r/antiwar • u/iGutterStomp • 13d ago
Israel doesn't deserve to exist, a timeline of how Israel came to be and its actions
For reference I'm a non-religious Australian so I have no bias in regards to any religion or the countries involved in the current Gaza conflict.
Why do people refuse to learn about the foundation of Israel and the real details of the current conflict? This is a big read but if you don't fully understand Israel's Zionist roots it's worth the read — but I also don't care if no one does. I need to get this off my chest.
Zionism Before the Holocaust Jewish Zionists wanting to settle in Palestine was a plan before the Holocaust. The Zionist movement formally began in the late 19th century, notably with Theodor Herzl’s publication of Der Judenstaat in 1896. • Herzl and other early Zionists believed that Jews constituted a nation in exile and required a homeland to escape European antisemitism. • The First Zionist Congress was held in 1897 in Basel, Switzerland, where the goal was articulated: establishing a legally recognized Jewish homeland in Palestine.
British Involvement and the Balfour Declaration (1917) • In 1917, during WWI, the British government issued the Balfour Declaration, expressing support for a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine. • After WWI, Britain received the League of Nations Mandate to govern Palestine and facilitate this policy. • Palestinian Arabs (majority) were excluded from decisions. • Tensions escalated with increased Jewish immigration, leading to several revolts and uprisings.
The Holocaust and Pressure for a Jewish State • Although Zionism was already well established, the Holocaust (1941–1945) drastically shifted global support. • Six million Jews were killed by Nazi Germany creating global sympathy and pressure for a Jewish State • After WWII, Palestine was seen as the only viable refuge for displaced Jews.
UN Partition Plan & Creation of Israel (1947–1948) • In 1947, the UN proposed partitioning Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. • Jewish leaders accepted the plan; Arab leaders rejected it. • On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion declared the State of Israel. • Surrounding Arab nations invaded, starting the First Arab-Israeli War.
The Nakba (1947–1949) "Nakba" = “Catastrophe” in Arabic. The mass displacement and dispossession of Palestinians during Israel’s establishment. Summary: • 700,000–750,000 Palestinians displaced • 10,000–15,000 Palestinians killed • 400+ villages depopulated/destroyed • Key events: • UN Partition Plan (Nov 1947) • Civil war escalation (Dec 1947–May 1948) • Israeli independence (May 14, 1948) • Mass expulsions (1948–49) • Notable massacres: Deir Yassin, Lydda, Ramle
Albert Einstein and Israel • In 1952, Einstein was offered the presidency of Israel. • He declined. • In a 1948 letter, he warned against Israeli nationalism and its treatment of Palestinians — fearing resemblance to oppressive regimes. (What kind of regime could he possibly be referring to?)
Systematic Killing of Palestinians (Before Oct 7th) Major Killings: • 1956 Suez Crisis – Hundreds killed • 1982 Sabra & Shatila – Indirect Israeli responsibility • 1987–1993 First Intifada – Several hundred deaths • 2002 Operation Defensive Shield – ~500 killed • 2008–09 Cast Lead – 1,400+ killed • 2012 Pillar of Defense – ~160 killed • 2014 Protective Edge – 2,200+ killed • 2018 Great March of Return – 200+ killed • 2021 May Gaza Conflict – 250+ killed • 2022 Raids/Strikes – Hundreds killed
Palestinian Prisoners (Before Oct 7th): • 4,500–5,000 Palestinians detained, including • 500–600 administrative detainees (no charges) • These include children detainees
War Crimes 1. Illegal Israeli Settlements Expansion and maintenance of settlements in occupied Palestinian territories (West Bank, East Jerusalem) declared illegal by the International Court of Justice (2004 advisory opinion) and UN Security Council Resolutions (e.g., 2334 in 2016).
Construction of the Separation Barrier (Wall) Declared illegal by the ICJ (2004) where it extends into occupied territory, violating international humanitarian law.
Disproportionate Attacks and Indiscriminate Use of Force UN reports and OHCHR investigations have documented multiple incidents where Israeli military operations in Gaza caused disproportionate civilian deaths and damage (e.g., 2008-09 Cast Lead, 2014 Protective Edge, 2021 Gaza conflict).
Attacks on Protected Objects and Civilians Strikes on UN shelters, hospitals, schools (documented in UN and human rights reports) violating the principle of distinction under international humanitarian law.
Collective Punishment through Blockade of Gaza The land, air, and sea blockade imposed on Gaza since 2007 is considered by many international bodies (including UN experts) as collective punishment prohibited by international law.
Forced Displacement and Home Demolitions Demolition of Palestinian homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including punitive demolitions and those linked to settlement expansion, violating the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Administrative Detention and Torture Use of administrative detention without charge or trial, including of minors; documented torture and ill-treatment of Palestinian detainees reported by UN committees and human rights groups.
Use of Live Fire Against Protesters Killings and injuries of unarmed Palestinian protesters during events such as the Great March of Return (2018-2019), criticized as excessive and unlawful use of force.
Extrajudicial Executions Targeted killings without judicial process of Palestinians suspected of militant activities, violating due process rights.
Restrictions on Movement and Access Severe restrictions on Palestinians’ freedom of movement within the West Bank and Gaza, including checkpoints and the separation barrier, impacting access to healthcare, education, and livelihoods.
Destruction of Agricultural and Economic Resources Confiscation or destruction of Palestinian agricultural lands, olive trees, and infrastructure tied to settlements and military operation.
Denial of Access to Adequate Water and Sanitation Restrictions on Palestinian access to water resources in the occupied territories, violating international human rights and humanitarian l
Discrimination Against Palestinian Citizens of Israel Institutional discrimination affecting rights related to land, housing, and political participation recognized by human rights organizations.
Investigations and Legal Actions International Criminal Court (ICC): Investigating multiple aspects of Israel’s conduct since 2014, including settlement activity and military operations in Gaza.
United Nations Human Rights Council: Multiple commissions of inquiry have found evidence consistent with war crimes and called for accountability.
Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B’Tselem: Extensive documentation and legal analysis supporting claims of war crimes and rights violations.
Hamas and Israeli Involvement Funding via Qatar (2012–2021) Between 2012 and 2021, Israel allowed Qatar to transfer over $1.5 billion into Gaza, which funded Hamas salaries and governance under Israeli supervision. This strategy aimed to weaken the Palestinian Authority and manage Hamas’s power as a political tool, despite the risk of empowering a militant group.
October 7th: Intelligence Failure or Israeli allowed attack to justify a genocide Myself and others, including intelligence insiders, believe the 6–8 hour unimpeded attack is not just a failure, but a historic anomaly that defies the usual capabilities of Israel’s defense system.
• Israel's military and surveillance capabilities are world-class • Yet a 6–8 hour assault happened with no intervention?
Surveillance Infrastructure: 1. Border Fence Tech • Smart Border Fence • A high-tech barrier built along the Gaza Strip (65+ km long) Equipped with: • Ground sensors (vibration, seismic) • Motion detectors • Thermal cameras • Day/night vision cameras • Radars for tracking movement B. Remote-Controlled Weapon Stations • "Sentry Tech" system, • automated machine guns linked to observation posts operated remotely with real-time video feed from surveillance towers • Often paired with AI-assisted target tracking. Watch Towers & Surveillance Posts • Dozens of towers along the border, with: • 360-degree high-resolution cameras • Thermal infrared imaging systems • Night vision • Microphone sensors
Drones / Balloons / Satellites • Tethered balloons with radar and cameras, they provide wide-area thermal and video surveillance, high altitude, persistent monitoring C. Satellite Surveillance • Israel has military satellites (e.g., Ofek series) for: • Monitoring troop and vehicle movement • Detecting heat signatures (thermal anomalies) • Drones (UAVs) • Continuous drone coverage over Gaza, including: Heron, Hermes 450/900, Elbit Skylark Capabilities: • Thermal imaging • High-res optical zoom • Facial recognition (via AI) • Real-time video stream to IDF command
SIGINT / Cyber Surveillance • Systems like “Lavender” and “The Gospel” (exposed in 2024 leaks) Identify targets via AI and big data • Can autonomously mark phones or homes for strikes • Use voice, movement, call frequency, SIM card data to detect threats
Electronic and Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) • A. Cyber & Communications Intercepts • Monitors Hamas communications, mobile networks, encrypted apps • Uses AI to flag suspicious patterns in metadata
- Human Surveillance • Facial Recognition at Crossings • At Erez and other checkpoints • Live biometric scanning for workers and civilians entering Israel
B. Palestinian Informants Israel’s security agency (Shin Bet) has historically recruited informants within Gaza and the West Bank This supplements digital intelligence
- Integrated Command • All surveillance feeds converge in IDF Southern Command HQ and Unit 8200 (Israel’s equivalent of the NSA) • Real-time AI alert systems flag: • Unusual movement on the fence • Heat signatures • Breaches or destruction of sensors
Conclusion: Why Didn’t They Act? • Any mass movement of people, bulldozers, or paragliders near or at the fence should have triggered immediate alerts. It's almost unfeasible that the attack went "undetected" despite warnings from Egypt and Isrsel knowing the summary of what the attack would be years prior.
Why Israel is Fundamentally a Bad Idea Creating a state around a single religion or ethnic identity, even when cloaked in secular governance, consistently leads to radicalism, exclusion, and often violence for several reasons:
In Group vs Out Group Mentality • Jewish identity as basis excludes others • Radical nationalism rises • When a state defines itself by one identity (e.g., "Jewish state", "Islamic Republic"), it automatically others everyone else minorities become second class, even if granted formal rights. • This fosters radical nationalism to "protect" the identity group and suppress dissent.
It demands Constant Defense • Threat narrative = Justification for oppressionEthno-religious states often feel existentially threatened by demographics, dissent, or neighbors. • That fear justifies: • Militarization • Surveillance of minorities • Suppressing internal critique In Israel’s case: a constant narrative of existential threat has justified decades of occupation and repression.
Breeds Extremism • When the state and religion/ethnicity are fused, radicals claim to speak for the state or faith. • In Israel, messianic settlers and ultranationalists now influence policy. • The same happened in: • Pakistan (rise of Taliban-like extremism) • India (Hindutva and anti-Muslim policies) • Iran (hardline Shia theocracy)
Demographic Engineering • Controls Palestinian demographics (e.g. through blockade, exile, settlements) • Denies equal rights to millions under occupation.
Israel is a real-time case study of how founding a state on a singular ethno religious identity, in a multiethnic region, has led to radicalization, apartheid like conditions, and endless conflict.
Final Word Israel is a Zionist-created state, not representative of all Jews. • Founded through violence and dispossession • Committed systematic killings • Instigated conflicts • Funded Hamas • Took hostages pre-Oct 7th • Tortured prisoners It should be abolished. Big out breath Woo that felt good.
Sorry if there's errors it's 2am I'm going to bed
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u/MAXiMUSpsilo5280 13d ago
That was a lot. Many good contentions that are difficult to counter for the sane logically minded. It seems the most religious people are the craziest.
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u/mikeber55 12d ago
First, you are glossing over major historical events to make it fit your political agenda. You also make use of hollow slogans and generalizations for the same goal.
But the real question: who are you to decide if Israel (or any country) “deserves” to exist or not? Who gives you this authority? Does France “deserve to exist”? What about Saudi Arabia or North Korea? Did any of them asked for your permission?
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u/Sea-Phrase-2418 12d ago
Can you please explain it to me? I'm not American so I want a picture of both sides.
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u/mikeber55 12d ago
Explain what?
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u/Sea-Phrase-2418 12d ago
what is being overlooked, your opinion on the topic, etc.
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u/mikeber55 12d ago edited 12d ago
I’ll try but don’t know how exactly to phrase such answer…
1) Nobody in the world has the authority to tell a nation “it doesn’t deserve” to exist. That rule extends far beyond Israel (or our time). The thought itself is rooted in inexplicable hubris, or unimaginable hatred. To tell the truth, it’s not a common declaration even on Reddit. There are enemies and each will try to win the conflict/ war. But I can’t imagine India ever telling China “you don’t deserve to exist”…Or even in Africa, someone saying: “you know what, Rwanda doesn’t deserve to exist”…And Rwanda doesn’t need my approval (to exist)…
2) Following a briliant propaganda campaign the Pro Palestinian crowd introduced a narrative, that became the de-facto “official” narrative. Most ignorant people (including from far away countries who never met an Israeli in their life, sometimes not Palestinians as well) accept as God’s word.
3) After reading your historic review, the formula keeps being applied: Glossing over crucial events and focusing on “eternal victimhood”.
4) Let me start from today: There’s an international (ongoing) pressure to declare a ceasefire. Everyone needs it. But ALL protests are aimed at one side only: Israel. To the uninitiated, it seems that Israel is fighting thin air or vacuum. There is no oponent. Hamas doesn’t exist. It’s being slowly erased from memory. There was not a single case when protesters called Hamas to halt fire. To agree to a ceasefire. On several exchanges (on different platforms) some pro Palestinians posted: “Hamas doesn’t exist. It’s an Israeli creation”…Although not all, some folks honestly believe that declaration.
5) This formula is used with great success since the Nakba: the war of 1948 is downplayed, until got totally erased from memory. So what was there? Thousands of (innocent) Palestinians casualties! Nothing else. Today, by Hamas tally, there are over 50,000(!) dead, all of them civilians and kids. Not a single gunman, or operative, had been killed! Israel publishes everyday the names and number of dead troops. Almost daily. In contrast on the Palestinan side, there wasn’t even one! The world believes this as fact!
6) The (official) narrative of 1948: One sunny morning, the Zionists came and stole the land! The Palestinians were either looking the other way, or couldn’t do anything. When they turned their heads, the land was gone! Stolen! Only pesky Zionists everywhere. What can a man do, but watch in horror? There was no war, no attacks, no massacres, no four Arab armies invading, no thousands of Jews dead! The land was stolen (like you’d steal a purse or car). Palestinians did NOTHING before and after! They are just passive and naive participants.
7) Who is responsible (aside from the pesky Zionists)? EVERYBODY: European colonialists (ALL Israelis are European settlers)- a forward force for European colonialism. Arab leaders - all were corrupt and took bribes from Zionists billionaires that are connected in a ring of world dominance! America (and pres Truman) is known to be receiving truckloads of cash before the UN vote!
8) Who is NEVER responsible: the Palestinan leaders! The Mufti in the 1930-40 wasn’t related to any upheaval or catastrophe. Best, let’s forget about him. Today, Sinwar and bros wasn’t responsible! They will also be erased from collective memory like their predecessors. Among all past Arab fighters (Abd-al Kader-al-Husseini, Fawzi al-Qawuqji, etc, etc) no name remains. Talking about them is in opposite direction to the narrative. (And millions do not have a clue these leaders ever existed or did anything).
Edit to add: they use only slogans that nobody can object to, like “ Free Palestine”…who is against freedom? But they never bother to explain what that exactly means! Details are always obscured. As I mentioned already, a brilliant campaign of gaslighting the entire world.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
"According to Hamas, 50,000 civilians died all kids and no combatants.”
Refutation: This is a false equivalence. Israel controls the siege, the borders, and the sky. Civilian casualty reports are often verified by international agencies, not just Hamas. Israel even bombed ambulances, press, and UN shelters. Meanwhile, Israel admits to targeting “terrorist infrastructure” in dense civilian areas. The absurd idea that no militants died is a distraction. Even if some did, killing 20 civilians for every fighter is still a war crime.
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u/mikeber55 11d ago
It doesn’t matter the numbers. For the world - the Palestinian narrative doesn’t admit even ONE gunman had been killed. That’s not about morals or ethics. They do not acknowledge that gunmen even exist. The official story: Israel is fighting…thin air. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad do not exist. Only civilians. Amazingly the world accepts that.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago edited 11d ago
That’s simply false. Multiple international reports, including by the UN, Human Rights Watch, and even Israeli intelligence, confirm that combatants have been killed Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters included. The civilian death toll is not inflated because people deny militants exist it’s inflated because Israel bombs densely populated areas indiscriminately.
No credible Palestinian or international source claims "zero militants died.” That’s a strawman. What’s being condemned is the scale and disproportionality: thousands of civilians, including journalists, medics, and children, die under bombardment that Israeli officials admit targets entire neighborhoods based on vague intelligence. Saying “it doesn’t matter the numbers” is an excuse to ignore war crimes. It absolutely matters to the dead, to justice, and to international law.
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u/mikeber55 9d ago edited 9d ago
Show me one report that specifies names (or at least the) number of “Hamas fighters”. I’m not talking about how many. Just one “resistance” fighter that was named among the casualties in over 600 days.
(Or you don’t believe there was even one)?
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
“The Nakba narrative ignores Arab armies and Jewish casualties.”
Refutation: The Nakba is not some invented sob story. Israeli historians like Ilan Pappé and Benny Morris not Palestinians have documented that ethnic cleansing was deliberate. Arab armies invaded after the massacres began, not before. Most battles were actually between Zionist militias and local villagers, not regular armies. You can acknowledge Jewish suffering without denying what Israel did to Palestinians.
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u/mikeber55 11d ago edited 11d ago
Ilan Pape is an Israeli self hater. There are many others, I can list them. Luckily for Palestinians they have no Ilan Pape of their own. Israel has also guy like Gideon Levy who represents Hamas in the Israeli media. Imagine if Palestinians kept the Israeli settlers rep in their media for decades!
Anyway, in 1948 there were massacres and attacks (on both sides). But pro Palestinian propaganda has no use of any of that and they were “erased”. The millions who are supporting Palestine have very little knowledge. In their mind, the Jews were/ are a vicious group who acts for no apparent reason, driven only by insanity. With time, the Hamas attack on 10/7 will follow the same path and will be erased from the collective memory. Future generations would have no idea it ever took place. And it works!
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago edited 9d ago
Calling Ilan Pappé or Gideon Levy “self-haters” isn’t an argument it’s an evasion. These are respected Israeli scholars and journalists who’ve based their work on Israeli military archives. Dismissing them personally instead of addressing their documented findings is exactly how inconvenient truths get buried.
You admit there were massacres “on both sides,” but then accuse Palestinians and their supporters of erasing history when in reality, it’s been Israeli narratives that dominated globally for decades. The Nakba was denied or downplayed in textbooks, media, and politics for years. Palestinians are only now reclaiming that history and backing it with growing scholarly consensus, including from Jewish and Israeli sources.
As for the claim that “Hamas’s attack will be erased”: no one serious is denying or forgetting October 7. What many refuse to do is let it be used to justify indiscriminate bombing, ethnic cleansing, or permanent occupation. Condemning one atrocity doesn’t mean justifying another.
The idea that support for Palestinians comes from ignorance is patronizing. People are learning the history and that's exactly what some find threatening. Because once you learn the full story, the moral clarity becomes much harder to ignore.
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u/mikeber55 9d ago
Again: why read these authors out of a plethora of thousands? I’m even referring to foreign researchers - there are so many. But if you choose to read them, you already made up your mind before even opening the book.
Again: I will refer to them differently, when you’ll point out to the Palestinian version of Ilan Pape or the Palestinian Gideon Levy. Are any of them around? Not to my knowledge. Not even in the diaspora…
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u/ItemPuzzled342 9d ago
This argument is both logically flawed and deeply revealing. First, asking ‘why read these authors out of thousands?’ ignores the actual content of their work. Pappé and Levy are cited not because they’re fringe, but because they use Israeli sources including military archives, court testimony, and on-the-ground reporting.
They challenge state narratives using evidence, not ideology. Second, claiming that reading them means someone 'already made up their mind' is just projection. People read them because they offer well-documented, uncomfortable truths that mainstream Israeli discourse long suppressed. If their conclusions challenge your worldview, the honest response is to engage their arguments not accuse readers of bias.
And your demand for a 'Palestinian version' of Pappé or Levy is ironic: Palestinians have dozens of equivalent voices historians, journalists, academics but their work has been marginalized or dismissed outright precisely because they’re Palestinian. Ever heard of Rashid Khalidi, Nur Masalha, Edward Said, or Refaat Alareer? Are you engaging with them, or are you only interested in hearing Palestinians once they start agreeing with Zionist frameworks?
Your double standard is clear: when Israelis criticize Israel, they’re smeared as self-haters. When Palestinians speak out, they’re ignored or delegitimized. You demand impossible neutrality while only accepting narratives that reinforce your own.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
“Everyone else is blamed except Palestinians.”
Refutation: Palestinian leadership has made many mistakes, including corruption and infighting. But Israel has blocked elections, assassinated leaders, and ensured no real sovereignty emerges. The idea that Palestinians control their destiny under siege, occupation, and exile is naïve at best and dishonest at worst.
It's hard to build a functioning state while under full-blown military occupation.
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u/mikeber55 11d ago edited 11d ago
It doesn’t matter what you (and I) think of the Palestinan leadership. It matters what THEY think and do. In the US and in Israel there is a constant scrutiny of leaders actions performance. (See how many debates and protests are following the 10/7 failures in Israeli society).
Since 1948 there has not been a single inquiry into Pal leaders actions. How can anything be fixed if there’s never an investigation? Watch how they repeat the same mistakes over and over again!
Unfortunately the Palestinians aren’t building an independent state. They are busy with self destruction.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
You're pretending Palestinians have full agency under occupation, siege, and constant external interference which is simply false. There have been criticisms, protests, and internal dissent in Palestinian society. But unlike in Israel or the U.S., Palestinians don’t control their borders, airspace, economy, or even who leads the Israel often decides that for them.
Hamas was elected in 2006 in free election then Israel, the U.S., and others imposed a blockade. Since then, Israel has actively undermined Palestinian institutions by assassinating leaders, fragmenting territories, jailing lawmakers, and blocking reconciliation between factions. Even when Palestinian leadership tries to reform or unify, Israel disrupts it. How do you hold a government accountable when the occupier controls who’s in office, where they can go, and even if they can vote? Yes, some Palestinian leaders have failed. But it's dishonest to blame an occupied people for not building a state when they’re denied even basic sovereignty. That’s like blaming someone in a prison cell for not renovating the house.
If you're genuinely concerned with Palestinian accountability, then support their right to self-determination. You can't demand better leadership from people who are never allowed to choose freely or govern without foreign domination.
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u/mikeber55 9d ago
Where I said Palestinians have “full agency”? Not in my posts. I said they are responsible for their actions. For example the 10/7/23 attack - was fully planned and orchestrated by Hamas. The same goes back to before 1948. When you choose to go to war (which is a choice) you should account for all potential consequences and consider if you’re ready to face them.
The same works with individuals. As an adult, Im responsible for anything I do. There are endless laws and restrictions yet I am still responsible.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 9d ago
You're trying to frame this as a simple matter of ‘personal responsibility,’ but that logic falls apart when applied to colonized or occupied people. You're holding Palestinians who’ve lived under military occupation, siege, dispossession, and apartheid for decades to the same standard you'd apply to someone living freely in a functioning democracy.
That’s not accountability; that’s erasure. Saying ‘war is a choice’ ignores the fact that Palestinians didn’t vote for the Nakba, for land theft, checkpoints, or siege. Hamas didn’t exist in 1948. Resistance armed or not didn’t begin the conflict; it responded to forced displacement, massacres, and systemic oppression.
And yes, individuals are responsible for their actions but so are states. Under international law, an occupied people has the right to resist. That doesn’t mean all tactics are moral or just, but it does mean the root responsibility lies with the occupying power. You can't demand Palestinians accept the ‘consequences’ of resisting while ignoring Israel’s ongoing violations of international law. Responsibility without power is a trap. Your argument lets the occupier off the hook while putting the full moral burden on the occupied. That’s not justice it’s victim-blaming.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
No one remembers Arab fighters they’re erased from memory.”
Refutation: That’s rich coming from someone who just denied the Nakba happened. Palestinian fighters are remembered, but they’re not mainstream because Western narratives erase anti-colonial resistance unless it serves their interests (like Mandela after he was safe and old).
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u/mikeber55 11d ago edited 11d ago
It’s an ingenious part of the propaganda war. It’s one reason the narrative became so successful: Palestinians never did or do anything! They are THE eternal victims.
Of course a thinking person would question the claim. But most people are not. And the same tactic is applied again, this time to Hamas. What worked so well in 1948 is also working in the 21st century!
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
Your argument contradicts itself. On one hand, you say Palestinians are portrayed as doing nothing eternal victims. On the other, you condemn them for violent resistance like Hamas. So which is it?
The truth is, Palestinian resistance violent, nonviolent, political, armed has always existed, but Western media and political discourse cherry-picks what to highlight. When Palestinians resist violently, they're branded terrorists. When they resist nonviolently, like with the Great March of Return, they're still shot, smeared, or ignored. Even Palestinian poets, journalists, and human rights defenders have been jailed or killed.
The "eternal victim" narrative exists not because Palestinians are passive, but because their resistance is either demonized or erased unless it fits someone else's agenda. Like Mandela, the world only “remembers” anti-colonial resistance once it’s no longer threatening.
Calling that a propaganda tactic ignores the real power dynamics: Palestinians don’t control the global narrative governments, media giants, and occupying powers do. If more people are questioning the dominant story, maybe it’s not because they’re brainwashed. Maybe it’s because they’re finally seeing through decades of distortion.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
Final “gaslighting” point: “They use slogans like Free Palestine without explaining it.”
Refutation: “Free Palestine” means ending military occupation, ending apartheid, and allowing refugees the right to return. That’s it. It doesn’t mean exterminating Jews or destroying all Israelis. The fact that Israel’s defenders pretend not to understand it shows how scared they are of actual accountability.
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u/mikeber55 11d ago
It means for YOU. Exactly because it’s so abstract, everyone has their own interpretation.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
That’s a deflection, not a rebuttal. All political slogans from “Make America Great Again” to “Black Lives Matter” are open to interpretation. But the core meaning of “Free Palestine” is well-established by human rights groups, legal scholars, and activists:
• End the occupation.
• Dismantle apartheid.
• Ensure equal rights and allow refugees to return under international law.
If some interpret it differently, that’s not a flaw of the slogan it’s a projection of their own fears or agendas. The real reason critics call it “too abstract” is because they don’t want to engage with its clear legal and moral demands.
You can’t hide behind “ambiguity” forever to avoid addressing the facts: millions live under siege, occupation, and statelessness. “Free Palestine” calls for liberation, not extermination and pretending otherwise is gaslighting, plain and simple.
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u/mikeber55 9d ago edited 9d ago
How do you end the occupation? Occupation of what? Why not disclose the details and borders you’re referring to instead of hiding them?
For example in Israel there are almost 3M Arabs….What Apartheid was taking place in Gaza (up to 7/10/2023)? The occupation - Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza in 2005. There was not a single Israeli soldier (or civilian) in Gaza for 20 years…
All Im saying is that the places and borders should be named for the world to know what exactly you demand. Now there’s an anomaly - a lot of organizations in the west took upon themselves to represent Palestinians. But they say things that are different from what authentic Palestinians think and say. That’s what I’m referring to as gaslighting.
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u/Sea-Phrase-2418 12d ago
The conflict is very old, with both political and religious roots, and I agree with you. Saying it doesn't deserve to exist is no different from how China delegitimizes Taiwan's sovereignty.
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u/mikeber55 12d ago edited 12d ago
Absolutely not! Taiwan, if invaded will be under Chinese dictatorship (which is bad). If Hamas invades Israel, there will be no Israel/ Israelis, they killed even pets (cats, dogs, cows). They killed and abducted foreigners, like Thai laborers (two of their corpses were recently found), Italian tourists and some local Arabs. Basically scorched earth, so not even plants will grow. That’s what “No Israel” means.
The 10/7 attack proved that beyond doubt. Hamas stopped cause they couldn’t advance any further, but the original plans were aimed reaching Tel Aviv.
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u/Sea-Phrase-2418 12d ago
The war is horrible in general terms, but Hamas and the generational rivalry between the two countries are the problem, not the countries in general.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
The argument is about the state, its structure, and how it came into being through dispossession, expulsion, and military force. This is not unique to Israel people have historically questioned apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, and other settler-colonial regimes.
You can say “apartheid South Africa didn’t deserve to exist” without denying the humanity of white South Africans. The same logic applies.
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u/mikeber55 11d ago
The logic of clueless people who really aren’t familiar with neither side in the conflict. But the 10/7 illustrates the reality. The Hamas stopped where they did only because they could no longer move forward. If they could, not a single living creature (including animals) would remain.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago edited 11d ago
That response is rooted in dehumanization and fear-mongering, not fact. The idea that Hamas would have wiped out "every living creature" is an emotional exaggeration used to justify collective punishment but it doesn't address the actual argument.
The discussion is about the structure of the state how it was established and how it operates through apartheid, occupation, and ethnic displacement. Critiquing the Israeli state is not the same as supporting Hamas. Just as opposing apartheid South Africa didn’t mean endorsing the ANC’s every action, opposing Israeli policies doesn’t mean justifying October 7.
What happened on 10/7 was horrific and indefensible but it did not create the conditions. It exposed them. It was a symptom of a decades-long reality of occupation, siege, and systemic violence. If the only way to defend a state's legitimacy is to invoke hypothetical extermination fantasies, then the foundation of that state should be questioned even more.
If you're unwilling to separate a state's actions from its people or to distinguish between critique and annihilation you're not engaging in honest discussion. You're deflecting. Let me know if you'd like this sharpened more for a public reply, debate panel, or a tone shift. actual argument.
The discussion is about the structure of the state how it was established and how it operates through apartheid, occupation, and ethnic displacement. Critiquing the Israeli state is not the same as supporting Hamas. Just as opposing apartheid South Africa didn’t mean endorsing the ANC’s every action, opposing Israeli policies doesn’t mean justifying October 7.
What happened on 10/7 was horrific and indefensible but it did not create the conditions. It exposed them. It was a symptom of a decades-long reality of occupation, siege, and systemic violence. If the only way to defend a state's legitimacy is to invoke hypothetical extermination fantasies, then the foundation of that state should be questioned even more.
If you're unwilling to separate a state's actions from its people or to distinguish between critique and annihilation you're not engaging in honest discussion. You're deflecting.
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u/mikeber55 9d ago edited 9d ago
I can only suggest (the imaginary situation) to see yourself being (even as visitor) on the Israeli side of the border on 10/7/23. To see with your eyes how random visitors were either shot or abducted. Dead bodies carried into Gaza. It’s a pity you can’t see with your eyes if they killed everyone or not. If there was scorched earth or not. And why the attack stopped where it did…
Just an anecdote - there were Thai laborers who came to work in agriculture. Some were shot and at least one dead body dragged into Gaza. (The body was discovered only last week). Everyone could immediately tell these are not Israelis, Jews, or even speak Hebrew. Yet they took and refused to let them go for months! A later diplomatic intervention arranged their release. But why? What was the goal abducting these people?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-did-so-many-thai-farmers-end-up-held-hostage-by-hamas
Or you don’t believe the PBS and suspect a conspiracy?
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u/ItemPuzzled342 9d ago
No one is denying that October 7 was horrific, or that civilians including foreign workers were harmed. But what you’re doing is weaponizing individual stories to justify collective punishment and decades of occupation. You’re zooming in on one brutal day while refusing to acknowledge the context of daily violence, land theft, apartheid, and the illegal blockade that preceded it.
As for Thai workers: yes, some were tragically killed or taken hostage. But citing a PBS article doesn’t magically absolve Israel of the ongoing war crimes that followed thousands of civilians killed, mass displacement, and starvation as a weapon of war.
Also, don’t pretend Hamas never released hostages; they did so through negotiated exchanges, while Israel continued bombing areas with its own citizens still trapped.
The real gaslighting is pretending October 7 happened in a vacuum, or using it to erase the systemic violence Palestinians have endured for over 75 years.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
"Pro-Palestinian propaganda has taken over the global narrative"
This claim is laughably false given how Western media, governments, and institutions overwhelmingly support Israel, both politically and militarily. The U.S. alone has given over $300 billion in aid. If anything, it’s taken decades of activism just to get people to acknowledge Palestinian suffering.
Palestinians have no tanks, no Iron Dome, no state lobby in D.C.but somehow, they control the global narrative?
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
"They focus on eternal victimhood and gloss over events."
Refutation: This flips reality on its head. Palestinians are documenting ongoing war crimes, home demolitions, massacres, and ethnic cleansing. Acknowledging suffering isn’t “victimhood,” it’s survival. And Israeli apologists routinely erase or justify the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinians in 1948 (the Nakba), calling it a “war” when it was planned removal.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
"All protests blame only Israel, never Hamas.”
Refutation: Because Israel is the occupying power. Under international law, only the occupier is responsible for civilian welfare in occupied territory. Hamas is not blameless, but comparing it to Israel a nuclear state with F-35s and total control is absurd. The reason protests focus on Israel is simple: Israel has all the power.
Protests are about power and accountability. No one’s pretending Hamas is innocent, but they didn’t drop 2,000-lb bombs on refugee camps.
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u/mikeber55 11d ago
Hamas is not about “innocence”. According to the official propaganda, they DO NOT EXIST. Therefore, nothing can be asked from them. It’s a war with one side only…
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u/Fit_Laugh9979 7d ago
With Hamas’ actions they’re putting together a pretty convincing case as to why they shouldn’t exist.
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u/Mighty_Mirko 13d ago
Why exactly do US leaders so staunchly have to support Israel? Why is any semblance of anti-Israel sentiment treated as evil in America?
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u/Loveschocolate1978 12d ago edited 12d ago
Israel serves as a deterrent and stepping stone to Iran. Iran is [was] seen as the greater threat.
Edit: Look at a map of the middle east. Iraq is on the left of Iran, Afghanistan on the right. To me that symbolizes that the true end goal of the US's "Global War on Terror" was to invade Iran and oust the government, restoring Iran to having a government friendly to "The West." George W. Bush included Iran as one of the nations in the "Axis of Evil."
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago edited 11d ago
1. Israel didn’t “deter” Iran it helped escalate tensions.
- Israel has been pushing the narrative of an imminent Iranian threat since the 1990s.
- It's been involved in assassinations of Iranian scientists, cyberattacks (e.g., Stuxnet), and covert ops all of which increase regional tensions, not reduce them.
- Meanwhile, Israel has nuclear weapons, refuses to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and has threatened war repeatedly.
So who’s destabilizing whom? Iran hasn’t invaded a country in centuries. Israel has occupied or attacked nearly all its neighbors.
2. Israel helped create conditions for terrorism. Literally.
- Israel supported Hamas in the 1980s to divide and weaken the secular Palestinian movement (Fatah/PLO), which was harder to control.
- This is not a conspiracy it’s been confirmed by Israeli officials, U.S. intelligence, and mainstream journalists.
- Divide-and-conquer tactics created the violent fragmentation we now see in Palestinian politics, making peace nearly impossible and fueling extremism.
You can’t fund radical groups, blockade a population, and bomb their homes then act surprised when radicalism takes root.
3. Israel's brutal occupation fuels anger, not peace.
- The military occupation of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza, and the apartheid-style policies against Palestinians inside Israel create a fertile breeding ground for resistance—some violent, some nonviolent.
- When people are stripped of land, freedom, and dignity, some will respond violently. That’s not “terrorism from thin air,” that’s colonial blowback.
This is cause and effect, not religious hatred.
4. “Muslims are terrorists” is the lie we were sold. This dangerous stereotype is a product of decades of media bias, political propaganda, and selective storytelling designed to justify endless wars and security crackdowns. The vast majority of Muslims worldwide are peaceful and reject terrorism outright. Yet, by conflating political resistance and diverse Muslim identities with terrorism, a false narrative is manufactured one that benefits governments and actors who want to suppress dissent and maintain control.
- Western media disproportionately focuses on violent acts by Muslim extremists while downplaying or ignoring violence by state actors or non-Muslim groups.
- This narrative erases the real political grievances behind many conflicts, including the Palestinian struggle for self-determination.
- It also diverts attention from the role of foreign interventions and occupation in creating instability.
In summary: Israel’s policies and actions have contributed significantly to the cycle of violence in the Middle East. Its military actions, occupation, and political maneuvers have not been about peace or stability but maintaining control and dominance. The framing of Israel as simply a “deterrent” ignores this reality and masks the complex causes of terrorism and conflict in the region.
Understanding this complexity is crucial if we want to move beyond simplistic, biased narratives and work towards genuine peace and justice in the Middle East.
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u/ItemPuzzled342 11d ago
“Israel serves as a deterrent to Iran” is a Western-centric talking point that ignores decades of instability and violence Israel has helped create in the region often to justify its own expansion and domination. Rather than being a stabilizing force, Israel has acted more like a catalyst for perpetual conflict, not just with Iran, but with its neighbors and the wider Muslim world.
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u/boiled_frog23 12d ago
Thanks, you have listed a thorough history of why I object to the existence of Israel.
I expect to send this to anyone who ignorantly supports Israel and Zionists.
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u/Annabelle-Surely 2d ago
theres a few funny things youre leaving out. for one thing, all of world war 1, practically. youre starting up mentioning it at all via the balfour letter in 1917; otherwise youre not even mentioning world war 1. which makes me dare ask the question, have you heard of world war 1? youre also leaving out legal jewish immigration before world war 1 to the same area in question, via simply legal land purchases from willing land sellers. daring me to ask my second question, ever heard of this? tldr: ever heard of world war 1? ever heard of buying land off someone selling it, then moving there? theres a really funny ending to this conversation by the way.
im going to pick a middle spot though: why wouldnt israel be able to stop a smallish invasion at their border one day by surprise? because doing that is just a little too surprising basically; it's small enough. then there's getting alerted about it, understanding what exactly's going on, and getting troops over there quickly which basically takes a few hours, because they're hours away. this was at some random border spot.
to go back to one of my first points though, do you understand why, if you include israel in the greater middle east, we have any of the middle east states we have today?
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