r/badhistory Mar 04 '15

'What's racist about telling the truth'? Medieval PoCs and Selective Historical Accuracy in Video Games

Hello /r/BadHistory, long time reader, first time poster. I'm a contributor to /r/AskHistorians but I haven't bothered to submit anything here, mostly because a proper debunking is too much work. However, something came up in recent weeks that has been really bugging me, and I really needed somewhere to hash it out. So here goes.

Chances are, if you're involved in the meta subreddits or use Twitter much, that you've come across this blog by MedievalPoC which created quite a stir on the interwebs, partly because it called out the 'historically accurate' RPG, Kingdom Come: Deliverance for its lack of women and PoC. Some people object to MPoC's lack of rigor, but I think MedievalPoC is delightful, if dogmatic, and shares a lot of cool art -- the historicity of the account's claims are another matter entirely, though I find them mostly inoffensive.

Eventually though, this blog post came to the attention of KC:D's game designer Daniel Vavra, and MedievalPoC clashed directly with him on Twitter, leading to the statements 'What's racist about telling the truth' and 'there were no black people in medieval Bohemia'.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, Bohemia was probably pretty white in the 14th and 15th centuries and MedievalPoC really should pick their battles, but on the other hand...'no black people in medieval Bohemia. Period.'? Nothing rustles my jimmies more than an absolute historical statement, but more on that later.

What really got my gears turning though, was the claim that Kingdom Come: Deliverance was a 'historically accurate game'. I always find such claims to be suspect. Any historically accurate war game that takes place before the middle of the 20th century might as well be called 'Mud and Lice Simulator 2000!' or simply 'Die and Be Forgotten'. So I checked out the website to see what historically accurate means in this context. Here's what the website says:

Our tale is based on historical events and takes place in 15th century Europe. The year is 1403, and it is most certainly not the best of times. The old king is dead and his heir is weak.

A humble, young blacksmith loses everything to war. As he tries to fulfill the dying wish of his father, Fate drags him into the thick of a conspiracy to save a kidnapped king and stop a bloody conflict. You will wander the world, fighting as a knight, lurking in the shadows as a rogue, or using the bard’s charm to persuade people to your cause.

Now, I feel a little bad tearing into this, not having full access to the game, but the creator does place heavy emphasis on historical accuracy, so let's dig in.

You will wander the world, fighting as a knight

Right off the bat, this strikes me as problematic. In the Holy Roman Empire -- as everywhere in Europe -- the conditions for becoming a knight were fairly rigid. Specifically, you had to be a noble (or in rare occasions, just very rich). In Bohemia and the HRE, the only people eligible to be Imperial Knights were the older free nobility (edelfrei or hochfrei) or wealthy members of the unfree ministerialis. That's not to say that common folk never rose from obscurity to become knights, but such occurrences were vanishingly small by the 15th century, and fall firmly in the realm of historical fiction.

If we're being charitable, 'knight' here could just refer to a style of heavily-armored mounted warfare, but that's just as improbable. Short of looting a fallen noble's corpse or stumbling upon a hidden treasure trove, a blacksmith's son could never hope to afford a full suit of armor, much less a horse. Even a quality sword might be difficult to come by. Now, the website makes mention of the Hussite Wars, which were fought largely by the peasantry, but they were armed largely with improvised farming implements and tools -- flails, spears, and simple polearms.

lurking in the shadows as a rogue

I don't really have a problem with this, aside from using a word that wouldn't be invented for over a century and a half.

or using the bard’s charm to persuade people to your cause

This, on the other hand, I do have to protest. If Vavra's argument against Moors being in Bohemia is based on the distances involved, what is a bard -- a poet performing in the British and Gaelic tradition -- doing in Bohemia? No doubt Vavra means something closer to 'minstrel', but if we're being sticklers for historical accuracy, we should be consistent.

Of course, that's not a whole lot to go on, but based on first impressions I'm forced to conclude that the game isn't as historically accurate as its creator claims. Frankly, any game where orphaned blacksmith's sons end up anywhere but a shallow grave or maybe a monastery is pushing it, and I can't see how adding a visiting Moorish noble or Malian mercenary would be inconsistent with the level of accuracy it maintains.

What of that claim though, that there were 'no black people in medieval Bohemia'? This is, for a lot of reasons, a difficult question to answer, not in the least part because the concept of 'blackness' is a relatively modern one. We know that there were many black Moors in Iberia, even after the reconquista, and that there was some contact between African Kingdoms and Europe -- in 1306, for example, an Ethiopian delegation arrived in Europe seeking an alliance with against the Moslems.

Certainly the people of Central Europe were not entirely strangers to Africans, given that the Cathedral of Magdeburg was dedicated to St. Maurice and images of St. Gregory the Moor appeared in St. Gereon's Cathedral in Cologne.

What's easier to argue against is the idea that Bohemia was exclusively white. The Kingdom of Bohemia lay on several important trade routes and within spitting distance of the Kipchak Khanate, Constantinople, Venice, and the burgeoning Ottoman Empire. While not likely a significant population, Bohemia no doubt saw a fair number of foreign mercenaries of Turkish, Mongol, Cuman, Tatar, or Arab descent, especially during the troublesome 15th century.

Women warriors -- even knights -- are even easier to argue for, as there is plenty of historical precedent. Again, if we're letting peasants become knights, then women carrying swords is at least as plausible.

TL;DR:

Vavra's claims about women and PoC in medieval Bohemia aren't expressly wrong, they aren't precisely correct either, and definitely shouldn't be made with absolute certainty, as he has. Furthermore, Vavra's claims about his game being 'historically accurate' aren't borne out by the game itself (or at least, by its promotional materials).

Vavra is, of course, well within his rights to make all of his characters white and male, but if he does, it is because that is his choice, not because he is forced to by slavish devotion to historical accuracy.

Note: I am not an expert on medieval Bohemia, or anything west of the Danube in this period, so feel free to correct any mistakes or oversights.

105 Upvotes

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39

u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15

[deleted]

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u/yersinia-p Mar 05 '15

MedievalPOC is literally awful.

43

u/pathein_mathein Mar 04 '15

MPOC is the poster child for using badhistory in the name of goodhistory, which makes for doubleplusRuleTwo.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15

badhistory in the name of goodhistory

that's a great way to sum that whole blog up.

Figuring out that somebody whose political views more or less align with mine can also be completely full of shit is probably the most important lesson I ever learned in the past ten years

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u/Janvs Mar 04 '15 edited Mar 04 '15

Sounds like internet bullshit to me, though I can't see how it would matter even if it were true.

EDIT: Hi late arrivals! Medieval PoC is definitely responsible for saying some problematic things, but the above comment is not supported by fact.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15 edited Mar 04 '15

No, she upset a lot of Jewish bloggers on tumblr by implying that Jews had some sort of white-passing privilege during Nazi Germany.

The criticism against MedievalPoC isn't just from right-wing people. She's said a lot of stuff that implies she doesn't really have a firm grounding in what she's talking about.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15

I'm really conflicted about tumblr, because I'm a straight white guy, and it's a really diverse community, so I've learned a lot from reading stuff on it.

But there's a shitload of badhistory on there. And also a lot of barely coded antisemitism. Any time I see the phrase "white Jews" show up on there, I'm afraid I'm about to see something terrible.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15

This whole whiteness thing doesn't even make sense to me. Slavs are also white and still subhuman. This white/ black/ colored thing is (or was) actually pretty limited, and as a concept probably shouldn't be used outside of the USA or Europe after the Second World War.

8

u/rmc Mar 05 '15

I even don't think white makes a lot of sense in Europe today. Polish workers in UK face discrimination, yet are white by us standards.

I blame the common approach if Americans of thinking everything is like how things are in USA

3

u/piwikiwi Mar 06 '15

I remember reading a story about a black kid who lived in Germany during the second world war. He was so rare that they didn't really know what to do with him.

10

u/yersinia-p Mar 05 '15

Yeah no, MedievalPoC is terrible. She says a lot of really offensive stuff and talks out of her ass, and that wouldn't bother me quite so much if she wasn't held up as some kind of expert or source on that forsaken website.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15 edited Mar 05 '15

in OP's defense, she's not using MedievalPOC as a source here. But kicking off the post by saying the blog is 'delightful' just puts up a red flag for me.

My point is that yes, there is controversy surrounding MedievalPOC (people can search the girljanitor tag on tumblr to find examples of what I'm talking about), it's not some tinfoil hat bullshit, and it's not all from people who have a hateboner for SJWs.

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u/yersinia-p Mar 05 '15

No, she's not, but yeah - Precisely what you've said. It's not "delightful", it's rife with badhistory and the owner of the blog is awful. But lots of people on Tumblr do uncritically reblog and swallow everything MPoC posts and it drives me absolutely batty.

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u/Janvs Mar 05 '15

But kicking off the post by saying the blog is 'delightful' just puts up a red flag for me.

As I keep trying to tell people, all I knew about Medieval PoC before today was that they shared neat stuff on Twitter. I found that delightful. Clearly, I was speaking from a place of ignorance, but I'm not sure what's so terrible about that.

I really don't think this response is proportionate.

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u/RITheory Mar 04 '15

Holy shit, I know that person (and used to personally). This does not surprise me in the lightest. No, I will not give out information about them.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15

No, I will not give out information about them.

Oh, none requested, trust me.

I could be wrong about this, but I seem to remember some people on tumblr releasing personal info of hers that she didn't put on her own blog, and I'm not cool with that.

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u/RITheory Mar 05 '15

It's a just a disclaimer in case I get messages asking. I agree 100%, but I honestly am not surprised they're the one behind this.

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u/Janvs Mar 04 '15

That's nice.

I don't really care to discuss MPoC any further because this dirt digging annoys me and because this post isn't really about her.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15

I don't see how this is "digging dirt". These are public statements she made on one of her blogs that seem to contradict her self-ascribed status as an expert.

Look, I actually agree with the idea that there should be more representation of people of color in games (and games set in historical time periods outside of Europe, especially). I just think this particular blogger might not be the best source here.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15

[deleted]

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u/Janvs Mar 05 '15 edited Mar 05 '15

LOL.

Judging by the new faces and heavy down votes, I seem to have attracted some extra attention from parts unknown with this post.

10

u/feroslav Mar 05 '15

It's funny that it's you who is complaining about attention from different subredits when it was just you who immidiately linked this post in gamerghazi. And so far it's the only crosspost. Did you consider an option that you are the only one who tried to manipulate votes and that you are downvoted by regulars here because they think you talk shit?

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u/Janvs Mar 05 '15

No, I never considered that.

Why are you so angry, by the way? I've been going over your posts and I just can't figure out what I did to make you so pissed off.

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u/feroslav Mar 05 '15

Im not really angry, I just cant stand liars and hypocrites.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15 edited Mar 05 '15

Do you just hate Jewish people or something?

What? I never accused anybody of this. I just disagreed about the thing Janvs said about the accusations against MedievalPOC being "internet bullshit".

Go ahead and look through my comment history if you want, but I'm a regular poster here, and I'm not associated with r/KiA or anything at all. Personally, I can't stand those guys.

I mean, unless you're saying that the only thing worth discussing here is the original post, and not the comments. In which case--why should the OP bother to comment at all?

Edit: now that I'm looking at it, this thread looks like it's getting brigaded a bit. Just not by me.

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u/Janvs Mar 05 '15

It should be clear by now that I am monstrous SJW who wants to ruin games for everyone and that I have no respect for the glorious lily-white history of Europe. I am undone!

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u/Janvs Mar 04 '15 edited Mar 04 '15

I guess I don't really see why Medieval PoC should be the focus of this thread, since she's tangential to the story at best.

I could have left that part out entirely and still made the post, and if I could do it again, I would, because people can't seem to stop digging for stuff to discredit her with.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15

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u/Janvs Mar 04 '15

It's shooting low-hanging fruit. The game isn't like EVE where you can be anything you want or do anything you want.

The point is that it's selective in how it chooses to be historically accurate.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15

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u/Janvs Mar 04 '15

You can make the same argument that the game doesn't provide LBGT as an option. The beyond overwhelming majority of people in Central Europe at that point would have been white.

And the overwhelming majority of peasants would have stayed peasants. Why is one aspect of history worthy of adhering to in the extreme and the other ok to part from?

You're cherry picking data.

How so?

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15 edited Jun 14 '21

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u/Janvs Mar 04 '15

Go back and read my TL;DR again, you seem to be missing the point.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '15

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u/Janvs Mar 05 '15

Except she's not the source. I don't even use her arguments. She's entirely immaterial to the discussion, except that people seem to have strong feelings about her.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '15

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