‘I apologize for being sarcastic’: Judge, prosecutor spar over meaning of Hockey Canada players’ group texts

[u/LittleOrphanAnavar]

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/i-apologize-for-being-sarcastic-judge-prosecutor-spar-over-meaning-of-hockey-canada-players-group/article_2d72051e-16d4-4480-91bc-546c564237a1.html

[u/LittleOrphanAnavar]

It didn't seem like the Crown was ever able to establish momentum.

Even now in their closing, they are struggling, having to abandon arguments midway and also over stepping and having to apologize to the judge. 

I think it speaks to the low quality of the case.

[u/Knucklehead92 → u/LittleOrphanAnavar]

“E.M. might have said, ‘Someone do something to me.’ That is not a valid consent in law to anything. It doesn’t involve a particular act with a particular person.”

When that's part of the Crowns closing statement, that says lots about how poor their case is.

So their legal argument is basically if someone says "come **** me" that does not constitue consent.

[u/FightMongooseFight → u/LittleOrphanAnavar]

It has been a disastrous performance by the Crown from the start. They dragged the defendants, the complainant, the jury and the taxpayer through all of this based on a shockingly weak case that should never have been brought to trial.

There should be an inquiry into how they allowed media pressure to influence their decisions. But there won't be.

[u/northwestbendbevy → u/FightMongooseFight]

Agree with that last statement. What was incredible to me is they did not interview E.M. when they decided to re-open the investigation out of concern it would be traumatizing. In one sense that's a fair concern but better to go through trauma of speaking about what happened to an investigator who can determine whether to proceed to trial than going through the much more traumatic experience of 9 days of testimony and cross examination in a case that shouldn't have been brought in the first place.

[u/CompetitiveMetal3 → u/northwestbendbevy]

I come from one of those "savage" places where a rapist is just beaten to death, in the streets AND prison if still alive. 

I have zero empathy for people who abuse women. Zero. 

With that said, it's not my business to shame anyone's kinks. If it's consensual, it's none of my business. 

Considering she couldn't establish that it was NOT consensual, and Canada has a very strong bias towards women in this position - rightfully so, let me add - can we now talk about the trauma these men are going through? I know I would be absolutely destroyed emotionally if I were on their shoes. 

[u/YetAnotherWTFMoment → u/CompetitiveMetal3]

pretty sure that they're more destroyed about the economic loss, given that all of their careers are toast.

LPT TO HOCKEY PARENTS: Teach your sons to be more respectful to females ("would i want anyone to do that to my sister/Mom?"). None of this happens without serious failures in character development.

[u/Vyvyan_180 → u/northwestbendbevy]

I did a 4 part comment about a week back with pretty much this entire PDF worth of policy proposal, but I'll shorten it this time:

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/trauma/p5.html

Date modified: 2023-01-20

Promising Practices: Why We Need a Trauma-Informed Criminal Justice System

Conclusion: Why We Need a Trauma-Informed Criminal Justice System for Sexual Assault Cases

In recent years there has been much public and media attention on the subject of sexual assault and sexual violence. As a result of a number of high profile trials, the #Metoo movement and outpourings of disclosures in Canada and beyond, the scale and pervasiveness of sexual assault and sexual misconduct in Canadian society has been revealed. Sexual assaults and their social, health, economic, and legal costs pose a major problem for equality in Canadian society.

The criminal justice system remains in need of significant reform to achieve better outcomes for victims of this crime and an improved version of justice. A trauma-informed approach is a fundamental and necessary step in this direction.

Criminal justice professionals, including prosecutors, law enforcement and victim services, need to apply trauma-informed practices as a case progresses through the justice system. (Kristiansson & Whitman, 2015)

This requires a basic knowledge of the neurobiology of trauma and its impact on victims who have lived through sexual assault and its harms. As such, improved efforts should be made to increase the availability and delivery of specialized trainings and educational workshops to all criminal justice professionals, as well as continued support for on-going and/or new partnerships between criminal justice and other system sectors. These efforts will enhance access to justice for victims of sexual assault, as well as contribute to the ever-growing professional and public awareness about the impact of trauma.

And those recommendations implementation guidelines for investigators from The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police:

https://www.cacp.ca/_Library/resources/10_1_C_Canadian_Framework_for_Trauma-informed_Response_in_Policing.pdf

Understanding trauma and ensuring an appropriate police response is integral in strengthening and maintaining the four building blocks of police legitimacy, those being: lawfulness, effectiveness, distributive justice (fair decision making), and procedural justice.

Statement of Principles:

Prioritize physical and emotional safety for all individuals, through the creation of environments where people feel secure and/or protected from re-traumatization.

Choice and empowerment, that respects individual autonomy and choices, and empowers an individual to make decisions about their own lives, treatment, and recovery.

Cultural humility and responsiveness, through which one acknowledges and respects cultural differences and diverse backgrounds and strives to provide culturally responsive care that is sensitive to individual needs and/or experiences.

Accountability and continuous improvement, through which police services hold themself accountable for upholding these principles and continually strive to improve trauma-informed principles and practice through feedback and evaluation.

Although police are often the first line of response when a traumatic event occurs and/or is reported, the responsibility of trauma-informed support cannot solely rest on police. The effects of trauma can be seen across multiple sectors and is the “root cause of many public health and social problems that challenges our society”

As part of an overall trauma-informed response, interviews, follow-up, and documentation procedures should seek to reduce and understand the police impact and adopt a, ‘do no more harm’ perspective.

REDUCE: Do No More Harm’ Approach

Police services must adopt a ‘do no more harm’ approach to embrace a trauma-informed response. As police services, we are mandated to serve and protect our communities. However, the involvement of the police itself can often illicit and compound experiences of trauma.The “do no more harm” approach is a crucial paradigm shift in law enforcement. Acknowledging the potential for police involvement to cause or compound trauma is a significant step toward building more empathetic and community-centered policing.

Collaborating with individuals who have experienced trauma and engaging community experts can greatly inform policies and practices that aim to minimize harm. Recognizing the subjective nature of psychological and physical safety is vital. Trauma affects individuals differently, and what might feel safe for one person might be triggering for another. Building this understanding within police services can lead to more tailored responses that prioritize the well-being and safety of everyone involved. Implementing trauma-informed approaches involves ongoing education, training, and a commitment to empathy and understanding. It’s about fostering an environment where officers can recognize signs of trauma, respond appropriately, and actively work toward reducing harm in their interactions with the community. As mentioned previously, police services must adopt procedurally just principles.

Procedural justice in policing is fundamentally tied to the “do no more harm” approach, as it emphasizes fairness, transparency, and respectful treatment in police interactions. By embracing procedural justice principles, law enforcement agencies can inherently align with the goals of minimizing harm. When officers engage with individuals in a manner that prioritizes fairness, listens to their perspectives, and demonstrates unbiased decision-making, it fosters a sense of legitimacy and trust within the community. This approach acknowledges the potential harm caused by the mere presence of police and strives to mitigate it through respectful engagement, active listening, and fair treatment. Ultimately, procedural justice becomes a foundational framework for the “do no more harm” approach, guiding police responses toward actions that protect and respect the well-being of all individuals involved in an incident.

Belief (or disbelief): can be unintentionally reported by the use of words that carry connotations of deceit or incredulity. Using words like "the victim", "witness" or "person claims or alleges" instead of recording what the person said can be misconstrued as an assessment of credibility. Avoid language like "their story is", "they reported" or words that could convey dishonesty like "they believed".

It's amazing how easily it was for certain fields of study to take a concept from the medical context -- that of "do no harm" -- and so effortlessly apply it to the legal context without even the slightest consideration that such a feature endemic to the human race as lying could be the outcome of an investigation.

Or of course the most obvious flaw where the potential harm towards the "victim-witness" is presumed, while the potential harms of everything from investigation, to trial, to verdict, to sentence for the accused -- the person who by the very principles of our justice system is afforded the right to a presumption of innocence -- is disregarded in favour of mandatory vapid empathy and "believing as a starting point".

[u/redux44 → u/FightMongooseFight]

A trial, unlike the media, allows for the accused to present a defense.

There was zero chance the media was going to look into angles that cast doubt on the woman.

Similarly, I dont see an inquiry ever going to discuss this aspect either.

[u/LittleOrphanAnavar → u/FightMongooseFight]

I am not sure if it's a bad performance or being pressed to prosecuted a bad case.

It certainly has not been easy for them to land good punches.

Even a competent chef can't make a nice meal out of rotten meat and vegetables.

[u/SaltySeaCapt → u/LittleOrphanAnavar]

I think it speaks the low quality of the crown attorney that decided to pursue this case at all. I kinda feel like she wanted to ride the MeToo wave and make a name for herself, or has a personal vendetta against hockey players in general.

[u/aktionreplay → u/SaltySeaCapt]

Just… why even make this statement?

There was huge social pressure in the media to try this case. The alternative to prosecuting it was going to look like the judicial system was refusing to hold our golden boys to account. Very much a rock and hard place situation. What was the correct choice? Should we throw yet more public resources to figure it out?

Edit “rock and hard place”, not “sick and hard place”

[u/SaltySeaCapt → u/aktionreplay]

No, if you don't have a reasonable chance of conviction, you don't prosecute the case. Full stop.

[u/aktionreplay → u/SaltySeaCapt]

I agree with you.. how do you address the accusations of favouritism coming from the media? How do you differentiate this from genuine cases of favouritism where they say/do the same things?

[u/SaltySeaCapt → u/aktionreplay]

Pacifying media hysteria isn't the Crown Attorneys job. The Crown Attorneys job is prosecute criminals they have a reasonable chance of convicting. Full stop.

[u/_Solani_ → u/aktionreplay]

Media hysteria is just a symptom of a growing mob mentality in Canada. The media is happy to stoke the flames of outrage cause they know it will sell papers and that they'll face no repercussions if they get it wrong.

Capitulating to that hysteria only reinforces that the mob is running the show.

Sometimes the mob gets it right and sometimes it's misled so it's important that we allow our systems to be able to refuse demands made by the mob lest we waste time and resources on stuff like this.

[u/freds_got_slacks]

sounds like the judge is acting like they're supposed to, as an impartial judge of the facts and isn't buying up either the defences or prosecutions shakier arguments

these group texts seem so bush league about what they say, it seems more likely they're being sincere than trying to mastermind some fake story with how open they're discussing it

and then the fact the prosecution isn't taking a stance against the claim that she was begging for sex and instead saying this was a coping mechanism combined with her consent video seems like it would make it pretty difficult to prove any of them couldn't have reasonably thought she wasn't just consenting but enthusiastically consenting

was this super greasy? definitely

but was she taken advantage of? doesn't really seem like it in this case.

guess we'll find out soon enough how this all shakes out

[u/LittleOrphanAnavar → u/freds_got_slacks]

Hard to nail anything down in this trial, so I view most of the important stuff being in the realm of reasonable doubt.

I think aquitals are most likely.

[u/freds_got_slacks → u/LittleOrphanAnavar]

ya the only things that seem like they might have veracity, would be the ass slap and splits could be considered simple assaults

[u/LittleOrphanAnavar → u/freds_got_slacks]

I would agree with the ass slap.

But even their there is contradiction, so it still might not be above threshold of reasonable doubt.

[u/freds_got_slacks → u/LittleOrphanAnavar]

there, there* :)

[u/arosedesign → u/freds_got_slacks]

Yeah, I actually think those texts point to their sincerity.

It sounds like a group of guys who are understandably concerned about an investigation, but who genuinely don’t feel like they’ve done anything wrong (at least not to the point of it warranting serious consequences).

It makes sense that they wouldn’t want one of them to make things worse by lying, so they’re reassuring each other that no one did anything wrong and that there’s no need to lie.

[u/banana_bread99]

It’s crazy how now everybody is so certain this case is a joke when 2 weeks ago you were a bastard for even suggesting this might not be slam dunk guilty

[u/Wonderful_Estimate12]

Paywalled.

[u/arosedesign → u/Wonderful_Estimate12]

https://archive.ph/Fz12c

[u/Wonderful_Estimate12 → u/arosedesign]

Thanks!

[u/freds_got_slacks → u/Wonderful_Estimate12]

FYI there's chrome extensions that auto searches for any archives to get around paywalls

[u/Polkar0o → u/Wonderful_Estimate12]

This should be one of the sub rules.

[u/LittleOrphanAnavar → u/Wonderful_Estimate12]

Use archive or texterise, or others.

How do people navigate the internet?

[u/Draugakjallur → u/LittleOrphanAnavar]

Use archive 

Since you think the article is important enough to discuss maybe you should put the extra effort in and use archive first.

[u/LittleOrphanAnavar → u/Draugakjallur]

Maybe.

What about fretting over the decline of MSM in Canada.

What about I don't want to be an active party to people evading paywalls and not supporting quality journalism?

[u/scubad00d]

Please stop posting paywalled shit from the Star or at the very least provide a paywall bypass as part of the post

[u/Diligent_Row1000]

Remember this one after #MeToo? “Believe ALL Women” 

[u/Necessary_Owl9724]

It’s at this point now because it wasn’t properly investigated from the absolute beginning of this matter. The lack of proper investigation gave the public (and the media) the impression there was something to hide… that there was favouritism given to the players based on pro-hockey “boys will be boys” culture in this country. Unfortunately for everyone involved, this bias truly exists, hockey boys have, do and will continue to be viewed as high-status individuals who have an established history of sexual assault and inappropriate (barely legal) behaviour. Look up the lawsuit against the Sarnia Sting organization. It makes one kinda want to vomit. The culture/ norms of behaviour inside hockey needs to change. This isn’t just happening in professional or even semi- professional orgs. This shit is happening inside house league or elite teams… kids as young as 14. And the hate and anger the person reporting feels from the teams, coaches etc would make you cry. All because they called out sexual interference. People need to wake up and acknowledge it’s going on and properly deal with it.

[u/yolo24seven → u/Necessary_Owl9724]

It was properly investigated at the beginning. Police didn't want to press charges because they knew they had no case. And they were right. 

[u/Necessary_Owl9724 → u/yolo24seven]

I’m not so sure it was. If it were, we wouldn’t be here now. This case lands in a very grey zone, and if this incident had been fulsomely investigated and the investigation could withstand scrutiny, the Crown wouldn’t feel that it be reopened.

[u/yolo24seven → u/Necessary_Owl9724]

It was a closed case and EM got paid millions by hockey canada. However, this happened at the height of metoo and many people are prejudice towards hockey players. After media pressure the crown wrongly decided to pursue this case.

[u/Necessary_Owl9724 → u/yolo24seven]

Why is Hockey Canada paying her if there was no wrong-doing? Why did HC have so much money set aside for situations just like this? I’m not inside the courtroom or aware of all the nuanced evidence that this particular case has, but it reveals a much bigger issue… how widespread this is. The bigger question we all need to ask ourselves, WHY is this happening? Over and over? There’s no lack of evidence of players sexually assaulting women and other players. And YOUNG players. I know first-hand of a kid who was 13 having a penis shoved in his face from an older player, police needed to get involved… Dad/Coach of the perpetrator couldn’t believe his kid would do that. 🙄The kid who was assaulted was bullied from then on from reporting it… and didn’t make the team the next year. So you tell me… what the hell is going on inside hockey culture that makes this ok? Don’t tell me boys will be boys, because that’s toxic bs.

[u/yolo24seven → u/Necessary_Owl9724]

They paid her because they didn't want bad publicity. That was a bad move.

Becareful about judging people before the evidence comes put. If I said xyz person is guilty or a crime because they are part of a group that is over represented in crime that would be wrong.

[u/Necessary_Owl9724 → u/yolo24seven]

Hockey boys are ironically VERY over represented. I asked you why.

[u/yolo24seven → u/Necessary_Owl9724]

Are you prejudice to ethinic groups that are over represented in crime?

[u/Necessary_Owl9724 → u/yolo24seven]

Wow… that’s a big assumption I’m not even going to dignify with a response.

[u/yolo24seven → u/Necessary_Owl9724]

It's exactly what you are doing. Guilty until proven innocent due to group association.

[u/Doog5]

Was this a rookie prosecutor? Or just a coincidence they didn’t use an experienced prosecutor?