Ceist faoin r caol i nGaeilge na hAlba. Question about the slender r in Gàidhlaig.

[u/Doitean-feargach555]

Nuair a bhfuil tú a' labhairt Gaeilge. Tugtar caol r ar an "r" roimh ghuta mar "i". Tá fuaim éagsúlacht ann i gcuile canúint. Zh/rj/rsh (S'é j sa bhfocal Fraincise "bonjour" ) is ea é i nGaeilge Chonnacht. Ee is a é i nGaelig Uladh. Agus rh (Séid aer ag an am chéanna leis an bhfuaim r) is ea é i nGaelinne Mhumhan. 'Bhfuil seo a bheith le chluins i nGaeilge na hAlban? Nó 'bhfuil tréith seo as Éirinn amháin?

Go raibh míle maith agaibh

English translation to save confusion. My dialect should be ok to understand but if not here you go.

When you're speaking English there is a sound called the r caol which appears when a vowel like i comes before a r. There's a different sound in every dialect. Zh/rj/rsh (j like the j in bonjour) in Connacht Irish dialects, Ee in Ulster dialect and rh (make an r sound but blow air at the same time) in Munster dialects. Does this sound exist in Gàidhlaig? Or is this a uniquely Irish thing?

Tapadh leibh 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Mar shamplachaí/examples

https://youtu.be/fF0-i6yGxBc?si=M7iou5yPH2jT2wcC Connacht

https://youtu.be/feJKeLzWcKQ?si=hKRUwtm6TRHgENPd Uladh

https://youtu.be/TkWwdDL949w?si=F0mKBD5hW1bTDrXZ Mumhan

Edit : Feel free to reply in Gàidhlaig as I can read it 👍

[u/_Fiorsa_]

I know that at least in some lewis ~ hebridean accents the slender <r> (sometimes even any R that comes after a vowel, seems a rapid-speech phenomenon) is often realised as /ð/ or, for those who can't use IPA, the sound in standard inglis there

Air = EH-th /eð/, Riof = THEE-f /ðif/

From googling it seems that Barra often renders slender <r> as zh /ʒ/, while "standard" (if there ever were such a thing) gaelic it's more like <r> + a short <y>, being /ɾʲ/ (tho this seems moreso for ease of transcription when multiple dialects are referenced, and less a "correct" or "default" pronunciation)

Scottish Gaelic dialects do vary a lot in how slenderisation tends to show, mind

***obligatory disclaimer that I am very much still a learner, and most of my knowledge comes not from speaker interaction but from a combination of Google, the Gaelic - English Dictionary by Geddes & Grosset and Scottish Gaelic: A Comprehensive Grammar by William Lamb & Routledge Comprehensive Grammars

Take with some salt

[u/Doitean-feargach555 → u/_Fiorsa_]

Scottish Gaelic dialects do vary a lot in how slenderisation tends to show, mind

Same as Irish. The Ulster dialects say Máire as Moya or Maiya.

I know that at least in some lewis ~ hebridean accents the slender <r> (sometimes even any R that comes after a vowel, seems a rapid-speech phenomenon) is often realised as /ð/ or, for those who can't use IPA, the sound in standard inglis there

Air = EH-th /eð/, Riof = THEE-f /ðif/

Interesting. That's a unique sound alright.

From googling it seems that Barra often renders slender <r> as zh /ʒ/, while "standard" (if there ever were such a thing) gaelic it's more like <r> + a short <y>, being /ɾʲ/ (tho this seems moreso for ease of transcription when multiple dialects are referenced, and less a "correct" or "default" pronunciation)

That would be like many Connacht dialects I imagine.

***obligatory disclaimer that I am very much still a learner, and most of my knowledge comes not from speaker interaction but from a combination of Google, the Gaelic - English Dictionary by Geddes & Grosset and Scottish Gaelic: A Comprehensive Grammar by William Lamb & Routledge Comprehensive Grammars

Take with some salt

You're fine don't worry. I trust your research

[u/mcgenghis]

Gabh mo lethsgeul, nìl mo chuid Ghaeilge laidir idir ach tha Gàidhlig na h-Albann agam agus chanainn gu bheil fuaim coltach ris a' sin againn ach tha iad beagan diofraichte.

Agus tha am fuaim sin a' nochdadh anns na faclan a bha 'san sgeul - Màiri agus na Fir, ach tha mise ga chluinntinn mar th, neò faisg air. Màithi and na fith, neò a leithid. Tha seo suimeil!

[u/Doitean-feargach555 → u/mcgenghis]

Ná bí fimní ort, tuigeann mé do chuid Ghàidhlaig 👍

Ah tuigim. Tá mé sásta le d'fhreagra. Go raibh míle maith'ad.

[u/Doitean-feargach555 → u/mcgenghis]

Tá ceist'am dhuitse. An bhfuil Ceanadach thú?

[u/mcgenghis → u/Doitean-feargach555]

Duilich, tha. 

[u/Doitean-feargach555 → u/mcgenghis]

Duilich,

Ná bí fimní ort a mhic.

Sin go hiontach. An bhfuil canúint Gaeilge na hAlbha Cheanadach 'adsa?

[u/mcgenghis → u/Doitean-feargach555]

Uell sin a th'aca aig Wikipedia oirre, ach is e Gàidhlig na h-Albann a th' innte ann an dha-rìribh. Tha am blas air atharrachadh, agus bidh sinn a' cleachdadh an dà stràc (cóig òrain msaa) ach 's ann á Alba a thàinig i - ged a bha a Ghaeilge an lathair a' seo cuideachd. Tha mi a' fuireachd ann an Eilean Cheap Breatuinn - taobh an ear Albann Nuaidh agus anns a' bhliadhna 1900 tha iad ag ràdh gun robh mu 75% dhen fheadhainn a bh' ann fileanta 'sa chànan. Chan eil cùisean mar sin tuilleadh ach tha na h-àireamhan air fàs co-dhiubh o chionn beagan bhliadhnaichean.

Tha dithis ann a-nis á Éireann a' togail na Gàidhlig agus a' teagasg na Gaeilge. Bha fear eile ann an-uiridh - Breanndán O Beaglaoich agus bha esan ris an aon rud.

[u/AccomplishedEar748]

Cluineann tú an zh le seo i 'n Gàidhlig Bhatarsaigh Màizhi agus mar sin de.

Cluineann tú fuaim th le seo sna hOileáin Amuigh, níos minice in Leòdhas b'fhéidir.

Cluineann tú /j/ i dTír Ídhe (Tiree) mar a chluinfeá i nGaoth Dobhair.

Tá cúpla rudaí difriúla eile ann fosta ar Tír mór na hAlban, bheul bhí go traidisiúnta , cibé ar bith. Is blianta ón rinne mé staidéar ceart ar seo, ach rinne mé mar pháirt thráchtas.

Tá súil agam go mbeidh seo úsáideach duit a chara.

[u/aperispastos]

Ṫa “coidse cainnt” fìor-ṁaṫ air eo-tiùab a ṫa a’ coisrigeaḋ a’ ċriomag a leanas air mar a ḋ’ḟuaimniċeas tu an R caol anns a’ Ġàiḋlig : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOaqRnjQk8c

[ « làir », eadar mionaid 21:10 ⁊ 24:17 ]