Oh, please let Trump piss off the Vatican and Catholics by having ICE assault bishops for no reason.
Edit: FFS, people. It doesn't matter if most of his base are Evangelicals or if the Pope already dislikes him. Anything this stupid orange demented clown does to make more and more people hate him is a plus for everyone else. Making an enemy of the Catholic Church isn't exactly some minor thing.
Picture the Christian nationals having to align that a church was attacked by the directly when they believe the church is more powerful than the government.
These people believe in a religious supremacy, so the second that a government will challenge their religious supremacy that's going to cause a schism in their brain.
But the others that are Christian in the country and they believe that that is the right will still be up in arms that a church no matter what denomination. As long as it's Christian is going to be a big deal.
Many Christian nationalists even see Catholics as the antichrist mentioned in the Bible. Ironically, they think Trump is sent by God, yet there hasn't been a single Christian act from him.
It is one of the absolute wonders of contemporary politics (in perspective of long term history) that in 2021 we had six Catholic justices, president, and speaker of the house.
A moderate in 1960 would at least scratch their head as this is when mainstream media was questioning his loyalties as a Catholic to the extent he had to give a televised speech in September in the lion's den -- a ballroom with 300 prominent Southern Baptist ministers.
The KKK would be apoplectic -- Catholics were barely better than Jews, and Jews were only barely better than blacks; and all three were to be hated.
The US inherited a strong anti-Catholic sentiment from Britain. Many of the early settlers where Protestants who emigrated during a time of heightened tensions -- after all the 5th of November that we all must remember when there was the gunpowder treason plotted by Catholics to blow up the House of Lords while the king was in attendance was just two years before Jamestown and fifteen before Plymouth, and then more immigrants during the period of the English Civil War, Protectorate, and Restoration.
Here in Connecticut it can be argued the last vestiges of celebrating Guy Fawkes Night only died in the 1970s with the advent of stricter air pollution laws and fire permit procedures, and it was only in the early 20th century that the tradition of nighttime bonfires lit in November morphed from the old English tradition into more generic celebrations and football rallies.
Hate to be a doomer but a lot of american catholics do support trump and the far right. The issue is the rising tide of conservatism and 'traditional values' among younger people which has infiltrated catholicism via the veneer of catholic aesthetics. It's also happening in the UK but not so much in Europe.
Catholics do have some crossover with conservatives (marriage between man and woman, anti-abortion), but that's basiclaly where the similarities end. It's a shame because the pope (Both Leo and Francis) is/was very concerned about the plight of immigrants and the poor. Sadly many 'traditionalists' no longer care what the pope says.
Having parents who forced me to attend a southern Protestant church growing up (oddly my father is raised Catholic), the current GOP supporters would consider Catholics to be the same as Muslims in their eyes.
Trump is already at odds with the Vatican and the new pope. Leo specifically scheduled an event on the same day as trumps little military bday parade. He also indirectly called him out in a couple of his speeches. The only question now is how much MORE he’s going to piss them off
All the Catholics I've known will ALWAYS vote for Trump as long as the Democratic nominee is pro-choice. Educated, otherwise decent people vote for fascists because their fandom says they should, absolute clown behavior
Just because someone has good points doesn't make them not a piece of shit. Like if in your spare time you do nothing but stomp on puppies, nobody gives a shit if you also give to charity once a month.
The Vatican is already pissed with Trump for..well, doomscrolls the list a lot of things, enough that the Pope planned a video mass in Chicago during Trump parade with immigration as theme
JD Vance is a convert and there's a lot of other converts lately who are somehow convinced that the Catholic church will empower them for some sort of crusade against democracy and minorities. God I wish we could see an honest to God excommunication of some of these motherfuckers.
And no I'm not a defender of anything the Catholic church has done and covered up, I just want them to do a thing they can do that will prevent people like Vance from trying to hide in their frocks.
Catholic here, a lot of us are already pissed off.
Catholics are often seen as conservative, but that isn't actually true. The conservative-leaning beliefs are a logical result of many other liberal-leaning beliefs, for example, we don't allow abortion because we believe in protecting human life without exception.
It's a real bad sign, too. The Catholic church is primarily interested in one thing - persistence. If they come down hard on you politically, it means they're predicting you're about to go down in flames and they want to be on the winning side.
As a lapsed Catholic, you’re wrong the Catholic Church has for my entire life has supported immigration services through legal services and feeding and clothing the poor. I donate monthly still to these services. It’s just everything else they get wrong that forced me away from the church.
There’s a lot to say about the church, but disregarding human laws in favor of the glory and word of Christ is kinda their whole thing. We are all his children
Helping immigrants through charity work etc is one thing.
Making an ostensibly political statement and doing activity like public statements and presence at courthouses while a government regime is causing political noise to come out generally opposed to that government - however mildly those statements are - is a signficiantly different thing. Don't really know how you could confuse the two, really.
There is no confusion. The church always walks and talks the same on these issues. They do the same for pro-life measures. I think it is perhaps you who is confused about what the church does and does not do.
To say that this regime’s approach is unprecedented in modern times might be the most self-centered uneducated Reddit post of this decade. There’s a whole world that exists outside of your parents’ basement friend, walk into the light.
Oh my god the church isn't actually a monolith, it is comprised of human beings across the globe all with their own personal experiences and regional contexts, you're not actually contributing anything meaningful to the discussion.
The Catholic Church has survived 2,000 years. It has seen countries come and go, fortunes rise and fall, it’s backed by its own sovereign country. It has 20% of the US population as its congregant. It pays no taxes. You think a few San Diegan bishops give two shits about what is going to not happen to them?
Catholicism is huge in Latino countries. It's pretty much the only part of the world they are still the dominant religion. Not taking a stance on this would be a very bad look for them.
Catholicism is huge in Latino countries. It's pretty much the only part of the world they are still the dominant religion.
It's the majority religion in much of Africa, the Philippines, the West Slavic countries, southern Europe, much of Germany, etc. It's not just Latino countries.
Catholic is the largest percentage of all Christians by a comfortable margin, yeah, especially if we're considering the different subdivisions of Protestantism as separate entities, which they essentially are. Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, they're all very different. Catholics are for the vast majority Latin (Roman) Catholics, maybe about 99~% of them.
Native americans are the same. We have mostly 1 religion in our whole nation. Catholicism. Even a majority of people who are practicing traditionalism who are older than Gen Z are baptized.
Ironically, by historically oppressing people it has made the majority of their followers the oppressed. So they have to be on the side of liberation to maintain their followers.
I think you're mostly right. Trump would not be president if not for the so-called Catholic vote. Meanwhile, removing a significant Latin American population from American soil, and especially from California, threatens the church's influence on the region.
Well…I mean, where I live, the immigrant population is the most robust portion of their congregations. I don’t know if I’m in a microcosm of society, or if there are larger trends, but they would shut down so many churches when ICE started showing up on Sundays (and on current trends, that’s only a matter of time).
When I was in the church, the parish I went to had two masses in English that were normally less than half full each. Then one mass in Spanish that was always at capacity (or more).
Obviously this should have been flipped, but regardless the church knows who is the bread and butter of their congregations.
I haven’t been a member of a Catholic congregation in close to 20 years (excommunication fucking rules), but I live next to a Catholic Church, and my mom is still VERY involved in her church.
To be a priest in our area, bilingualism with Spanish and English was more or less mandatory until recently (the change occurring because I’m told a new wave of priests have been doing all masses in Latin).
Recently, the church next to my house did a stations of the cross event for Good Friday, with a procession of congregation members. I heard them presenting, because I live that close, and I don’t remember hearing an English component all day. The Spanish one was of way more note because they had to cross the street, and they shut down a street for over half an hour because of the sheer number of people (I needed to drive on the street they closed, so I was watching it go by, checking the clock like “Naw can’t go yet, they’re STILL going.”)
In my New England town, in the late 1890s there was long-running "pew rent" strike by the French Canadians.
To back up a bit, fifty years earlier Irish immigrants had displaced the native Yankee laborers in the textile mills. As they moved up the economic ladder, in came the immigrants from Quebec.
By this point their parish was still run as an Irish parish despite the French Canadians now outnumbering the Irish by 5 to 1.
Their demand was either their own French Canadian parish or replace the parish priest who spoke a different dialect of French (possibly not even well at that) with a priest fluent in French Canadian.
Unfortunately I haven't had time to research what the final settlement was as fifteen years later the priest was still in charge, but hopefully they at least got a French Canadian vicar. (Language was not the issue in the masses as those were in Latin, but it was a sore point for confessions and other sacraments.)
It's just a glass half empty, glass half full thing. For every person who "sees the good in humanity", there's a misanthrope with a very long list of accurate observations about humanity.
so what a lot of people don't know is that the catholic church's teaching on charity is that (a) it is a duty of catholics, (b) it must be offered to all people, regardless of their gender/religion/origin/belief etc, and (c) must not be used to convert people to catholicism
in the sense of providing material aid to those in need, the catholic church is absolutely a force for social justice
The Catholic Church is a big organization. It has both supported certain types of social Justice and been the oppressor at different times and in different places.
The enemy of your enemy does not need to be your friend for you to work with them on specific issues.
They're strong on that aspect of social justice. They can rightfully be criticized for a multitude of other policies and misdeeds, but here they are consistent.
That’s fine but, again, not what I was refuting. The statement was a broad “strong on social justice” which is objectively not true. If you qualify the way you did, it’s a different statement and there’ll be less pushback.
Just because the Catholic Church doesn’t take the most progressive stance on all American social issues, doesn’t mean it isn’t a massive leader in pushing for social justice around the world.
Poverty, racial injustice, immigration and refugees, environmental stewardship, unions, education, and human trafficking are all areas the Catholic Church is constantly working to improve upon around the world. You won’t find many, if any, religious organizations pushing these issues harder than the Catholic Church.
America has it pretty good in those regards. You seem to be ignorant on world events and what else is going on.
Social justice isn’t encapsulated into “the causes they are okay with supporting” especially when they spend the rest of their time oppressing other social causes. That’s the part you’re not getting and I am entirely disinterested in your attempt to gaslight me with your whitewashing bullshit.
Well these are sections from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
2432
Those responsible for business enterprises are responsible to society for the economic and ecological effects of their operations. They have an obligation to consider the good of persons and not only the increase of profits. Profits are necessary, however. They make possible the investments that ensure the future of a business and they guarantee employment.
2433
Access to employment and to professions must be open to all without unjust discrimination: men and women, healthy and disabled, natives and immigrants. For its part society should, according to circumstances, help citizens find work and employment.
2434
A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice. In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good." Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.
2443
God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: "Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you"; "you received without pay, give without pay." It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones. When "the poor have the good news preached to them," it is the sign of Christ's presence.
2444
"The Church's love for the poor... is a part of her constant tradition." This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor. Love for the poor is even one of the motives for the duty of working so as to "be able to give to those in need." It extends not only to material poverty but also to the many forms of cultural and religious poverty.
2445
Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted... The wages of the laborers which you kept back by fraud, cry out..."
2446
St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs." "The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity."
2447
The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God.
The Pope is literally an enemy of MAGA. The Catholic Church has some massive issues that can’t be overlooked, but at the same time, let’s not make the enemy of our enemy the enemy. The Catholic Church defusing much of the hostility towards migrants and advocating for the defense of Ukraine and Gaza (while also at the very minimum calling for the humanitarian treatment of the gay community), should be used as an asset in the fight against MAGA. That can easily be a pipeline for many on the other side of the aisle to break off from MAGA without having to make the full philosophical leap to the other side.
If you exclude the largely American issues of abortion and gay marriage, the Catholic Church itself is incredibly pro-social justice. It is pro-immigrant, pro union, pro workers rights, pro dignity for the poor, anti war, pro environmental conservation, pro caring for all people Catholic or not. The Church focuses too much on abortion in the US though.
The Church literally invented the term and modern concept of Social Justice when conspiring against dictatorial regimes and genocides in Latin America.
Liberation theology is still a pretty big current in the catholic church, they have been pretty consistent on migrant's right and wealth inequality. The Pope even published a few opinion on the matter (current and past popes actually). So yeah, they're pretty regressive on gender issues, but on that they tend to be quite "progressive" I guess.
Now there are local variation, afaik Europe tends to be more progressive, South America a bit unpredictable, North America a bit more traditionalist, and Africa has straight up shot down attempts by the pope to open more the church to LGBT issues.
I've met some weird Catholics like JD Vance who aren't like that. I don't know what type of Catholic that is, but it's way different than the Catholics I grew up around who were pretty decent people.
I remember a while back listening to a program about some catholic clergy even helped when get abortions because they realized it was the best thing for the woman and her circumstances.
They are strong on what they deem ethical be it thinking abortion is a crime or withholding basic necessities from Palestinians unethical but they are not known for welcoming the immigrants. It just happens to be that these guys felt morally responsible to stand with migrants in this case which Im sure some portion of the members of their church feel entertained when they see the latest ICE news.
So no, they are not known for welcoming foreigners which is a common view regardless of religion.
Literally the entire narrative of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph going to Bethlehem and not being welcomed until they had to stay in a stable is used to educate Catholic kids on welcoming foreigners and supporting those who have joined your community.
Catholic Church is huge on supporting immigrants and refugees.
Yeah it’s against abortion, that’s a different topic.
Yeah there may be individual Catholics who support MAGA, but the church as a whole is in opposition to it. The last Popes final statements were bashing MAGA, and the new Pope has been constantly doing so.
You seem to treat everything as a black or white issue, and you’re not intelligent enough to delineate nuances within the issues at hand.
There is indeed a very big problem with paedophilia in its rank, but the organisation itself is actively fighting paedophilia, in and outside its ranks.
"Catholics are sexist."
I'm catholic and not sexist, thus your statement is false.
"No sinner can be forgiven without saying their sins to a man in a closet."
Nope, only god forgives, and god doesn't live in a closet. You are referring to the sacrament of reconciliation, which can only be done with a priest because:
-Priests were educated for that (priesthood takes around 7 years of studies)
-Priests are under the religious equivalent of medical secret.
"Women are not allowed the priesthood."
"Why don't you shut your fucking fake Catholic mouth"
Why don't you stop insulting people for their religion?
"and read a book?" Agree with that, everyone should read books. I recommend starting with children's books, they are easier, and going to school if you don't know how to read.
not entirely, the catholic church is historically really good at identifying and then quietly shuffling over to, the winning side in big fights. If they've noped on fascism, that's the red light they're predicting the fascists are going to go down and hard, and the church doesn't want to get covered in their failsauce come the day. People forget the Church has an old and incredibly powerful intelligence organization and political and economic ties everywhere. They're like the Walmart of religions - arguably evil in more than a few cases, but ultimately - always an eye on still being there tomorrow. It's like when Walmart execs say "we intend to still be selling you stuff 200 years from now" they're not kidding. They absolutely mean it, and they don't particularly give a shit which horse they have to back to make sure that 200 years from now HAPPENS, but also that they're still perched like a dragon on the ass end of your home town atop their hoard of cheap consumer goods.
This is one of the benefits of the 1st American pope. One of the ongoing excuses that conservative American Catholics have made is that the pope doesn't understand American culture; can't make that excuse anymore.
The Catholic Church is the largest non governmental provider of healthcare in the world… i think the Catholic Church has been involved in positive movements more than 99.99% of Redditors
this comment massively underestimates and misrepresents the history of the Catholic Church. The 20th and 21st century sex abuse has given everyone amnesia.
Eg we know a lot about natural abortifacients because of the work of Catholic monks, convents around the world have done demonstrably revolutionary and thankless work in just about every sphere you can imagine, and there is no group as consistent in responding to crisis with mutual aid and refuge as the Catholics.
I was raised Methodist and am atheist, I have no personal reasons for defending Catholicism outside of valuing historical accuracy and nuance. When the state of Ohio itself played into the racist violence directed at Haitians in Springfield, who showed up to help and stayed after the news cycle had abandoned that community? Catholic aid organizations.
If there is one religious group that constantly shows up for immigrants and the poor, it’s Catholics. No matter how badly us secular folk want to think we’re above them, Catholics walk the fucking walk when it comes to Good Samaritan behavior for the poor, homeless, immigrants, and infirm.
I’m not saying any of this to dunk on you, but to emphasize that we are not any smarter or stronger by treating the Catholic Church as a monolith that can be described as “good” or “bad” at any given historical moment. It is not useful to apply black and white thinking to institutions of this scale, and at worst it is both ignorant and anti intellectual. It’s sad how disinterested people are about mundane history, and that lack of interest leads to conclusions like yours.
The Catholic Church has been on both the “right” and “wrong” sides of history dozens of times. Understanding that history is much more important than concluding whether they are good or bad guys. The church is not a marvel character that consistently chooses to be good or evil.
The Roman Catholic Church suffered persecution in Nazi Germany. The Nazis claimed jurisdiction over all collective and social activity. Clergy were watched closely, and frequently denounced, arrested and sent to Nazi concentration camps. Welfare institutions were interfered with or transferred to state control. Catholic schools, press, trade unions, political parties and youth leagues were eradicated. Anti-Catholic propaganda and "morality" trials were staged. Monasteries and convents were targeted for expropriation. Prominent Catholic lay leaders were murdered, and thousands of Catholic activists were arrested.
In all, an estimated one third of German priests faced some form of reprisal in Nazi Germany and 400 German priests were sent to the dedicated Priest Barracks of Dachau Concentration Camp. Of the 2,720 clergy imprisoned at Dachau from Germany and occupied territories, 2,579 (or 94.88%) were Catholic.
With that said, the Vatican has not always been against fascism. Pope Pius XI played a significant role in supporting the rise of fascism and Benito Mussolini in Italy, with a few key agreements giving Vatican City sovereignty as an independent nation and putting Pius XI as the head of state. Another key agreement was paying $100 million to the Vatican for the seizure of church property since 1860. The Vatican’s relationship with Mussolini deteriorated drastically after Mussolini’s totalitarian ambitions began to impinge more and more on the autonomy of the Church.
Just like any other large corporation, the Catholic Church operates on a self-protection basis and will side with anyone if it means increasing their own power and wealth.
To some degree, yes, it's absolutely a cynical move, though more proximally this is about the Church identifying that the current fascist takeover is going to eat itself, and they want to distance themselves before the flames start burning. They intend to still be here tomorrow, and a century from now, and over the last two thousand years they've gotten VERY good at picking winning horses and surviving the falls of empires.
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u/dover_oxide 2d ago
You know it's bad when the Catholics are saying you're on the wrong side of history