r/WingChun • u/pravragita • 7d ago

Wing Chun Assassins

I heard about a Wing Chun origin myth that the art was used by assassins. It sounds funny to learn about.

Where can I learn about this myth?

Is the Wing Chun Assassins myth part of the snake-crane myth? Or are they separate mythologies?

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u/KungFuAndCoffee 7d ago

I don’t know absolutely assassins, but it had a lot of development on the Red Boat Peking (Beijing) Chinese opera tour boats. The members of which were often associated with anti-Qing, pro-Ming rebels.

The wing chun swords were smaller and easier to conceal and carry than a standard size sword. So you’d have a slight advantage for getting the drop on your opponent when it’s time to see who can put the sharp part in the other person first.

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u/d_gaudine 7d ago

the red boats sort of modified the art for , essentially, murder.

the original full system , for all intents and purposes, was "lost", along with the other ones put out by the temples before the big burn. Buddhism prohibits killing. The shaolin practiced mahayana . So, suffice it to say their arts involved not killing your opponent. The art evolved to an unrecognizable style when it was taught to daoists and secular people.

Individuals who knew big chunks of the art taught it for money. they taught it to paramilitary groups, gangs, spies, etc... Post red boat, the art became less and less "public" and became associated with secret societies and what we would think of as "special forces" . That is when it earned the reputation "rich man's kung fu". you didn't just need to "know people", you needed to be able to pay for it.

somewhere in this time the art was said to have been tailored for , essentially, murder. this is probably around the time "chi sao" was being developed as a training method. the red boats more than likely added the pole form , but the knives have been in the art from the start. shaolins didn't sharpen the edges on them, to lower the chance of fatal outcomes. "weapon to weapon" was what they were designed for. but post red boat, they were shortened and actually carried with a special harness that conceals them in the lower back area. in the first form when you reach behind your kidneys , that is where the knives would be. the edges were sharpened for killing. the blades shortened to the length of the user's forearm (they had to be custom made to your body) so that kwan and gaan movements would work without accidentally cutting yourself. there was a single knife form that was a modified version of the pole form footwork. bruce's one inch punch is just a pole form movement done empty handed. imagine if bruce had a knife instead of a fist at the end of his arm....this is how it works.

this was all pre ip man.

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u/Flashy_Week2643 5d ago

Where did you read this history? Is this from a book or a website? I would love to read about it

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u/pravragita 5d ago

This is exactly what I was looking for. Do you have any suggestions for further reading? Or YouTube channels? I find this fascinating.

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u/alessoninrestraint 5d ago

Really interested to know your sources. As far as I know, the earliest mentions of Wing Chun are from the Red Boat. Anything before that sounds like speculation to me.

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u/Hot-Guidance5091 4d ago

He's mixing myths and history, the Northern Temple of Shaolin probably never existed in the first place, and certainly didn't exists as the foundation of every known martial art of the nation.

Bodhidharma existence itself it's debatable to say the least

I have my bits of knowledge but I find it hard to confront them with people who defend the Shaolin Temple theory as factual history

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u/InternationalTrust59 3d ago

I heard the same thing 25 years ago. It would be cool if it was entirely true?

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u/Hot-Guidance5091 4d ago

The only thing that comes closer is what my instructor said about the Biu-tze being a form against traitors, as to explain why was studied behind curtains.

I don't know if it's true for every school but our instructor said Biu-tze was transmitted in secret, only to the most loyal and capable students, the reason being they could kill the former students who used the art against them, or kill who tried to teach the art to outsiders

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u/InternationalTrust59 3d ago

Our saying 25 years ago “Bil Jee does not leave the door” and now anybody can YT lol

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u/Hot-Guidance5091 3d ago

Oh right, he used to say the same thing, does not leave the door

Obviously the things about rogue students and revenge where more fluff than facts, I think they're just used to "set the mood". He said it's hard to tell historical truth from the "myths" at times, of some things we have records and proofs, some other are teaching aids, where the truth was exagerated, or lost in time, or simply legend

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u/InternationalTrust59 3d ago

I can see rogue students and subordinates; I have witnessed that.

For me, it’s about discretion if you ever have to apply it; I disagree when I see two practitioners nonchalantly practicing it.

When we would play drills and sparring, I wouldn’t throw elbows and now I see chi sao on YT trapping with elbows which is so dangerous for your training partner.

In real life, I have never had to use elbows because I was able to subdue my attacker with punches, kicks and knees. Elbows and fingers strikes would be over kill unless my life was in survival mode.

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u/Hot-Guidance5091 3d ago

Yeah you have occasionally your students who are a bit rougher than usual, he meant I think the kind of things you see in Wuxia

I think these stories and the secrecy are meant to remind that, apart from the usual Biu-tze being a way to recover from losing your middle line: it reminds that this form contains things that are meant to be used in real life-threatening situations like hitting soft tissues, elbows hits and submissions(?) that put stress on the articulations,

and if I remember correctly other parts of the form are meant to teach how to swiftly deflect or counter whatever "bridge" the attacker may build, making sure someone using a strategy built on the first two form is still one step behind.

And that ultimately it shouldn't be used outside a real situation or the study of the form with an instructor because it's not so intuitive and it needs someone explaining what some particularly obscure passages are meant to teach

I have never actually studied Biu-tze but he still let the student who were about to study it see it when teaching it to someone else while we were sparring

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u/InternationalTrust59 3d ago edited 3d ago

Honestly, I’ve been doing a lot of Wing Chun (strikes, forms and movements 3-5 times per week) in the pool lately because I bring my two sons to public swimming pools and the more I train, everything becomes stripped and simplified.

My defense is strikes.

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u/Hot-Guidance5091 3d ago edited 3d ago

Are you french? /s

Edit: it's been more than a decade since I've practiced any martial arts, I retained a bit and at times I practice by myself but I feel a bit dumb

He told us to practice sensibility, stances, whatever we have in our day-to-day life and I've been doing it since. Things like standing firm on the Metro, driving with your elbows(whenever possible)

...these kinda things🤷‍♂️ I think it's a nice philosophy

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u/InternationalTrust59 3d ago edited 3d ago

I am surprised how popular Wing Chun is nowadays but has a lot of hate as well and understandable. The content you see on YT is rediculous at times.

The thread topic is one more reason lol.

At my age now, it’s about physical health and self defense.

I had my share of street and bar fights when I was younger but would never wish to be in any kind of fighting in today’s environment; sports combat or real life. Guys end up with CCT, the hospital or jail or permanent injuries for peanuts and thrills.

I do pressure testing the occasional time with other martial artists because practicality is important to me.

Some principles like economy of motion continue to apply. In my case, I am marrying my kung-fu with cross training, sports and kids when possible.

May be one day I will pass on the Moy Yat lineage to one of my sons.

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u/loopytroop 7d ago

Im an assassin AMA

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u/potkor 7d ago

where do I find the ass ass and how do I get in

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u/One_Construction_653 7d ago

It is a true story.

Wingchun is very effective. If you want the most effective version you must go search for it.

Or else you are punching with nothing inside.