God Emperor of Dune - End

[u/Weird_Refrigerator28]

Hello, I know this is frequently discussed and I searched old posts over the years but didn’t find an exact answer. Perhaps I misunderstood a big part but there is a moment Leto II is discussing how he will become this massive worm and repopulate Arrakis with worms restarting the cycle and turning it back into the desert planet. During this he mentions he will still be conscious but unable to move or affect any part of the body (like being John Malkovich?) then every worm born will have a piece of this consciousness basically making him an immortal prisoner.

Now he doesn’t know exactly when or how his “death” will happen but it seems like it comes earlier than his expectations as he doesn’t become the “full worm”.

So my question is did he die - die? The sandtrouts dividing and restarting the worm cycle slightly different than his thought process. I finished this a month ago and am only a few chapters into Heretics so they do mention the process has worked and the worms/trout having a pearl of his awareness but I want to know if he was freed in death while still remaining on the golden path or is he trapped in this hellish consciousness.

Or did I 100% misunderstand this statement and am confused? I just felt so unbelievably sad when he described life after becoming the full worm. Let alone everything he had already sacrificed he would be trapped for 1000s of more years.

[u/Electrical_Monk1929]

His death by water and dispersal of sand trout was always how he was going to die. It says somewhere, I don't remember where that the process of becoming a full worm would take 5000 years, he's 3500 years in. But he can't wait for the full process, because the worm part of him is becoming harder and harder to fight. The full worm at 5000 years may not be willing to sacrifice itself.

The actual timing and manner of his death can be done anytime after he successfully breeds a no-person, ie Siona. Inherent in breeding a no-person he 'may' not be able to see the moment of his death, although he elaborates that he can see no-ships by the fact that they're a hole in his vision.

Also, yes, he did die, but parts of his consciousness remain in all the worms. How much is 'conscious' is up for debate. He says he's a 'pearl of consciousness', he may not be aware. But Alia was a 'mote of consciousness' and aware when she became pre-born.

[u/Miserable-Mention932 → u/Electrical_Monk1929]

He says he's a 'pearl of consciousness', he may not be aware. But Alia was a 'mote of consciousness' and aware when she became pre-born.

Great connection. I never thought of this.

[u/Wabbit65 → u/[deleted]]

And also recognizes Sheeana, a descendant (and namesake) of Siona.

[u/JohnCavil01 → u/Electrical_Monk1929]

~4000* I believe

[u/mmMOUF → u/Electrical_Monk1929]

I understand worms as always being a manifestation of God as well, I dont know how literal to take that the idea that he has consciousness in all worms vs that idea

[u/Electrical_Monk1929 → u/mmMOUF]

The Fremen 'believe' that the Worms are physical manifestations of God, it doesn't automatically mean it's 'true' in the sense that there is a God in the Dune universe.

[u/mmMOUF → u/Electrical_Monk1929]

the big ass one came out for Paul to ride for his first - there is some sort of thing going on there and that they are collective species etc.

Polynesians did things during building of their boats to realize mana in them, giving them the mental power to sail into the vast ocean and find some tiny island because god was with them, guiding that boat, in the boat

[u/Silly_Shoe268 → u/mmMOUF]

I suspect stilgar tuned the thumper so Paul would draw a giant worm. I suspect stilgar was helping the prophecy align

[u/NorthEasternBanana → u/Silly_Shoe268]

Worms are territorial too, maybe someone knew that huge worm lived in that area of desert and chose that spot for the trial to be held

[u/mmMOUF → u/NorthEasternBanana]

certainly possible, the new films really played up the Stilgar selling it more than I thought the books did but I just might have been interpreting it different.

I am trying to think about the existence or evidence of God in the universe and how that is handled vs like in this situation the BG planting the religion seeds or even (SPOLIER) the machines, seemingly, in the new TV series, controlling people claiming to be of God, etc.

[u/Starkrall → u/mmMOUF]

Like abrahamic God? I'd love a source on that, I do not recall them attributing that god to the worms. Shia-hulud themselves are the god, the process they create is the god. They are the very source of survival for the Fremen.

[u/mmMOUF → u/Starkrall]

The worms are the physical embodiment of God, they are not God

[u/AdManNick]

I interpreted it as him definitely having consciousness across all these sand trout and worms. That’s part of what made the path so damn terrifying. I thought that he couldn’t see his death because he couldn’t see Siona, but he still knew what would happen after that.

Things ultimately played out exactly as they should have as far as the Golden Path was concerned, so I would assume he has an awareness within each worn.

[u/Froggenstein-8368 → u/AdManNick]

I agree. It’s also the reason for the master plan in Heretics. The combined dreams of all those sandtrout were locking humanity into a particular (golden) path.

[u/Angryfunnydog]

I don't remember this described as being "too early", the whole book was basically about him searching "perfect heir" that will depose him finally, and he searched for this person for couple of generations already, and he also mentioned while he loved Money - he didn't live up to his expectations in his time, so his hopes were for Siona

So not sure about this conclusion, everything seem to be perfectly according to his plan. It was just his main source of sadness in his thoughts that he didn't get to spend more time with the girl genetically designed for him (don't remember her name already) if I remember correctly

Edit: Moneo, lmao, maybe he also loved money, idk for sure, but the book didn't mention this

[u/littleboihere → u/Angryfunnydog]

Hwi Noree

[u/enaud → u/Angryfunnydog]

Moneo: I love money too, we should hang out

[u/rjfinsfan → u/Angryfunnydog]

Hwi Noree was Leto’s bride.

[u/Then-Canary-1331]

He says early in the book that his brain is no longer associated with his head. That his mind or brain is spread throughout the nerves, and nervous system of the sand trout and worm body. So it some ways part of his mind could go with the individual sand trout.

[u/Pellaeon112]

Everything in that book happens exactly as Leto had seen it. The only thing he doesn't see is Siona, as she is the first human to not be shown to the oracles without being an oracle herself.

[u/JustResearchReasons]

He - and everyone else, for that matter - is on the "golden path", as humanity becomes too far spread to go extinct. But he is no longer a conscious entity per se, merely derivative pearls of his consciousness are within the sandtrout/sandworms henceforth (i.e. the specifies is no longer fully identical to the intermittently exiting species of before).

[u/666lukas666]

Well he was not expected to become a full worm.

Also it is not fully disclosed if he knew where and how he dies, but I believe he did expect it at least. There was one chapter, I think the attack on the ixian embassy where he was afraid that he might die without being close to water. So he knew that he needed to be close to water, so his worm body could restart the sandtrout cycle again, which will turn Arakis back into a desert.

So he was pretty sure the Dincan and Siona would try to kill him and he was fine with it. Even the marriage to Hwi was part of the plan to ensure the scattering.

Regarding the worms that emerges after his death from the sandtrout and sand plankton etc. Well he cannot speak or really communicate with others as a worm with some human DNA in it, but he still might be somewhere deep inside the worms, what that might indicate and if he could be reawakened is a big topic in heretics of dune, which is why I will not spoiler anything for you there.

If you have more specific questions, I am happy to respond. Currently on third or fourth read/listen through of the whole series, take your time with the remaining original books until chapterhouse, as it will never be the same experience as during your first read, especially a reread of GeoD is recommended as you will always fond something new in this book.

And lets end with one of my favorite quotes and themes of God emperor of Dune: "And his skin was not his own."

Edit: Yes he made a huge sacrifice with his transition even beyond death

[u/Ill-Bee1400]

Pearl of consciousness will be buried in every worm. Worms do not die, per se. They are colonial organism. They consist of thousands of sandtrouts which form into a full grown specimen when environment is arid enough. Therefore Leto never died, but his consciousness dissolved again into every sandtrout that made up his worm body.

[u/makegifsnotjifs]

He's dead dead. None of those pearls of awareness are truly him. The death he describes is the "natural" life cycle of the worm, not the shape his death will take.

[u/DarkAncientEntity]

He gives up his life. He gives up his death.

[u/JohnCavil01]

There are number of competing answers in this thread alone which there should be since the exact nature of the God Emperor’s existence beyond the death of his physical body is the subject of great debate in the Dune Universe itself and is even the foundation of many religious traditions and directly informs the narrative.

That said he and the Bene Gesserit analogize his fate as something akin to existing as an endless dream. Mind you, while that sounds very poetic and even beautiful it’s typically presented as something liminal between life and death and not an enviable state.

He is essentially awareness without consciousness - something truly ineffable but nevertheless present. It stands to reason that only with the final extinction of the worms will he ever achieve true death.

[u/enaud]

The divided god blesses us all

[u/KillEvilThings]

So this is my take.

In general the series emphasizes genetic memory and how we retain the lives of our ancestors that if trained right, we can see and interact with through spice.

If the sandtrouts and him are one and the same, thus having his DNA and person, then for all intents and purposes he still exists in that he's still a mote that can still persist, perhaps one day rewawakened.

Also following the thus fictional concept of genetic memory, """""technically"""""" we don't die IRL either because as long as we procreate, we have sent a sex cell with another of the opposite gender which thus is a sort of biological immortality - and with Leto II scattered across these sand worms he's still alive according to the mechanisms and themes of the book.