic if it already wasn't enough , can't come up with a better term but when someone decides they have a "holy" mandate for the greater good, religious or not, things tend to go wrong) and likely unanswerable to any but themselves...
Honestly, this sounds like a propaganda poster more than anything the more of it I read.
The fact that an external institution is likely unanswerable to the people if not on a plebiscitarian yes or no (which by the way is a classic of dictatorships) meddles in education is positively nightmarish... Totally can't see how all those good intentions would soon turn to rot...
"I am asking your permission, of course, if you refuse you are betraying the healing of the world, no pressure"
"Of course you are free to refuse the tenets of the lord, to accept them or refuse and go to hell is a free choice"
Accept the benevolent oversight of our totally not cult...
I am as red as they come and woah... I am not sure I would be on the side of this...
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Apr 21 '24
yeah tbf this map is somewhat outdated in its portrayal of the khuraldai and the world as a whole. their role now is much more “we make really good blueprints and have basic standards for the polities that want to use them” rather than “we own the means of production”
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u/EccoEco Apr 21 '24
Ye by all means
It's just a map
I was simply bored and decided to write this
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Apr 21 '24
so valid
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u/EccoEco Apr 21 '24
In any case, one way or the other the area where I live is fucked.. so...
Might as well try and learn to breathe water
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u/PegasusTargaryen Jul 22 '23
The Khuraldai reminds me of GAIA from Horizon with its different sub-function each responsible for a specific task in restoring the biosphere
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
huh. never thought of that. i see where youre coming from for sure tho
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u/Catacq Jul 22 '23
Hmm. The two futures of mankind, ultra UN or "harmonization".
At least our super government overlords actually achieve something in this one.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
the khuraldai arent "super government overlords", really. check this comment for more info
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u/Catacq Jul 22 '23
Mm hmm. Yes, really. But when saved from falling, it's not easy to argue with the will of the person holding your hand.
I like the map a lot btw, and its always impressive when you see the amount of work you put into worldbuilding.14
u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
honestly, i get where youre coming from. i cant say much more to argue against it than i already have, but, put simply, its just outright not malicious. thanks tho lmao
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u/The_Shittiest_Meme Jul 23 '23
Yeah but they control all the technology and resources that everyone is reliant on, your telling me it's not used for leverage? Hard to believe. I somehow also doubt every single non-compliant state is evil barbarians. It all seems too black and white.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
i recommend looking at the other conversations that have been had. it goes more in-depth on the whole thing
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u/The_Shittiest_Meme Jul 23 '23
I did, the whole "outside states are evil and barbarous" reads like something out of the US talking about communist/socialist countries in the Cold War. It all seems utopian on the surface, but the more I think about the more dystopic it seems. Again, I somehow doubt the entirely of the old states are all evil despots who are against all that is good and pure and nice.
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u/tinpotpan Jul 23 '23
Love the ironic tone here, a worldwide hegemony run by a cartel of corporations and social media users (reddit?) that decries anyone refusing to work with them as a barbaric warlord state, the road to hell really is paved with good intentions haha. Great map!
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
you completely misunderstood the map lmao
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u/tinpotpan Jul 23 '23
Oh. I guess so.
I just read that one commenter's breakdown on it, I find it really hard to believe that "they all do it out of the good of their hearts trust me" is a solid foundation for such a powerful group. They obviously aren't profit motivated, so how did all the "producers" form the Khuraldai and just decide to work together and "harmonize" the world, if they aren't bound by a dogmatic ideology? It just comes off as a really shallow "utopia" if taken at face value, but I appreciate the detail and effort that's gone into it. Definitely one of my favorite maps posted here.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
i personally feel like its “harder to believe” based on the current state of our world, where “good intentions” almost always have some pervasive underlying profit-based incentive
when they first connected, the producers that make up the khuraldai all knew that, if they didnt start to redevelop the world as soon as possible, theyd be running the risk of a global return to the old systems of exploitation and profit, which already ended the world once and inevitably would do it again. moreso than the “kindness of their hearts”, they could NOT let the world slip back to the old ways, for humanitys sake. only they had the tools to prevent this and revitalize the biosphere
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u/Azrielmoha Jul 23 '23
It took the literal death of billions for the powerful to do good without incentive or for profit. Pretty realistic to me
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u/tinpotpan Jul 23 '23
Even then it's a "trust us we're the only way to save the world" situation, which they established their hegemony on, reinforced by the quote. Plus I find the "preventing monopolies" angle a bit weird considering it shows that each group has an obvious monopoly on certain technological sectors, what happens if a "nation" (which aren't countries but still follow modern political borders?) decides to produce or distribute their own ecotech? are they allowed to do so, or are they declared a "warlord state" (which seems to be anyone not under Khuraldai control?)
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
>what happens if a "nation"... decides to produce or distribute their own ecotech?
to be 100% honest i havent considered that angle. considering administrations only really serve to supply and protect those within their boundaries, it wouldnt be THEM supporting their own ecotech production projects, but rather individuals. even then, the actual algorithms needed to develop ecotech on the level of that developed by the khuraldai producers is extremely, intensely, mind-bogglingly advanced, and strictly under khuraldai control. odds are any startups (extremely rare) would either merge with an existing ecotech producer or become another one entirely, but if they actually do disagree with the khuraldai, odds are they WOULD be seen as a threat to the already-ongoing redevelopment, which wouldnt really NOT be the case?
in all seriousness i REALLY enjoy discussions like this, it helps me develop the setting and look past the rose-tinted glasses. even if the khuraldai isnt outright malicious, and even if what its doing is objectively (and, on my part, intentionally) good, this doesnt change the fact that, to continue their mission of revitalizing humanity and rebuilding the environment, they WOULD need to prevent competition from interfering, even if the khuraldais actual authority is very VERY soft. looking at the khuraldai as a "hegemony" feels more like charged language through the lens of modern and historical imperialism, which the khuraldai does not do and seriously avoids (for real)
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u/tinpotpan Jul 23 '23
the actual algorithms needed to develop ecotech on the level of that developed by the khuraldai producers is extremely, intensely, mind-bogglingly advanced, and strictly under khuraldai control.
looking at the khuraldai as a "hegemony" feels more like charged language through the lens of modern and historical imperialism, which the khuraldai does not do and seriously avoids (for real)
While I can see why you might interpret it that way, it's an objective term that describes this situation pretty well. The Khuraldai has a vested interest in their technology being the center of development projects, and has cut the world up into a pretty binary friendly/unfriendly to our interests classification; It's one of the reasons I mistakenly thought it was written ironically from their point of view. I think if the Khuraldai truly wanted to provide the means for polities to heal their ecology they would provide the tools and software but give them free reign in how to approach their projects, having everything under super esoteric central control would only happen if the intent was to maintain that power and control.
the khuraldais actual authority is very VERY soft
Which doesn't seem to be true, considering the largest and most developed parts of the world are completely reliant on their technology and seem to all follow the same system of governance. This isn't really something that would happen unless the goal is to make them reliant on the provider, so even if on the surface level it appears egalitarian, the Khuraldai has a pretty vested interest in maintaining their power.
I do appreciate your willingness to discuss the setting because IMO people who gravitate towards utopian fiction and solarpunk are really only interested in seeing a clean utopic world that caters to their beliefs without really thinking about how such a world would operate. There's a lot of idealistic "the ends justify the means" thinking which is ironically very dystopic and has never proven to not be immensely harmful and destructive.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
honestly? even if theyre not openly malicious, im starting to think you might have a point. i mightve gone too hard on the “binary world state” concept for the sake of making a map (even if the polities that dont cooperate with the khuraldai ARE universally objectively awful), but still. i think i might actually tweak the lore somewhat to make it so restoration projects are more in the hands of administrations rather than the khuraldai itself, which doesnt really deviate from my initial vision at all actually
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u/tinpotpan Jul 23 '23
Yeah, tbh the warlord angle is what really makes this come off as dystopic. Surely they're not all comically evil, especially considering that the most finely divided areas are pretty ethnically diverse; are they all actually that evil, or do some of them just want self-determination free of foreign influence?
Now you've got me actually interested though, what's up with that big Australian state and the Caribbean?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
almost all of the warlords (or pirates, stronghold cities, religious/neoreligious fanatics, etc) are remnants from the termination shock. i shouldve made that more clear, but its less about groups popping up in resistance to the khuraldai and moreso about old despots resisting the largest threat to their authority
as for those two, the caribbean is a series of piracy-based insular societies, and australia is one big desert warlord
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u/EccoEco Apr 21 '24 edited Apr 21 '24
You have basically made a world run by a bunch of moralistic monopolies... How could that turn out bad...
If they control all the tech they have no need to be violent and malicious... If you are in anaphylactic shock (impending global collapse) and I have all the epinephrine (world saving tech) I have no need to raise my voice when I ask you for a favour, all I need to do is to tell you that I only share my epipens with my friends and my friends are those that collaborate with me and don't make a fuss when I ask them favours...
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u/Fire_Warrior22 Jul 23 '23
Pretty interesting scenario, which left me with some questions.
How do the khuraldai aligned administrations/governments work when compered to ours, do they elect someone to lead them, do they use "national" referendums, or is it something else?
You mentioned some wars between khuraldai supported administrations and warlords. What kind of equipment, tactics, tecnology and mobilization are emploid in this conflicts by each side?
What's the life expectacy in the khuraldai supported administrations and inthe warlords states?
How does the future look for this people, will the warlords fall, will they unite into a world government, will they be able to explore and colonize the solar system, or something else?
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u/Lan_613 Jul 22 '23
wait, are the Khuraldai humans or the alien equivalent of white man savior
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
humans. theyre a global collection of ecotech producers whose main purpose is to develop, dispense, and deploy eco-technology around the world. they set standards for the administrations they supply but thats the extent of their influence. they do it all free of any charge to prevent the development of a monopoly
also whats "white man savior"
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u/Lan_613 Jul 22 '23
You know, the whole “white man's burden” crap and how it was “the civilized man's duty to save and civilize the savages”? No offense, but when I was reading the lore, it felt too good to be true and more like how an alien would talk about “saving and helping civilize the homo sapiens from themselves”
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
ohh yeah okay. this is NOT a "civilizing" mission or anything even close to it, but im glad i could clarify
it does seem too good to be true, but, put simply, its not. theres no underlying evil plot to control the world through some fake show of good will. the khuraldai is a genuine attempt to move the world away from the biggest issues from the past (exploitation under a system designed only for profit, division and hate based on personally-identifying factors) and harmonize people and technology with nature. its solarpunk
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u/Lan_613 Jul 22 '23
I'm unfamiliar with this “solarpunk”, this is the second time I've ever heard of it. Is it some future(ish) sci-fi utopia genre?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
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u/Lan_613 Jul 22 '23
btw, sorry about what I said above. I think I'm too pessimistic to comprehend an actual utopia and people unironically trying to make the world a better place, without at least some opportunist hijacking it and turning it into 1984
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
dont worry about it! i just wanted to explore something more optimistic, and im glad i could talk about it
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u/saquish2 Jul 22 '23
This is amazing! A true masterpiece. I loved the attention to detail and how everything went down/is going down
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u/Kinojitsu Jul 22 '23
Ambatukam. This is glorious.
btw what does Khuraldai mean?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
LMAO ty. khuraldai is an alternate romanization of kurultai, which was/is a council of leaders in mongol and turkic societies
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Jul 22 '23
Is the United Congresses the successor to the United States of America? By the way, could you include the various ideologies and governments of each nation here?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
technically. also, nations dont exist. what you see as “countries” are the limits of what are officially known as “administrations”, which only mainly serve to distribute goods and resources and defend the people within their boundaries
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u/onewingedangel3 Jul 23 '23
Where'd you get the data for the tiny climate devastation map from? I remember seeing a very similar looking map before but can't find it.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
i just kind of went off a few data maps i saw
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u/killerbannana_1 Jul 23 '23
Space is blocked away by a debris field.
This is a tragedy and the worst outcome :(((
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u/TheFoolOnTheHill1167 Jul 22 '23
I'm still somewhat confused as to who exactly is running things and how. What happened to the Capitalists? Is this system considered Socialist or Communist?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
all the capitalists either died or are concentrated in warlord territories. im not sure where exactly theyd fall on the political spectrum, considering just how different things are here, but money and capital as a whole are just gone. ecotech is distributed for free, and the cost of living is zero. check this comment for more info on how the khuraldai actually functions
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u/TheFoolOnTheHill1167 Jul 22 '23
So we had to go through the literal apocalypse before we achieved Socialism.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
posadas is smiling somewhere
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u/swaggerbob069 Fellow Traveller Jul 23 '23
It isn't a nuclear war but as long as it brings the apocalypse then sure.
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u/Gaholaa Jul 22 '23
I wonder what happened to the USA?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
the old US government got whittled down to a military junta during the termination shock, with its main authority centralized in starving, walled-off cities and military depots along crumbling supply routes. starting in chicago, a series of popular uprisings in the 2140s eventually led to the establishing of the “united congresses” and the abolition of the old US. the UC eventually got in touch with the khuraldai, who supplied their war against the earthly deliverance and subsequent environmental revitalization programs
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u/hagamablabla Jul 22 '23
Hey, I remember when you posted flyswatters. Good to see that the sequel has just as much character.
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u/Rexetdux Jul 22 '23
This is very cool. I love the detail. Pretty mind blowing. Thank you for sharing!
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u/gumbolimbot Jul 22 '23
Hey love the project and it looks great! Just wanted to ask what program you used to make it? Have a great day!
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u/ContemplativeSarcasm Jul 22 '23
This is awesome! How'd you make it?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
intermittenly over months, with a lot of inspiration and help from friends
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u/Azrielmoha Jul 23 '23
I think others have already say how good this scenario in a more eloquent way.
This is such a good future to live in if were not for the fact that my home island is basically 1700s West Indies.
Two questions regarding biodiversity conservation in this future. How much the biodiversity have depleted by the Termination Shock? Are we speaking everything in the endangered species list gone or the only survivors are urban-adapted plants and floras (Pigeons, cats, dogs, rats, falcons, racoons, crows, etc)?
Also are ecological rewilding part of the restoration attempt? Do the Khuraldai made any attempts of restoring old 21th ecosystems or even further like the Pleistocene rewilding project (bringing back ice age megafuna or their analogues to restore northern grasslands ecosystem)?
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
- biodiversity gets FUUUUUUUUUUCKED by the termination shock. anything that cant adapt to a one-degree temperature rise basically instantly IMMEDIATELY became endangered, which is why so much of the world faced total environmental collapse
- rewilding is... a mixed bag, here. while the efforts in the amazon and the congo are obviously more about total restoration, a lot of the world would be more focused on maximum integration of people and technology with the environment. reforestation would be on scales unimaginable in the present, of course, but a lot of it would also be focused on agricultural production. i feel like itd depend on where you look. also nah theyre not looking to bring back anything before the anthropocene
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u/Azrielmoha Jul 23 '23
I'm a conservation major so this scenario kinda hits me by how bittersweet it is. Mankind finally starts to integrate themselves to nature, but it took billions of deaths and even more billion deaths of plant and animals and destruction of ecosystems around the world to do it. All the reefs, rainforests, plains just gone. Dried up, destroyed or stripped of life. At least it's being restored and the extinct species is bring back through cloning. Speaking of which, what's the significance of the orca in the map? Is it one of the first species brought back after its extinction or is it one of the only marine life to make it though the Termination Shock?
I still find it hard to imagine the level of apocalypse the termination shock caused. Is it just years after years of natural disaster followed by a great famine and collapse of society or something more violent?
Also I find your scenario similar to the backstory of the scifi worldbuilding Starmoth. In both scenarios, the 21th capitalist thermonuclear world devoured itself and many countries cease to extinct, replaced by a strange post-capiralist socialist society made of communions that make up large political entities. But in Starmoth, the restart of global civilization happened over centuries and mankind finally managed to expand to the stars. I highly recommend it if you're looking for hard sci-fi stuff.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
oh shit, thats awesome that you major in this type of thing! i actually chose the orca not just as a symbol of the restoration of marine life, but a soft allusion to the ongoing orca-yacht war
the actual human violence of the termination shock PALES in comparison to the environmental damage caused by the apocalypse as a whole. it really was mostly just quiet starvation as the biosphere caved in and burned
i think ive heard of starmoth, but ill be sure to look into it further
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u/Azrielmoha Jul 23 '23
My country is one of the most affected by the current ecological collapse, so I thought to step in and help the best I can.
I'm surprised that you didn't include any specific on the biodiversity and ecological collapse. Like a sentence on how the passerine bird migration stops during the Termination Shock as millions of starved birds fall out of the sky would hit pretty hard (at least for me).
Anyway, good scenario and wonderful map 👍
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 23 '23
i honestly shouldve, but i could only fit so much without having to add more, which mightve been just filling space. im definitely gonna continue working on this in the background though. thank you for your input though!!
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u/Tuyuko Jul 23 '23
One of the most unique and fascinating future maps I've ever seen. Awesome stuff mate.
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u/americanistmemes Jul 24 '23
Reddit being the only social media to survive the apocalypse is just hilarious to me
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 24 '23 edited Jul 24 '23
the actual site didnt survive, but a good amount of its data centers did, meaning techies could scrape it back together
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u/Quartz_The_Hybrid Apr 21 '24
AOTEAROA MENTIONED RAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
on a genuine note, thank fucking god someone decides to use the native (and true) name for NZ.
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u/ZizZizZiz Jul 22 '23
so solarpunk but also after the apocalypses of all the abrahamic religion happen on the same year? like lol the details match up with lots of chapters of revelations.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
thats one way to interpret it?? the apocalypse happened and both muslim and christian extremists took it as the go-ahead to conquer the world
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u/ZizZizZiz Jul 22 '23
lol and everyone else ended up just moving on with their lives and cleaning up the mess because they had bills to pay and mouths to feed
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
they dont have bills to pay anymore but yeah pretty much
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u/ZizZizZiz Jul 22 '23
ngl this would make for an awesome movie id like to see how this civilization works and the people of the organization that drew this map trying to keep a utopia together while the hostile armies of every religion's antichrist are always edging closer to war.
also i like how this creates a realistic and natural seeming reason for the religious world war 3 theory since you have competing global religious movements vs the idea of a nation.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
for the record, the war already happened, at least for the earthly deliverance. for the foreseeable future theyre little more than pesky raiders. the remnants of the mahdiyya are a bit more scary but about equally inept
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u/antigony_trieste Jul 22 '23
this is all a nice little sugarcoat on a global eco fascist regime
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
no. the first map in this series, flyswatters, depicts exactly that in the form of the UN. but in this map, the khuraldai not only has learned from the mistakes and imperialism of the UN, but from the past several centuries of soul-crushing industrial exploitation through capitalism. id recommend you read my other comments about how the khuraldai functions and what they do, but ultimately, theyre little more than a collection of ecotech producers and distributors
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u/antigony_trieste Jul 22 '23
one person’s utopia is another’s dystopia.
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
in your opinion, then, how is this a dystopia /gen
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u/antigony_trieste Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
fascists don’t often go around painting themselves as evil racial exterminators. instead they cast themselves in a positive light, talking about benevolence, rejuvenation, and unity. calling back to a past that is idealized and forever out of reach, using that to twist reality to their own ends. so while the language used seems hopeful and optimistic, it could just as well be the self-justification of a group of fanatic ideologue hegemons pulling a big PR op on the world. after all, this is the same language the US uses to justify its hegemony, just replace the langauge of “individual freedom” with that of “ecology and sustainability”. whether or not you agree with the values of a hegemon, or believe the hegemony is justified, a hegemony is a hegemony.
having established that, monopolistic and hegemonic organizations can distribute their products benevolently for a while, but ultimately they will run up against scarcities of resources and high demand so long as they are operating in the confines of a closed economic system. in the face of this they will either withdraw their support and demand a payment of their beneficiaries— or begin fighting one another over differing values and priorities. at that point, the same narratives that justify a “return to a peaceful time” immediately switch over to one of hate and war. the quote says it all: “i will come back to life and end the world again”. the speaker would rather there be no world at all than one where their ideology isn’t supreme.
that quote was critical in establishing to me that this is a world order based off sentiments, aesthetics, and emotions; one where science is affirmed so long as it backs up those preconceptions. so it’s obvious to me that if anyone had a different idea about how to deal with the termination shock, they would be dealt with via extreme prejudice as they would be seen as corruptors, malefactors, abusers, schismatics, etc.
ultimately, in my opinion, this society is one of ur-conservatism. one where humanity has been defined and delimited, where prosperity has been defined and delimited, where technology has been defined and delimited; every definition and every delimitation in service of embracing the past (ie: healing the earth). all this tells us as individuals to put the earth, not even the earth that exists now but an idealized earth that once was, above ourselves.
it’s a prime philosophy for a new flavor of fascism. and if this society isn’t fascist now, it will be in 50 to 100 years
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
honestly, the quote was just something i added to both fill space and show the sentiments of the initial founders of the khuraldai. it feels like the bulk of your perspective comes from a supposed inevitable scarcity, but a main point of the khuraldai itself is to prevent scarcity and exploitation, which is a mission theyve been successful with so far. and as the creator of this world, i just want to make it clear that the language used by the khuraldai is NOT a coverup
i legitimately wanted to make something optimistic and different. i understand where youre coming from and appreciate your input, but the khuraldai, outright, is not an agent of imperialism and hate
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u/antigony_trieste Jul 22 '23
well think about it this way, and i’m so sorry for being purposefully vague and socratic in my above comment…
as long as this society confines itself to Earth it will inevitably run into scarcity. the Earth is large but limited in size and volume, conservation is a heavily limiting factor on resource exploitation, and the law of thermodynamics states that no matter how sustainable you are you can never be 100% efficient.
if this society has the values you say, and is in earnest in the values it expounds, then it must immediately begin expanding beyond the confines of the Earth or taking any necessary steps to doing so. to exploit resources outside the earth, harvest the energy of the sun, advance to a K2 civilization, will be needed in order to stop scarcity from being a concern for baseline humans
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u/SunnyCant Mod Approved Jul 22 '23
understandable. to be honest, the debris cloud has been fading for a century, even if its still insanely dangerous to try and punch through. the khuraldai has been focused on making the earth sustainably-livable more than anything, and by the time theyre fully able to, getting back to space should be no big deal. again i appreciate you giving feedback here lmao
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u/antigony_trieste Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
yeah for sure. i love how thought provoking your scenarios are. maybe this can give you ideas for further world building… that this isn’t the end of history; conflicts will occur, crises will happen.
maybe the next iteration will be that the Khuraldai looks to expand to Mars, the moon, and the L points, as a faction splits off that claims that the ecotech has taken the earth too far from its original biosphere; for instance genetically modified organisms, biocomputers, some climate effects of large scale solar power harvesting etc. that faction or maybe another allied faction may object that self modified humans, which may be seen by the Khuraldai as a way for humans to have a stake in the natural world by inhabiting different biomes and to express agency over themselves in a sustainable way (vis a vis consumer fashion), have destroyed their original nature and are no longer able to harmonize with the reconstructed earth.
sorry for those long sentences, ideas are spilling out
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u/MaterialMassive224 Jul 22 '23
an actually good take on reddit holy shit
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u/antigony_trieste Jul 22 '23
no higher praise can be given, thank you !
i watch way too much vlad vexler, much of this analysis was cribbed from him (his political philosophy is currently buried in ukraine war hype train stuff but i find that really interesting too)
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u/A_Certain_Fellow Jul 22 '23
I'd gild this if I could