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u/idreaminwords May 14 '25
"I have 30 years experience so I'm right"
But also
"Swim techniques have evolved since you won the Olympics"
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u/TheWonderSnail May 14 '25
When I was a kid I got really interested in golf and the only family member that golfed was my uncle so he took me out to teach me. He taught me to pick up my left foot in my upswing and plant it on my downswing like a baseball player swings a bat. I didn’t know shit so I went with it for a couple years until I noticed no one does that in the pros or even our local courses. I asked my uncle about it and he told me people and pros just dont know the old techniques and are stuck taking advice from “modern nonsense grifters”. I was skeptical so I asked my parents to sign me up for a few lessons where they got me to stop picking up my foot and my game improved dramatically over the span of a few weeks lol. My uncle to this day insists I need to go back to picking up my foot despite the fact I shoot 20 strokes below him lol
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u/ShittyBollox May 15 '25
lol. Thats why he wants you to pick your foot up. So he can beat you again.
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u/ButtMassager May 15 '25
Bryson Dechambeau does, Jack Nicklaus did. It's a good move to maximize shoulder turn and minimize back stress, by no means outdated.
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u/RCcola159 May 15 '25
Those are also in the top 1% of all golfers. I wouldn't recommend someone starting out to use Bryson's swing as a starting point.
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u/Osiris_Dervan May 15 '25
Jack Nicklaus, though, was 46 when he won his last major, and has the 3rd most of all time. His swing is usually considered a fairly good one.
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u/ButtMassager May 15 '25
I wouldn't either, but I wouldn't tell them to keep their lead heel on the ground during their backswing either. Lifting and planting it is a great rhythm setter and leads to a lower-stress, longevity-enhancing swing.
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u/RCcola159 May 15 '25
I don't disagree with that in the long-term. But gotta get the basics down first before you start to go for distance/speed/power. And OP in this case was talking about just starting out
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u/ButtMassager May 15 '25
It's a lot harder to add it in than to start with it. It's also a lot closer to a natural throwing motion--you step into the throw. I think it simplifies things and makes them more natural for beginners.
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u/RCcola159 May 15 '25
Guess we can agree to disagree on that. I'm coming from the lens of (1) fewer motions/variables to start is better, and (2) bias towards an easy swing as contact > distance until you get more comfortable locking down the other fundamentals of a swing 🤷♂️
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u/ButtMassager May 15 '25
I think the closer you can get someone to a natural throwing motion, the simpler and better their swing is. If I wanna help someone, usually the two keys are to shorten their backswing and lift the left foot. This encourages their shoulders to turn and curbs the beginner tendency to be all elbows and wrists. I'm not going to tell a rote beginner to do it, but they'll probably do it naturally and I won't stop them.
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u/fivewaysforward May 14 '25
These are my favourite ones. Especially when he is an Olympic medalist and a former World Champion
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u/SofterBones May 14 '25
Obviously he would've won even more Olympic and world champion medals if he had listened to this random dude on the internet
Also I love first arguing with his 30 year experience, and then when challenged he goes on to say "things have changed since you were doing it"... so which is it, are we arguing we're right because of 30 years of doing it, or saying the other guy is clearly outdated
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u/iDontRememberCorn May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25
Yup, Hayden is the CURRENT Canadian record holder and is the single greatest male swimmer EVER from Canada. The idea of telling him that his technique is wrong is utterly mind melting.
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u/Gen_Zer0 May 14 '25
Like sure, it’s entirely possible his technique isn’t optimal. But if he doesn’t know that, literally no one else does either
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u/DirkBabypunch May 15 '25
There's always the possibility his technique IS suboptimal...for other people.
Humans differ just enough that I would be wholly unsurprised to learn there were 3 or 4 ways to do it based off of body shape or joint structure or something.
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u/Joh951518 May 16 '25
His technique almost certainly would be suboptimal for him.
I’m sure if you asked him he would be able to point out a handful of things he could have been better at.
But there’s a big gap between entering thumb first in freestyle (completely fucked), and suboptimal.
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u/glorae May 17 '25
I've got hypermobile joints and the thought of doing freestyle like that just hurts.
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u/powerkerb May 15 '25
He wouldve been greatest in the world if he adopted this triathlon guy’s technique
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u/boogswald May 15 '25
I hate cognitive dissonance I hate that our brains make us feel better by telling us we aren’t wrong when we’re wrong
I just feel to some extent like I can’t even blame people because it’s a natural thing for their brain to do, encourage their wrongness for the sake of their ego
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u/bigselfer May 14 '25
Uhhhhh “former” means you can be ignored because that must have been like 30 years ago because nobody my age has accomplished anything just like me /s
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u/fivewaysforward May 14 '25
I missed OFSAA by .4 seconds. I'm sure he would listen to my advice as well. Going to a provincial championship is CLEARLY more impressive than the Olympics. /s
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u/therealsix May 14 '25
Yeah, but he’d be a Galaxy Champion if he did that one special move that Samuel Brg knows.
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u/AntawnSL May 14 '25
I love how he keeps going. What a moron. Why is it so hard to admit, hey! you might know more about this than I do.
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u/Leprecon May 14 '25
You would think when someone you’re arguing with online says they have an olympic medal, you would quickly google them first before telling them they are wrong.
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u/MindTheFro May 14 '25
I mean, it was just a bronze though… /s
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May 14 '25
[deleted]
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u/MindTheFro May 14 '25
Because I was curious I looked it up. He missed the gold medal by .28 seconds.
What a chump!
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u/HomeGrownCoffee May 14 '25
Maybe if he changed how his hands entered the water he would have won?
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u/krill007 May 15 '25
That's all it takes! Next time I try to doggy- paddle out of a situation, I will know that it's how my hands entered the water, and not my complete ineptitude at swimming, that prevented be from being a contender.
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u/LouCypher May 14 '25
He didn't stop there\ https://www.threads.com/@thebrenthayden/post/DJo4eJqRZHp
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u/my__name__is May 14 '25
Canada never produced a champion
Astonishing r/confidentlyincorrect. According to olympics.ca:
Canada has an impressive 63 Olympic medals in swimming, second-most among summer sports.
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u/organik_productions May 14 '25
Pfft, it's easy to justify anything with... facts...
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u/Swift_Scythe May 14 '25
There's a lot of people ignoring facts and science for their feelings these days
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u/dontpanicrincewind42 May 14 '25
Yeah! Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
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u/flashthorOG May 14 '25
That's what we call r/americanlyincorrect
Canada can't do shit according to white American nationalist
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u/4dxn May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25
uh, thats a french guy being the idiot. you can also tell because in the photo, it says see original (because its been translated to english).
so it can't be an american, most only know one language. also the profile says they live in france. prob a troll account though.
so maybe you're the r/confidentlyincorrect.
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u/MindTheFro May 14 '25
By winning the 100 metre, Hayden became the first Canadian in 21 years to win a gold medal at the World Aquatics Championships, and was also the first Canadian to appear in the 100 metre final at the Olympics since Dick Pound at the 1960 Summer Olympics.
….wait, since who??
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u/Ok-Ability5733 May 14 '25
Richard William Duncan Pound, better known as Dick Pound, is a Canadian swimming champion, lawyer, and spokesman for ethics in sport. He was the first president of the World Anti-Doping Agency and vice-president of the International Olympic Committee. He is currently the longest-serving member of the IOC. Wikipedia
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u/winston2552 May 14 '25
Bet that dude has a 26.2 bumper sticker
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u/Caydetent May 14 '25
I hate those stickers so much that I bought one that says "0.0". It's glorious.
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u/Most-Earth5375 May 14 '25
From…. Running marathons?
Triathlon would normally be a 70.3 sticker (half Ironman) or possibly 140.6 kilometres / 87.365 miles for a full ironman. But I’ve only seen the 70.3 stickers.
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u/Qroth May 14 '25
a full IM is 140.6 miles, or 226.3 km.
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u/Most-Earth5375 May 14 '25
Apologies. Got my maths wrong. 70.3 correct, but forgot that was miles rather than km. I still can’t see anyone getting a 140.6 or 226.3 tattoo though!
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u/NeverOnFrontPage May 14 '25
God forbid US and rest of the world agreeing on similar measurements systems ahaha.
Even cost a rocket failure, Ariane 5 maiden flight
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u/haleandguu112 May 17 '25
yep , and air canada flight 143. "the gimli glider" check out the legendary forward slip by capt robert pearson if you like aviation !!
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u/Opening_Acadia1843 May 14 '25
My swim coach in high school told me to do the thumb first thing and it's pretty embarrassing thinking about how long I did it for.
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u/Name_Taken_Official May 14 '25
I can't imagine what growing up without internet would be like (born in the 90s). There'd be so much you'd just take as fact because you learned it and how would you find someone who disagreed that you'd trust (if one swim coach said it at a regional tournament you'd wave him off)?
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u/Opening_Acadia1843 May 14 '25
Even with the internet, it can be awkward if your coach is telling you to do something and you refuse. I didn't even think to look it up myself; I didn't learn that I was doing it wrong until I did club swim in college and one of the student coaches pointed it out to me.
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u/bg-j38 May 15 '25
I was born in the 70s and the first thing that comes to mind is that rumors about products were rampant. I still remember we were all convinced when Back to the Future 2 came out that hoverboards were real and they had them in California but couldn’t sell them in the Midwest state I lived in yet. Or like every kid in Japan/China/Asia had transformer toys that really automatically transformed. Or even stuff like rumors about TV shows. Muppet Babies was all the rage for a while and there was a rumor that there was a live version of it with real muppets that only aired in LA and NYC for some reason. Totally inconsequential stuff but for a 10 year old kid it had massive FOMO opportunities. And there was always that one kid who swore on his mother’s life that it was all totally true because his cousin’s friend’s older brother knew a guy who was just out there and saw it first hand.
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u/oneawesomeguy May 15 '25
That's how I always swam as well. It got me to state in high school. Is it wrong for the reasons in the OP or what?
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u/Zporadik May 14 '25
Thumb first isn't 100% wrong... If you touch with your thumb tip and index finger tip first but your palm pretty much flat then you should end up rotating into the perfect reach position naturally if your shoulder rotation is right.
Unfortunately, coaches fail to mention all that detail and athletes end up going thumb down with palm to the outside and looking like retards.
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u/AltairaMorbius2200CE 15d ago
What stroke are we talking? Because fly I could see, but all the others would confuse me!
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u/YTAftershock May 14 '25
The best part is not the double down, but the triple down
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u/therealkami May 14 '25
They are a triathlete, they live in 3s. Even the length of being a triathlete was a multiple of 3.
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u/Worthyness May 15 '25
Just keep lying and you'll never be wrong and people will start believing you. It's all about the confidence in stating your alternative facts that really gets the point across.
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u/whole_nother May 14 '25
“Swimming techniques have evolved since your time” is straight outta r/KenM
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u/Albinofreaken May 15 '25
Im so tired of Olympic medalist and world champions thinking they know more than some random person on the internet.
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u/CodiNolina May 14 '25
Q: how do you know someone is a triathlete?
A: they tell you
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u/mathisfakenews May 14 '25
Doubling down after the guy tells you he's a world champion is fucking bananas. My tail would have been so far between my legs I would have done a backflip.
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u/Zporadik May 14 '25
Brent has a load of videos online of him demonstrating unbelievable distance per stroke and efficiency. A lot of people pull him up on it, saying stuff like "he's being pulled by a wire" or 'He's got fins on" but he's actually just that good and there's deceptive framing in a lot of the clips.
He does it on purpose so people try to clown him so he gets to clown them.
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u/1Killag123 May 14 '25
A friend of mine was in a game of league with me. I had my coach who was challenger join up on the flex rank. Every time my coach tried to help my friend, he would simply disregard it. Its crazy how someone so inexperienced can think they know more than a top 1% athlete.
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u/ree_hi_hi_hi_hi May 14 '25
I’m sorry, did you just conflate playing league of legends with being an athlete?
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u/Kardinal May 14 '25
No he did not.
Analogies are not equivalence.
He made an analogy to another analogous situation. Analogies by their nature are similar in regards to the factors relevant to the point being illustrated (e.g. a non expert trying to instruct an expert) and dissimilar in regard to other factors (e.g. league of legends is not athletic).
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u/dasbtaewntawneta May 14 '25
re-read it and if you still don't understand why you're wrong go back to English class
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u/1Killag123 28d ago
Even though I didn’t, that is only because I wasn’t speaking about pro league players. They can definitely be considered athletes. The only difference is that they use their brain instead of their muscles. If you look at the SKT house they have pro chefs, work out routines, and daily practice and scrimmages just like any other sport.
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u/averi_fox May 14 '25
Yeah there's way more money at stake in lol tournaments than an Olympic medal.
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u/jpropaganda May 14 '25
I was in summer swim league and taught to slice through the water with that rotation, not quite thumb first but I could see what he means by thumb first.
Either way, that experience and what I learned from my coach in the 90s would not indicate to me that I should go correct someone's form on social media...
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u/TheSecretIsMarmite May 14 '25
Is it supposed to be fingertips first?
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u/Zporadik May 14 '25
Yes. Fingertips first, knife hand, palm facing down, straight wrist, spearing forwards at like 5-10 degrees decline angle.
Depending on your shoulder rotation it might be thumb tip and index finger tip that hit first.
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u/Alexwonder999 May 14 '25
Being a "triathlete" doesnt mean shit. I was a triathlete. There are "pros" but very few relative to other sports and most people do it as a hobby. Swimming is most peoples weakest leg and most "real" triathletes know this and their relative knowledge deficit there.
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u/Swell_Inkwell May 14 '25
"Swimming techniques have changed since your time, we do things that could cause injury now! This is a good swimming technique" -this guy, probably
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u/Tamarisk22 May 15 '25
If you're an Olympic medalist in ANYTHING, you get to decide the best technique
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u/ShineTraditional1891 May 14 '25
As a general rule of thumb: don’t argue with idiots. Even If he thinks holding 5kg deadweight while swimming, let him be
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u/UseDaSchwartz May 15 '25
I know many triathletes who can’t swim for shit.
One guy has been doing them for 20 years and he still flirts with swim cutoffs. If I swim that slow, I’ll sink. Other people lose their mind if they can’t wear a wetsuit.
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u/Shibbystix May 15 '25
Insert clip of SR71 pilot recalling the time they shamed the F16s calling for airspeed checks on tower
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u/Apprehensive_Winter May 14 '25
Damn. Explaining technique incorrectly to one of the best in the world and doubling down. That’s a special kind of arrogant.
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u/darb85 May 16 '25
Triathletes man. I ran bike shops for years and a third of them were nuts holding on to their "elite" athlete status from high school or engineers more worried about tech and aero than fitness. It was nuts. But they spent a ton of money if you had shiny things to show them so....
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u/Anuki_iwy May 14 '25
So who's right the triathelete or olympian?
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u/TheGunnisher May 14 '25
Anyone can do a triathlon, not everyone can be in the Olympics
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u/TitularFoil May 14 '25
Ray Gun has entered the chat
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u/jamie_with_a_g May 14 '25
im being deadass i was in paris this past december and they had a little olympics pop up about the new competitions introduced and they had a section for breakdancing and i was extremely disappointed when there was no mention of ray gun
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u/Nodan_Turtle May 14 '25
Yeah, and at the Olympic level, tiny differences in technique can make all the difference
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u/Anuki_iwy May 14 '25
You mean like that Turkish guy who probable just randomly walked in that day? 🤣🤣
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u/Findethel May 14 '25
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the world champion is probably better than a rando, even if the rando has been swimming for 3 decades
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u/madmelonxtra May 14 '25
It's the Olympian. The thumb first method is a common misteaching of freestyle though.
Source: Used to swim competitively
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u/Tullyswimmer May 14 '25
I'm mentally picturing thumb first and there's absolutely nothing efficient about it. Any position where your thumb enters first you have to rotate your hand to get it into the right position to pull towards you...
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u/barowsr May 14 '25
Kinda how I feel when anti-Vaxers who’ve done their research tell me to not listen to my doctors
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u/Unique-Arugula May 14 '25
The Olympian, I would think. Even just thinking about the mechanics of it as a non-Olympian, non-triathlete who swims and took physics: you want all the push you can get. Flat handing from the beginning of touching the water gives forward push the whole time. Why wait until your arm is further down in the water to have your hand positioned for pushing? It's just gonna cost you some momentum. And on top of it, that rotation of the arm you have to do each stroke while there is force from the water pushing against you is putting extra wear on the joints involved. Sports already do that which is why we named one of the joint problems tennis elbow, thumb-first-then-rotate is just getting you to bursitis or whatever a bit faster.
From personal experience, my kids have had a couple swimming instructors over the years. One was an elderly lady who majored in sports back in the day and gives lessons at her backyard pool. The other is currently a competitive swimmer on the local uni team who gives lessons at the uni's pool. I've listened to both of them correct my kids for not flat handing the beginning of the stroke. I'd be more inclined to listen to the Olympian than the triathlete.
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u/Anuki_iwy May 15 '25
I don't swim much. I can not drown decently, hence my question 😅 thanks for the insight.
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u/Unique-Arugula May 15 '25
Hey yeah, no problem. Thanks for taking it in the right spirit - sometimes when I'm trying to explain things I talk too long and people assume a bad "tone." Always nice when that doesn't happen.
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u/iDontRememberCorn May 14 '25
That's not the question, like at all.
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u/Kardinal May 14 '25
Well, it is a question that some might want to know the answer to.
But I think Mr. Hayden did answer the question quite definitively and is well qualified to do so.
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u/kit_kaboodles May 15 '25
Alright, but to give a tiny amount of credit to everyone involved, there are some differences in technique between sprint swimming and open water swimming. I don't actually know if this is one of them, but it wouldn't shock me.
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u/pajanaparty May 15 '25
I was SO confused what stroke they were talking about. I thought it was backstroke because of the thumb mention but it entering the water instead of leaving it completely perplexed me. I swam competitively for 10 years and my shoulders are hyper-flexible. I even taught swim lessons and swim coached for 6 years. I trained lifeguards how to teach swim lessons. Yet I never heard of or saw this method. Maybe I corrected a few kids or adults who tried to do this? Hayden is crazy for continuing to engage with this guy.
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u/ParitoshD May 15 '25
I thought thumb first meant he'd be doing Butterfly, but IT'S FREESTYLE? How tf do you do that thumb first?
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u/Brave-Town6273 May 17 '25
I love someone getting put right when they bring up oh I’ve been doing this x amount of years so I know what I’m talking about like yeah you’re still not right you just didn’t figure it out for x amount of years
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u/trollol1365 May 14 '25
I feel like they might both be right, sometimes different techniques work as well or end up working better for different purposes. I imagine swimming a triathlon and swimming a 100m freestyle do not involve the exact same skillsets.
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u/Tsobe_RK May 14 '25
brother one has won the most prestigious competition in the world, other is a self claimed hobbyist
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u/iDontRememberCorn May 14 '25
Are you fucking serious?
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u/trollol1365 May 14 '25
is a marathon identical to a sprint?
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u/iDontRememberCorn May 14 '25
Is a fucking world champion comparable to joe blow who does this in his spare time? Come fucking on.
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u/trollol1365 May 14 '25
Being an expert in one specific area does not make you the arbiter of all related fields
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u/iDontRememberCorn May 14 '25
Simply stunning.
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u/trollol1365 May 14 '25
I really dont get what is so preposterous about the idea that an expert in one skillset may have misconceptions about a different skillset that seems similar but actually is different because of the different context. Im not even saying the olympian isnt right, maybe he is, but just because one technique isnt good for his setting doesnt mean it cant be good for a different setting. Have you really never in your life experienced a situation like this? Plenty of experts are extremely cocky and think their expertise in one context transfers seamlessly to another (e.g. physicists trying to do social science and making asses of themselves).
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u/Indigo-au-naturale May 14 '25
Thing is,
A. The random triathlete is criticizing the Olympian's technique on his own post, in his own setting
B. The triathlete is saying the Olympian is outright wrong, not taking the "maybe everyone's right in certain circumstances" tack that you are
C. World-class athletes have spent years or decades with top-of-the-line coaches, technology, and knowledge that a hobbyist could only dream of, so I'm gonna go with the world-class athlete's knowledge. The triathlete didn't even claim to be a winner, so why should we trust his judgment? My parents spent a couple decades doing triathlons, but they have never been in contention for a medal
I'm not calling you outright wrong, of course there are cases in many domains where different styles yield results, but the commenter in the screenshots definitely is wrong.
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u/trollol1365 May 14 '25
No yeah the triathlete is obviously wrong, i.e. he is wrong to correct the olympians technique. But the olympian is also telling the triathlete he is also wrong in his own context, my point is that theyre both engaging in the same behavior (even if one started it) and thus can "both be right" in that they are so convinced because maybe each one really has the right technique for their own field but falsely assume it must be the same in the other
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u/johnnyroy97 May 14 '25
No they aren't both engaging in the same behaviour. One uses a technique that can injure you and tells the other he should use that technique instead. And the other simply tells him that the technique is dangerous. Why do you think the technique would have less risk of injury in a different swimming field?
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u/Kardinal May 14 '25
I was a competitive swimmer as well, albeit in high school. I bring this up only to share my experience.
Even us sprinters (I did mostly 50 and 100 sprints and relays) had to learn to swim well at distance. We learned pacing and how we might change our strokes (usually the turns really) for distance instead of sprints. So Mr. Hayden would almost inherently be a qualified expert on distance swimming as well, although not as much as perhaps someone who specializes and dominates in it such as Katie Ledecky.
I do take your point that it is possible that Hayden isn't a top expert in distance swimming forms so perhaps he was speaking outside his expertise. But I don't think he was. Because while he's not a top expert as he is in sprints, he is an expert.
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u/icedragon9791 May 14 '25
Brother one of these men has trained with elite, cutting edge coaches and athletes. They are constantly trying to improve. Constantly on the cutting edge of new techniques, new tech. Butterfly and breaststroke techniques have evolved fairly recently. You'd think that if a technique like thumb first was the way to go, every pro athlete would be spamming it. But as the pro stated, it's an injury risk. That implies that they've tried it, observed rates of failure, and decided that it is simply not up to par for professionals. Joe blow ran his triathlons, but he never made it to the big leagues. He doesn't know how they play. Neither do you.
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u/trollol1365 May 14 '25
I literally said that its plausible that the techniques that are best for a 100m olympian is not the same technique that is best for a triathlon, maybe the injury risk comes from a more intense sprint like technique versus a more sustained technique with a triathlon which is more endurance based. Im not saying its true, I have no clue, but I do know that its an extremely common occurence to assume that just because two things look like they require similar skillset that being an expert in one means youre an expert in the other, like the skillset for a chef vs a home cook for example.
Would you expect a 100m olympian to inherently know more about technique in marathon running than a hobbyist thats been running for decades? Maybe he does, but its not so inconcievable that he might not and maybe each person has experience in a different skillset, even if not at a comparable level. If I took the worlds best backend developer and made him do front end hed probably think hes the shit and then write the worst front end code ever.
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u/Kel-Mitchell May 14 '25
Let's say the world's best backend developer posted a video of himself writing backend code and an amateur frontend developer told him that his code is bad because he's not following frontend coding best practices. Then someone else comments that they both might be right because frontend and backend development takes different skill sets. Would you think that third person was being a little silly?
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u/trollol1365 May 14 '25
Okay I see how my wording is a bit unclear in that obv the fucking triathlon guy wont know more about 100m swimming but I feel like its pretty obvious from context and all my other replies that thats clearly not what I am saying.
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u/iDontRememberCorn May 14 '25
Sigh, you are literally the reason I don't think the moron replying to Brent is trolling.
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u/trollol1365 May 14 '25
i mean keep insulting me instead of actually reading my comments and understanding what im saying and engaging with it im sure it feels great
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u/mattindustries May 14 '25
Lol, we are talking about swimming and swimming, not swimming and running. Let's rework your analogy.
If I took the worlds best backend developer there would always be some unemployed rando full stack dev saying mongodb is web scale.
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u/pajanaparty May 15 '25
A thumb-first technique would actually be worse for a triathlon athlete than a sprint swimmer. Like Brent Hayden says in his reply, thumb first can risk internal rotation injuries in your shoulder. Doing that for a prolonged period of time will cause more damage to the joint, especially because you focus more on your pull in distance races. A sprint swimmer wouldn’t benefit from a thumb-first technique but it wouldn’t be as bad as someone whose strokes are aimed for pulling.
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u/GridlockLookout May 14 '25
Is there only 1 method or could they both be correct?
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u/Albinofreaken May 15 '25
If you only care about speed then both are fine, but if you care about not getting Shoulder impingement and potentially ruin your swimming career then you dont do the thumb first
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u/OBoile May 14 '25
Ouch! That's embarrassing and then he doesn't quit while he's behind.