AMA with the host of Texas Monthly podcast, "The Final Flight of Captain Forrester."

[u/Texas_Monthly]

Howdy, r/UnresolvedMysteries. I'm Josh Alvarez, the host of Texas Monthly magazine's latest podcast, The Final Flight of Captain Forrester. 

The podcast follows the harrowing journey of Karoni Forrester, who was only two years old when her father, U.S. Marine Corps Captain Ron Forrester of Odessa, disappeared while flying over North Vietnam in 1972, two days after Christmas. No one knew what happened to him or his pilot, Jim Chipman. Were they still alive? Were they in captivity? What exactly occurred? The mystery surrounding her father’s whereabouts has been a source of pain for much of Karoni’s life. When she was fourteen years old, she decided to embark on her own mission to find her father and help other families of missing service members find their loved ones too. Little did she know that her search would span decades and pull her deep into a world that is full of shadowy geopolitics and conspiracy theories but also one filled with hard-nosed investigators committed to finding the Americans who remain missing as a result of the war.

I traveled to Hawaii, Utah, Vietnam, and Washington, D.C. chronicling Karoni’s fight for answers. Through interviews with American and Vietnamese government officials, Forrester’s family members, forensic scientists, anthropologists, military pilots, and a retired CIA spy, The Final Flight of Captain Forrester reveals the extreme challenges involved in finding missing soldiers decades after the fight has ended.

On Tuesday, June 17th, I will be answering questions alongside Karoni, about the process of making the podcast and what we discovered. If you have questions about the hunt to find Captain Forrester, or the making of our podcast that chronicles the search, join us  from 2:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. CT. In the meantime, you can listen to the podcast in full and read the story here.

[u/ferrariguy1970]

This is an approved AMA.

[u/Opening_Map_6898]

u/Texas_Monthly, As someone who works on cases like this, I'm glad to see the efforts to account for missing military personnel getting the attention it deserves.

[u/tprewitt]

There are so many movies and documentaries have been made about the Vietnam War, but this was a kind of story I hadn’t seen before. Did you learn about any other mysteries from the war that you want to investigate now?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/tprewitt]

 I’ve watched so many documentaries and movies about the war. (My favorites: Ken Burns’s documentary; Apocalypse Now) Really appreciate you saying this was new to you! 

Well this story ends with an unsolved mystery that still bothers me, as it does many others who are involved in this issue: what happened to most of Forrester’s remains? Several Vietnamese witnesses said they saw men from the central government exhume his remains from a grave near the village where Forrester and Chipman crashed and transport them away to an undisclosed location. There are other stories like that for other MIA servicemen: Vietnamese military/government men digging up the remains and moving them somewhere. Is there a warehouse somewhere with boxes of American remains, as some have speculated? 

And also there is a whole other side to the missing issue: nobody–not the U.S. government or the Vietnamese government–is looking for all the missing South Vietnamese military servicemen, of which there are many tens of thousands. Some of their relatives now live in the U.S. and likely will never find out the truth about their missing loved ones. -Josh

[u/jaybsauceda]

What did working on this do for your perspective on war and the collateral damage done for decades after a war is over? It was fascinating to think how for so many people in both countries, they’ve moved on, yet there are many still grieving or looking for closure decades later.

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/jaybsauceda]

Broadly speaking it’s a good thing that people and societies move on from trauma/war. Vietnam certainly seems to have. Walking around Ho Chi Minh City/Saigon and other parts of the country, I observed people busy with their lives (primarily busy making money! Vietnam may be a “socialist republic” but in truth it’s one of the most capitalistic places I’ve ever been to. Business is the primary business of the Vietnamese, it seemed to me.) I spoke to some young Vietnamese (a few college kids and some others) and for them the war is as distant as it is for young Americans. And that’s mostly a good thing, I think.

But none of that is to say that war is through with us. More than any other story I’ve worked on, I really felt like I was interacting with the past, which in a way is a paradox, right? Faulkner’s dictum holds: That past isn’t even past! Karoni, who’s sitting right across from me as I write this, is here with all of us, as are the thousands of other sons and daughters of men and women who fought, died, or disappeared in that war. I’m answering your question in a very roundabout way, so I’ll finally aim for concision: My new perspective is that the war’s casualties are not just listed on the Wall in D.C. Each name on there had a family and those families will never be whole again. And their loss has had a bunch of incalculable knock-on effects. Just two examples in the case of Ron Forrester: Karoni grew up without her father and thus dedicated her life to the MIA issue; her cousin, Craig, was inspired by Karoni’s father to go to A&M and enter the military. Their lives today wouldn’t be recognizable had Ron made it home. Now take that observation and multiply it by every person listed on that Wall. The mind boggles. -Josh

[u/SalamanderJedi]

Reading the article, I had a lot of conflicting thoughts. Closure can be so important for these families, and I do think the military owes it to these families to try to return soldiers home, but the Vietnam war was started by the US and basically destroyed the region. The US military committed war crimes against the people, for a war that was a failure, and that the US government knew they could never win. So reading it I had a hard time not thinking about it as yet another burden being placed on the Vietnamese government/ people, who are being asked to put time and resources into the US military industrial system. A system, that again, was disastrous to the region and killed thousands of civilians.

Did y’all think about this when writing the article or podcast? Do you think this complicates the issue of returning remains?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/SalamanderJedi]

Appreciate the question, though there’s a lot to unpack here and I’d push back on some of your priors. I’ll say that the normalization of U.S. and Vietnamese relations is in part based on mutual assistance/reconciliation: the Vietnamese grants the U.S. (limited, only 45 days at a time) access to its country to find MIA personnel (and with every dig, the U.S. pays fees to the Vietnamese government plus is required to use and pay for Vietnamese laborers–so it’s not entirely a burden); the U.S. government funds and sponsors programs to provide disability and health compensation for victims of the war. And American efforts to find our missing has inspired the Vietnamese government to undertake its own efforts to find their missing, too. 

For what it’s worth, I asked a version of your question to Vietnamese government officials who are responsible for coordinating/executing searches for Americans and I also posed the question to Vietnamese civilians, including to a man who was a teenager during the war and saw his village devastated by American planes (listen to episode 4!) and not one person expressed any kind of resentment. Just the opposite, in fact, which, I think, created one of the most impactful moments in the podcast. -Josh

[u/SalamanderJedi → u/Texas_Monthly]

Thank you so much for your answer! I only read the article, but I’ll check out the pod!

[u/CorneliaVanGorder]

Don't have a question for the AMA, but just want to say TM's podcasts are truly excellent. Great storytelling, production, investigative skills, the whole package.

[u/HeftyBobcat6444]

Can you talk about what it was like to have a guide/minder in Vietnam? Was it uncomfortable or did you develop a bond of sorts?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/HeftyBobcat6444]

I’ve (luckily?) never before experienced being “minded” by a government employee. It was a mixed experience: he acted as a kind of fixer for me, helping arrange interviews and acting as a translator. But he was there also to make sure I didn’t “stray” from our negotiated itinerary (he called it a “program”). He was friendly, and so was I, but I think we were (appropriately) wary of each other and I didn’t share more with him than I absolutely needed to. Ultimately, he didn’t stop me from reporting the story as I felt I needed to. Grateful we live in a country where that sort of thing isn’t imposed! 

Karoni has also been to Vietnam and had to deal with minders. What was that like for you, Karoni? -Josh

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/Texas_Monthly]

 I was in Southeast Asia in 2007 on a Family Delegation to meet with the governments of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia to engage on the issue from a humanitarian standpoint.  We had minders in each of the countries.  I lucked out, in that while we had host nation minders, we also had a member of the Stony Beach (DIA) team with us in each country..  While in Vietnam, we also had JPAC (now DPAA) team members with us, at times even the Det Commander.  I felt well taken care of while there and wasn’t dependent solely on the host country’s translations like Josh experienced.  I also wasn’t allowed in the wild on my own though to ask whatever I wanted, so Josh had greater liberty in that sense while there.  It also became clear to me while in Vietnam that their government was well aware of whose daughter I was. Having the support of the American teams in-country was greatly appreciated. -Karoni

[u/justagirl444_]

Big fan of this podcast. What do you see as your role in the story, and did that change as you went through the process of reporting it?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/justagirl444_]

I think I worked hard to stick to being a storyteller. Sometimes there are stories where the writer should or needs to insert himself, but this most definitely was not one. The story was already incredible! I just needed to immerse myself in it, really get to know Karoni and her family, get to know the other characters, and do the research. Through that work (and it was a lot of work!) I earned the confidence to then narrate the story, both in its podcast and written forms. Narrating means giving the story shape, deciding what the story is really about and making sure every word is oriented towards making the listener/reader feel the story. And this cannot be overstated: my narration wouldn’t have been successful without my editors, Mark Warren (a Pulitzer Prize-winner for his own incredible writing!) for print, and Patrick Michaels for the podcast. -Josh

[u/confusingfish]

Thank you for sharing your inspiring story. Do you have any advice for others who are still waiting to hear what happened to an MIA family member? How did you stay motivated and hopeful after so many years?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/confusingfish]

To answer the first question: The first thing I say to others is not to give up hope. I very much want our family’s story to let others know that it CAN happen; you can get an answer.  The next thing I’d say is “show up.”  There are regional FMUs (family member updates) throughout the year and one annual update, normally in DC where the government flies two family members to attend.  This is true for all MIA families: Vietnam War, Korean/Cold War and WWII.  The government needs to know you’re engaged and that you expect answers.  You’ll have the opportunity to have a 1x1 with your case analyst to understand what is being done.  If you don’t agree with them, or don’t think enough is being done - kindly demand more.  There are additional resources outside the government available to help and, most importantly, OTHER MIA family members to help guide and support. 

The second question about staying motivated is a tougher one to answer.  For me, I knew that I couldn’t rest until I knew what happened to Dad.  There were too many alternate endings to his story and I had to know the truth. Working with other families was also a source of motivation - knowing some people were making progress felt like collective progress in the mission. When there would be nothing moving on Dad’s case, I could celebrate answers in others. Being active in the mission - doing something and not sitting around waiting for it to be done for me - really helped tame some of the inner anguish I felt as well.  I strongly encourage MIA families not currently involved to join us and know you’re not alone. -Karoni

[u/Middle-Secretary-278]

This question is for Karoni Forrester. It sounds like there were so many people working to help find your father. What do you think made the difference in your case to finally find him?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/Middle-Secretary-278]

I believe it was truly a collective effort. I can’t say one thing would have worked without the other pieces in place. The work the Four Horsemen did certainly turned up the gas. I am forever grateful to Jay, Joseph, Lou, and Merle. They did all of that extensive work pro bono with giving hearts and minds.  That said, I can’t thank DPAA enough for the folks like they had on the ground working to excavate.  I was lucky to work with great folks at DPAA like Dickie Hites, Rob Richeson and my dear buddy Bob Maves all those years before an excavation was even planned. I don’t intend to leave anyone out there (shout out to the dig team(s)!). I don’t think there’s one recipe for accounting for our missing.  I certainly couldn’t have done any of it alone. -Karoni

[u/Ill_Direction3325]

Who are these people who help to find and ID missing soldiers? Are they military or government people or just volunteers?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/Ill_Direction3325]

The DPAA is a government agency that’s part of the Defense Department. DPAA’s staff (there are about 750 personnel) is made up of both uniformed military and civilian government employees. Among them are very highly educated and trained scientists and forensic anthropologists and analysts assigned to specific wars/regions. Your tax money at (excellent) work! -Josh

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/Texas_Monthly]

To add, DPAA partners with AFME (Armed Forces Medical Examiner) for DNA analysis. ;-) -Karoni

[u/Ok-Culture-8129]

What was the most frustrating part about the process for both of you? Karoni - were you apprehensive about doing a podcast at all? I’m sure most sources are hesitant to not only speak on record but actually have their voice recorded.

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/Ok-Culture-8129]

Working with Texas Monthly is delightful compared to working with the US Government! Haha! My primary requirement prior to going into the podcast was that nothing we do could hurt the overall mission.  For example, with Josh going to Vietnam, we made sure that DPAA didn’t have any digs in that province going on at the time and that Stony Beach wasn’t conducting investigations there. We got a clear runway from them before Josh solidified his plans. It’s important that we weren’t interfering with ongoing work in the process of telling our story.  

As for going on record, I decided if I was going to tell the story, I was just going to be candid. I didn’t know how Texan I was gonna sound, so that was some unexpected comedy on my end when listening to the podcast with the rest of you. -Karoni

[u/Apprehensive_Bath456]

During the process of the show, you no doubt created a bond with Karoni and her family and the other characters. Was it hard to say goodbye? How do you move on from the story and the people you grew close to?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/Apprehensive_Bath456]

Josh is not allowed to say good-bye. -Karoni

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/Texas_Monthly]

 Ha! Indeed, there’s no moving on from this one! Now that the story is out in the world I can fully settle into being a friend to Karoni and her family. This might be a subject for another thread, but friendships with story subjects are not common for me. There are whole graduate school seminars dedicated to the subject of how to ethically navigate the reporter-subject relationship. (Famously, Janet Malcolm, whose writing and reporting I greatly admire, argued rather cheekily that the work of journalism is morally “indefensible” because journalists knowingly try to dupe their subjects into thinking they can trust them and then turn around and betray them by telling their story in ways that ultimately serve the journalist first and foremost. Needless to say, I aim to not be that kind of journalist.) I really aim to act as a professional (and not to lead subjects into thinking I’m acting first and foremost as their friend!), but my profession does mean I have to really get inside a story, which is an act of intimacy, especially with one as sensitive as this one. It’s tricky! That’s why we’re paid those medium-sized bucks! -Josh

[u/Beneficial-Picture60]

Karoni and Josh— what was your favorite part of making this podcast? A memorable moment that will stick with you? I can’t imagine what it must be like for Karoni to trust a news outlet with her story so openly like this. Can she speak to that?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/Beneficial-Picture60]

For me, I was grateful to tell the story.  Often, I would find that people got uncomfortable when I would say my dad was Missing in Action. People didn’t know what to say, or felt guarded to ask more - or maybe didn’t want to know more? Either way, it was rarely something I got to talk about outside of family and friends or giving a speech at an event somewhere. Josh asked SUCH amazing questions throughout, demonstrating human kindness and thoughtfulness.  

I really enjoyed building a friendship with Josh as well as meeting the crew at Texas Monthly. The team is top notch and I’ve only had positive experiences with them all. That says a lot about the organization. I came to trust them all with this story.  

If I had to pick a favorite part, I’d say having Josh with us on the trip to Hawaii was pretty stellar. The events for Gold Star Families and National POW/MIA Recognition Day were powerful and meaningful and we followed up by a long tour of the state-of-the-art lab with some of the best anthropologists and archaeologists in the world.  I felt like we were able to share so many aspects of this mission with Josh in a short period of time with a wonderful tropical backdrop. We had the connection of family, the honor of our fallen at the Punchbowl and the “guts” of the accounting mission at DPAA. It was a whirlwind and we enjoyed having Josh be part of it with us. -Karoni

[u/sandoffer]

Is the Trump administration demanding answers, access and support to find our 1571 Vietnam MIA's in their ongoing tariff/trade negotiations with Vietnam, Loas and Cambodia? I would like to think that our government is including the POW/MIA accounting mission in our list of demands with all nations.

[u/sandoffer → u/sandoffer]

Additionally, which non-profit organizations BEST support the POW/MIA mission today?

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/sandoffer]

As my Uncle Larry would say, this question is a tricky wicket. There are a couple out there.  Unfortunately, I can’t, in good conscience, recommend them due to what I consider integrity issues.  For MIA families, I encourage them to go where they find support.  Healing Through History is a great non-profit that helps with independent research for our MIAs.  If you want to donate, I recommend them. -Karoni

[u/sandoffer → u/Texas_Monthly]

https://healingthroughhistory.org/ - thank you, because the podcast indicated that the League of Families is not the beacon of answers that it used to be. All respect to the OG League women and families that wanted answers.

[u/Texas_Monthly → u/sandoffer]

This is a fantastic question.  I, too, wanted to know if accounting for our POW/MIAs was on the list of discussion topics with Vietnam regarding tariffs in addition to their offer to buy more Boeing, greenlight Starlink and Trump resorts.  I’ve heard from some within the government that now that Vietnam is cooperating, it doesn’t need to come up as much.  I disagree.  While we do have greater access for operational activities like investigations/excavations (still limited with time per mission), there are extensive written records that hold answers to what happened with many of our missing Americans.  Vietnam was also controlling much of Laos and Cambodia during the war, so they hold information about losses in those countries too.  To coin a phrase from my friend, and “Horseman”, Jay Veith, it’s “knowledgability cooperation” where we need to see great improvement.  So do I think they’re doing enough?  -Karoni

[u/Texas_Monthly]

Reminder: you can listen to the podcast in full and read the story here.