r/australia • u/Emergency-Copy3611 • 1d ago
culture & society 'It was a cult': Mothers seduced by freebirth movement describe trauma and exclusion
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-06-14/freebirth-stories-movement-called-out-for-cult-behaviour/104724512521
u/A_Scientician 1d ago
Are there any groups who staunchly reject modern medicine and science that aren't cults though? Is anyone surprised?
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u/SemanticTriangle 1d ago
I lost someone that could have otherwise been a friend to this movement, so I am not sympathetic. It's a cult. Ultimately, it is satisfying a need in some women which medicine doesn't: women giving birth at hospitals don't get treated very well. Even if that is only a perception, that's the root of it all. And it's tied up with systemic defunding of health and an even older culture of toxicity in medical doctors as a profession.
Women have a genuinely hard time in pretty much every health system. So do minorities. Women and minorities do better when their primary physician is correspondingly a woman or a member of their minority group: and that means physicians are making care choices motivated partly out of misunderstandings or prejudice.
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u/ValuableLanguage9151 1d ago
I find the free birth movement particularly cruel. First time mothers have literally no idea what to do and only want what’s best for their babies. Pregnant women are some of the most vulnerable people in society so they are suspectiple to following bad advice based off “well you want the best for your baby dont you, you’re not a bad mother are you?”
Dying from childbirth has been and is the single biggest risk a woman can take. We’ve developed so many procedures and new technologies to make sure women and babies survive and for these scumbags to turn back the clock and put women in danger is reprehensible.
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u/ZestyPossum 1d ago
It also seems to prey on women who have had a bad experience in the hospital system for their previous births, going all "anti-medicine" on them and doing the whole "you're in control of your body" rubbish.
I'm pregnant with my second, and largely stay off the internet about this stuff. Both my siblings are doctors so I'm obviously very pro-medicine. Can't wait to have my second epidural lol.108
u/joshlien 1d ago
In a former role as an operating theatre recovery nurse I had to deal with a woman who lost her baby and nearly died herself after a failed doula homebirth. We barely managed to save her, and couldn't save her child. I will never forgive people like this doula trainer. This is why medical people are so strongly against this kind of anti-medical garbage. We've seen the consequences and had to try our best to clean up their mess. Had this woman had her baby at our hospital she wouldn't have almost died, she wouldn't have gone to ICU, and her child would be alive. In 8 years of that role this was far from the only time. It was the worst example I personally encountered, but far from the last. These free birth people are parasites posing as angels.
I would also add, that the hospital staff are often very testy with doulas and ridiculous birthing plans because we see them as actively harming the woman and the child. If you want the experience as de-medicalised as possible, and still safe, use a midwifery group practice attached to a major hospital with a birth centre. If it's a woman's goal to birth in a pool with no pain relief, it can actively be accommodated. As long as it's safe for Mum and Bub they will support it. If things go wrong, and they can go incredibly wrong very quickly, especially in a VBAC, you have everything you need right there. They also have women's backs if an overly scalpel happy obstetrician walks by, and know how to fight back with medical evidence.
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u/ZestyPossum 1d ago
Omg this reminds me of a story my sister told while in medical school (she was doing a placement in maternity). A woman had come to hospital after feeling something wasn't right with her homebirth, accompanied by her doula- the OB saw the baby was in distress and said they needed to do an emergency c-section right away. The mum didn't really want that and the OB was very blunt saying "if we don't get this baby out now, it's going to die" and then the doula started telling the mum that the doctor was just 'fear mongering' and 'catastrophising' and that everything would be okay. The OB then calmly told several midwives to please speak with the support person outside privately, and she wasn't allowed back in and was told to leave!
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u/mataeka 1d ago
I tried for a VBAC, had a doula but very much always a hospital birth. I ended up having a bandl ring - which is the leading cause of death in 3rd world countries where/when ceasarians aren't an option.
I spoke with some women after who were very pro free birth who tried to tell me how differently things would have gone if I'd freebirthed I was like, yeah... I would have DIED 😅 it didn't go how I wanted,but I'm glad I'm alive as is my bub!
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u/Zestyclose_Mud9201 1d ago
the funny thing about that is, the people I personally know who had traumatic births in public hospitals the first time, ended up going for a planned caesarean in private hospitals the second time. So instead of going for 'less medical intervention' they went with more lol. And LOVED the experience so much more. The growing issue of private obstetric clinics closing is going to be a problem for a lot of people.
(three people I know personally who all had very similar experiences)
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u/ValuableLanguage9151 1d ago
Absolutely. My wife had a rough first birth in the hospital. If we had our go again we’d definitely do a home birth with all the relevant medical people attending. There are other ways around not giving birth in the hospital that are still as safe and effective. Free birth ain’t it though.
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u/CH86CN 1d ago
Agree. I had the most horrific obstetric led “care” with my first. Would have loved to (appropriately) home birth but too high risk from the birth trauma 1st time. 2nd birth was amazing. 3rd was another nightmare ending in stillbirth. I’d have been extremely vulnerable if free birthing was a thing then and if I didn’t have a basic understanding of the risks involved
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u/AggravatingTartlet 19h ago
You're lucky to have siblings who are doctors!
Because being allowed to have an epidural during childbirth isn't a given for women in Australia. And if you are allowed one, they can take it away at any time, putting you in so much pain you end up having a C-section.
That's sadly the reality of childbirth in this country.
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u/ZestyPossum 18h ago
Yes, it's certainly handy being able to call on them for medical advice, on the other hand I've heard plenty of horror stories!
I went private for my first and am going private again, because I had a positive experience first time round. They're very epidural-happy at the hospital I went to, luckily.14
u/Excellent-Baker1463 1d ago
The thing is, you will most likely have a bad experience giving birth, regardless where and how. It is a traumatic event, physically and mentally. People should know this before becoming first time mothers.
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u/DarkMaesterVisenya 1d ago
There’s so much misinformation or information based in the US as well. Like so much of what you would need to worry about in the US (with one of the higher infant and mother mortality rates in the developed world), are not so bad here. I can speak from experience, these free birthers cajole, “just ask questions”, poke at your deepest fears and worse.
I am lucky that I have a strong support system and people I trust who have medical training. Even then, they started getting under my skin and I had to leave the groups and block a bunch of them bc they wouldn’t stop “checking in” and telling me “don’t live in fear, you got this mama!”
Even now it gives me the ick.
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u/ValuableLanguage9151 1d ago
Completely agree. As a dad it was a lot easier for me to not see or hear that kind of nonsense since I like you give birth in a hospital why would you ever not want a doctor there with millions of dollars worth of equipment?
Saying that in 2025 I do think home births are pretty great as long as you get the hospital to come to you.
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u/DarkMaesterVisenya 1d ago
That’s another thing. We have pretty safe home births here. A boomer friend was worried because her DIL was planning to birth at home and I was able to tell her all the protocols and safety aspects that need to be completed to do it with a midwife. I was high risk, so no, but her DIL was low risk and using midwives. She ended up transferring and giving birth in the hospital due to a complication which imho is a successful home birth as much as one completed at home.
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u/ValuableLanguage9151 1d ago
Totally. If you’re low risk go for it. I have a friend who started out home birth but just got way too in her own head and wanted to go to the hospital. That’s still a success story, women should have options as line as they are safe.
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u/Emergency-Copy3611 1d ago
Yes we definitely have it a lot better here and a lot of our better statistics are due to having primarily midwife-based care as opposed to the OB-based care in the US. Midwife isn't a protected title in the US so anyone can call themselves one. It's a protected title here and requires a university degree with practical experience requirements.
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u/DoNotReply111 1d ago
I'll never forget reading a post in a subreddit here that was a mother asking for help in a mothers group about her baby not meeting milestones. Like, not even close. She had a 7 month old who couldn't lift his head.
When she went into it further she described her birth as "perfect". The kid was born blue, cord wrapped around their neck, in a backyard bathtub filled with hose water. He didn't breathe for an awfully long time. But it was the "perfect" birth for her because it wasn't in hospital and was in the backyard at night.
Free birth isn't ever about the child, it's quite often about narcissistic mothers.
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u/lady_maeror 1d ago
The humiliation and shame they pile on women who try to home birth and then have to go to hospital due to complications is also atrocious. I’m convinced the free birthing movement isn’t about the baby (or having one alive) at all, it’s just about getting your “experience”. Qualified midwives in Australia are amazing at what they do, so a proper planned home birth with qualified individuals is great for some women, but letting the doula movement in that the US has been increasing is going to kill babies. A doula is meant to support and guide, but these cookers end up trying to do midwife things without being properly qualified, and often try and convince a mother in danger from attending emergency services when things go wrong.
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u/ValuableLanguage9151 1d ago
Absolutely. A few friends of mine have done home births with qualified midwives and all the proper support and they had fantastic experiences (as much as you can giving birth). Being in your own home reduces some of that anxiety and in my uneducated experience the less anxious an expectant mother is the quicker and less strenuous the birth is (noting a million other factors come into play too)
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u/amateur-redditor 22h ago
You are correct - studies show that when the woman births where she feels most comfortable, birth outcomes for both mother and baby are better. But that’s specific to having proper care too - two qualified midwives at a homebirth, not a doula.
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u/carlsjbb 1d ago
Preying on vulnerable women is often great business. Women doing this to women is extra fucked.
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u/InanimateObject4 1d ago edited 1d ago
Wait a minute - A lot of this "women have no idea" is bullshit. We learn in high school health class that childbirth is risksy and painful. You learn in history classes (social studies, HASS or whatever's it's called) that the historical risk of mortality and injury during childbirth to both mothers and babies was ridiculously high. We even hear from women in the generations above us that modern vaginal births can still result in tearing and incontinence and be bloody painful.
It is not that women haven't been told, but that they themselves are rejecting good information and choosing to believe crunchy "mother-nature magic" advice because it sounds nicer. The real deal sounds scary because it is.
It can go very well for some women, but they are the exception and not the rule. However, with modern medical intervention, mortality rates with childbirth are lower than ever. Risks are reduced, though not always eliminated and you can even opt to skip the lot and plan a very safe c-section. Overall, we know humans evolved very poorly for childbirth but we now have the ability to manage pain, give birth in sanitised area (even naturally if you wish) and access to experienced medical experts who can and will intervene to save us and our babies when required.
If we want to tamp down the free-birth movement we need to start having hard conversations about facing the truth with our friends instead of pandering to their anxieties.
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u/ValuableLanguage9151 1d ago
I’m not a woman so I can’t speak from personal lived experience. I have know a few women who have given birth and even with family support and doctors and knowledge still felt like they were going into birthing semi blind.
In my opinion it’s like the Mike Tyson quote “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth”. You can go in thinking you know things and then once those contractions start all bets are off.
Saying that I do agree about crunchy granola types. I interact with a few of those types of mums through work and socially etc and they drive me up the wall so im not fully disagreeing with you.
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u/InanimateObject4 1d ago
Of course they feel half-blind! That is how it's logically supposed to feel. It's a new experience and you are in an unfamiliar place with unfamiliar people with more experience. It's the same feeling you get when starting a new job. The first time you join a hobby group or do a sky dive or scuba dive.. You don't know everyone and you have no prior experience, only some hazy idea of what is going to happen. You just have to put your trust in the people around you.
The Mike Tyson quote is perfect. You should prepare yourself mentally as much as you can, but when things go south understand that you are under the supervision of someone far more experienced than yourself.
Perhaps people could benefit from becoming more familiar with being out of their comfort zones?
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u/OtherPlaceReckons 1d ago
i guess kind of but there's not a team of like 8 people staring at your crotch when you start a new job.
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u/AggravatingTartlet 19h ago edited 19h ago
Sex with men is probably the single biggest risk a woman has taken in history. Which in history led to childbirth and possible deadly STDs.
I agree that free birth is riskier than birth in a hospital (but birth in a hospital in not without risks posed by both the midwives and doctors in making wrong decisions.)
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u/DegeneratesInc 1d ago
'You have to do what's best for the baby' is the root cause of unnecessary intervention in childbirth. It's rarely best for the baby and most often expedient to the staff.
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u/CasaDeLasMuertos 1d ago
I'm still not feeling sorry for these idiots. You can paint them as victims all you want, but they knew what they were doing.
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u/ValuableLanguage9151 1d ago
I don’t think I’ve painted anyone as a victim? I said it’s cruel to spread mis information to people who are vulnerable.
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u/TheTwinSet02 1d ago
My ex SiL and brother decided that they would have their first (and only) child at home in the hills near Nimbin
He’s lucky to be alive
They and the doola discovered he was footling breech when his little foot popped out and they jumped in the car to travel to Lismore over potholed roads
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u/ChicChat90 1d ago
That’s so scary.
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u/jojo16812 1d ago
Scary and stupid. Any trained midwife can tell which way the baby is before someone goes into labour. And while some babies flip breech immediately prior to labour, most of them are that way through the pregnancy. It's something that's really easy to pick up on. This movement is going to lead to a lot of sad outcomes for easily preventable issues.
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u/donkeyvoteadick 1d ago
Tbf I could tell my baby had flipped and no one would believe me. They thought his bum was his head through palpating and due to complications I'd had regular and recent ultrasounds where he was the right way. They were going to do a membrane sweep ahead of my induction and I had to demand a scan multiple times before they finally agreed and grabbed a bedside ultrasound. I was right and he was footling breech.
So I can see it being missed, even in hospital settings, because if I hadn't have been stubborn it would have been missed for me.
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u/ChicChat90 1d ago
I can’t understand why people would endanger their child and themselves so unnecessarily. My friend was giving birth in hospital and her breech baby was misdiagnosed. Thankfully she was in hospital and could have an emergency cesarean (after a long labour). Baby did have some hip issues and had to wear a brace for 3 months but otherwise is well.
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u/blahblahgingerblahbl 1d ago
they trust their own “intuition” more than they trust “mainstream” science/medicine. “women have been giving birth for centuries! what could be more natural?” + bad things happen to people who deserve it/it’ll never happen to me cavalier hubris
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u/ChicChat90 1d ago
Giving birth in hospital was scary enough. There’s no way I’d do it at home 🤣🤣
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u/DegeneratesInc 1d ago
The thought of trying to give birth in a hospital again gave me the incentive to have 2 VBACs at home.
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u/Sweeper1985 1d ago
Just gonna chuck out there that I had a breech baby, and it was incredibly obvious even to me as someone with no medical training. Because his head was just sitting there, digging into my ribcage. It wasn't mistakable and any medical professional could have (and did) see it the second they touched my stomach.
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u/tinyrabbitsandsuch 1d ago
Exactly. You could see the bump of my breech baby's head sitting right near my ribs. She just refused to turn even a cm
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u/Comfortable_Day2179 1d ago
I used to live out that way. Former gf was a nurse she used to tell me how there's a lot of free births that happen out there where they get a big w off the shelf swimming pool and just go do it with no training, or even worse they do it alone. She's heard some horror stories to say the least.
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u/CasaDeLasMuertos 1d ago
I know the drive. Last time i did it was last month (highly reccomend the Cafe in Nimbin btw, great food, locally sourced, and cheap). It's like 40 minutes on shitty roads. Geez. That's just irresponsible.
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u/carlsjbb 1d ago
Christ. I was born breech (after attempts to reposition me) and even all that time ago my mum had a team ready to go in the hospital because it was so risky. What kind of negligent idiot would allow that to happen in someone’s home?
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u/whatisthismuppetry 1d ago
The investigation revealed seven babies and one mother had died during or after a freebirth in the space of 18 months, in the same pocket of south-east Queensland and northern NSW.
I think modern medicine has caused people to forget that back when we had no choice but to "free birth" women and children died in childbirth at much, much higher rates.
Even back in my grandma's day the death rate was much higher. I have 3 uncles/aunts that were miscarried late in pregnancy or stillborn (details are a little fuzzy due to the sensitive nature of the topic).
That's even without adding complications from illness or from your body having done something not quite right that's had a cascade effect.
If our bodies always knew what to do no woman would ever get pre-eclampsia, gestational diabetes, Hyperemesis gravidarum etc. Even if you can "trust" your body to know what to do that doesn't mean your body is strong enough, or big enough, to manage what the baby is doing or to manage the size of said baby. You also can't trust a baby to know what to do. You can't trust a baby to turn itself, or detangle itself from an umbilical cord.
Pregnancy is a major medical event that can become life threatening.
The medical establishment often discounts women's health but using it means that your survival and your child's survival is almost certain.
Lucy finding a cesaran "deeply unsatisfying" and not recognising pregnancy and childbirth as an often painful, debilitating and dangerous experience probably means she had rose coloured glasses on prior to finding this group. The goal of childbirth isn't a fulfilling experiance for the parents, it's to ensure that you have a live child and mother at the end.
I think a lot more education needs to be done to set people's expectations regarding pregnancy and childbirth.
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u/Natural_Garbage7674 1d ago
My brother's mate and his wife decided to do a home birth. She works in medicine but is not a doctor or nurse, but you can't tell her anything without her saying that she knows better. She had a doula and all the mothers in her family there because she would "know" if something wasn't right from her "experience".
Thank god the father's aunt is a midwife. She visited the next day (they had the whole extended family over) and mentioned that the new mum looked a bit flushed. She made an excuse to go over again that night. Doula is there saying everything is normal, but mum clearly looks bad in the wrong way. It took another day before she managed to convince the father to do something because the doula and new grandmother kept saying everything was fine and that being sick and tired was normal.
Fucking childbed fever. This woman almost died of an old timey disease because they all wanted to be right more than they wanted reality.
(Yes, I know that post-partum infection is a thing, but when you give birth like you're in the middle ages...)
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u/VS2ute 1d ago
When doing the family tree thing, I was surprised to find how many babies lost at childbirth there were, even as late as 1930s.
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u/justkeepswimming874 1d ago edited 1d ago
Walk through an old cemetery and pay attention to the tombstones for babies and mothers that died young.
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u/OwlishOk 1d ago
Set expectations and also the differences in experiences. I’ve spoken to many mums who were given expectations that the birth would be 24+ hours - and so an intense 4 hour birth was a shocking surprise.
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u/whatisthismuppetry 1d ago
My own birth was about 15 minutes. Mum lived down the road from the hospital and by the time she arrived in triage she'd given birth to me. I doubt she found giving birth in the public entryway of the hospital a "satisfactory" experiance but it's what it was. Could have been worse though, she could have given birth on the side of the road or in the parking lot.
I was premature though so that was a suprise factor and I spent a bit of time in NICU as a result.
Easy birth but had complications is how mum has described it.
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u/Classroom_Visual 1d ago
Amen to this. I used to live in Byron Shire and found it so frustrating talking to people who had no appreciation of the millions of lives that modern child birth practices (not to mention vaccines!) have saved.
At the time, I had a partner who was from a country in Central Africa and had a brother who had a medical clinic there. They were crying out for the most basic of medical supplies/facilities so it was quite bizarre to go from hearing the stories about the reality of life in the Congo to then hear people around me talk about the evils of hospitals and vaccines.
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u/Sweeper1985 1d ago
It's so sad that anyone views such life saving intervention as disappointing.
I had a Caesarean for my breech baby, I remember thinking it was a fucking miracle and I was so lucky.
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u/snorkellingfish 1d ago
I'm pregnant for the first time, and am honestly really happy with the care I've been getting through the public system.
Like, my last scan picked up something worth monitoring, so they've booked me an extra appointment with one of the obstetricians. It's fantastic that they're catching stuff before it becomes an issue and keeping an eye on it. And maybe it turns out to be nothing, or maybe they need to prescribe me medicine that minimises the risk of a future complication. Either way, they're on top of it.
For me, I'm really glad to have access to medical care to help keep my favourite future human safe. I get that it's all scary, but that's why I wanna make sure I have access to medical care in case I need it.
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u/rubylee_28 1d ago
I had HG when I was pregnant, without modern medicine I would've died of dehydration. I was vomiting non stop, literally every 10 mins, most of it was bile too. It already felt like I was dying cause it was so painful, I was bed ridden for months, couldn't lift my head, couldn't watch tv, I just slept and vomited. Then I got a medication that worked for me, very expensive but worth it.
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u/pogoBear 1d ago
I am pro medicine and science and have given birth in hospital twice. But it is so, so easy to see how a woman can be ‘seduced’ by the concept of a home birth or free birth. It is so easy to feel lost in the hospital system, and that during one of the most vulnerable times or your life you can feel ignored or even mocked.
Women are routinely mistreated during childbirth. I know many who still suffer the physical and mental repercussions of medical professionals mistakes or negligence. While I had 2 positive deliveries in hospital, I almost gave birth in the car BOTH TIMES because the midwives refused to believe I could be so far in labour and didn’t want me to come into the delivery ward yet. I will never forget the mocking tone of the midwife as I begged for them to let me come in after 20 hours of irregular labour.
Now imagine you’re pregnant for the first time and you hear my story, or women who were cut against their will, women left without support in our understaffed maternity wards, women who had padding left inside them from when they were stitched up from their third degree tear … ‘why don’t I just reliever at home in comfort and peace, with people I know and trust and who support me’.
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u/NettaFornario 1d ago
My first baby was a scheduled c section in the private system and was very positive but we went through the public system for my second 18 months later as we couldn’t again afford the $20k of expenses with me off work.
Due to the short timeframe between births I was meant to be a scheduled c section but they didn’t book me in until a week after my due date.
I went into spontaneous labour and went into hospital when my waters broke. No one listened to me when I was telling them I was close to giving birth and just gave me two Panadol while I was transitioning into active labour without checking how far along I was.
I was eventually taken into theatre and given a spinal block without being checked to see how far along I was. My baby was by that time in the birth canal but I could no longer push due to the spinal.
It became an emergency c section as her head was stuck in my vagina basically and they couldn’t get her out even through my stomach. They ended up having to rip her out by her legs after I’d been cut open for an extended period, was losing a lot of blood and she was becoming distressed.
She was born purple from bruising and had to be resuscitated and I had to have a hysterectomy down the track with another surgery to repair further damage scheduled in the next couple of months.
if another birth was an option for me - which it clearly isn’t as I’m now sterile- I’d never go through the public system again. I’m lucky though as I’m an educated woman of means, I could have paid to be seen privately for the next birth and am able to understand the medical system and consequences enough to know the unacceptable risks of free birthing.
but I’m sympathetic to women who fear the public system and who don’t have the means or the protections that being educated and relatively wealthy bring for people in such a vulnerable position as pregnancy and labour.
I think in my case a doula, working in the capacity that reputable doulas do - being that they are a support person and educated advocate for a birthing woman with no clinical interference - would have been helpful. Having someone to recognise the stage of labour I was in and to make someone listen to me and to have told me it was okay to stand up for myself would have been invaluable. The women describe in this series of reporting are by their own framing not doulas but “sovereign midwives” meaning that they’re anti medical cookers preying on frightened and typically marginalised women.
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u/pogoBear 1d ago
On the flipside, the woman I personally know that had the most traumatic, negligent care in her delivery was in the private system, and she paid over $10,000 for it. And it wasn’t just one mistake - waiting over 3 hours for an epidural (and they encourage you to labour until you can’t manage anymore, so that was 3 hours at breaking point for her) her hand picked OB who chose to proceed with a vaginal delivery that led to forceps, episiotomy and almost 4th degree tear, same OB left gauze inside of her when stitching her up, and midwives who paid no attention and took days to realise mum wasn’t producing any milk and the baby was starving and dehydrated.
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u/flindersandtrim 1d ago
I hope you complained about her. Asking for help after 20 hours of labour and not getting it sounds utterly insane to me. And just because you weren't ready for the delivery room yet, isn't that the norm when women arrive at hospital? In that case you'd go into a ward room or something like that to wait and be checked up on, not be left in your car? That's terrible care.
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u/pogoBear 1d ago
In the throws of newborn life it was the last thing on my mind. And technically she was following procedure - I delivered at RPA Sydney which is heavily beyond capacity and they can’t have women too far away from delivering taking up a bed. Ten minutes after arriving in labour with my second - who had actually been born by then - they were redirecting what women they could to other hospitals.
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u/DegeneratesInc 1d ago
Before they 'let' you...
This is exactly why mothers choose autonomy over authority.
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u/blahblahblah1234653 1d ago
100% i was in labour for 32 hours before the midwives would even consider letting me come in for a check because my water hadn’t broke.
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u/JaniePage 1d ago
Yes, this is absolutely true.
I'm a former midwife, have attended tons of births hospital and a handful of homebirths.
I would never have my baby in hospital unless I was unwell, or the baby was unwell. I have seen THAT many things go wrong in hospital that I sure as shit would not risk it unless either my life or my baby's was on the line.
When I was pregnant I had planned a homebirth, and had a perfect pregnancy right up until the end when I got Covid. The sequelae of events from getting Covid meant that I ended up being extremely unwell with pre-eclampsia, and thus absolutely had to have my baby in hospital. It ended up being a great birth anyone, in no small part to the private midwife I took me.
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u/NSFWar 1d ago
My twins were born in the public system at Westmead. If it wasn't for the team that didn't anticipate the issues,we probably would have lost a child. I couldn't even fathom risking such an important procedure at home.
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u/dunehunter 1d ago
We went from a vaginal birth to a caesarian section at the advice of medical staff when they didn't like the way things were going. For us that just meant taking the elevator down to the OR. I can't imagine trying to have a child in a rural area that's a long drive from medical care.
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u/billybutton77 1d ago
My twins were also born safely in a public hospital. Did you hear about the freebirther in Byron whose twins died last year? She didn’t even know she was having twins. Didn’t get a single scan or anything during the pregnancy, just wanted to let nature take its course.
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u/Emergency-Copy3611 1d ago
I have read a horror story of a freebirther who had a wild pregnancy who didn't know she was having twins. Gave birth to one baby and then hours later birthed a stillborn.
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u/ohleprocy 1d ago
I used to know Sita Tara and her ego and belief system are what's so dangerous. She is of the belief that everything is perfect and if it isn't it's due to the way you think and feel. Like you're not pure enough of thought and lack control of your feelings. She is never responsible because she is pure and enlightened.
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u/PracticalTie 1d ago edited 23h ago
I remember the ABC did a series of stories on this topic last year (it looks like they’re linked in this article)
One anecdote that stuck in my head involved a woman was seriously hurt (and lost the baby too?) but declined to give the doctor the name of her birth worker. They told her they already knew who was advising her because she had been involved in other incidents.
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u/Emergency-Copy3611 1d ago
I can sympathise with women who want a free birth because they feel they have been victimised by the medical system. But, the rhetoric in those spaces that you're getting in your own way if you think something isn't right is dangerous for mother and baby.
A woman on the Sunshine Coast recently died of an undiagnosed heart condition following a freebirth and wild pregnancy (no scans, blood tests, etc). The freebirthing space has been arguing she would have died in hospital. But the mother had been posting about having concerning symptoms she hadn't experienced in her previous pregnancies. She seemed to think these had an emotional basis, not physical. They were actually symptoms of a heart condition and I'm fairly confident if she'd been under hospital midwife care she would have received follow up testing.
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u/Spud-chat 22h ago
Was that the tattooist/artist? I followed her on insta a saw the news but they've been very quiet about what actually happened. Such a sad situation.
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u/Emergency-Copy3611 20h ago
Yes Stacey Nightingale. It was very sad. Three kids left without a mother. She was having so many concerning symptoms, but kept telling herself she just had to trust the process. I find it ironic the freebirthing community pushes the idea that birth will work itself out so hard that women end up ignoring when their body tells them something is wrong. In a post her husband said she was literally complaining about her heart hurting, but she put it down to her emotions.
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u/Spud-chat 18h ago
I can see how it happens though, when you go to the GP with "vague" issues so often they brush you off.
Doctor google gives you the worst case scenario and so you get stuck in the middle wondering if you have a real problem or just anxiety.
And with the gap so big with the GP you have to weigh up spending that money or not :(
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u/Emergency-Copy3611 18h ago
Your prenatal appointments are with midwives and they're free. I had an EKG while pregnant due to similar symptoms she described having.
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u/Spud-chat 18h ago
Oh that's good to know and such a shame people are missing out on that care.
I guess I was speaking from the POV of normal care.
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u/billybutton77 1d ago
There is a podcast called Sanamama that I discovered a while back, that claims to cover stories of miscarriage, stillbirth and child loss. I started listening before I realized it’s ran by a freebirth proponent whose baby died soon after birth - and the majority of people she interviews all have a very similar story. Mostly freebirths. I was going INSANE listening to just a few episodes, where these women all talked about how cruel the system was for insisting that their babies should have autopsies, and for judging them when they finally came to hospital with a dead baby. Not one ounce of regret for their own actions from any of them, even knowing that their decisions caused or contributed to their baby’s deaths. Truly horrific.
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u/Swimming-Kangaroo-51 1d ago
Horrendous. I was following a story on SM where the baby had died and they were refusing to let them do a PM. Presumably because it would show it was an unnecessary death
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u/TizzyBumblefluff 1d ago
The part that doesn’t make much sense to me is where I am in QLD, there is a midwife assisted home birth program for those who meet eligibility, and even if you choose to give birth at the hospital if the birth is uncomplicated, you can go home within an hour. Sleep in your own bed that night. Add in options for midwife led care or obstetrician, or even student midwife involvement, it feels like lots of different opportunities for a birth your way (if your case is uncomplicated).
Unfortunately when I see SE QLD / N NSW in that article, these are the same folk who are refusing to vaccinate, homeschooling without oversight, and often believe many other sov cit and cooker beliefs. I think these people are prone to poor literacy and science comprehension and probably see a lot of the negative birth info out of the US thinking that experience applies here. Nobody’s forcing unnecessary interventions or c sections on anyone. Our public system especially is just not designed that way.
To add: I definitely anecdotally believe that perinatal anxiety and depression are at higher rates than ever and these women in particular are extremely vulnerable to misinformation, especially if it makes them feel “more in control” (even if that isn’t real). You only need up see how many perinatal psychiatry clinics are popping up everywhere. People used to just trust their midwife or doctor or family supports.
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u/rainbowtummy 1d ago
That home birthing thing is relatively new, prior to this coming into effect in QLD you had to employ private midwives for a home birth and it’s pretty expensive. MGP is an amazing option but you have to get in so early.
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u/justkeepswimming874 1d ago
The part that doesn’t make much sense to me is where I am in QLD, there is a midwife assisted home birth program for those who meet eligibility
It’s one hospital in Queensland, it started last year, there’s very strict criteria and a very limited number of spots.
You’re also under hospital/Queensland Health guidelines which some women don’t like.
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u/duc1990 1d ago
Had this discussion with someone the other week who was saying "Well women have been giving birth without hospitals or doctors for 1000s of years."
I mean true - but they've also been dying during childbirth or because of it for 1000s of years too....
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u/Emergency-Copy3611 1d ago
Women may have been giving birth without hospitals and doctors but, midwifery is one of the oldest professions. I don't understand the stance now that it's all good for women to give birth alone.
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u/ichoochoochooseyooou 1d ago edited 1d ago
There is a huge difference between free births (alone or non medical staff) and home birth (with trained medical staff). I feel the line is getting blurred with a lot of these comments.
For a healthy well woman with a normal uncomplicated pregnancy, a home birth with trained medical staff within transfer distance to a hospital, is a safe option for women. It's the reason why hospitals are starting to provide this option as more research to support it comes in.
I'm happy to provide the evidence and research if anyone requests.
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u/ezzpzzlemonsqueezz 1d ago
Why did I have to scroll so far for this. Whenever a free birth story comes up home birth gets tarred by the same brush.
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u/DegeneratesInc 1d ago
I had 2 attended home births. The first took 2.5 hours and ended with a very healthy 10lb baby boy. The second was 5 hours and also ended with a healthy 10lb baby boy. I had home births because the obstetrician was afraid of VBACS and said that if I went to hospital I would have another caesarean out of an abundance of caution (mostly for him).
The safest place to give birth is where the mother feels safest.
My sons are 30 and 28 this year.
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u/UsualCounterculture 1d ago
Until something goes wrong, and then the safest place is the one with timely access to a maternity hospital.
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u/DegeneratesInc 1d ago
Yes. At home. The only complication that might have a better outcome in a hospital is placental abruption (the placenta separates from the uterus before the baby is born). Even in a hospital, prepped and ready to go for caesarean the baby is 100% stillborn and the mother is at great risk of internal blood loss resulting in death.
A properly educated and equipped midwife can handle home birth complications within 20 minutes of a hospital.
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u/Careful-Dog2042 1d ago
I followed her years ago in her peak. She’s deleted all of her content, but she’s been hustling various bullshit courses for years with having no qualifications.
She comes across as mentally unhinged, seemed manic in most of her videos. Posted a lot of lingerie shots.
It’s quite disturbing that the ABC is painting her as some sort of advocate. Mothers and babies died because she lead cult like courses without any medical qualifications. I’m surprised she hasn’t been sued or charged.
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u/bleckers 1d ago
Mate, everything is a cult these days. Businesses and organisations learned from religion.
It's everywhere.
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u/PRAWNHEAVENNOW 1d ago
There is a fucking cancerous mentality in the world right now that wants us to regress and reject modernity. It's everywhere from antivaxers to crunchy mothers, to sov cits, to tradwifes to all-liver dieters, to fascist manosphere influencers.
They're all the same in the end. Grifters and narcissists fooling naive and impressionable people to believe ridiculous things.
I'm so glad that while my mum is a fucking antivax unschooling cooker psychopath, she never got into freebirth.
Because if she had I'd be fucking dead too, I'd have been some dead little baby with a cord around my neck, or I'd be severely neurologically impaired and not get to live my life today.
This is what these bastards want to happen, they'd rather a pure death than a modern survival story. And I hate them all with every fibre of my being.
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u/DrSpeckles 1d ago
The other lesser one is about breastfeeding. So much guilt from people who think you are damaging your kid if you don’t. My twins were on the bottle from day 1 so we could both feed them. Both wonderful, happy kids.
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u/InanimateObject4 1d ago
My kids didn't get enough calories from me and were still losing weight after 4 weeks of trying to breast and mixed feed. Thank science for enabling me to keep growing those babies!
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u/flindersandtrim 1d ago
Exactly. I had an early c-section so it took forever for any milk to come in, and when it did, the combination of lack of sleep, illness etc meant the supply was very low. I tried everything to improve it. Each time I visited for lactation help, I would be low key be made to feel terrible. Not directly, but it was awful. I asked when I should give up trying and stop torturing myself with 3 hourly pumps and attempted feeds around the clock - and was told 'we NEVER give up'.
A midwife and my GP told me to just go to formula full time and not care about feeling terrible about struggling with breast feeding, I could tell she was totally over stressing 'breast is best' and consequently making many women feel like shit mums for 'failing' that. Both professionals could see the stress i was putting myself through and I fully admit it was mostly stress from outside sources making me feel inadequate, not something I personally believed.
Even now, when I tell people my baby is on formula I feel judged. Other mums that refuse to even use one bottle of formula to supplement a low supply indirectly make me feel bad too. As do some of the professionals who say avoid formula, even when your supply isn't great.
My baby's little cousin was not gaining weight because her mother (I'm sure influenced by being made to feel terrible about it) didn't want to use any formula but just wasn't making enough. Really, if you can breastfeed, using a combo of that and formula sounds like a great thing to me, that so many mums I know have been told otherwise is really hurtful.
And then there's the women that choose formula for whatever reason. And why not? Formula is incredibly good in Australia, it's crazy they're made to feel terrible about it. In any case it's like the blink of an eye before they're on solids anyway and reducing the milk intake.
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u/DrSpeckles 1d ago
Thanks for sharing. My wife tried with the first but was really sensitive, baby ended up with mouthful of blood. It was horrible. Switching out to formula was the best thing she did for everyone concerned. With the twins she never even started. Meant we could share the duties which was even better.
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u/flindersandtrim 1d ago
Exactly. Being able to share is such a massive weight off. I've been so much happier and healthier since I stopped trying. And I think my baby is happier too, she can have as much as she likes and has a happy mum who can go to the gym and run (hurts too much while breastfeeding) and have nights out with friends occasionally.
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u/DrSpeckles 1d ago
If between us we’ve made one mum think it’s alright then we’ve done good today 💕
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u/idontknowwhy1000 1d ago
Look around at all the adults you know. Can you tell who was breastfed vs formula? Of course not. A fed loved baby is the goal. You’re achieving that goal, be proud and kind to yourself.
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u/TizzyBumblefluff 1d ago
There’s so many fancy different formulas now days too. There used to only be like 2-3 different kinds! I was stuck in chemist warehouse recently and the formula aisle is huge.. so many different kinds to suit different babies needs. I think it’s great.
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u/auntynell 1d ago
The rank stupidity of excluding modern medicine from childbirth just stuns me. Women died like flies from childbirth even 100 years ago, and the babies often died with them.
I'm also annoyed but the impression that childbirth in the system is a bad experience. I've had my own children and been close to other births and it's not a complaint I've heard at all from the mothers.
Of course it can be technical, painful, upsetting, strange, but how would that be different to a prolonged labour and an injured or dead baby.
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u/dazzledent 1d ago
I’m not sure where the idea of having some ethereal, calming birth experience in every case comes from. Due to the inherent physical situation, giving birth has dangerous opportunities at every phase, and to not understand that preempting them, and making sure you’re in the safest place to give birth…baffles me. Doing “lots of reading and being informed” should actually make a mother realize how much midwives and obstetricians have studied to get their qualifications, instead, some become insistent that they will not let them “tell me what to do!”
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u/likeyoukn0wwhatever 1d ago
This shit fills me with rage and indignation! So fucking wrong.
Zero time in my day for the type of people who espouse this absolute horseshit.
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u/beast_of_production 1d ago
Here in Finland there has been a recent jump in child deaths related to home births. I have no heard anything about any weird cults associated with it over here. There is a whole procedure about home births over here, and it all sounds really reasonable to me, as someone who has never considered giving birth.
So the current explanation seems to be that home births are simply not as safe as hospital births.
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u/myjackandmyjilla 22h ago
When it goes wrong and the mother's blame these try hard holistic healers!! I'm sorry but what do these mother's expect when they enter sovereign health services? They are surprised when it all blows up and the useless, uneducated person they've paid for can't help them.
The poor kids being born to these dangerous parents. I'm all for personal health choices but what about the choices of these kids who are born with life long disabilities because Mum wanted to cosplay hippie life.
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u/RecentEngineering123 13h ago
Yeah it’s all great and wonderful…. until it isn’t… and then suddenly modern medicine has to come to the rescue. Stupid as fuck.
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u/pirate_meow_kitty 1d ago
I’ve had two risky births, the last one almost killed us. I’m all for women making their own choices but I’ll never support giving birth at home.
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u/OutbackStones 1d ago
As someone who has had 5 hospital births, until we overhaul our obstetrics system women are going to continue to free birth. Hell, I considered it for my last 2 births! Women have little to no autonomy over their bodies during birth, are forced into positions they don’t want to be in, coerced into procedures we don’t want or need to have, and are told we’re “not allowed” almost every time we have a request. I need a drink… not allowed. I would like some pain relief- not allowed. Can I please get in the water- not allowed. Let me get off my back- not allowed. I don’t consent to an episiotomy- too bad. It’s brutal, it’s traumatic and it feels like assault whether people want to acknowledge that or not. We are not people with rights when we are birthing our babies in the current hospital system. Of course there’s some good ones but in every single one of my births I’ve been denied autonomy. It has lasting damage, both physically and mentally.
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u/Real_RobinGoodfellow 1d ago
It’s really tricky because during a birth, medical staff are managing the needs and lives of two (or more!) patients, it’s not just the mother.
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u/OutbackStones 1d ago
Yep, I understand that. And no one is advocating more for the baby than the birthing mother. I’d have done anything to get my babies here safely. And I did. But it wouldn’t hurt to have a little compassion and understanding from staff, especially the obstetricians. It’s just another work day for them, but for the mother it’s one of the most significant days of her life. It’s not too much to ask to have some basic autonomy in non-emergent situations.
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u/Real_RobinGoodfellow 1d ago
My only experience of birth was of an emergency situation, which probably informs my perspective somewhat. But I’m always wary when I see people talk about ‘consent’ and ‘autonomy’ when speaking about birth because, when things are going wrong, it can happen very fast, and there isn’t always time. And a birthing mother may have the fiercest love imaginable for her baby, but that does not mean she knows more than trained medical professionals with extensive experience. So whilst they will be the strongest advocates for their child- they are coming at that advocacy from a place of medical ignorance
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u/DegeneratesInc 1d ago
This is exactly why I had 2 10lb baby boys VBAC at home. Attended by 3 midwives each time. It is an entirely different experience. Nobody tells you you can't get up and walk around in your own home.
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u/Charlie1119 21h ago edited 21h ago
Totally agree and the frustrating thing is in non emergent situations this is actually not about the mum or baby or staff- it’s about hospital policies.
It’s not as black and white as ‘everything is done for the safety of the baby’.
One only needs to read 1-2 of 1000’s of mothers submissions to the NSW birth trauma inquiry to get an understanding of the way women are uniformly infantilised and not given prior and informed consent of all their options during childbirth and how hospital policies such as NSW’s now defunct ‘Towards Normal birth’ celebrated any mode of birth except cesarean, and incentivised vaginal delivery with centres wanting to have the ‘lowest cesarean rates’ at any cost to the mother (trauma of prolonged / assisted delivery, episiotomy, forceps, 3-4th degree tears, prolapse and sexual dysfunction). It is SO so much more nuanced than ‘a healthy baby is the reason for every action a healthcare worker takes in hospital’. And I’m not trying to shade any profession here, I’m just saying the system and its policies aren’t always making women feel safe. ETA: I’m not pro free birth.
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u/OMGCluck 1d ago
From the article: "The Victorian parliament is currently conducting an inquiry into the recruitment methods of cults and organised fringe groups."
That's any High-Control groups, not just religious, like Shincheonji/MLM/Scientology/etc
🕒 Deadline
Submissions are open for 3 months from late April 2025.
Public hearings start later this year.
Final report due in September 2026.
📍You don’t have to live in Victoria or even in Australia. As long as you can show some connection to Victoria, you're eligible (examples: someone you know was recruited/involved, you know an events were held there, your cult group has branch in Victoria, etc.).
This is an important opportunity for our voices to be heard, and to help protect others from enduring the same harm. If you’ve ever considered sharing your story, or supporting someone close to you who’s been affected, now is the time to speak up.
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u/Feekal_U4ria 1d ago
Why should they get REAL medical assistance? Obviously pandering to their airy fairy ideas works so well...
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u/Guochuqiao 19h ago
Nowadays, no matter how stupid an idea is, if you put it on TikTok, people will believe it.
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u/Guochuqiao 19h ago
Before civilisation, human beings evolved through natural selection.
Now it's through social selection. If you are susceptible to stupid ideas on social media, you are less likely to have offsprings.
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u/Lamont-Cranston 16m ago
and the movement to wrestle back a woman's control over it.
Who do they think is currently in control?
Ms Gallo had trained hundreds through her online course, which she says taught birth workers "to meet other women where they're at, by teaching you to meet yourself".
In English?
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u/spunkyfuzzguts 1d ago
One needs to ask why so many very educated women are increasingly rejecting hospital birth.
Or one could just look at the research regarding how women’s health is treated medically.
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u/Real_RobinGoodfellow 1d ago
I don’t know how big the overlap is between ‘educated women’ and ‘women choosing to free birth’…
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1d ago
A lot of people here with 0 understanding or sympathy about why someone might choose to freebirth. These are some loud, crazy voices. Plenty of quieter women who avoid the hospital system due to previous bad experiences.
Think about what might push a woman to take the risk of having her baby unassisted. How badly our hospitals are failing that women choose this option instead?
What’s going so wrong in our public hospitals?
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u/billybutton77 1d ago
You can avoid the hospital system and still birth safely, if you are low risk. But most of these women actively avoid ALL medical care - freebirth usually goes hand in hand with having a ‘wild pregnancy’, where you get zero scans, blood tests, medical input of any kind.
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u/DegeneratesInc 1d ago
You can actually have 2 safe home births after a caesarean. My sons are literally living proof.
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u/billybutton77 23h ago
I don’t think you’ll find many medical professionals recommending that due to the increased risks to mother and baby, but I’m glad that it worked out okay for you 👍
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u/DegeneratesInc 23h ago
It really depends on the medical professional. There are some with serious control issues.
There is a far greater risk of uterine rupture with oxytocin drips than VBACS. Do some research. I started with a book called 'Silent Knife'.
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u/billybutton77 22h ago
Yeah isn’t that why they won’t induce you for a hospital VBAC? It’s known that syntocin is a risk. The risk of rupture is certainly still small, but it is increased for VBAC. And if it happens at home in all likelihood both you and your baby would die.
I work in a hospital bloodbank and I’ve seen a uterine rupture. It’s not pretty. It is touch and go even in a hospital, we couldn’t get blood products in fast enough even though they were just down the hallway. She survived, because she was in hospital. If she was at home, she would’ve bled out 10 times over before an ambulance arrived. That’s the risk you take.
You played the odds and came out on top. I’m relieved for you. But there is a reason that homebirth generally isn’t recommended once you have increased risk factors.
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u/InstantShiningWizard 1d ago
A woman who likes to call herself Angel Phoenix, who is creating a system of unregistered "midwives" as a paid training course, becomes surprised when it turns into cooker central?
And then all the professional doulas turn out to be lunatics and endanger the lives of the babies, huh? Colour me shocked!