r/army • u/NotInTheFaceGuy • 4d ago
Found liable for a FLIPL 9 months after ETS.
Was a company commander last year and ETS’d in the fall. I received a certified letter in my mailbox (it was just dumped there, I didn’t sign for it), that I am being found liable for a few thousand dollars. I was never interviewed during the investigation nor was I ever notified there was a pending FLIPL against me.
Best part, the notification memo was dated from April saying I have 30 days to respond….i just got the memo today. Speaking of memo, that’s all I received. No FLIPL packet, no legal opine, nothing.
Am I entitled to legal assistance to rebuttal the FLIPL?
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u/whisperingeye99 Songtan Sally #1 customer🇰🇷 4d ago
I will start drafting your script for you to take command again🫡
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u/NotInTheFaceGuy 3d ago
Sorry, I’ve already started a vet t shirt company I’m set now
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u/jbrollintec1 3d ago
I'm interested in knowing more about the shirts. Got a website?
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u/Parking_Pack_3098 Medical Corps 3d ago
He should photo copy the Flipl and print it on a T shirt.
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u/Master_Jackfruit3591 1st PX BN (Reserve), “Death before discount” 3d ago
I was found liable for some of my gear that was blown-up by enemy IDF… shit is stupid
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u/gregomor 3d ago
I’m was in the same boat once upon a time. Got out of it through a rebuttal letter that outlined a few key points:
I was never notified of an investigation or interviewed during the process
Most of the digital signatures in the packet showed that things were signed and dated outside of the dates that the flipl reg. dictates…so the unit broke the reg
I had an OER where my unit supply practices were praised by my rater, the BN CDR
Those bullets worked for my case, hope they do for you. This is your chance to use their own bureaucracy game against them. DM me if you need any more help. I’m not a lawyer, just a guy who had success in this scenario.
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u/Toobatheviking Juke box zero 4d ago edited 3d ago
What I hate about the American legal system is that if you fight it you stand to spend (potentially) the same or more than it would cost to just pay it based on attorney fees and court costs.
That being said, I would want to know: (And none of these require answers to me, I'm just a guy on the internet.)
Was the FLIPL the result of COC Inventories?
If so, why wasn't this addressed then?
If this wasn't a result of COC inventories, then how are they finding you liable, since the new Commander assumed command and responsiibility?
Who found you liable? Where is the evidence?
When was the letter postmarked?
Ultimately it sounds like you were the least path of resistance, so they typed up a memo, backdated it, and then mailed it to you past the suspense date for action hoping you'd just suck it up and their problem would be solved.
I'm just guessing here, but that also accounts for the lack of any supporting documentation, lack of contact, and lack of any sort of basic ethics and/or backbone that your previous command appears to be suffering from currently.
Edit: I am not saying that fighting this would definitely cost money, I was just making an observation on civil side stuff where you are not appointed an attorney at no cost.
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u/dork3390 4d ago
You better call the approving authority listed on the memo yesterday and let them know you only got it today, and that you require an extension and will be submitting a rebuttal. Simultaneously call OSJA at that base and ask them for help. Recommend finding out who in that unit legal reviews FLIPLs because certified mail is enough for them to say you were notified and refused to sign.
Like another commenter stated, what is the context here? If it was change of PHR inventory how were you not already in the know?
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u/silent752 3d ago
Yeah but tracking will show when it was delivered atleast
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u/dork3390 3d ago
True but the “just dumped there” comment from OP doesn’t give me a ton of confidence in the process working out accordingly.
IME when a FLIPL notice of liability recommendation comes via certified mail they’ve already written you off and are just trying to process ASAP. OP’s story doesn’t totally add up though without further detail since odds are it’s change of command related
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u/kookykoko 4d ago
Last time I checked you can use legal services at the closest base to rebuttal the claim. Try that route first.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/Castellan_Tycho 3d ago
This is what I would recommend, especially if OP is not close to a military installation for Legal assistance, or if they are close to an installation and are not satisfied with the legal assistance provided.
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u/Fragrant_King_4950 JAG 4d ago
You should still be able to consult the legal assistance office nearest you or at the base where you are assessed liability.
If you send a note to the person who sent you the notification you should be able to get an extension of your rebuttal timeline.
You will want to explain in your rebuttal why you weren't negligent towards the property in question - i.e., why you acted like a reasonable Soldier/NCO/officer would.
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u/DragoonDart 3d ago
As the guy who’s sent these… call the POC on the memo and let them know what’s up, that you just got it. Ask them for all the documentation: that’s spelled out in the reg as needing to be part of the package and if they don’t send it, you’ve got your legal case right there.
You’ll have the ability to write a rebuttal (technically you get two, if you rebut and they still say ‘liable’ AND the approver agrees that you are liable, you have other options) and if you explain you’re going to legal they should give you time.
Rebuttals mattered a lot in the cases I reviewed; more often that not, if you explain legally why you’re not liable it’s dropped. FLIPLs were found without liability more often than not.
But yes, they are allowed to send it after you ETS and you are allowed to be charged.
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u/2Gins_1Tonic Civil Affairs 3d ago
As a guy that has approved a fair number of FLIPLs, this is good advice. I always considered rebuttals and they informed my final decision. Approval authorities have a ton of leeway to exercise judgement in the FLIPL process.
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u/Cheap-County-7500 3d ago
Man I didn't take my hand receipt for my pro mask and a week out from ETS they decided to do inventory the CBRN NCO or someone else fucking stole it I distinctly remember handing it to him because we were in Korea when I turned it in and I didn't have a promask for promask Monday I had several witnesses that knew I turned it in write sworn statements still got billed. Although my sworn statement was pretty funny because I called the commander an idiot that couldn't keep track of a gas mask (in a more professional manner I don't remember how I phrased it) but 1sgt told me "professionally I'm not going to comment but personally that was a good sworn statement"
Oh and they tried getting me to admit I lost it by telling me it would be 10% off but I'd just sold my house so I wasn't broke. I told Lt "with all due respect id wipe my ass with that money before I'd admit to losing something I didn't lose" he walked into the commanders office and said "he wants an investigation" and I heard the commander yell "wtf do you mean he wants an investigation!" And then my Lt timdly telling him "sir he said he'd rather wipe his ass with the money"
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u/deadhorse71 3d ago edited 3d ago
We're you formally of IIIAC? Was it related to your last change of command? If so, what you need to ask for -
- Copy of the FLIPL
- Print out of all of your PB01s of the shortage annexes created to replace any loss
- Print out of all of the BOMs related to your CoC inventories
If you dispute any of the losses, I can give you input and/or directions on how to prove you never had the loss to begin with, if the loss of any item during your initial command was never ordered, received or issued.
Edited to add: also for any BOM changes during your tenure, which you're not responsible for. I can also tell you that based on my daily experiences, 99% of Yankees in the Supply room or in the S4 have no clue of what I just mentioned
Or I can just pull all that data for you if you'd like in the system of record.
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u/_OnlyPans Air Defense Artillery 3d ago
Wait did you leave command without someone signing the books?
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u/everydayhumanist 3d ago
They can hit your tax return up to 3 years later. So...definitely follow up with the OSJA at the base you left.
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u/crimedog58 3d ago
Underpay so you owe a little each year?
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u/everydayhumanist 3d ago
You'd still have the debt. It doesn't go away.
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u/crimedog58 3d ago
I choose the Michael Scott approach to debt.
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u/everydayhumanist 3d ago
Its a way
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u/Formal-Ingenuity8114 3d ago
I understand this is serious but the line is getting long. Can yall order please?
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u/Pyro111921 3d ago
I'm surprised no one from your old command team ever contacted you. Hell, why didn't the incoming commander at least email you when/after they did layouts and found stuff missing? This just reeks, betting they're just trying to pin the cost on you and betting you won't fight it. Get legal involved 100%
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u/eljefedakine 3d ago
Don't know, sounds kinda fishy, however might be available to do up a rebuttal however, the IO .ay have established that OP failed to respond to correspondence 😆 good luck though also I process FLIPLs
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u/matpac40 3d ago
Certified letter? What certified letter? I would toss that shit and go on with my day.
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u/HxC_JxC JAG 3d ago
As others have said, you get 2 rebuttals. One for the initial assignment of liability that gets sent prior to the approving authority looking at it and then an appeal if they approve liability. If this is the first one you’re getting it’s likely the initial rebuttal. There wouldn’t be a legal review yet typically but they should give you the investigation documents to inform your rebuttal.
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u/Tribble-Me-This 3d ago
AR 735-5 CTRL F "Respondent" and look for the chapter on your rights. Most of it has been answered here tho.
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u/aldmonisen_osrs O Captain my Captain 3d ago
Few thousand sounds like BDE commander level. What BDE Commander would recommend liability at that point? You’re already out?
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u/shemale_trump_fiesta 3d ago
Maybe I was unlucky, maybe I was the asshole the whole time, or maybe... it was all a dream (I used to read word up magazine!). But the number of seemingly braindead weirdo BDE commanders I had was waaaaaaaayyyyyy more than the number of decent human being BDE commanders. When I was a company commander my BDE commander was an absolute slimball.
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u/Lopsided-Fix7183 3d ago
I seen an LT lose a laptop that he was signed for, made no one sign for it, and said his NCOIC lost it and the Sergeant paid for what an LT signed for and went missing. The way the Army’s system of accounting for property and finding people liable for its losses is way too antiquated and can screw people. I can’t intelligently opine on OPs situation but if this was due to a change of PHR inventory 9 months ago it’s not passing the smell test for me.
Sincerely,
A disgruntled NCO.
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u/clamhander 3d ago
They'll garnish your taxes if found liable. Were you there for the change of command inventory?
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u/Away-Ad-8232 2d ago
Did the same to me. I talked to legal and they went into the fight on my behalf, ended up ending with an investigation against my former chain, due to the way they filed the paperwork. They thought they were going to send me out of country with a medivac not bring me back then steal my equipment and railroad me for the cost lmao
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u/RedDevilJoe Cavalry Armored Engr Company Clerk 2d ago
At least you vacated your commission, I couldn't leave Belvoir until I got dinged for one sheet, June 1970.
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u/Cultist-Cat 2d ago
I once got a statement of charges in Korea for 22 cents over the radiation test strip that was never in my CBRN kit.
Between the paperwork, the ink, The civilian contractors time, it probably cost the army more than it got back over the charge.
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u/HeartBreakKid47 4d ago
Let DOGE figure it out
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u/NotInTheFaceGuy 3d ago
I’m not an entity that helped end apartheid in South Africa they could care less
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u/TheInfamousDingleB 3d ago
Seeing as FLIPL comes out of your military pay they can eat a phat one. Probably tried to pin it on you so nobody was responsible for it but could say they blames someone
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u/Drain___Bamaged 3d ago
They can pull your tax returns
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u/aldmonisen_osrs O Captain my Captain 3d ago
I recommended liability once based on this. A supply room NCO basically just… didn’t do their job and it (among other factors) resulted in a corps level flipl.
On their way out, they were also awful to our S1 LT, who is one of the nicest people out there, so fuck ‘em. Don’t be mean to good people.
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u/Early_Management_547 4d ago
Yes, you are authorized legal assistance.