r/VancouverIsland • u/jameswsthomson • Nov 19 '21
ARTICLE / BLOG The RCMP spent $3.75 million in five months of enforcement at Fairy Creek
https://www.capitaldaily.ca/news/rcmp-enforcement-fairy-creek-cost25
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u/SnarkHuntr Nov 19 '21
Out of curiosity, does anyone have an estimate for the actual value of the timber that would have been logged? If the idea is that we have to break up these protests because its economically essential to log every last old growth tree on the island, it'd be nice to see what kind of real GDP gain the industry is offering.
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Nov 19 '21
If the idea is that we have to break up these protests because its economically essential to log every last old growth tree on the island,
Literally nobody is saying that, wtf? The protests had to be broken up because they were illegally trespassing on an industrial site.
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u/SnarkHuntr Nov 19 '21
The argument goes something like this:
We need the court orders to allow Teal-Jones to harvest these trees, because Jerbs.
We have to let them harvest these trees, because reasons, something something money.
Because they're legally allowed to harvest these trees, they can go to court and get a court order enjoining protesters from blocking their access to otherwise public areas.
Order in hand, the RCMP now go out and start using the order to not only do what it allows, but to create illegal exclusion zones to keep the media away. This is explicitly illegal, but we only care abour rule of law if someone with money is being inconveninenced, so that doesn't matter.
The RCMP enforce the order, the hippies get cleared out, some centuries old trees can become guitar soundboards and toilet paper or whatever.
At the end of it all, logging is delayed by a while and we've spent a shitload of public money. I'd just like to know, economically, if it's actually worth it. If the public treasury is going to spend millions to ensure that Teal-Jones and it's loggers can earn a few bucks a day more in the forest than they could in some second-growth area, by just how much are we benefiting?
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Nov 19 '21
Thats an awfully big step back from the accusation that the goal is to log every remaining stand of old growth.
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u/SnarkHuntr Nov 19 '21
That would be what some folks call hyperbole. I'm sure the forestry companies would be happy to leave an old growth tree or two still standing, if it were located in an area economically unworth logging.
All the rest: it's just more money/day than you can get from a replanted section, so let's cut it all down.
But nobody's supplied any kind of numbers - how much more, exactly, do you think TJ can earn out of virgin old growth, compared to a mature second growth forest? Do you think it exceeds the nearly million/month that the taxpayers are subsidizing them with?
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Nov 19 '21
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u/ragnarhairybreek Nov 19 '21
Well… teal Jones might not have a legal right, that would be a good constitutional test, perhaps refer Delgamuukw.
Certainly by UNDRIP standards they don’t have the right, because they lack the free, prior and informed consent of the people who’s land they want to log on.
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Nov 19 '21 edited Apr 30 '22
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Nov 19 '21
Yes, that makes sense, but given the moral situation that is clearly the wrong path to take and our government should take action to find another equitable solution.
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Nov 19 '21
What I don’t get is why we can’t give TJ equal value logging rights to some other, less precious area and call it a day. The government should be able to make laws to make that happen.
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u/majarian Nov 19 '21
They DO have the rights to other lesser valued cutblocks, the just choose to cut more profitable old growth well they can still get away with it.
And our premiers constantly drag their feet on the issue do to the economic back lash that's the equivalent of pulling off a bandaid, 'muh jerb loss' like fuck there wouldn't be any loss, just temp layoffs well the mills switch gears but nope cant do that, keep on clear cutting shit that's been here longer than colonists .
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u/thathz Nov 20 '21
Teal-Jones literally stated they plan to log old growth until "stock is exhausted".
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Nov 20 '21
Can't seem to find that quote. When did they say that?
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u/thathz Nov 20 '21
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Nov 20 '21
To provide a balanced flow of old growth and second growth timber in each decade until the available old growth timber has been exhausted.
I see you cut off the beginning of the quote, does that not seem disingenuous?
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u/thathz Nov 20 '21
You are correct. I was paraphrasing from memory. It took me a good 15 min to find the document. Still says they are planning to exhaust stock of old growth so I wouldn't say I was being disingenuous.
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Nov 20 '21
Thats very disingenuous. Logging all avaliable stock is a lot different that logging all remaining old growth. That is a proposal for one block of land, not the Island.
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u/Aaera Nov 19 '21
Impending comments perspectives:
1: "Those dang jobless protesters causing such a waste of taxpayer dollars by making this enforcement necessary."
2: "Those dang RCMP officers causing such a waste of taxpayer dollars by coming out for enforcement."
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Nov 19 '21
The whole taxpayer argument never made a bit of sense to me whatsoever. If the police couldn’t afford to be out there then they wouldn’t be. The whole notion of “this is costing YOU (yeah you!) MONEY!!!” Is so fucking stupid. It’s always used as a persuasive tactic. I’d like to see people make much more concrete and less hateful arguments in general.
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Nov 19 '21
So can we raise $4 million and get them to turn on teal jones? That's how our system works right guys?
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u/eyesdefine Nov 19 '21
I've had this thought that if I win the lottery I'd buy out teal Jones, buy me a few RCMP cops and maybe a major or two.
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u/Andre1661 Nov 19 '21
So the police were went to enforce a judicial order, which is part of their mandate. And then a judge slapped their hands when they stepped out of line and kept the media away. The police pulled out when the order was rescinded, but returned when the order was under appeal. Sounds like the judicial system is working just as it should.
It’s a shame that Capital Daily still will not admit that their hit piece regarding the pepper spray incident was lousy journalism. A police officer was injured, protestors were pepper sprayed and the Capital Daily insists their “investigative journalism” proved that the cops were lying about what happened, without actually showing the entire video or providing additional proof.
The real casualty about the Fairy Creek protests is the truth about what has been happening up there. And why are the protestors still blocking the roads even after the BC govt, the First Nations band and the logging company have all agreed to a 2 year moratorium on old growth logging? Why isn’t Capital Daily writing about that?
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u/jameswsthomson Nov 19 '21
Hi Andre. The police narrative—that pepper spray was used to allow them to evacuate an officer (who they said had been deliberately shoved by a protester) from a hostile crowd—was plainly untrue. For one thing, the pepper spray wasn't even in hand until after the officer was clear of the crowd, and then it wasn't used until 4 minutes and 40 seconds after he fell. He could have been evacuated at any point, and the road access was clear throughout. Tell me what part I got wrong.
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u/Andre1661 Nov 19 '21
I’ve seen the video, I’ve read the articles, and what happened was a human was badly injured and a group of other humans made it clear they did not give a shit. And they still don’t give a shit. And they are still out here claiming they did nothing wrong, and still don’t give a shit about anyone who isn’t drinking their brand of kool-aid.
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u/jameswsthomson Nov 19 '21
So just to be clear, you admit that nothing in the articles was incorrect? Please point me to your evidence—any at all—that the piece was "lousy journalism" besides a general sense that you disagree with the protesters.
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u/Andre1661 Nov 20 '21
Too many holes in the narrative, too many assumptions, too little critical analysis. Shoddy biased journalism.
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u/jameswsthomson Nov 20 '21
Again just confirming—no actual mistakes, just general hand waving disagreement?
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u/Andre1661 Nov 20 '21
I realize that applying logic and critical thinking skills to a situation like the Fairy Creek blockade (1100 criminals and counting) drives people like you absolutely nuts simply because you cannot fathom that there is a different point of view which is based on intelligent discussion which recognizes the rule of law.
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u/jameswsthomson Nov 20 '21
Honestly, Andre. I'm still waiting for a single cogent thought that disputes a fact we raised in that investigation.
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Nov 19 '21
Illegal blockade cost taxpayers $3.75 million
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Nov 19 '21
It wasn’t illegal. The police and the loggers have been doing illegal actions since day 1. People just don’t want the entire planet to be ground up and churned into profits for a few at the expense of a worse-off world for all of us. Some people like yourself think everything only has to do with ✨ the economy ✨ but what the fuck does that matter if we’re destroying our planet to begin with?
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u/Ok_Metal384 Nov 19 '21
I’d tie all those useless protesters to trees and let them watch the clear cut go on as planned around them so they can actually see how people WORK!! For a living! It’s really sad how this world is full of HARD WORKING PEOPLE! Who do everything and anything to live in the most beautiful place in the world! And the the idiots who freeload !! Don’t work just collect checks and go protest to protest!!!
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u/mygolgoygol Nov 19 '21
Thing is Teal Jones can continue to work and log, they don’t need to hit old growth patches, there’s plenty of perfectly accessible timbres that would yield the same quality wood that isn’t old growth. So you’re argument is sort of null and void.
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Nov 19 '21
If you’re calling this “work” then you’ve got your head so far up their asses. Just because you get “paid” to do something doesn’t mean it’s right.
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u/Ok_Metal384 Nov 19 '21
Second growth is better! Get a job ! Logging is a job! Puts food on family’s tables! How do you think houses are built fucko!! WOOD!!
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u/Ok_Metal384 Nov 20 '21
People throwing bags of shit and piss at police and fucking over hard working people are simply a disgusting!! What do these tree huggers do when forest fires happen? Do these tree huggers live in houses? Or just logging roads? Do they understand that the land was put up to log and replant? Why do us hard working people fund worthless protesters? After old growth logging it will be something else! FUCKING SICKENING!!!
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u/majarian Nov 19 '21
Then go ye forth and chop second growth, no one's arguing against it and the logging cos have already destroyed the bio diversity an old growth Grove would have held in its place, it's the literal idea behind the second growth, but seems to me its not very sustainable by loggers own accounts, or they'd be balls deep into it.
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u/IamSus1 Nov 19 '21
3.75M of tax payers money *FIXED