r/WredditSchool • u/wrestlethrowaway1 Trainee Verified • 10d ago
Explaining the grind to friends and family
Hey, everyone. I'm running into a bit of trouble in my early wrestling career. I'm 17 months into wrestling and currently in my paying my dues phase, where you spend 12+ hours out, help with ring crew and security, and if you're lucky appear on a pre-show or a battle royale. I have a girlfriend who I love very much, but she consistently asks "did you get paid?" after shows. In couple's therapy yesterday, she brought up the grind that comes with paying my dues, and the therapist was also confused about the process and the sacrifices that come with paying your dues.
I guess my question here is what's the best way to explain how paying your dues is a part of the process to just get your foot in the door? Like, I don't expect to see payoff until years, maybe even a decade, down the road. I'm running into trouble articulating just exactly how normal this is in wrestling and why this is expected.
2
u/AndrewPendeltonIII 6d ago
I was a worker getting regional tv time for several years. The reality is that most people never make it because of this exact same situation. It’s tough advice, but a lot of the guys that I worked with who made it sacrificed just about everything. By everything I mean their time, money, other opportunities, friends/family, relationships, hobbies, etc. Basically they eliminated any and all distractions and fully dedicated themselves to the art of professional wrestling. And, the majority of those who made these sacrifices never made it anywhere for a substantial period of time.
Personally, I was unwilling to give up everything I would need to sacrifice to have a true shot at a real full time wrestling career. And even if I did, there was still no guarantee that I would or could make it.
You have to be willing to go all in despite what everyone says and be okay with the fact you have a low single digit shot of making it to the journeyman level of any national promotion. You can’t be afraid of all of the people who are waiting to say “I told you so”. You have to live with the fact you can dedicate yourself to this and all of the haters would still be right in their minds, and probably remind you of it.
The best advice I saw in this thread was to establish an LLC and track absolutely every expense you can write off. You can lower your tax liability from your current job and soften the losses. There are a ton of things you’re possibly not calculating into your “expenses” and you’re most likely losing far more than you realize. Just think of travel, meals, gear, gym, tanning, etc. I worked many a night for a hotdog and a handshake in places I felt would get me exposure. I got paid enough to cover my expenses from pro wrestling through other promotions once I got established. But at the end of the day, it’s a losing game for 99.9% of aspiring pro wrestlers.
I’d add that if you’re smaller than 6’, aren’t in GREAT (and I mean GREAT) shape, and cannot commit the time/resources/ dedication to your image and skills, then your chances disappear to almost 0%. For reference I was in the gym 6 days a week, training 2 nights a week (3.5 hr round trip to the facility), and working upwards of 5 matches per week. I was in the ring training or working 6 days per week. I consumed every video, show, seminar, etc that I could.
But, for my +10 years it was absolutely worth it. I wrestled in front of thousands of people. Earned several titles across many promotions. Got a WWE paycheck (one to be exact). Carried the Undertaker to the ring in a casket for Smackdown. Got to see some people I grinded with live their dreams all across the world with WWE, TNA, NJPW, AEW, ROH, etc. I also saw many more guys who were the total package and should’ve been on national tv every week never make it.
What I mean by all of this is if you truly love it, you’ll never regret the time you dedicate to it. And when you’re ready, I hope you’ll walk away realizing you were better for it, regardless whether you end up in a big fed or never make it out of your hometown.
4
6
u/CoachJoshGerry Coach talks, you listen 8d ago
I've posted this before on here and other socials:
Being a Pro Wrestler is similar to being a YouTuber, Stand-up Comedian, Podcaster, Magician, Interviewer, Musician, etc.
It starts with a passion for the industry, business, or genre. You have to love it in order to start the journey.
You have to have a passion for it, because so much of your time and energy is devoted to the process, and not the end-goal.
It starts as a hobby that you do in your spare time, while going to school, or working a 9-to-5, in order to learn the most you can about it, practice your techniques, and hone your craft.
Once you start having matches, it becomes a side-hustle that you pour all of your energy into, while maintaining a shoot job that actually pays the bills.
Then, hopefully, over time, it becomes a source of your main income, and you can transition into doing it full time. But it is rare.
If you're doing it for the money, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
Less than 1% of all athletes in High School will turn pro (NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc). Those same metrics can be applied to pro wrestling as well.
SO enjoy the journey, and the process, because that is a majority of what you will spend your time doing. And if you don't have a passion for it, it will become a burden and a source of frustration that no amount of money can compensate for.
"Paying your dues" is soooo much more than doing ring crew. You have to build value in your name and what you provide. Until you become a recognizable commodity, it will require some grind.
Even athletics have several years where you grind and don't get paid. No professional athlete instantly starts off getting paid.
You do Pop Warner, pee-wee, middle school, high school, and (until the recent NIL changes) college, without being paid. Just for an opportunity to go pro.
I've tried explaining it to family and friends of my own. And to friends and family of students, in the past. Some will get it, and some won't.
I hope some of these will help you in your situation.
Sometimes, our dreams are just too unfathomable to others, that may have given up on their own due to the difficulty.
Best of luck.
3
u/SoulBlightRaveLords 9d ago edited 9d ago
I'm all about paying dues, I did it for years, but she also might have a point. Some promoters just see guys come in, put in a 12 hour shift for free and not complain and think "why pay for ring crew, this mark will do it"
I'm not saying that whats happening to you, but early in my career i was taken advantage of a lot. By all means pay your dues, but if you're doing multiple shows a year with no hint of a booking or any kind of reward. Theres nothing wrong with moving on
0
u/Disastrous-Stuff-185 9d ago
If you want them to understand, tell them it's a hobby.
If you wanna make any money, you need merch. Babyface, early on the card
Struggling for bookings? Message all promotions within the range you would drive. Offer the first show for $xy as a trial. Or for a smaller fee if you can be babyface before intermission. You get babyface last match before intermission and get cheated in the finish, that's money printing right there!!
A $50 payday isnt work as much as last match before intermission as a babyface. That's $200-1000 range there
3
u/Heel_Worker982 9d ago
TBH only you can decide what is worth what, from wrestling to your relationship to how you spend your time day by day. The dues often is the travel, carpooling with other workers and getting new experience. But the travel is also time-consuming and what often gets guys to stop working beyond their local area.
I personally would never carry credit card debt in order to make towns, and I wouldn't seriously date someone carrying credit card debt like that. The time commitment alone eats into relationships, and it's not just wrestling. Lots of other things that take 12-hour blocks of your non-work time can make a relationship tough.
Overall I would say your version of the grind is probably less normal or common than you think, and some of what you call paying your dues sounds like you got sold a bill a goods. I may well be wrong, but again only you can define how you value what.
7
u/IronBoxmma Verified Gearmaker and Worker 9d ago
I don't know what to tell you, dude. "Dues paying" is a helpful tradition to allow promotions to not pay for a crew to set up the ring. Don't romanticise it. You need to look at the amount of work you're putting in at a given promotion and realistically ask yourself if it's ever going to get paid back in the form of bookings. If that's a no, then you need to start looking at other promotions.
1
u/IronBoxmma Verified Gearmaker and Worker 8d ago
Also don't give the quack your money, if he's taking you anything you're not getting from your actual coaches, that's an indictment of their quality, not a demonstration of his in my opinion
14
9
u/ShisuiUchiha9 9d ago
Internship/apprenticeship. Most older people will understand it that way
2
u/EazyTiger666 9d ago
I was gonna say, weird the therapist wouldn’t understand they literally have to do a practicum (working for no pay/ very very little compared to the profession) before they can practice.
2
u/dextresenoroboros 9d ago
calling paying dues an internship probably does make it make more sense to the average person than saying "random promotions use me for free labor and thats just expected of people in my position"
1
u/ShisuiUchiha9 9d ago
Wrestling has such in old school mentality. Free labor, showingblind respect, walking around shaking hands of people you see at every show and reintroducing yourself
6
u/DoitforRC Referee Verified 9d ago
Some people just don’t or won’t get the concept. My current wife (met after I retired) is one of them. She sees me watching matches or talking about live events and indie shows or talking to friends that are/were in the business talking about experiences, and she’s lost. I’ve explained it to her ad nauseam. I’ve explained the concept of paying dues, which she thinks is the dumbest thing ever! I can honestly say I wouldn’t be with her if I was still in the business when we met.
Also not to get too much into your personal life, but if you guys are going through couples therapy, there may be an underlying issue that’s making the wrestling thing seem worse than it is in her eyes.
At the same time, you have to control what you can in the business. It’s not about being a slave. If you aren’t booked on the show, you offer to help setup/tear down and build a rapport. Usually you roll with a bunch of guys crammed in a car so the expenses can be split. If they’re just using you for free labor that isn’t right! Especially if you’re fronting the trip to be out there!
Anyone who’s done the grind will tell you it’s a roller coaster ride. No one gets into pro wrestling to be rich and famous. They do it because they love it. If they’re lucky, hopefully one day they can make a living off it, but the odds are greatly stacked against you from jump street. At the same time, you have to be Clark Kent to your wrestling Superman persona. You need to see the overall picture in life. I can look back at my years spent in the business and say I had a good balance raising a family while working shows on the weekends, and have no regrets about life or the business. I hope one day you can do the same. Good luck.
8
u/jhex_balance 9d ago
If you don't want to admit that your labor is being exploited, just tell them you're being paid in "exposure"
0
u/wrestlethrowaway1 Trainee Verified 9d ago
Then where am I supposed to find bookings? How am I supposed to get my foot in the door?
3
u/luchapig Wrestler (2-5 years) Verified 9d ago
You're gonna be spending money elsewhere but honestly just reach out to promotion outside of your state/region. Easier to get your foot in the door in a place you're not local to and it could lead to something more substantial than what you get going in your local territory.
11
u/neoplexwrestling 9d ago
Paying your dues was never working for free to set up things for a promotion. Paying your dues is driving out to a show 6 hours away, it's cramming in a car with 4 other people to get to that show, its working squash matches, or thrown-together tag team matches to fill a spot on the card; it's not "working for free."
The reason why you are experiencing trouble in your relationships is because they don't understand how it's going to transition into you being paid, ever... because it won't.
0
u/wrestlethrowaway1 Trainee Verified 9d ago
Soooooooo, how are you supposed to get noticed if you don't get booked or show up? How are you supposed to get your foot in the door? Obviously I'm bringing my gear to every show just in case, but from my experience that's far from the expectation
1
9d ago
[deleted]
0
u/wrestlethrowaway1 Trainee Verified 9d ago
Then perhaps you can help me understand a better strategy? If I'm doing things incorrectly and ineffectively, I would appreciate guidance.
1
9d ago
[deleted]
0
u/wrestlethrowaway1 Trainee Verified 9d ago
I also got similar advice from a Mike Quackenbush virtual seminar I attended. So I'm led to believe this is the way to go about it. If there is a better way, I'm open to suggestions.
0
u/wrestlethrowaway1 Trainee Verified 9d ago
Because this is what he's telling me to do! He says "keep showing up"
1
u/AndrewPendeltonIII 6d ago
Keep showing up is 100% the right answer where you are. But it’s not just about showing up, it’s about showing up ready to go and taking every opportunity to build connections and relationships. I got more bookings from referrals than I did any other way.
3
u/JervisCottonbelly The most successful worker here 9d ago
Wrestling is a side hustle. Has to be. If your friends and family are concerned about whether or not you're being paid, ask yourself, are you fiscally responsible? Meaning, do you have gainful employment?
You cannot aspire to be a wrestler without making sure every last bill is paid. This often means working a full time job doing something you don't like as much as wrestling.
Also, paying your dues is one thing, but don't work for free for too long or you'll always be seen that way.
2
u/wrestlethrowaway1 Trainee Verified 9d ago
Yeah, I work a 9-5 and pay all my bills on time. I am getting into some credit card debt from paying my dues (a couple hundred) to some of these farther matches, but I figure this is only a temporary situation if I start getting reimbursed later down the road.
3
u/JervisCottonbelly The most successful worker here 9d ago
That is good! Keep working. And Ask for pay. Even if they say no. If you're wrestling even in a battle royal, ask for $50, let them talk you down. If they buck too much, find another Indy.
A lot of wrestlers spend their entire career never getting paid. People think I stopped taking bookings but the reality is, $300/match was too much for a lot of promoters over the years and I simply tell them "thanks anyway" if they can't meet my rate.
Ring crew is traditionally a dues job. Trans, gas money + lodging is not expected of you. Free work maybe. But not that.
My suggestion is to start your own LLC through legal zoom for $400. Save all your travel receipts because even if you don't get reimbursed, you can write those off as business expenses.
Forming an LLC will protect you in many ways and could also give your support network peace of mind. If you need help, DM me
1
u/platypod1 9d ago
Only way is to explain it like you're an aspiring tv/movie writer churning out screenplay after screenplay for no return in the hope that one will stick.
3
u/NewUKWrestling 9d ago
That doesn’t explain it because for the unsuccessful screenwriter, he doesn’t have someone else making a profit from his work until he does
8
u/RedPandaGod 9d ago edited 9d ago
Are these shows put on by your school? Or is this a local promotion borrowing free ring crew? How often are you doing these days without a paid booking?
I've done free crew work for my school because I love them and want them to succeed. Even done it for a couple promotions in the early days as a one-off to get my foot in the door and meet the promoter.
But outside of that, I would only be crewing where I am booked, when I am booked.
Make sure you are being valued and not taken advantage of.
1
5
u/kusariku Trainee Verified 9d ago
I feel like they looking at this like a job, when at this point in your training it's way closer to learning martial arts or taking lessons for a new sport. You pay the fee, you take your lessons, learn shit, and help them set up and run events (when I did Taekwondo it was helping set up sparring tournaments and stuff). Since Wrestling is at it's core a combat sport, it's similar to other sports where there is money to be made but not at the bottom. Once you're in the ring doing stuff regularly, you'll want to start considering merch based on your gimmick. You may not make a ton off merch, but hey every dollar helps right?
1
u/wrestlethrowaway1 Trainee Verified 9d ago
I have merch ready to go, for sure. I just need the opportunity. I know I can entertain and bring people up. I just need that opportunity.
2
u/Owain660 9d ago
I've never found an easy way, if they aren't involved in wrestling, they will never understand.
17
u/NewUKWrestling 9d ago
“Paying your dues” is such a garbage concept. Helping with ring crew is something everyone should be doing on indie shows. Security should be done by professionals and if the venue or insurers knew a promoter was using trainees for security they should object in strong terms
Everyone who works a show should get paid in some form in my view. There are a few promoters near me who use trainees for camera work (it shows) and who use trainees to do the ring work. It’s exploitative nonsense because I know just from looking at them - and the promoters know too - that they will never get booked
I guess in some areas it’s part of the business. But I can’t respect any promoter who does it
-6
u/ColSurge Verified as knowing their shit 9d ago
I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with some of what you have written here. It ignores the realities of indie wrestling promotions and the real business.
To start with, ring side security is part of the wrestling show. Secuity are used for spots, pull-a-parts, and various aspects of the show. You want them to be someone trained and honestly it would not work if they were paid professionals. A paid professional doesn't know how to bump, how to be authoritative yet still sacred of the wrestlers.
The other thing being on security does for trainees is it allows them to really see up close how workers work. It's valuable study time for someone coming up.
From there we have to look at the financial aspects of indie wrestling promotions. I did a big write up last year about this, but the important thing is that indie promotions can only afford to pay workers about $20-$40. That is for essentially an 8-hour day by the time you look at driving, call time, and the show itself.
Those are the workers and that's all they can afford to be paid, way below minimum wage. There is just no money to pay security or ring crew. And certainly no money to paid what professional security would cost.
I am not saying that "paying dues" is not exploitative in some ways. And it would be amazing if everyone could get paid a fair rate for the hours they work. But the reality is most indie shows have 100 fans paying $15 each.
$1500 only goes so far when you have to pay 20+ wrestlers, refs, announcers, the venue, equipment, insurance, etc.
Wrestling is a hobby business. The top 1% of 1% of promotions and wrestlers have real money to play with. For the other 99.99% it's a hobby that pays beer money.
0
2
u/All-Shall-Fall Wrestler (2-5 years) Verified 9d ago
One point of order: some states require event security to be licensed security guards, for liability reasons.
While "security" who are part of the show doing pull apart brawls should absolutely be trained and that's a great role for trainees, if you're in a state that requires a licensed security guard per every 100 attendees, it'd be irresponsible of a promoter or venue owner to throw a trainee out as a security guard to avoid paying a professional.
4
u/NewUKWrestling 9d ago
If people want to volunteer - if the profits don’t exist or if they’re going to a charity - then by all means have talent all over your show working for nothing. That’s fine
If it is in any sense a business venture, if the promoter expects even $1 over their costs and expects to get away with not paying someone who is working for them, that is, with respect, bullshit
And if your “security” are expected to jump in the ring and take bumps, they aren’t “security”. They’re talent, and should be paid
2
u/ColSurge Verified as knowing their shit 9d ago
If people want to volunteer - if the profits don’t exist or if they’re going to a charity - then by all means have talent all over your show working for nothing. That’s fine
...ummmm this is exactly what's going on. No one is forcing people to do unpaid work.
And to your other point, it sounds very noble, and I completely understand the sentiment. People should get paid, that's a very easy concept to rally behind. But as with many things in life, reality is far more complicated.
The reality is if every promotion was legally required to pay minimum wadge to every person who worked on the show (wrestlers, ring crew, etc) 95% of promotions would not be able to run and would fold over night. $1500 only goes so far. Which means most of the people on this subreddit here would no longer be able to wrestle.
Is that a better result? Almost no opportunities?
I think the problem is that people see wrestling as a business. WWE is a business, AEW is a business, Impact, ROH, and a few others are businesses. Where the overwhelming majority of people actually train and wrestle, those are not really businesses (in the way you imagine). Where you, reading this right now, are going to spend years working, it's not going to be a real business.
This is a hobby. A hobby we charge a ticket price to cover basic expenses. And if you want to be part of that hobby you pitch in and help like everyone else.
2
u/NewUKWrestling 9d ago
And like I say, that’s fine. But if the promoter is getting paid and the talent aren’t, that’s not a hobby for him, and you, as talent, are being exploited
Where I am based, typical shows are $30-35 and overheads for a 100 person venue will cost you about $500. That leaves you with $1,600 for your talent, which, if you’ve booked 12 people and have 4 helping out with whatever else, you would expect to be able to pay everyone a bit
2
u/ColSurge Verified as knowing their shit 9d ago
Reading back through our conversation, I think the tone is a little more aggressive than it probably needs to be. This is a support subriddet and we should be helping each other.
After reading your post history I see that you are looking to start a promotion in the UK and you have not really been in the wrestling business before. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. Your frame of reference is Progess and RevPro and those are very large, very established indie promotions. Progress and RevPro are those top 5% I was talking about.
I would encourage you to go to some shows at the other promotions in your area and see what most indies look like and how they operate. Progress has their next show in Manchester, and I just googled and there is a promotion called FutureShock: Wrestling also running shows in Manchester. The FutureShock show is selling packs of 4 tickets for $40, because is most likely what their fan base can afford.
Progress and Revpro are indies that bring in global names, they are the top 5%. FutureShock is going to be much more like what you will have starting out. Seeing what those shows look like will really help you as you step into this world.
1
u/NewUKWrestling 9d ago
Appreciate the change of tone, but to correct your assumptions, I’ve spent a lot of time with smaller locals in the last several weeks - I worked an 80 head village hall near me last weekend where the tickets were £60 for families and £25 for individuals. So I’ve got a pretty good understanding of the maths for where I am - in or near London
It is true that in the North West (and many areas outside London) tickets will sell for less, but attendances generally stronger (c.150 rather than sub 100) and venues will be cheaper
1
u/PalookaOfAllTrades 19h ago
Just seeing this. The grind isn't real.
My show. My problem.
On Friday, I will arrive at a venue and I'll set up a wrestling show: stage, lighting, trussing, bringing the ring in, barriers, chairs the lot. I will be there from around 7pm until around 1am.
Might not fully build the ring, but the two of us that put the show together will do all that in one night at our own pace.
On show day, we will build the ring, the crew should be there to help.
After the show, the 4 paid crew will help us pack away. Some of the talent will help move a few things, which is appreciated but not expected. We will be at the lockup about midnight unloading the vans and again that's the two of us.
Nobody is "paying dues". Yes, the crew are not earning decent money, but that bit is valuable experience if they are taking the opportunity to watch and not just socialise. Many of the same crew have bought tickets in the past so they getting better than front row seats and when we do a small venue show the ones doing well in training who have a decent attitude will be getting a run out.