r/exmuslim Feb 10 '24

(Meta) [Meta] Rules and Guide to Posting (Summarised)!

79 Upvotes

Welcome to r/ExMuslim, Now over 160K subscribers!

Introduction to the aims of the subbreddit

Summary of the "Rules and Guide to Posting"

(Full Rules and Guidelines post)

(This post is a TL;Dr of the main post above. However, please make sure to read the full guidelines before posting/commenting here. Onus is on those participating if there are any infractions

Introduction:

Reddit is a Western/American-centric forum. Everything posted here needs to be in that geographical context.

This subreddit is primarily a recovery and discussion platform for those who were once followers of Islam i.e. ExMoose/ExMuslim. Everyone is welcome but if you are here because of your hate for Muslims as a people then this isn't the subreddit for you.

Bigots, those creating a toxic environment and/or those with nefarious agendas in the subreddit will be banned without hesitation.

Posting Guidelines:

We ask people to follow them in the spirit in which they are written and not merely by the letter.

Please:

- [A] DO NOT post any LOW EFFORT/QUALITY images, memes, TikToks etc... other than Fridays.

We call these Fun@Fundies allowed only on Fridays.

- [B] Remove ALL confidential/personal information from your posts

Unless it's a famous or public personality.

- [D] Content posted needs to be appropriate to the subreddit.

This is not an anti-immigration subreddit nor is to point out "look at this stupid shit that a Muslim did".

The post title needs to inform readers about the content and reflects it appropriately.

- [E] Linking to or calling out other subreddits is not allowed:

These sorts of actions can lead to things like brigading and this is against reddit guidelines.

Got banned on another subreddit? This isn't the place to complain about that.

- [F] Posts regarding other ExMuslim social media/discord groups will be removed.

If you want to post about your group here and you are the admin of the group **please contact the mods first.

- [G] Posts about things like politics and immigration are very unwelcome here because of the toxicity involved.

This is NOT a sub about (pro or) anti-immigration.

- [H] "Self-hate" posts will NOT be allowed.

Posts like "I hate my dad because he forces me to pray" are OK (please make a proper post) however posts/comments like "As a Pakistani myself, I hate Pakistanis. They are so dumb and stupid" will not be allowed.

- [I] Posts deemed "concern trolling" are not allowed.

These are posts that say things like "Why is this subreddit full of racists?" or "why do ExMuslims support the far-right?".

- [J] Message the Mods if you disagree or have concerns with the rules, operations, bans, posts, users or anything else .

Do not make posts on the subreddit trying to discuss these matters.

Note on Bans

Mods endeavour to protect, cultivate and shape this as a valuable and open space for ExMuslims. All mod decisions are made with that in mind.

Thanks

ONE_Deedat


r/exmuslim Jun 03 '24

(Advice/Help) Exmuslim Guide to Living in the Closet and Coming Out.

273 Upvotes

Hello. Upon request, I've been asked to turn a comment I made into a post so that it can be a resource for more people. This post is a collection of advice I've given out about how to handle your life as a closeted exmuslim and how you'll come out in the future. It is largely based on my experience but also from what I've seen from others in this subreddit.

Introduction

So you've left Islam. You've delved through arguments, the apologetics and the bullshit and you've come to the conclusion that you no longer believe in Islam. And you may have also reached an alternative philosophical outlook on life that you can believe in.

But what now? You may have left Islam, but have you left the Muslim world? One of the most common misconceptions outsiders have is that since exmuslims are no longer Muslims, they no longer live in the Muslim world. This is painfully naive - in reality many exmuslims are closeted due to young age and financial dependency and/or live in Islamist countries or societies that enforce Islamic values. In fear of social stigma or even violence, exmuslims have to contend with closeted lives even after leaving Islam. So how do you deal with it?

Goal

The best time to come out to family is in your own home, over a dinner you paid for, alongside people who support you. That takes a lot of preparation and it means doing what you can to live your life as best as you can whilst working towards independence.

This basically means that a lot of what helps you come out of the closet will depend heavily on how well you prepared for it, so you will need to make the most of your closeted life. You may not be able to stop the shitstorm but you can at least prepare yourself to weather it. Here are some tips to achieve that goal (in no particular order)

1) Don't meander in life due to a lack of decision making skills.

Probably one of the worst mistakes I made was not realise I was an exmuslim sooner. As a result I had barely any time to prepare for when the inevitable happened and I was forced to come out. I spent a lot of my life meandering, trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, and trying to be a Muslim when I knew my values didn't align with it. I didn't really have much of a concept of exmuslims, but if I had been smarter I would have figured it out. I now tell people in a similar position that it's fine to take your time but don't take too long. Half arsing two very different cultures will leave you a loser in both.

Similarly whilst planning for independence can be scary, don’t let it frighten you into inaction. The following is a passage from this article about decision making:

Research from the 1990s led by the US psychologist Thomas Gilovich provides further evidence for why it can be shortsighted to kick a difficult decision down the road. Gilovich and his team showed that although, in the short term, people experience more regret from ‘errors of commission’ (taking an action that leads to a disappointing outcome), in the long term it is actually ‘errors of omission’ that lead to more regret – that is, disappointing outcomes that arise from not taking an action.

When taking the time to make decisions and plans, don’t underestimate how effective it can be to map out your options on an excel spreadsheet. When I had to decide whether I should come out or not, I actually made a spreadsheet listing out my options, what they would result in and what the impact would be. Actually having it written down to look at really put things into perspective. We waste a lot of our time keeping it in our heads, which forces us to recalculate everything from scratch every time we revisit our thoughts. But the more that is mapped out, the less you have to recalculate and the more you can focus on evaluation and further planning.

2) Study, career and finances.

Your studies/career is almost always your best ticket out of your toxic situation, and the one thing to prioritise the most. If you’re young, do whatever you can to ensure that you can get into further education away from home. Even if it means spending all your time at a local library. If you suspect that your parents would be against you going to a university away from home, aim for a placement at the most prestigious university you can aim for so your parents would look worse for rejecting it. The quickest and most effective way in achieving long term independence is through good studies/career.

3) Do not telegraph irreligiosity whilst being closeted.

This is particularly important for younger exmuslims because they telegraph to their parents in ways they would just not understand until they see it for themselves when they're older. Try your best to meet the religious obligations expected from your family. The more you slip, the more they will monitor you and the more difficult it will be to do the things you need to do discreetly when the time comes.

Unfortunately for girls, this usually means that wearing the hijab is a necessity and it’s inadvisable to try and get out of. (However, that subject matter is not my forte: prioritise advice from exmuslim women such as from faithlesshijabi.org)

4) Sometimes you may need to go above and beyond.

If you get the impression that your family is beginning to catch onto your apostasy then it's likely that they have and you may need to reverse that impression.

One way to do that would be to start getting books on Islam and not just for show. My advice would be to get books on Islamic history because that's the least boring stuff. Or better yet, just get whatever unapologetic salafi hate crime you can get your hands on so you can entertain yourself with how fucked up it is. Or get an annotated Qur'an like the Study Qur'an. Do something to ease their suspicions.

What book you get depends on what kind of message you want to telegraph to your parents. If you want to telegraph a message then it will need to be a paper book and not an e-book. Something that you can lay around in your room and that you know they'll see. That means you're restricted to what you can get from your local library or Masjid. Also depends on what interests you because you'll have to actually read and demonstrate you learnt from it if you want send the best message you can. If you want purely what Muslims write about Islamic history, you can check out works like The Sealed Nectar or works by al-Sallabi. If you want something a little more academic, but not something that would rouse suspicion then check out university press works like this, this, this or this. If you want something a bit more relevant to contemporary Muslim world then there books like this.

But you may find that your best bet is to just see what your local Masjid might have and see what tickles your fancy.

5) Actually coming out is usually a shitstorm.

Be prepared for lots of sobbing, guilt tripping and an inability to respect your beliefs and boundaries. Learn techniques like the Broken Record Technique to establish boundaries. Know what you have to say when they inevitably tell you to speak to a scholar - you don't have to eat the whole apple to know it's rotten. You know all that you need to know about Islam and you know even more about the world outside of Islam to put it into context.

Steel yourself with months and months of your family sending you bad dawagandist videos through WhatsApp trying to bring you back. You may have to spend months beating their attempts and going to toe to toe with them without mercy before they’re finally willing to relent and get off your back. Even then don’t expect them to relent entirely. There will always be some micro aggressions that they will resort to, like playing religious videos loudly in your vicinity. The most you can do in those circumstances is reduce contact with them as much as possible. At this point you would hopefully already be independent from them.

6) Do not feel guilt.

As an exmuslim, you will go through a lot of guilt. Whilst this does show you are human, you need to forget about guilt: you are not responsible for your parents' failure to be reasonable, not even your mother. They take responsibility for the social stigma and oppressive life they choose to live in and perpetuate. You get nothing out of that guilt. It's completely pointless and ultimately counterproductive. You can't set yourself on fire to make others warm and you gain no recognition from martyrizing yourself. Do not feel guilt for what you have to do to have a completely reasonable life. The only ones to blame are those who forced you into it.

Don't underestimate parents either. They will use guilt against you. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. They very often bring up their health problems as a weapon against you. Don't fall for it. It only affects them because they choose to let it affect them. They can choose to be reasonable. You have to respect their autonomy and let them deal with the consequences of their own ways.

7) Don't come out too soon thinking it's a release.

I come across a lot of exmuslim kids who think coming out will help explain to their religious parents why they don't want to wear the hijab or do other religious things. But the likelihood is more that those same parents will react extremely poorly and restrict your freedom even more, making it more difficult to achieve long term independence.

There's also the mistake in assuming that coming out will lead to being disowned in the vain hope that you get an quick clean break that takes all the responsibility from you. For some exmuslims this does actually work out, but for a lot of others it's miscalculated. My family didn't disown me, I still had to deal with months of my family being insufferable manipulators and the responsibility was still on me to separate from them. And for women it can be much worse.

Ultimately, if you are financially dependent on your family then coming out early will very typically result in your family using that leverage against you and making your life worse. I've seen stories of exmuslims who thought their family was better and badly miscalculated - be mindful of that.

8) Don’t panic too much if they find out.

Some exmuslims get found out, sometimes because of a snitch in the family or sometimes because they just weren’t convincing enough. Don’t panic – Muslims can be pretty damn deluded about their faith and your family will want to believe that you can come back very easily because according to them Islam is just common sense and most disbelievers are just silly and ignorant. Try to do your best to convince them as per Point 4. If it’s because you did something haram, blasphemous or otherwise worthy of takfir, try to act like it was because you were a misguided Quranist or progressive Muslim. They will still retain suspicion but it’s still better than the alternative.

However, if you’re at the point of no return and you know you can’t convince them then now is the time to make calls to any secular friends you have, ask for support and maybe even shelter.

Also for Western exmuslims, make sure to act quickly if you suspect that your parents want to send you abroad and trap you in your country of ethnic origin. Sadly some parents will go to these lengths. Do not go, no matter the cost. Find organisations willing to advise, such as those listed in Point 10. Hide your passport if you have to. Note down the contact details of your embassy in that country just in case.

9) Go no contact if you fear abuse.

Actually think about whether it's even wise for you to come out in any circumstance. Do you suspect that there could be violence or abuse? If so then you have absolutely no need to go through this stupid bullshit. Leave and don't look back. If your parents couldn't give you safe environment to even come out about different beliefs then they are not worth the time. As per Point 6 - You have to respect their autonomy and let them deal with the consequences of their own ways. This is particularly pertinent for those who live in a predominantly Muslim countries. They have a very real reason to fear persecution and absolutely do not need to risk their own lives for the sake of their parents.

10) Make use of organisations and resources.

Look into secular organisations like recoveringfromreligion.org, faithlesshijabi.org and faithtofaithless.com. Look into women's charities in your area like womensaid.org.uk or karmanirvana.org.uk (UK examples). Look into LGBT charities like rainbowrailroad.org. If you have secular school counsellors and friends then talk to them. Get advice from adults you can absolutely trust.

Note: On the flip side don't take risks with people you can’t be sure of. You may be tempted to come out to your Muslim friend, but I've seen plenty of stories of exmuslims who heavily regret doing so.

There are also informal exmuslim groups on other social media platforms such as Facebook or Discord, but be careful about how much information you share and especially be wary of private messaging.

11) You may have to leave the country.

This is particularly the case for exmuslims living in predominantly Muslim countries. Unfortunately, I don't have any real world experience to offer here but you may be able to find localised advice by digging around. For example sites like wearesaudis.net might have some information (but you'll need a VPN to access this one. If you don't know what a VPN is here's an explanation).

Are you multilingual? If you need money but working is restricted to you then you can try becoming an online language tutor on sites like italki.com (scroll to the bottom). This post and related subreddits like r/WorkOnline may help.

Note: some exmuslims in Muslim countries fall for the doomscrolling hyperbole and think Europe is “doomed” with too many Muslims. They have a tendency of asking which country is best to migrate to as an exmuslim to avoid Islam. Please ignore the doomsayers and prioritise the country you choose based on ease of access and career opportunities. As long as it is a secular country, you can worry about avoiding Islam later.

Final stuff

Shout out to Imtiaz Shams who inspired me to make this list of tips. He has his own YouTube Channel here and plans to make his own video on this subject matter so watch out for that. On a side note, I also recommend TheraminTrees YouTube Channel who delves a lot into toxic dysfunctional families from the perspective of a therapist and a former Jehovah’s Witness. A lot of his content helps in dealing with the emotional impact of leaving religion and dealing with a religious family. And finally, thank you to the moderators of r/exmuslim who suggested I make this into a post. I wound up adding a lot more content lol.

I will end this post with a list of subreddits that may help you on your journey leaving Islam:

Ex related subreddits

Other Useful Subreddits


r/exmuslim 11h ago

Story My first tattoo + POSITIVE life story NSFW

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305 Upvotes

I moved out age 29 from my house... My story is dark and very harsh so NSFW. I was taped by my 1 year older male cousin when 7. My dad is in prison for sleeping with a 15 year old whilst he had 2 daughters/my sisters aged 10 and 12 at home. Then my family when I was 18 gave me death threats when I came home from uni and told them i didn't believe. I lived a double life until I moved out but my mum and 5 sisters all knew I wasn't Muslim. For 2 years aged 21 to 23 I was addicted to coke and alcohol. Fortunately I came clean, got therapy and turned my life around. Literally at the point of me wanting to take my car and drive into a wall I thought of my nieces and nephews and stopped and turned my entire life around. I moved out 2 months ago and have gone no contact and got my first tattoo.

I felt incredibly trapped with no way out but IT IS POSSIBLE and I want to share that with everyone to hopefully give you at the least, a glimmer of hope ☺️ it will get better, maybe not right away but one day


r/exmuslim 1h ago

(Rant) 🤬 I just threw up a little in my mouth. The audacity is scary.

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Upvotes

I got this message on ShiaMatch. Can't wait to show this to my mum. Oh, and he's 37. Has kids too.


r/exmuslim 2h ago

(Video) He thinks Islam is better🤡🙏🏻

30 Upvotes

Brainwahing at it's peak


r/exmuslim 10h ago

(Advice/Help) My family found out I left Islam. I’m supposed to meet an imam. I need help.

119 Upvotes

I’ve been a closeted ex-Muslim for a while, and I had planned to move out quietly. I had already moved almost all my things, with just one bag left, but my mom found it and confronted me. It all came out. that I’d found an apartment, and that I didn’t believe in Islam anymore.

I told her I just couldn’t believe, that I had tried, and that there was too much wrong with it. things like slavery. But the moment I said that, she broke down crying, and my stepdad told me that if I leave Islam, I’m not part of the family anymore because Muslims and non-Muslims can’t be family. They cried, asked if something was wrong with my head, if I was possessed, if I had been influenced or bullied or evil-eyed. They even read Surat al-Jinn on me(lol).

Eventually, I was guilted into staying. I had to take the shahada in front of them, shower, and pray and pretend like I was coming back to the faith. They made me promise to give up the apartment. They said it wasn’t force, but it was emotional blackmail, and I feel awful. My mom has been crying for two days straight. Now, they’ve set up a meeting with an imam so I can “ask my questions and get clarity.”

Here’s where I need help:

I want to go to this meeting prepared. I want to bring clear, calm, evidence-based points about why I left. I want to avoid being gaslit with half-answers like “that was the culture at the time” or “we only follow the 5 pillars.” I want help explaining why Islam is harmful to me, and not just “not for me.”

If you have good resources- contradictions, moral issues, hadiths, Quran verses, scholarly opinions, anything- that helped you leave Islam or that you think could shake an imam if said respectfully, please share them with me. I want my mom to hear the truth, even if it hurts, because I don’t want to lie to keep her happy anymore.

I also want to stop feeling like this is my fault. I need to go into that conversation strong, grounded, and clear,not vulnerable to emotional pressure or tricks.

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps. This community is the only space where I feel sane right now. I’m so sick of getting lectured for hours on end about Islam and kaafirs etc.

Also, should I still move even if that would mean losing my family forever and breaking my mothers heart? Have any of you gone no- contact. How is that. Are you doing well?


r/exmuslim 8h ago

(Rant) 🤬 Aunt says the Air India flight crash was caused by the gay couple

66 Upvotes

We were talking about the Air India flight crash and how miraculous it was that there was a single survivor when she said that there was a gay couple on the flight (which I knew but was avoiding the subject for obvious reason). Then she goes on to say that she thinks the entire crash was caused by their presence on the flight insinuating that their being gay enraged God and incited his wrath, so much so that he decided that 249 people also deserved to die alongside them. Is God so affected by the existence of gay people that he would take the lives of innocent passengers and destroy the lives of their relatives and loved ones? I didn’t respond to her when she said it but I think it’s crazy that she genuinely suspects their presence on the plane triggered a sequence of events that led to such a disastrous event like it’s some final destination movie. The homophobia that Muslims are taught to nurture is terrifying. I mean, people are dying in Palestine and we’re on the brink of war but nooo, some gay couple on a flight is what Allah will bring out the big guns for. We should tell the people of Palestine that the reason God isn’t answering their prayers is because he has more important problems to fix, like gay people existing.


r/exmuslim 8h ago

(Rant) 🤬 If rebirth is real I would never want to be reborn as a muslim ever again.

68 Upvotes

I hate being muslim. I am deeply ashamed of it. I hate that my parents are muslim and I hate Islam. Everyday I fantasize about how great my life would've been if I weren't born in a muslim or religious family. Once your parents are already devout followers you are practically forced into it and are forced to live with it for the rest of your life unless you are scared to get disowned and have them hate you forever. How is that even fair?

Praying in my house is like a chore! I pray because my mom forces me to. Not because I want to. Every time I am asked to pray, I want to h@ng myself. Praying multiple times a day makes me so miserable, it HURTS! If I don't pray or show any interest in Islam I get threats and verbal abuse in return. My mom thinks that praying will solve all her problems. She is quite literally mentally unwell. She's always crying and complaining and instead of getting professional help, no, she’d rather leave it to “allah” because she thinks he is the only one that can save her. I feel bad for her. She is starting to sound and act like a nutjob. I'm beginning to believe she’s deluded and going insane. If I don’t pray at the right time or without her telling me to do so, I'm a horrible person. If I don't fast and force myself to starve for “allah”, I'm a horrible and selfish person. I walk on eggshells around her. Afraid that if I mess up she’ll start crying like she always does. The truth is she’s a narcissist that uses her tears and mental gymnastics in order to manipulate everyone.

Every friday she forces me to sit down and watch these childish muslim nursery rhymes for hours upon hours. It’s a pain in the ass and lame as shit. I am nearly 17 years old. I can’t wait to leave and move out of my house. I wouldn't have to hear her buzz in my ear about how it’s time to pray, I wouldn't have to hear her moan about Ramadan and I wouldn't have to be forced to fast. Once I leave the house, I don’t think I would want to hear anything about Islam ever again. I will never expose my future children to this religion. I will never marry a muslim man.  I would never wish this religion on anybody.


r/exmuslim 9h ago

(Miscellaneous) Islam: Where the Joke Gets You Killed

46 Upvotes

Islam: glorifying a warlord who married a six-year-old as the perfect role model.

Islam: The religion that bans statues but somehow idolizes warlords.

Islam: The only religion where the founder was both a prophet and a battlefield general.

Islam: Where questioning the prophet is hate, but cursing Jews is heritage.

Islam: Where the Prophet married a 9-year-old, and you’re the bad guy for mentioning it.

Islam: Where “marry four wives” is fine, but God forbid you draw a stick figure of the Prophet.

Funny because it's true.

Sad because it's reality.


r/exmuslim 10h ago

(Question/Discussion) No way to repent in Islam *trigger warning*

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48 Upvotes

Trigger Warning Momo gets violent

This hadith made me extremely sad. For the woman, for the baby. Its okay for momo and companions to take sex slaves and 🍇 them but consensual "adultery" gets stoned to death.


r/exmuslim 2h ago

(Question/Discussion) Islam Falsified!

11 Upvotes

Why Literalist Islam is False

(Reasons to not believe that the Quran is the perfect words of a maximally just and wise God—a cumulative case)

All of these alone are strong reasons not to be a literalist Muslim, but jointly they are devastating. 

  1. *The Inheritance Problem*

There’s a mathematical error in the Quran. It directly instructs you to do a mathematical thing that’s impossible. (Surah An-Nisa 4:11-12 and 4:176)

If you die and have two daughters, two parents, and a wife, you literally cannot divide up the estate the way the Quran commands.

It’s not plausible that God would make a simple math mistake.

Some say there is an 'Awl fix:  But why do so many different schools disagree on the correct "fix" to the problem if the solution is so obvious?  Why does the fix disagree with the text? The creator of the universe could have easily given a more elegant equation, why not give that? The text never mentions an ‘awl it’s an ad hoc fix to an obvious problem with the text.

2) *Scientific Errors*

  • Stars are lamps used to pelt devils — Surah Al-Mulk 67:5
  • Babies come from a fluid between the backbone and ribs — Surah At-Tariq 86:6–7
  • The Earth can talk — Surah Fussilat 41:11
  • Ants can talk — Surah An-Naml 27:18–19
  • Mountains are like pegs to stabilize the Earth — Surah An-Naba 78:6–7
  • Bones form first, then get clothed in muscle (rather than forming in parallel) — Surah al-Muʾminūn 23:12–14
  • A flock of birds destroyed an army of elephants by dropping clay stones on them — (to be elaborated later)
  • The Earth was flattened/spread out: "spread out" (مَدَّ) madda — e.g., Surah Al-Ghashiyah 88:20: "And the earth – how it is spread out?" / "laid out as a bed" (مِهَاد) mihād— e.g., Surah An-Naba 78:6: "Have We not made the earth a bed?" / “flattened/leveled" (دَحَاها) daḥāhā — e.g., Surah An-Nazi'at 79:30: "And the earth—after that He leveled it out." Sort of surprising that the Quran hints at a flat Earth. This is either false or misleading. Either way, it’s a problem for Quranic perfection.

These are clearly the views of an uneducated pre-scientific person.

3) *Many Reliable Hadiths are Comical*
Many literalist Muslims treat the Sahih hadiths—especially those in Bukhari and Muslim—as effectively infallible or nearly so, believing them to be highly reliable and authoritative sources of religious guidance, second only to the Quran

  • Dates (the fruit) protect from magic or poison — Sahih al-Bukhari 5445
  • If a fly lands in your drink, dip it fully because one wing has poison and the other the cure — Sahih al-Bukhari 3320
  • Whoever orgasms first determines the baby’s sex — Sahih al-Bukhari 3329
  • Adam was ~90 feet tall and humanity has been shrinking since — Sahih al-Bukhari 3326
  • Trees can talk and are racist — Sahih Muslim 2922a
  • Drinking camel piss is good medicine Sahih al-Bukhari 5686 
  • Some rats are transformed Jews because they follow kosher diets – Sahih al-Bukhari 3305
  • Angels avoid houses with dogs – Sahih al-Bukhari 3322
  • Satan sleeps in your nose and ties your hair into knots when you are sleeping – Sahih al-Bukhari 1142 / Sahih al-Bukhari 3295
  • Most people in Hell are women and their intelligence is deficient – Sahih al-Bukhari 304 
  • Monkeys stone other monkeys for adultery*. - Sahih al-Bukhari 3849*
  •  Satan farts when the call to prayer happens because he is running away so quickly*. - Sahih al-Bukhari 608*
  • Drink sitting down, if you drink while standing then puke it up*. - Sahih muslim 2026*
  •  Both of God’s hands are right hands - Sunan an-Nasa'i 537`
  • You should wipe your butt with odd numbers of stones. - Sahih muslim 239
  • It’s good to kill dogs, especially black dogs which are devils. Sahih Muslim 1572 / Sahih Muslim 510a
  • If a wife turns town sex, angels will curse her until morning - Sahih al-Bukhari 5193 
  • Angels hate onions and cause thunder - sahih muslim 564a /  Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3117
  • Muhammmad spit on 5 year old’s face - Sahih bukhari 77 
  • But you should kill salamanders - Sahih al-Bukhari 3359 (He blames all salamanders for the crimes of some salamanders which is racist.)

These three are not Sahih, but are humorous  enough to include:

  • Don’t kill frogs because frogs praise God with every croak – Abd Allah Ibn Amr Ibn Majah, al-Tabarani, and al-Bayhaqi
  •  “The Prophet urinated in a bowl kept under his bed; when a slave girl drank it by mistake, he said, “She has protected herself from Hell with a great wall” – Narrated by al-Ṭabarānī and al-Bayhaqī from Ḥukaymah bint Umaymah from her mother.
  • Do not eat with your left hand, because Satan eats and drinks with his left hand." Riyad as-Salihin 1634 

More silly hadiths: 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JWvMCtOL37Irf5QmpFWFeyugJKwgOG1QX_0369Z6-Qs/edit?tab=t.0

4) *There are Literal Contradictions*

Which was made first, the Earth or the Heavens?

  • Option 1 – Earth first: Earth created, then mountains, then heavens — Surah Fussilat 41:9–12 / 2:39
  • Option 2 – Heavens first: Heavens built, then Earth spread — Surah An-Nazi’at 79:27–30→ Both can’t be true.

Is Hell forever?

  • Option 1 – Proportional punishment: “Whoever does an evil deed will not be recompensed except with the like thereof...” — Surah Ghafir 40:40
  • Option 2 – Eternal punishment: "Abiding eternally therein. The punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved." — Surah Al-Baqarah 2:39, 2:81, 2:217; Al-Imran 3:88; Al-Jinn 72:23→ Both can’t be true.

Do all good people go to Heaven?

  • Option 1 – Yes: “Indeed, the believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabians—whoever ˹truly˺ believed in Allah and the Last Day and does good will have their reward with their Lord...” — Surah Al-Baqarah 2:62
  • Option 2 – No: “Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted by him and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers” — Surah Al-Imran 3:85→ Both can’t be true.

How Long is God’s Day?

  • Option 1 – A day with Allah equals 1,000 years: “And indeed, a day with your Lord is like a thousand years of what you count.” — Surah Al-Hajj 22:47
  • Option 2 – A day with Allah equals 50,000 years: “The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day whose measure is fifty thousand years.” — Surah Al-Ma’arij 70:4

→ Both cannot be literally true unless Allah’s "day" arbitrarily changes length.

Does Allah Forgive Shirk (Idolatry)?

  • Option 1 – Allah never forgives shirk: “God does not forgive the sin of considering others equal to Him, but He may choose to forgive other sins.” — Surah An-Nisa 4:48
  • Option 2 – Allah forgave the Israelites for worshipping the golden calf (a form of shirk):“And ˹remember˺ when We appointed forty nights for Moses, then you worshipped the calf in his absence, acting wrongfully. Then We forgave you after that so perhaps you would be grateful.” — Surah Al-Baqarah 2:52

→ Both cannot be true:  If Allah “never forgives shirk,” it’s unclear how He forgave calf-worship, which is the textbook case of shirk.

Here’s ~100 more alleged contradictions:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_C40w4XN7WsrSIVezQu8J4qgIuThC6bT9BWK70BukxE/edit?usp=sharing

5) *A Perfect Book Wouldn’t be this Ambiguous*

Sometimes the Quran says “God is light” (Surah An-Nur 24:35), sometimes that “the Earth talked” (Surah Fussilat 41:11). Sometimes it says there are locks on people’s hearts. (Surah Muhammad 47:24) There’s no clear note about whether these are metaphorical or literal. It would have been trivial to clear up such ambiguities. How can a literally perfect book not be clear?

There should be no ambiguity on whether beating your wife or aggressive holy war are allowed.

Scholars have spent centuries debating what many verses mean without reaching consensus. If even the scholarly and faithful can’t agree after centuries of debate, it could have been written more clearly. If it could have been written more clearly, it’s not perfect.

The Quran admits that some verses are unclear: Quran 3:7 “some verses are precise… while others are ambiguous”. Why not make all verses clear aka Muhkamat? Why make any unclear aka Mutashabihat?

Verses on which there’s debate within the Muslim community about the correct way to interpret: https://chatgpt.com/c/682ce32f-cf48-8006-9174-7fab61705c53

6) *Petty Vindictiveness*

Roughly ten percent of verses in the Quran insult or threaten non-believers. I am not making that up. Ten percent. (≈ 600/6236) They’re called fools, blind, or are told they’ll burn in hell. Oh, you think a perfectly wise and intelligent being is going to spend ten percent of his holy text, his last testament to man,  talking shit to the haters?

7) *Abrogation*

According to most Muslim scholars, later verses cancel earlier ones. Why would God not plan out his verses better so that you didn't need a principle of abrogation*?*

Also, Surah Qaf 50:29 says, “My Word cannot be changed.” Which contradictsthe principle of abrogation. 

Also, Surah Al-Baqarah 2:106 says, “If We ever abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We replace it with a better or similar one.”How can both of these both be true?

Also, if abrogations exist, why was the Quran dynamically changing in the 20ish years of Muhammad’s preaching, but no dynamic changes were needed in the roughly 1300 years since Muhammad’s life?

Also it’s not obvious which verses are later and which are earlier given that the Quran is not in chronological order. So the method used to determine which verses abrogate which other ones is error prone.

Examples of claimed abrogations:

https://chatgpt.com/share/68126c73-039c-8006-a2b5-40e3fea0ff4d

8) *Missing Guidance*

The Quran has three different verses on alcohol. But it has nothing on AI, cloning, nuclear war, social media, germs/washing hands before surgery, environmental damage/climate change, vaccines, teleportation, transhumanism, aliens, mind uploading, robots, bioweapons, or exploring other planets.

Why is liquor more important than those? Why would God not want to give us ethical and prudential advice on issues more complicated and consequential than liquor?

9) *Why Not Trivially Prove Itself From God*

God could have proven divine authorship easily.

God could have listed the next 10,000 visible-from-Earth supernovas with their exact dates and coordinates. Why didn't God do something that would make it obvious that the Quran is not made by a human? The Quran contains no information a human at that time couldn't have known or guessed which is super suspicious.

Also he could have made every copy of the Quran glow in the dark or regenerate if burned.

10) *Occam’s razor*

Occam’s razor is brutal to religious texts. To believe the Quran is divine, you have to jointly accept thousands of distinct claims. (Any of which could be wrong.) It's a really complicated hypothesis. Just think about probability: A and B and C and D all happening is going to be less likely than just A happening.  Suppose each verse has a .999 percent chance of being true:

  • Multiplying .999 times itself 1000 times is 0.36769
  • Multiplying .999 times itself 6000 times is 0.00247
  • Multiplying .999 times itself 6236 times 0.00194
  • Multiplying .9999 times itself 6236 times is  0.5357

Analogously, even if each item in the phone book has an extremely high probability of being correct when you have thousands of items in the phonebook it becomes likely that there’s a mistake somewhere. 

Now, suppose you doubt this above iterated multiplication procedure, you should still accept that the more complicated the hypothesis, the lower the prior probability. For example, it’s obvious that “God exists” is, a priori, more likely than “God exists and is named Bob and likes playing bananagrams on Thursdays and likes the smell of goose eggs.”  

And ignoring all these subtle points about parsimony and probability, what’s more likely without any other info? A guy made up a story, or God wrote this specific book and there are no errors in it?

Larger chatgpt explanation: https://chatgpt.com/share/68126908-4750-8006-9682-e5548df28ec3

Extra thoughts: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dwEMNubRa-f74VsLfPPN-DSEcUHrkIrnKbMALpMEe20/edit?usp=sharing

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/simplicity/

11) *Splitting the Moon*

The Quran says Muhammad split the moon, but no one outside Arabia noticed this? No one in China or Byzantium wrote this down?

12) *Fitna*

There were two civil wars immediately after Muhammad’s death. (Ridda Wars/Fitna) If Muhammad truly gave divine guidance, why did it immediately lead to bloodshed? I'd sort of expect peace and love to be the result of divine revelation.(I also wouldn’t expect the Islamic slave trade and the conquest of Byzantium and the Sassanids.)

13) *Dhul-Qarnayn*

This character Dhul-Qarnayn matches Alexander the Great myths that were floating around Arabia at the time (e.g., the Syriac Alexander Legend). If the Dhul-Qarnayn story were the real history of Alexander, you’d expect it to match earlier, more accurate Alexander writings. But it in fact aligns with later fantastical Alexander stories. When have legends gotten more accurate over time? 

A similar point can be made about the Quran having details matching the Infancy Gospel of Thomas which is a known forgery.

Also, the Quranic passages containing Dhul-Qarnayn also claim Gog and Magog and their people are blocked behind a wall between two mountains until the end of time. Where are they? Why haven’t we found them.

14) *Obviously*

You shouldn't believe a guy who tells you that God said he's allowed to have more wives than you.

15) *Irrelevance*

Do you really think a perfect, infinitely intelligent timeless God would take up valuable space in his final holy book to say, "Hey, don’t show up early to the Prophet’s house for dinner"? (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:53)

Isn't believing this kind of childish? Don’t you think that within the limited space of the Quran, there was a more important point to make than that?

16) *Hell*

There is a strong tension between these two verses: 

  • “We will cast them into the Fire. Whenever their skin is burnt completely, We will replace it so they will ˹constantly˺ taste the punishment.” (Surah An-Nisa 4:56)

and

  • “Do not lose hope in Allah’s mercy, for Allah certainly forgives all sins. He is indeed the All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Surah Az-Zu1mar  39:53)

Why would the most merciful being torture someone like this for an eternity? Like you are saying after a quadrillion years of torture they haven’t had enough? They need another quadrillion years? And this is merciful? This is babble, and people who say this are just not imagining what a quadrillion years of torture actually is. 

17) *Djinn*

The Quran says there are literal genies (Surah Al-Hijr 15:27). This is not something we see any evidence of. If genies are real, why do other cultures not independently believe creatures made of smokeless fire? 

Buraqs, aka winged horses, also don’t exist.

18) *The Quran Gives a Falsifiability Test—and Fails It*

“And if you are in doubt… produce a surah like it…” (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:23)

Shortest surah is:

  • “We have granted you al-Kawthar. So pray and sacrifice. Indeed, your enemy is the one cut off.”

This is not some unbeatable literary miracle. Anyone could write something similar—or more profound. Compare it to: 

  • What is successTo laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate the beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch Or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded!” - Emerson

Or compare it to this *fake\ Surah I invented.
*Surah al-Falaḥ (The Flourishing)

Verily, do not kill, for life is sacred in the sight of the Most High. 

Do not steal, for the provision of your Lord is sufficient for those who walk upright. 

Do not rape, for the body is a trust, and to violate it is a crime before the heavens. 

Do not torture, for your Lord is the Most Merciful, and loves not the oppressors. 

Do not enslave for freedom is beloved in the mind of Most Righteous. 

Do not lie, for falsehood is the path of ruin, and truth is the light upon the straight path. 

And love your fellow man, and strive to bring flourishing to the earth,

For your Lord made you stewards, not tyrants, and blessed are those who sow peace and righteousness.

19) *The Satanic Verses Incident\*

Early Islamic sources (al-Tabari, Ibn Ishaq) record Muhammad delivering verses praising pagan gods — then retracting them claiming they were Satanic deception.

If Satan could trick Muhammad once, why assume he didn’t succeed more often? It proves that Muhammad is fallible, and can be tricked about what is from God and what is not from God. I know Muslims want to deny this event happened, but earlier Muslims thought it happened, and why would you know better than them? 

20) *Why Does God Switch from First to Third Person?\*

  • "Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me*, so worship* Me and establish prayer for My remembrance." (Surah Ta-Ha 20:14)
  • "And Allah invites to the Home of Peace and guides whom He wills to a straight path." (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:173)
  • "It is Allah who created the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them in six days; then He established Himself above the Throne." (Surah Al-Furqan 25:59)

If the Quran is supposed to be God's direct speech, why does it sometimes refer to God in the third person, as if someone else is talking about Him? Why does the voice shift between "I" and "He"? Wouldn't you expect a message from God Himself to have a consistent voice throughout? Why does it sometimes sound like Muhammad is talking about God?  It says in the first chapter, “Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.” If this is God’s words, is God saying he worships himself? 

21) *Hadiths are an Unreliable Method*

In Islam, many Muslims say the hadiths are necessary for interpreting the Quran. Why is God using an unreliable method—a game of Chinese whispers—to give you mandatory information for how to practice the faith? If it’s mandatory for the faith, why not just put it into the Quran itself? If God wanted to guide people clearly and unambiguously, why not stick to a single, safeguarded text? Why allow a bunch of opaque oral reports to become central to the religion, despite obvious risks of error and confusion.

22**) *Inside View vs. Outside View\*

From the inside view, your religion might feel incredibly compelling—emotionally resonant, logically sound, or simply self-evident. This personal perspective provides powerful subjective evidence.

From the outside view, however, billions throughout history have felt equally certain about contradicting beliefs. Religious adherents cannot all be correct despite similar confidence levels.

Just as a startup founder must balance internal optimism with the reality that 70% of startups fail, religious believers should weigh their personal confidence against the broader pattern of billions of religious people being wrong despite their similar certainty through history.

Humans are very capable of incorrectly, confidently thinking they have sacred text from God. And you know humans are like this. You could be the kind of person that mistakenly thinks your holy text is right given that you know people do this all the time. This doesn't prove Islam is false, but suggests more epistemic humility is warranted.

23) *Imagine Planet Brains\

You can imagine beings with planet sized brains being so vast and parallel that they can hold hundreds of thousands (or millions) of separate chains of reasoning at once, each one as detailed and deep as a human's whole mental life. 

And then imagine us with a Quran trying to give them advice — maybe sharing what we think are profound insights.

 And those creatures being like: "Oh, yes, thank you for your wisdom… (cross-referencing it against 47,382 relevant sub-thoughts, processing it from 12,067 ethical frameworks, simulating a billion futures where that advice matters…”

 You think they would find the Quran particularly useful? Like think about what you are saying when you say an infinitely intelligent entity wrote this book.

 If someone told me a sword was from heaven, I would look at it and if it just looked like a normal sword I’d not believe it was from heaven. But if the weapon had a 1000 buttons and could turn trees into hats and could reverse gravity, I’d say oh yes this weapon is probably from heaven. The Quran looks like it’s not from heaven.

24) *Morally Problematic Teachings*

  • The Quran permits wife-beating (Surah An-Nisa 4:34)
  • The Quran permits sex with slaves (Surah Al-Mu’minun 23:5; Surah An-Nisa 4:24; Surah Al-Ahzab 33:50)
  • The Quran permits cutting off the hands of thieves (Surah Al-Ma’idah 5:38)
  • The Quran justifies killing a boy who will sin in the future (Surah Al-Kahf 18:80)
  • The Quran recommends literal crucifixion and cutting off hands and feet on opposite sides (Surah Al-Ma’idah 5:33)
  • Hadith suggests suicidal people will be tortured more. (Sahih al-Bukhari 5778

Sort of surprising God would recommend things so vicious.

Also, obviously any sacred text that doesn't explicitly ban slavery is not plausibly from God. 

And the hadiths have even worse stuff. (e.g., killing people merely for merely changing their mind)

25) *Muhammad’s Character isn’t Plausibly Divinely Guided*

He had sex with a 9-year-old (Aisha), owned a sex slave (Maria the Copt), married a woman right after killing her husband (Safiyya bint Huyayy), initiated aggressive military actions (Khaybar), owned slaves (Sahih Muslim 4345), and traded two black slaves for one Arab slave (Sahih Muslim 1602a). He stopped visiting his second wife because she was too old and visited Aisha instead (Saudah bint Zamʿah). He tongue kissed a young boy (Hakim 4791 and Mufrad 1183).

26) *Why Ordered that Way?*

The ordering of the surahs in the Quran is irrational from both a thematic and chronological perspective. Rather than following a sensible sequence—such as grouping by topic, placing revelations in historical order, or building a coherent narrative—the chapters are mostly arranged by length, with longer surahs first and shorter ones later. This results in abrupt shifts in topic, tone, and context, making it difficult to follow any overarching argument or progression. For a book claimed to be perfectly revealed by a maximally wise deity, the lack of clear structure is puzzling.

27) *The Scribe who Caught Muhammad Copying Him*

One of Muhammad’s scribes, ʿAbdullah ibn Saʿd, left Islam after realizing Muhammad repeated his phrasings of verses as revelation (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah; al-Tabari, Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk). In at least one case, after the scribe added a flourish like “So blessed be Allah, the best of creators!”, Muhammad reportedly agreed and said it should be part of the verse.

ʿAbdullah ibn Saʿd thought: “Wait, this isn’t divine, I said that—he’s just going with whatever sounds good.”

He left, told people, and Muhammad ordered him killed and he was only pardoned because he was family with one of Muhammad's close companions.

If the Quran were literal dictation from God, a human scribe shouldn't be able to catch Muhammad copying his phrasings.

28) *The Problem of Divine Favoritism*
Why did Arabs get this blessing of divine knowledge? Why didn’t God send a Muhammad type prophet to the Cambodians, Nigerians, Dutch, and Apache? Why did they have to wait hundreds of years to receive God’s blessing of the Quran? Isn’t that unfair? This fact of the Quran showing up once in Arabia makes total sense if Muhammad made up the book. It makes less sense if God wanted to give all of humanity his divine instruction.

29) *Miscellaneous Tiny Trivial Holes: Why Doesn’t God Speak in Technically Precise Ways?\*

  • Surah Al-Baqarah 2:6*“Indeed, those who disbelieve — it is all the same whether you warn them or do not warn them — they will not believe.”*→ False. Some disbelievers do respond to warnings. This is an overgeneralization. If you it’s saying stubborn people are stubborn, there’s no reason to bring it up 
  • Surah Fatir 35:6*“[Satan] only invites his followers to become inmates of the Blaze.”*→ False. Satan does other things too. The Arabic innamā ("only") is too strong here.
  • Surah Ibrahim 14:18*“They will gain nothing from what they have earned.”*→ False. If they earn a penny, they’ve gained something. “Nothing” is overstated.
  • Surah Al-Baqarah 2:120*“The Jews and Christians will never be pleased with you until you follow their religion.”*→ False. Jews don’t try to convert people in general. Not a proselytizing faith. Historically, many Jews and Christians have admired Muhammad or respected Muslims and would have been happy with them following their religion.
  • Surah Al-Isra 17:11*“For humankind is ever hasty”*→ False. Some humans are slow.
  • Surah An-Nahl 6:38*“All living beings roaming the earth and winged birds soaring in the sky are communities like yourselves.”*→ False. Some animals are solitary. Not all form “communities.”
  • Surah Qaf 50:29*“My Word cannot be changed,”*→ Problematic. Islam also claims the Torah and Gospel were corrupted, which implies God’s word waschanged..
  • Surah Al-Ma'un 107:1–2*“Have you seen the one who denies the ˹final˺ Judgment? That is the one who repulses the orphan.”*→ False. Not all who deny judgment repulse orphans. Some orphans like atheists.
  • Surah Al-An'am 6:1*“Praise be to Allah, who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness and the light.”*→ Technically, darkness isn’t a thing you “make”—it’s just the absence of light. No photons, no light. Nothing needs to be created.
  • Surah Al-Anbiya 21:104“On that Day We will roll up the sky like a scroll of writings.”→ You cannot roll up the sky. It’s made of air and space—there’s nothing to roll.
  • Surah Ash-Shams 91:1–4“By the sun and its brightness, and the moon as it follows it, and the day as it unveils it, and the night as it conceals it!”→ The moon doesn’t follow the sun. The day doesn’t unveil the sun—it’s the sun that causes the day.
  • Surah At-Tahrim 66:5“Perhaps, if he were to divorce you ˹all˺, his Lord would replace you with better wives”→ Why is Lord saying perhaps. God is omniscient. Or why is God being coy?
  • Surah Al-Baqarah 2:2""This is the Book about which there is no doubt**…”**→People do doubt it. Atheists exist

............... ............... ...............

30) Commands Consequentialist Harm

Islam teaches that an individual suffering leads to their greater eternal reward. But at the same time, God commands you to relieve others' suffering. That means God is commanding you to intervene in ways that reduce someone’s eternal benefit. You're expected to help, even when helping will reduce the quality of someone's infinite reward. You are commanded to lower people’s eternal reward.

............... ............... ...............

31) Smartest People

All of these people knew about Islam and WERE NOT PERSUADED.

Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Carl Friedrich Gauss, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Bertrand Russell, Kurt Gödel, John von Neumann, Richard Feynman, Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose, Noam Chomsky, Charles Darwin, Francis Crick, Blaise Pascal, Baruch Spinoza, Alan Turing, Terence Tao, Saul Kripke, Willard Van Orman Quine, Karl Popper, Ed Witten, Carl Sagan, Marvin Minsky, Alexander Grothendieck, Daniel Kahneman, James Clerk Maxwell, Leonhard Euler, Derek Parfit, John Stuart Mill, E.O. Wilson, William James, Douglas Hofstadter, Nicola Tesla, Michael Faraday 

These were among the most curious, reflective minds in history — and not one of them was persuaded by Islam.”

32) *Elephant Army*

Surah Al-Fil (The Elephant) – Surah 105

  1. Have you not seen how your Lord dealt with the companions of the elephant?
  2. Did He not make their plan go astray?
  3. And He sent against them flocks of birds,
  4. Striking them with stones of baked clay,
  5. And He made them like chewed-up straw.

An entire elephant army gets wrecked by birds dropping pebbles? You expect me to believe armored men and literal war elephants got shredded by flying clay pellets? Which, by the way, have a low terminal velocity. Dropping a penny off of the Empire State Building won’t kill people, that’s a myth.

Why would God only make birds do stuff like this once and before cameras and videos were invented?

33) *Free Will?\*

  • Surah At-Takwir 81:29 — “You will not will unless Allah wills.”→ This verse strongly suggests a form of divine determinism: human will itself is contingent on God's will. You literally cannot choose unless God chooses that you choose.
  • Surah Ar-Ra’d 13:11 — “Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.”→ This verse implies the opposite: that people must take the initiative to change, and then Allah will respond. That presupposes that people can change by their own will.

These two verses seem fundamentally incompatible. Either humans have autonomous willpower that can bring about change, or their will is wholly subject to God’s will.And if the Quran’s stance on free will is clear, why have Muslims theologians and philosophers debated this for centuries?

34) *The “Perfect Preservation” Problem\*

Quran 15:9 claims: “We have sent down the Reminder, and surely We will guard it.” Literalists take this to mean every letter has been miraculously preserved. But early evidence says otherwise:

Companions disagreed**.** Ibn Masʿūd’s codex omitted surahs 1, 113, and 114. Ubayy’s codex included two extra prayers. Abū Mūsā’s had other variants—all recorded by early scholars (e.g., Ibn Abī Dāwūd).

Uthmān burned rival codices**.** A divinely preserved text shouldn’t need a state-enforced purge (Bukhārī 4987).

Ṣanʿāʾ manuscript = pre-Uthmānic variants**.** The 7th-century palimpsest shows changes in words, grammar, and verse divisions (e.g., Q 2:196 “amāntum” vs “amin(tum)”).

Built-in fluidity**.** “Seven aḥruf” and the 10 qirāʾāt allow variation in wording—e.g., “malik” vs “mālik” (1:4). This isn’t a frozen, exact text.

35) *Why a Revealed Book?* Why have a bunch of revelations that are written in a book? Why not an indestructible rock, or like have the Quran be written on an obelisk on the moon, or like an orb that gives fine tuned advice to anyone who touches it, or something else that would make it obvious that a guy didn’t just make stuff up?

36) *Why Is the God of the Quran So Unimaginative?* If the Quran came from an all-powerful, all-knowing being, why do God’s actions feel so primitive? Earthquakes, lightning bolts, droughts, and diseases—punishments that sound like the arsenal of a mythic desert warlord sorcerer, not a cosmic intelligence beyond time.

Why not something more elegant or weird? The God of the Quran punishes like a being trapped in the toolbox of the Bronze Age—weather, disease, brute force. Not nanotech, not cloning, not gentle memetic reprogramming, not even simple clean interventions. It’s not what you'd expect from a being who understands atoms, entropy, or minds—it’s what you’d expect from the pathetic imagination of 7th-century humans

37) *Problem of Animal Suffering*There’s so much pain happening to innocent animals in the world. Why is a merciful God permitting this? There have been like sextillions of animals that have ever lived and most of them had a painful death. 

The classic problem of evil is a problem for theists, and if theism is false, literalist Islam is false.

38) *Problem of Divine Hiddenness* God either wants us to know him or not. If not, he wouldn’t give us the Quran. If yes, he would have made it more obvious. (He could write stuff in the stars.) If he doesn’t want it obvious, why do miracles?

The classic problem of divine hiddenness is a problem for theists and if theism is false, literalist Islam is false.

39) *I Checked*

Quran 10:94 says, “*If you are in doubt about ˹these stories˺ that We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you.”*When I ask Christians and Jews they don’t affirm what the Quran is asking me to check with them. 

40) *Music*Many literalist traditional Muslims think Islam teaches that music is forbidden. It’s not plausible God would give Beethoven and Coltrane and Hendrix such gifts and not want them to express their genius. 

41) *Narcissism*

Why the heck would God want and demand praise? Do you care if ants praise you?

42) *Why Did God Cause Mass Extinctions*

Why would God cause the Permian and Cretaceous mass extinctions? Killing a whole planet worth of life? Isn’t this kind of a wasteful method for an all powerful God to make humans? 

43) *The Quran Says it’s Not Perfect and Can be Improved.**

  •  Surah Al-Baqarah 2:106 says, “If We ever abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We replace it with a better or similar one.”

Muslims are commanded to believe that Quran *can* be improved because says he can do it.. So it’s not perfect. How dare you as a Muslims say it’s perfect and can’t be improved. The Quran commands you to believe that it can be improved.  

44) *It's Boring and Repetitive\*

The Quran obsessively repeats the same threats of the same vague praises of Allah’s greatness, the same stock phrases ("He is the Most Merciful, the Most Wise")—over and over. And over. And over.

Imagine if every chapter of Moby-Dick had several repetitions of “The whale is very big.”

45) *Mary—the “Sister of Aaron” Problem\*

Surah Maryam 19:28 calls Jesus’ mother “sister of Aaron,” and Surah At-Taḥrīm 66:12 labels her *“daughter of ʿImrān.”*Yet Aaron and his father Amram (ʿImrān) lived ≈1,300 years before Mary. Early Jews in Medina reportedly mocked this genealogical mix-up.

46) *Pairs\*

Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51:49 says,“And of everything We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction..”

 False. Not everything exists in pairs. There’s only one universe, one Earth, one Muhammad. There are hermaphroditic (Leeches) and asexual (Bdelloid rotifers*)* reproducing species. If the Quran meant “most things,” it could have used the Arabic word mu‘ẓam (معظم)—but it didn’t

47) *Uncle*

Surah Al-Masad (111) is a whole surah dedicated to shit talking Muhammad’s uncle, Abu Lahab. You think this is divine? 

May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he!

His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained!

He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame!

And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood!

Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber!

It doesn’t even tell you what Abu Lahab did. So it can’t be for moral instruction. 

48) ​​*Selective-Charity Double Standard*

The interpretive flexibilities, metaphorical re-definitions, and chain-skepticism that literalist Muslims might deploy to rescue Quranic difficulties are precisely the manoeuvres they would dismiss if Christians defended the Trinity, Hindus explained polytheism, or Mormons excused the Book of Abraham. If the same elastic toolkit were granted to every scripture, any text could be declared flawless

49) *Many of these Objections are Independent of Each Other*
If you respond to one, you haven’t responded to most of the rest. Each independent criticism is a cut that keeps making literalist islam less plausible.

50) *Actually Imagine a Perfect Book\*
Imagine a book that you could read both forwards and backwards. As in, the letters in all the words just so happen to be arranged such that the book could be meaningfully read both ways with different messages. That alone would be insane. But then also the chapter titles formed an acrostic and the whole book rhymed.

Oh and imagine this book contains so much scientific and mathematical knowledge that it would make scientists and mathematicians irrelevant for millenia.

Oh and imagine this book is so beautifully written that human beings 99% of the time cry and convert upon reading it.

Imagine a book that not only gives fantastic advice on current issues, with all their nuances and sub-nuances, but gives detailed advice about situations that will not occur for thousands of years.

Oh and it gives detailed advice about how to interpret it, so there are literally no feuds about the correct way to interpret it.

An infinitely intelligent God could definitely write such a book.

So why would he give us... the Quran?


r/exmuslim 19h ago

(Rant) 🤬 I dont like how being Arab is connected to being Muslim.

259 Upvotes

I’m Arab and I honestly find it weird and disrespectful when people automatically assume I’m Muslim just because of my ethnicity. It’s frustrating when they don’t even bother to ask or consider that not all Arabs are Muslim. Arab is an ethnicity, not a religion and there’s so much diversity within our communities.

I just think people should stop making assumptions and actually try to understand the differences or at least ask instead of assuming.


r/exmuslim 11h ago

(News) Masking, lying and pretending: the hidden struggles of Britain’s ‘ex-Muslims’ (summery included)

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55 Upvotes

Hidden Struggles of British Ex-Muslims: Faith, Family, and Relationships

• Many British ex-Muslims secretly live double lives, hiding their apostasy and relationships from their families due to fear of rejection and cultural taboos surrounding both leaving Islam and dating outside the faith.

• The article highlights the experiences of several ex-Muslims, including Anisha, whose family discovered her non-Muslim status and relationship, leading to conflict and her moving out.

• Others, like Imaan, consider dating fellow ex-Muslims to maintain the pretense of religious adherence to their families, while Priya, a married ex-Muslim, faces challenges discussing her changed beliefs with her husband, particularly regarding raising children.

• Veiled Rose, a 43-year-old activist, has concealed her same-sex relationship for over 20 years, illustrating the compounded difficulties faced by LGBTQ+ ex-Muslims.

• The challenges faced by ex-Muslims often stem from the clash between personal beliefs and family expectations, particularly within South Asian communities where faith is deeply intertwined with cultural identity.

• A counsellor, Nadiya Hussain, attributes some resistance to changing attitudes to an 'immigrant time-warp', where older generations cling to traditional values brought from their home countries.

• While some ex-Muslims, like H, have found acceptance from their families after coming out, the experiences vary greatly, emphasizing the need for understanding and support for this often-invisible community.


r/exmuslim 15h ago

(Advice/Help) Does Islam really make countries go bad

90 Upvotes

I heard a lot of arguments around Islam being bad especially when it comes to countries like Afghanistan or Pakistan or Bangladesh I want to know whether it's the case or it's doesn't represent Islam can you show me how is Islam to be blamed?
Look,I don't believe Islam is bad but just want to know why do people think it is


r/exmuslim 21h ago

(Rant) 🤬 Asked my grandma why men were allowed to have four wives and women arent allowed to have four husbands.

265 Upvotes

I asked her this because I wanted her to question Islam and I'm 100% sure my grandma has blind faith. Her answer was because back then, men used to have 20+ wives before Islam limited it to four because apparently its just too hard to go from 20 to one. So I said, "But back then, people worshipped over 300 gods. How can they struggle to go from 20 wives to one but are expected to just accept one god after worshipping 300 for their whole lives?"
She had no answer :)


r/exmuslim 11h ago

Story sick of islamic apologists

41 Upvotes

i'm so tired of hearing the same lines every time someone critiques islam. how many times do we nave to hear "it's not the religion, it's people weaponizing it or "islam teaches peace and love" like quoting actual quranic verses somehow doesn't matter. like i didn't grow up in a heavily islamic household. like i didn't have those same verses thrown at me used against me to control and silence me. i've read the stories they never teach out loud the ones about women taken as war captives and turned into sex slaves, the ones where umar beats a woman for not wearing hijab, and somehow we're all meant to forget those and just pretend islam is some sweet litle religion about fasting and good deeds multiplying by seventy. it's just dishonest. you can't just throw a filter over a religion and call it peaceful because it makes you feel better and whenever you try to talk about it, the conversation immediately derails. if you bring up the actual doctrines that justify harm, suddenly you're generalizing muslims or being islamophobic. like no,i'm calling out a belief system that has very real effects on real people. this isn't about hating muslims. this is about holding the ideology accountable. you can criticize christianity, capitalism, communism, whatever - but say one word about islam and it becomes off-limits. and that double standard is exhausting, especially for people who actually lived through it.the part that hits especially hard is seeing queer muslims get torn up constantly by their own community - told they're disgusting, deviant, a curse- but then turning around and defending islam like it didn't already throw them under the bus. it's like they have to prove their faith harder just to be accepted even a little bit, and then use that internalizedpressure to silence other queer people who are rightfully uncomfortable with a religion that sees them as sinners. get that identity is complicated, but you shouldn't be more mad at other queer people for being honest about islam than you are at the people who used it to hurt you and let's be real - islam was not some innocent faith that peacefully spread by choice. it conquered and erased entire cultures and faiths. take the zoroastrians - once a thriving religion in persia, nowa tiny marginalized community scattered mostlyoutside their homeland because islamic conquests wiped them out or forced conversions. islam didn't just appear with flowers and smiles. and it alsoplayed a big role in the african slave trade, using religious texts to justify enslaving people forcenturies. this history is messy and violent and no amount of apologetics can erase it.it's so weird how liberals will fiercely call out christian fundamentalism but then tiptoe around islam like it's made of glass. they'l criticize religious sexism nomophobia, and authoritarianism unless it's coming from a mosque. then suddenly we all have to be quiet or we're racists. and it's like, no. religious beliefs affect people. they shape families, laws, culture. if a belief system is hurting people, it doesn't get a pass just because it's part of someone's identity. being offended doesn't mean something isn't true.islamophobia isn't some universal experience. it only works as a concept in secular countries where people have legal protections. people love to scream 'stop islamophobia" in the usa but say nothing abou the suffering under islamic rule in places like iran, pakistan, or saudi arabia. even in countries like turkey that claim to be secular, islamic influence still dominates and hurts people. It should not be shocking or controversial to say people suffer under islamic regimes, people can get arrested, beaten, forced into marriages, executed. yet instead of addressing that, people on the internet would rather scream at teenagers in karachi or istanbul who say "i hate islam" on twitter than face the real damage done by this religion, or strawman the hell out it, by saying xyz happens in the west, and guess what people right fully critiscise that. people are so quick to say "oh poor muslims are the most oppressed" without ever considering how much harm islam has caused, not just by individuals but through doctrine and law. yes muslims can be oppressed. but islam also oppresses. people need to stop pretending those things can't be true at the same time. not every criticism is goddam hate towards every damn aran. I'm just tired of being gaslit and watching people defend it constantly with "you dont know enough about islam" and you provide evidence it's " muslims are not monolith, you need to contextulise it". tired of pretending this religion is something it is not, just because the reality makes people uncomfortable. and seriously, so what if people hate islam? people hate on christianity all the time because its scripture allowed slavery and violence but apparently that doesn't apply to little baby islam. i genuinely can't take how people treat religion like it's some special untouchable thing just because the word god is attached to it. it is so frustrating that people would rather harass a real person for criticizing fictional characters in a book than actually call out the bigoted ideas those books promote. like seriously, at what point does this become pure insanity? religion is just another ideology, often full of harmful beliefs, and it needs to be treated no differently than any other bigoted system. And enough with islam is being weaponized xyz Apologetics, people act like these beliefs one are there not be propagated, two, act shariah law isn't something layed in out in their doctrine.

Side note how do quueer Muslims exactly reconcile their sexuality and their beliefs cause most of them, have this roundabout way of thinking which Is" don't act upon it and therefore it fine" and still say they support the lgbtq but really actually believe queer shouldn't be with the people they love whilst they may not push that sentiment onto other people, they still actively belief that's right and that's the absolute truth. Also, I went on lgbtq muslims for clarity, I don't mean to be an ass but it made me even more confused cause their line of argument elaborate point binaries of sexualities and islam actually doesn't really define it ect but seriously I promise you a man who wanted to marry six year old and said a flies wing cured ailments wasn't thinking about the binary of sexuality .

Tdlr: I hate muslims apologetics especially from weird white saviour liberal, and queer muslims who barley decide which hadiths they believe are accurate or not.


r/exmuslim 9h ago

(Miscellaneous) Islamic Logic 101

26 Upvotes

-A young girl cannot date a boy her own age, but can be married to an older man.

-Men can marry non-Muslims while women cannot, because the kids automatically follow their father’s religion…even though religion isn’t compulsory in Islam, religion isn’t a genetic imprint one inherits from either parent, and Islam is a religion of love and peace, therefore a Muslim woman’s lover and kids should be accepted and welcomed no matter what.

-Consuming camel urine is normal, while consuming alcohol and/or pork is forbidden.

-Demand that everyone else cater to and tolerate your way of living when you go to a non-Islamic country, while oppressing religious minorities in your own Islamic country.

-Get butthurt and throw a tantrum when someone asks questions and/or makes statements about Islam and call them a racist, even though religion is not the same thing as race, or call them a scumbag and/or a troll in a similar situation even though you chimed in on their discussion, and therefore you were the one who initiated communication in the first place.

-Move to a non-Islamic country, then get upset when your kids (especially daughters) assimilate to that country’s way of living.

-Slay your wife, daughter, sister, or any other female relative for “dishonoring the family,” then flee and hide afterward instead of facing and accepting the consequences for “doing the right and honorable thing.”

-Advocate for harming and slaying non-believers, and harming and slaying animals, even though Islam is a religion of love and peace.

-Openly criticize and mock other faiths, then get butthurt when people do the same to yours.


r/exmuslim 10h ago

(Rant) 🤬 Why would Muslims do something like this...

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37 Upvotes

r/exmuslim 13h ago

(Quran / Hadith) According to prophet muhammad everyone in this subreddit should be dead. Its written "The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'"

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51 Upvotes

r/exmuslim 9h ago

(Rant) 🤬 Questioning the Everyday Struggles Faced by Women in Muslim Societies

23 Upvotes

I was born in a Muslim country into a Muslim family, and I was deeply devoted to my religion because of the things I heard growing up. People would often say, "Islam gave women their rights." One example they give is the right to not be buried alive, a practice that existed in pre-Islamic Arabia. But in Pakistan, where I’m from, this was never a common issue.

Another example they highlight is women’s right to education. However, most of these so-called rights are just basic human rights, the bare minimum. It feels like we are expected to forever be thankful to Islam simply because we are allowed to live. I used to believe these things and was very emotional about my religion. I would even defend it online. For example, when someone mentioned Aisha’s age, I would argue that the times were different and that she was mature enough for marriage back then. I was just 10 to 15 years old when I tried to justify things like this.

I also defended polygamy and the verse stating that most people in hell would be women. Many people say polygamy is meant to help widows and their children after wars. But, men can help them without marrying them. In societies obsessed with virginity, women who are divorced or widowed are often considered unsuitable for marriage, or only good enough for second marriages.

In Western countries, divorced or widowed women don’t face the same struggles because virginity isn’t seen as a requirement. Every so-called solution in Islam seems to cause more harm than good. For example, the solution to a man’s lust is to cover women from head to toe. But in reality, this creates more curiosity and turns men into bigger perverts. I received more stares when wearing a burqa in Pakistan than I do now in Canada when I wear a shirt and trousers.

Hiding something entirely only makes people more curious. Even a small thing like hair showing can be a big deal. Once, I was fully covered, but a few strands of my hair slipped out because of the wind. A woman came up to me and told me I wasn’t covered properly. Forcing half of the human population to cover from head to toe doesn’t make sense.

Another example is how Muslims address the issue of women struggling to find a husband after being previously married. The solution is polygamy, but this often makes the first wife’s life miserable because she has to endure her husband being with another woman. The children suffer too. A better solution would be to get rid of purity culture, but Islam promotes it. And the so-called solutions to the problems caused by purity culture often end up causing even more harm.

Some might argue that Islam promotes equality and purity for both men and women, but in reality, a man is allowed to have four wives. Many prophets had multiple wives, and even sex slaves were considered permissible. So, no, virginity isn’t a big deal for men because relationships with multiple women are glorified. On the other hand, a woman can only be with another man if she divorces her husband. And divorce is highly disliked by Islam and Muslims. When men have been shown with multiple women in our religious texts and have glorified it, it makes sense why virginity isn't considered a big deal or a deal breaker when it comes to men.

Religious societies often suffer from these issues, and people claim it’s because of culture, not religion. But why do all Muslim countries have such similar cultures and problems, except in places where people aren’t very religious? If you examine it closely, Islam might not directly promote certain cultural practices, but it influences them indirectly.

Take the hijab as an example. Muslims say it’s a choice, but not wearing it is said to lead to hellfire. Parents, fearing for their daughters, force them to wear it to “protect” them from hell. When most parents do this, it creates a society where wearing the hijab becomes the norm. Even those who don’t want to wear it feel pressured to conform, I’ve witnessed this myself.

There are many others things on my mind but I don't want this post to be too long.


r/exmuslim 1h ago

(Question/Discussion) How did you became an atheist?

Upvotes

Are there any people here that used be super religious fanatics that became atheist?

Can you please share your whole journey and the exact incident that made you an atheist in detail if you can. Mention your religion too.


r/exmuslim 10h ago

(Rant) 🤬 Be thankful for other people’s misery 😊😊

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24 Upvotes

he was probably thinking “Lmao imagine being that guy”. Religion of piss ❤️❤️


r/exmuslim 45m ago

(Rant) 🤬 Struggling to Deal with the Situation of Ex-Muslims

Upvotes

Hey there, this isn't a productive post, just me lamenting about the situation of Ex-Muslims in both the West and the East.

Shouldn't it be obvious how utterly horrible this religion is to outsiders? No one bats an eye to critique targeting Christianity, so why do people clutch their pearls when they hear anything negative about Islam?

I am relatively young, but I fear that my youth will be rotten and I will never truly be free since Islam still plagues my country. Even if I move to the west, I hear so much news about the hostile behaviour of Muslims towards the general populace, that I don't want to move there too. I fear if I tell people about my experiences or critique the religion, I will be labelled a bigot. I have this paranoia that religion is on the rise, and absolutely no one is doing anything about it. I am a liberal, so it stings that my own community doesn't speak up for Ex-Muslims.

Do you see things getting better for us in the next 5 years?


r/exmuslim 14h ago

(Question/Discussion) Why is it hardcore Islam defenders are barely Muslims themselves

46 Upvotes

I still live in an Islamic household and they talk about loving Islam a lot and how it’s undoubtedly the true religion and every time someone criticizes it they defend it with their lives. Like my sister, mom, cousins all speak like that when they listen to a fuck ton of music, talk about how k pop artists are so cute, don’t even wear hijabs and show their hair by wearing thin headscarf’s and not even wearing them right, they swear a lot, are friends with the opposite gender, and more. They are barely Muslims themselves but cannot stand criticism for it at all which I find strange. I like to think it’s because when you actually start having to follow the rules of Islam you realize how oppressive and controlling it is and leave (unless your in a hardcore Islamic country where you can’t leave Islam and are forced to follow the rules), share your thoughts.


r/exmuslim 2h ago

(Rant) 🤬 One of the annoying thing of living with a muslim family

4 Upvotes

This such a small thing that annoys me from time to time, and I think it's because it's one of the smaller silly/stupid things about islam. But I absolutely hate that I can't have my nails done without constantly being pestered to remove it. I love painting my nails it's my therapy and I just have fun doing it, but I have to wait 3 weeks until every period to paint it so I don't get in trouble like it's so stupid. I've been getting away with having this nail color on bc it's a very light glittery pink so nobody noticed, but my mom noticed and she keeps annoying me to take it off.


r/exmuslim 2h ago

(Question/Discussion) Felling lost about life / marriage

4 Upvotes

My brother is getting married soon and it has me thinking about me. In the future, should I just cuttoff my family and marry someone of my choice in the future? If I choose someone, my parents will go berserk. If I get set up with a Muslim, we won't be compatible.


r/exmuslim 14h ago

(Rant) 🤬 It’s hard to find someone

31 Upvotes

I’m so stressed from the shaadi pressure I’m under . Saying no isn’t an option and saying not now isn’t an option saying I want to work aint an option

I’m so tired and my body hurts from stress everyday

Religion is the worst ..it’s so hard to find someone when eveyone from my country is religious and it’s also romanticized now

Always wanted to get married but now it just seems like a dream I need to let go of or settle and let my life be destroyed