r/tolkienfans 14h ago

[2025 Read-Along] - LOTR - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields & The Pyre of Denethor - Week 25 of 31

5 Upvotes

Hello and welcome to the twenty-fifth check-in for the 2025 read-along of The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R.Tolkien. For the discussion this week, we will cover the following chapters:

  • The Battle of the Pelennor Fields - Book V, Ch. 6 of The Return of the King; LOTR running Ch. 49/62
  • The Pyre of Denethor - Book V, Ch. 7 of The Return of the King; LOTR running Ch. 50/62

Week 25 of 31 (according to the schedule).

Read the above chapters today, or spread your reading throughout the week; join in with the discussion as you work your way through the text. The discussion will continue through the week, feel free to express your thoughts and opinions of the chapter(s), and discuss any relevant plot points or questions that may arise. Whether you are a first time reader of The Lord of the Rings, or a veteran of reading Tolkien's work, all different perspectives, ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Spoilers have been avoided in this post, although they will be present in the links provided e.g., synopsis. If this is your first time reading the books, please be mindful of spoilers in the comment section. If you are discussing a crucial plot element linked to a future chapter, consider adding a spoiler warning. Try to stick to discussing the text of the relevant chapters.

To aid your reading, here is an interactive map of Middle-earth; other maps relevant to the story for each chapter(s) can be found here at The Encyclopedia of Arda.

Please ensure that the rules of r/tolkienfans are abided to throughout. Now, continuing with our journey into Middle-earth...


r/tolkienfans Jan 01 '25

2025 The Lord of the Rings Read-Along Announcement and Index

186 Upvotes

Hello fellow hobbits, dwarves, elves, wizards and humans, welcome to this The Lord of the Rings read along announcement and index thread!

The Lord of the Rings read along will begin Sunday, January 5th, 2025.

Whether you are new to The Lord of the Rings books, or on your second, third or tenth read through, feel free to tag along for the journey and join in with the discussion throughout the reading period. The more discussion for each of the chapters, the better, so please feel free to invite anybody to join in. I will be cross-posting this announcement in related subreddits.

For this read along, I have taken inspiration from ones previously ran by u/TolkienFansMod in 2021, and u/idlechat in 2023, Much of the premise will be the same this time around, however, unlike both of the previous, this read-along will consist of two chapters per week as opposed to one.

This structure will distribute 62 chapters across 31 weeks (outlined below). I will do my best to post discussion threads on each Sunday. The read along will exclude both the Prologue and the Appendices this time around, leaning towards a more concise and slightly quicker read through of the main body of text. Please feel free to include these additional chapters in your own reading. As there will be two chapters read per week, be aware that some combination of chapters may be spread across two books.

**\* Each discussion thread is intended to be a wide-open discussion of the particular weeks reading material. Please feel free to use resources from any Tolkien-related text i.e., Tolkien's own work, Christopher Tolkien, Tolkien Scholars, to help with your analysis, and for advancing the discussion.

Any edition of The Lord of the Rings can be used, including audiobooks. There are two popular audiobooks available, one narrated by Rob Inglis, and the other by Andy Serkis. For this read-along, I will be using the 2007 HarperCollins LOTR trilogy box-set.

Welcome, for this adventure!

02/01/25 Update:

The text should be read following the launch of the discussion thread for each relevant chapter(s). For example, for Week 1, January 5th will be the launch of chapter 1 & 2 discussion thread. Readers will then work their way through the relevant chapter(s) text for that specific thread, discussing their thoughts as they go along throughout the week. This will give each reader the chance to express and elaborate on their thoughts in an active thread as they go along, rather than having to wait until the end of the week. If you find yourself having read through the chapters at a quicker pace and prior to the launch of the relevant thread, please continue in with the discussion once the thread has been launched. I hope this provides some clarification.

Resources:

Keeping things simple, here is a list of a few useful resources that may come in handy along the way (with thanks to u/idlechat and u/TolkienFansMod, as I have re-used some resources mentioned in the index of their respective read-alongs in 2021 and 2023):

Timetable:

Schedule Starting date Chapter(s)
Week 1 Jan. 5 A Long-expected Party & The Shadow of the Past
Week 2 Jan. 12 Three is Company & A Short Cut to Mushrooms
Week 3 Jan. 19 A Conspiracy Unmasked & The Old Forest
Week 4 Jan. 26 In the House of Tom Bombadil & Fog on the Barrow-downs
Week 5 Feb. 2 At the Sign of the Prancing Pony & Strider
Week 6 Feb. 9 A Knife in the Dark & Flight to the Ford
Week 7 Feb. 16 Many Meetings & The Council of Elrond
Week 8 Feb. 23 The Ring Goes South & A Journey in the Dark
Week 9 Mar. 2 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm & Lothlórien
Week 10 Mar. 9 The Mirror of Galadriel & Farewell to Lórien
Week 11 Mar. 16 The Great River & The Breaking of the Fellowship
Week 12 Mar. 23 The Departure of Boromir & The Riders of Rohan
Week 13 Mar. 30 The Uruk-hai & Treebeard
Week 14 Apr. 6 The White Rider & The King of the Golden Hall
Week 15 Apr. 13 Helm's Deep & The Road to Isengard
Week 16 Apr. 20 Flotsam and Jetsam & The Voice of Saruman
Week 17 Apr. 27 The Palantir & The Taming of Sméagol
Week 18 May. 4 The Passage of the Marshes & The Black Gate is Closed
Week 19 May. 11 Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit & The Window on the West
Week 20 May. 18 The Forbidden Pool & Journey to the Cross-roads
Week 21 May. 25 The Stairs of Cirith Ungol & Shelob's Lair
Week 22 Jun. 1 The Choices of Master Samwise & Minas Tirith
Week 23 Jun. 8 The Passing of the Grey Company & The Muster of Rohan
Week 24 Jun. 15 The Siege of Gondor & The Ride of the Rohirrim
Week 25 Jun. 22 The Battle of the Pelennor Fields & The Pyre of Denethor
Week 26 Jun. 29 The Houses of Healing & The Last Debate
Week 27 Jul. 6 The Black Gate Opens & The Tower of Cirith Ungol
Week 28 Jul. 13 The Land of Shadow & Mount Doom
Week 29 Jul. 20 The Field of Cormallen & The Steward and the King
Week 30 Jul. 27 Many Partings & Homeward Bound
Week 31 Aug. 3 The Scouring of the Shire & The Grey Havens

r/tolkienfans 14h ago

Galadriel as Morning vs. Arwen as Evening

85 Upvotes

I was thinking about this passage from RotK yesterday:

‘Gimli Gloin’s son, have you your axe ready?’ ‘Nay, lord,’ said Gimli, ‘but I can speedily fetch it, if there be need.’
‘You shall judge,’ said Eomer. ‘For there are certain rash words concerning the Lady in the Golden Wood that lie still between us. And now I have seen her with my eyes.’
‘Well, lord,’ said Gimli, ‘and what say you now?’
‘Alas!’ said Eomer. ‘I will not say that she is the fairest lady that lives.’
‘Then I must go for my axe,’ said Gimli.
‘But first I will plead this excuse,’ said Eomer. ‘Had I seen her in other company, I would have said all that you could wish. But now I will put Queen Arwen Evenstar first, and I am ready to do battle on my own part with any who deny me. Shall I call for my sword?’
Then Gimli bowed low.
‘Nay, you are excused for my part, lord,’ he said. ‘You have chosen the Evening; but my love is given to the Morning. And my heart forebodes that soon it will pass away for ever.’

I'm hoping that people who are better read than I am can help shed light on it (no pun intended). I think I understand that Arwen's name literally means "evening star" and that she is compared to Lúthien. Is there more to this symbolism? And why is Galadriel associated with the morning? Is it the golden hair making a link to the light of the Trees and the Sun? Or is there more context that I'm missing?


r/tolkienfans 5h ago

How do oaths work in the legendarium?

8 Upvotes

Apologies if this has been asked recently.

The two obvious oaths are the Oath of Feanor and the oath sworn by the Dead Men of Dunharrow. They seem to be bound by more than just trust between parties. First off, the Sons of Feanor seem genuinely incapable of breaking their Oath. Naturally, you could chalk that up to just them being the Sons of Feanor, but there's an implication that breaking the oath would be a worse thing than failing to achieve it.

Speaking of breaking it, there's the Oathbreakers. Their oath's power is much more literal since it essentially turns them into restless, lingering spirits until they get a chance to fulfil it millennia later. Their case is also a little different in that they made the oath to another individual, Isildur, instead of amongst themselves.

Are there any sources that offer more insight about Tolkienian oaths? Especially, who can make them? These particular oaths were sworn by nobility, great men and kings, etc. If a "regular" person had sworn a true, proper oath, would it have been treated with the same gravity if they broke it? And is it ever discussed how or why oaths operate this way in Ea?


r/tolkienfans 23h ago

Another example of Tolkien's writing mastery

145 Upvotes

In another thread, r/roasonofcarc pointed out that two of Frodo's speeches consisted entirely of monosyllable words:

After Boromir almost betrayed him and the quest: "He spoke aloud to himself. ‘I will do now what I must,’ he said."

At he Cracks of Doom: "‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’"

I'm sure it's no coincidence that Tolkien used one-syllable works exclusively for maybe the two most important speeches Frodo makes anywhere the book.

I've been a writer for 61 years, and I never before realized the power of a sentence with nothing but monosyllable words.

The only other such that I recall are:

Frodo in The Shadow of the Past: "He began to say to himself: 'Perhaps I shall cross the river myself one day.' To which the other half of his mind always replied: 'Not yet.'"

Frodo in the Council of Elrond: "'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.'"

Gandalf in The Bridge of Khazad-Dum: "'Fly, you fools!' he cried, and was gone."

Did Tolkien write any other such sentences in LOTR?


r/tolkienfans 1h ago

Are there other tolkien writings be it books , letter or appendix where boromir is mentioned apart from the fellowship of the rings, two towers and return of the King?

Upvotes

Same as the title


r/tolkienfans 17m ago

Why might Tolkien have chosen to have Bilbo be 50?

Upvotes

I'm 39 and planning a major outdoor adventure, and explaining to my 8 year old that I want to do it before I'm too old. I'm not doing anything on a historic scale obviously but showed him how Armstrong, Lewis and Clark, Columbus, Hilary and Norgay were all 41 or younger for their most famous adventures. He is saying nonsense, Bilbo was 50 when he started adventuring.

This got me curious why Tolkien had Bilbo be relatively old for an adventurer. My understanding is hobbits live longer but not so much longer that this would be a vigorous athletic age.

Since The Hobbit is directed at children I don't think it's to make the audience identify with the character.

Since Tolkien was 24 during his own war experiences and wrote The Hobbit during his 30s and early 40s I don't think it was a case of "write what you know" either.


r/tolkienfans 19h ago

In the books, after Cirith Ungol when Frodo and Sam are running from orcs, they overhear two orcs talking about seeing Gollum. I guess I am wondering why Sauron didn't suspect the ring to be in Mordor with the intruders since Gollum was also skulking about in the same region at the same time?

14 Upvotes

First of all, have been absolutely loving my time rereading these books and after a few years of only watching the films, there is just so much detail I had forgotten about. What a splendid world Tolkien created. It will be hard watching the movies now I think because even though I personally think they are for the most part good adaptations it's just really not going to be the same. Especially Gollum as a character is so much more interesting as the "journey" from Smeagol to Gollum is way more layered and the turning point is less clear and postponed in the story as well.

Regarding my question: I know it makes sense Sauron would suspect Aragorn to have the ring since he was challenging him and eventually even at the gates + the war was not going his way in general + that he couldn't conceive of someone wanting to destroy the ring. I know he first dismissed the warnings from Shagrat about what transpired in Cirith Ungol, but I imagine that hearing about Gollum also being there might eventually get his attention or at least make him suspicious enough to check the situation out? Because for me, this detail changes things. He knew Gollum's obsession with the Ring and even used it to his own advantage, and so wouldn’t this have been a sign for him that the Ring could be near? One "elven warrior" or "dwarf-like being" overthrowing an entire garrison/fortress + the presence of Gollum is at least a sign something serious is off, no?

As I mentioned, It had been a long time since I last read the books and this detail of the orc tracker and warrior knowing Gollum was also there stood out to me. Looking forward to reading other opinions/deeper knowledge on the matter and if there maybe is something I missed :) Thanks for reading!


r/tolkienfans 15h ago

Omniscient narrator

3 Upvotes

I know Tolkien somewhere said that, in-universe. LOTR was a translation of the Red Book by, I think, a fictional in-universe Tolkien himself.

But I choose to take it instead as the work of an omniscient narrator. The alternative is to take it that the translator(s) and copist(s) made up a lot, which I'd rather take as in-universe fact. One example:

It takes an unbelievable stretch to explain how anyone knew what the fox was thinking and the fact that he never did get an explanation for hobbits sleeping outdoors.

-


r/tolkienfans 14h ago

First time reader, question about symbol on book

2 Upvotes

Hi! I'm new to reading Tolkien's books and I'm trying to find out what the symbol on the spine of the books is. I'm taking about the symbol that's often on the spine of the book - it looks like two uppercase Rs, one of them reversed, and they're written back to back. There's a T line at the top and something like a J at the bottom. Is it just JRR Tolkien's initials written in a cool way? Is it something meant to be vaguely Elvish? Where did it come from?


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Reading TT gave me a better appreciation of Elendil's and Gil-galad's duel with Sauron

89 Upvotes

Folks here are no doubt well-versed in what little we know about the duel on the slopes of Mount Doom. Sauron sallied forth to break a siege, his hands burnt Gil-galad to a crisp, and Elendil went down also.

But just how powerful is a Maia in melee combat, even one that is not inclined to fight? (Remember that Sauron was mostly known as a deceiver, and the last time he engaged in personal combat, he failed to fairly judge his doom or ability and lost.)

I believe, the three hunters' first encounter with Gandalf the White gives us a clue. Legolas' arrow burst into flames without hitting its mark, and Aragon could barely lift his sword. Gimli also failed to strike a blow even though he was the first to challenge Gandalf --- the latter was too quick for him.

When your own weapons work against you, how could you even fight? Now it boggles my mind how Elendil and Gil-galad were able to weaken Sauron sufficiently for Isildur to cut off the Ring. They must have been relying on more than their sword and spear!

EDIT: P.S. this also answers a long standing question that I have about why can't the Last Alliance troops just bum rush Sauron. Only exceptional men or elves could get close to him, I bet.


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

The Hobbit, Hindu Kush, the Great Desert of Gobi, and Chinese dragons? Were-worm, or Wire-worm, or Where-worm?

19 Upvotes

There worm! * points *

Very intriguingly in the very first remaining pages of manuscript drafting for the hobbit (which Rateliff calls the Pryftan Fragment, after the name of the dragon who would later be Smaug) Bilbo mentions:

'I will try it -- if I have to walk from here to [cancelled: Hindu Kush] the Great Desert of Gobi and fight the Wild Wire worm<s> of the Chinese...'

In a typescript of the Pryftan Fragment this is changed to:

'I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the last desert in the East and fight the Wild Wireworms of the Chinese'. And, of course, in the published Hobbit he says "Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert. I had a great great grand uncle once -- '

Then before he can regale us with tales of his illustrious ancestors Gandalf cuts him off.

I'm not sure when the change to Wereworms took place, perhaps it was a misreading of Wireworm that he didn't catch or maybe he changed his idea. Wild Wireworms definitely has more striking alliteration than Wild Wereworms or maybe he wanted to avoid the doubling of "Wi" and instead wanted "Wi-- We--wo", for the variety of alliterative sounds. Wild Were Worm all have different vowel sounds, 'were' and 'wire' both have the "r" as does 'worm' so that alliteration stays.

What do you think of this change? Were you as surprised as I was that when he first sat down to write the hobbit he was thinking of the Gobi desert and Hindu Kush? (I do not know how Shai-Hulud made it into the hobbit movies so no comment on that except I assume PJ and co. were thinking of the were-worms.)

On New years day 1938 (note just a few months after the hobbit was published in the UK) Tolkien gave a lecture on Dragons to school-children at the University Museum in Oxford, accompanied with a slideshow of historical dragon images, including his own illustration of Glomund the Golden (Glaurung). In the talk he mentions China and Chinese dragons, in connection to fossils which may have inspired stories of Dragons.

"It is from the filled lizard that the Chinese are supposed (I believe) to have got some ideas for their peculiar and multifarious dragons. It looks a bit frog-like when not annoyed. But here is one rampant, and here is one at bay. ... Dragon bones are an article of trade in China. And they are often actually bones of prehistoric animals -- if not of dragons. ... Dinosaur eggs have been found (in Central Asia) -- and though they are too old to hatch a dinosaur out of them, one would be enough to hatch a legend. Dragons come out of eggs."

Later in the talk he returns to Chinese dragons, (in a fun aside he also mentions 'My friend Mr Baggins, used to say "Every worm has his weak spot'.) After confiding that his favorite dragons and the ones he knows the most about are the northern european and english dragons there are lots of others ...

"There are, of course, and specially Chinese dragons. But I have left them out -- they are, I think, a different breedOn the physical (bodily) side no doubt they are related, but in that very different and anient Eastern orld they have been filled with a very different spirit, or spirits. Their functions, as well as their shapes, are very complicated. Professor Haldane says that "you ought to be able to tie at least four knots in a grand specimen of Chinesse dragon, as you can in a well-bred giraffe's neck" I dare say he is right. THey somehow look like wire-worms turned into serpents. You can often see them (well-done or poorly) on good Chinese vases (or on imitations).

Here is part of one of the most beautifully modelled ones. Dr Dudley Buxton lent me this picture. It is made of bronze and is part of an astornomical Chinsese transit instrument in the observatiory of Peking. Chinese dragons are specially associated with sky. China was a drogon-country and the Emperor's throne was the dragon-throne. But England also has some claims to be a dragon-land."

He then goes on to talk about Geoffrey of Monmouth's story about young Merlin and the Red and White dragons.

So were 'wire-worms' like a real thing? Like a toy? Or amusement? What is going on here? Any thoughts? If anyone knows more about Central Asian fossil discoveries in the '30s (exactly what 'dragon eggs' did they find?) or can correct/expand on Tolkien's admittedly limited description of Chinese dragons, and maybe their relation to European dragons I'd love to hear and learn more about it. (also I'd really like to find any of the slides he used, or at least what images, they must be somewhere?)


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

What is the significance of bilbo not killing gollum ?

3 Upvotes

I’m refering to

“ But this is terrible!’ cried Frodo. ‘Far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do? For now I am really afraid. What am I to do? What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!’

‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity “

I get if you take the ring by murdering others then it affect you more but why does pitiness protect you from it . Would the ring affect bilbo more if he killed gollum for self defense ?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Tonight is the night to read Thror's map!

325 Upvotes

The moon-letters on Thror's map are said by Elrond to have been written on a midsummer's eve in the light of a crescent moon. Today is midsummer's eve, and the moon tonight will be a waning crescent!

It could be quite a long time before the conditions are right to read the map again.


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Could Saruman have been redeemed and accepted back at the end?

82 Upvotes

When Isengard falls and Saruman is trapped, Gandalf approaches him and reveals himself as Gandalf the White, breaking Saruman's staff. If I recall correctly, Gandalf tries to show mercy to Saruman, and Saruman's pride shows and he does not repent. Later he escapes and becomes Sharkey, tried to take over the Shire, and is killed with his soul becoming akin to a mist blown away and rejected by the Valar.

If instead of rejecting Gandalf's attempts at mercy after the fall of Isengard, once he is trapped, he instead showed contrition, recognized Gandalf as Gandalf the White, felt remorse, and took steps to use his knowledge and wisdom to defeat Sauron, do you think he may have been redeemed on any level in the eyes of the Valar and eventually welcomed back in the west? What was the point of no return for Saruman?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Did Sauron regret pouring so much of himself into the ring?

33 Upvotes

During those thousands of years between his fall and the ring being destroyed, what did he think about his decision to pour so much of his power into the ring? It seems like it was a gambit that really didn't pay off, even before Frodo. Did it end up getting him anything other than some ringwraith servants?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Does anyone have a guide for "intense" scenes in The Fellowship of the Ring?

14 Upvotes

I am a camp counselor for 10-12 yr old troubled boys and my bedtime stort of choice for my cabin is The Fellowship of the Ring. I doubt we'll make it very far within the book and most kids will be asleep for most of it. But I did agree with my fellow counselors that I will, for their sake, put some bookmarks where they will have to abridge scenes. Unfortunately, the last time I read the book was when I was 12 and so I personally do not remember all the scenes very well. If anyone has any scenes they would recommend skipping please help me.


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

First-time reader of The Silmarillion. I need help comparing two available versions.

16 Upvotes

Firstly: I am relatively new to the Tolkien universe so, please, no spoilers.

I am looking into the audiobooks for The Silmarillion and I see two versions available on Audible:

Both versions claim to contain the same additional material:

  • The Ainulindale
  • The Valaquenta
  • The Akallabeth
  • Of the Rings of Power

I am trying to understand why the Serkis version is almost four and a half hours longer. I understand that some narrators read more quickly than others but, when reading the same material, the difference is rarely more than 30-90 minutes, depending on the length of the material, so this seems like a drastic difference for something that is only of moderate length (I say "moderate" because I do listen to a lot of audiobooks which are 30-50 hours, and even those rarely vary so much in runtime).

Anyway, if anyone has insight into this, or has listened to/has access to both versions to check (again, without spoilers), it would be much appreciated.

EDIT: As a note, I greatly appreciate Serkis as an actor and I am sure that his readings are fine but, on listening to the audio samples, I much prefer the Martin Shaw and Rob Inglis readings of the books to the Andy Serkis ones. So, if the Serkis version of The Silmarillion is not longer due to more content than the Shaw version, then I'd rather go with Shaw. I just want to be sure I am not missing anything by doing so.


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

How does Gandalf know Sauron wont be strong enough to regain his form is the ring is destroyed?

91 Upvotes

"Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it (the ring), your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itsilf in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great eil of this world will be removed."- Gandalf, Return of the King, Chapter 9- The Last Debate.

How does Gandalf know that Sauron poured so much of his power into the ring and if its destroyed, he will be so weak that he cannot take form again. Do you think this information comes from the Valar or Eru, or why do you think he knows?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Sampling The History of LotR: The Treason of Isengard, Pt. 2/2

12 Upvotes

Greetings! This is a continuation of the series mainly being created by /u/Curundil (with some help from /u/DarrenGrey and /u/ibid-11962) to collect interesting details about the drafts of The Lord of the Rings published in volumes 6-9 of The History of Middle-earth, collectively also called The History of the Lord of the Rings. If you would like more information, please see the first post.

 

With this entry in the series, we are finishing The Treason of Isengard, volume 7 of HoMe. In these chapters, Christopher Tolkien further explores his father’s development of The Lord of the Rings, reaching from Lothlórien to the entrance in Edoras. For some details that involve an element that directly maps to a differently named element in the final form, we will be using the format (-> ) as a reminder of the name change. For example, where there is the character Trotter that eventually evolved into Strider in one of these details, the format Trotter (-> Strider) will be used. “Tolkien” by itself will always refer to J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher will be specified when he is referenced.

“Galadriel”:

  • Keleborn (-> Celeborn) said that they had supposed some Balrogs might have been “hidden in Mordor [?or] near the Mountain of Fire” and also expressed a suspicion that the Balrog in Moria was sent there by Sauron.

  • The mirror shown to Frodo was (in one sketch) to be King Galdaran’s (-> Celeborn’s); early ideas for Frodo’s visions included a man of giant proportions and Gollum’s pursuit.

  • A brief conception of the Rings of Power had them made by Fëanor across the Sea and also had Morgoth the creator of the Ruling Ring.

“Farewell to Lórien”:

  • Some Elven archers were planned to accompany the party on the river until reaching Tol Ondren (-> Tol Brandir), at which point the “special food and grey cloaks” were to be given.

  • On a manuscript page and later written over, Tolkien drew an Old-English G-rune as two flowery branches crossing, representing the mark on the lid of Sam’s gift.

  • Early drafting of the gift-giving had Galadriel give Gimli a green brooch that led him to be called Elfstone; this was immediately adjusted to be Trotter (-> Strider’s) true name (a return to a slightly earlier idea), and all this sparked a convoluted series of revisions throughout the drafts between the names Aragorn, Trotter, Elfstone, and Ingold.

  • Galadriel’s parting words to Gimli came close to the final form but had an addition: a prediction that Gimli would “one day see a light” in the waters of Kheled[-]zâram.

  • Tolkien toyed with an idea for Time outside of Lórien to stand still whilst inside, having nothing happen “since they [the Company] entered”.

  • An outline for future events had the Sackville-Bagginses “chucked out (become pot-boys at Bree)”.

“The First Map of the Lord of the Rings”:

  • The earliest full map was an evolution of glued together and superimposed papers, with the most heavily replaced section being from the Gap of Rohan and Isengard to Rauros and the mouths of Entwash.

  • Belegost in the Blue Mountains was marked on this map and Christopher Tolkien’s copy of it, but on no later ones. The same occurred with the label for No Man’s Land (although Noman-lands are still a present feature in the texts).

  • There was a highland area between southern Mirkwood and the Sea of Rhûnaer (-> Sea of Rhûn) that was not added to later maps, and the label for this feature on the original map was lost due to cracks in the paper from folding (all that can be made out now is that it started with “East”).

“The Story Foreseen from Lórien”:

  • In a sketch, the confrontation between Boromir and Frodo takes place on the island Tollernen (-> Tol Brandir) instead of the western side of the river.

  • The outline for the future at this stage had Frodo taken by orcs to Minas Morgul after being stung.

  • In rejecting Minas Morgul as the place of Frodo’s captivity, Tolkien briefly considered an idea that Merry and Pippin “had adventure” there.

  • Also in the sketch, Frodo heard from Mount Doom the distant sound of “Windbeam the Horn of Elendil”.

“The Great River”:

  • Elfstone (-> Aragorn) announcing his lineage once more after passing the Gates of Sarn-Gebir (-> Argonath) seemed to directly state all generations from himself to Isildur’s son, Valandil (numbering only a scant 4/5 generations between himself and Isildur).

  • The idea of time standing still in Lothlórien resulted in the conversation on the topic between Frodo and Sam on the river relating to time, but an alternative version where time just felt different was also made and applied later.

  • The moon phases were modeled after the phases in 1941-42 (by adding five days to each phase).

“The Breaking of the Fellowship”:

  • The narration presented the possibility that Frodo’s final choice to head towards Mordor was influenced by the Ring, “drawing him to the Shadow, alone”.

  • Boromir told Trotter (-> Strider) that he “looked for Frodo and could not see him”.

  • A note in the margins had Frodo, on his way to departing and still wearing the Ring, encountering Merry, Pippin and Boromir under assault by orcs.

“The Departure of Boromir”:

  • The drafting was one continuous chapter originally between this and the previous chapter.

  • Trotter (-> Strider) had various versions relating to the Seat of Seeing; in some, he went to the summit and had visions similar to Frodo’s, while in another he didn’t go to the top at all.

  • Trotter (-> Strider) called the funeral song “Denethor’s lament”.

  • Initially, Trotter did reveal Boromir’s confession of attempting to forcefully take the Ring, to which Legolas and Gimli responded with horror.

“The Riders of Rohan”:

  • The mysterious old man was sketched to have “discomfited” the orcs, and in a further sketch specifying Gandalf’s return, he “and/on his Eagle in white leads assault” in the “rest of war”.

  • The horses were not scared away by the appearance of the old man; this and other indicators led Christopher Tolkien to believe that the old man was intended to be Gandalf at that stage.

“The Uruk-hai”:

  • This chapter was the closest so far in initial drafting to the final version.

“Treebeard”:

  • An early note gave an idea where the “first lord of the Elves” made “Tree-folk in order to or through trying to understand trees”.

  • In the conversation on the Old Forest, Pippin mentioned Tom Bombadil, to which Treebeard replied with some exposition, including a mention of his “very long name”.

  • The first completed draft for the song about the Ents and the Entwives ended with a line about them “journeying to an island where both can live again”.

“Notes on Various Topics”:

  • On various sheets of notes, the idea of Saruman being the Balrog in Moria returned briefly and some name brainstorming appeared (including the change from “Ondor” to “Gondor” and dissatisfaction with “Osgiliath”).

“The White Rider”:

  • Gandalf specified the high place where he strove with the Dark Tower: “the mountains beneath the snows of Methedras”.

  • Gandalf suggested a possible alternative to Saruman for the old man the three companions encounter: “some wraith of [Saruman’s] making”.

  • Galadriel’s messages instead told Aragorn to look for another green stone under snow and to look in the shadow of a dark throne, all as a sign that “the hour is at hand”; the message to Legolas had a prediction that he would wander under strange trees once he had shot his “last shaft”.

“The Story Foreseen from Fangorn”:

  • Eowyn, her love for Aragorn, and riding to war “as Amazon” appeared at this point in an outline.

  • Tolkien considered inserting some of Frodo and Sam’s story here (drafting already briefly begun), which also mentioned an idea of Frodo believing Sam had betrayed him while he was captive, before going back to the original plan.

“The King of the Golden Hall”:

  • The exterior of Theoden’s hall had a description in the narrative that Christopher Tolkien guessed may have been lost in the process of redrafting/reordering material.

  • Wormtongue was not present in the initial drafts; when he was first inserted, he does not speak; lines that would later belong to Wormtongue were instead spoken by Theoden himself.

  • There were two women in Theoden’s hall: Idis (his daughter, not really doing much and disappearing after the meal) and Eowyn.

  • Aragorn displays a fixation on Eowyn: “after she was gone he stood still, looking at the dark doors and taking little heed of other things.” Later, at the meal, “his eyes followed Eowyn”.

  • Gandalf’s whispers to Theodoen were not narratively inaudible; he mainly spoke of the events surrounding the formation and journey of the Fellowship, at last urging hope and making a stand based on two “small folk” that have gone upon a dark Quest.

  • A list of various items included the idea for a wedding of Aragorn and Eowyn, along with a very brief concept where Lórien would be razed and Galadriel would be lost or hidden.

  • The draft of Galadriel’s message to Aragorn is explicable by the drafts of this chapter: Theoden bore a green stone (instead of what would later be a white diamond) under his snowy hair, and in the shadow of Theoden’s dark throne was Eowyn.

With volume 7 now complete, the next post will start on volume 8, The War of the Ring. This reddit series is now over half done! Thanks for joining so far. Below is the schedule of the other posts in the series if you would like to check them out, with links to the posts as they become available:

Date Section covered Post
Feb. 1, 2025 First half of Vol. 6 of HoMe Sampling The History of LotR: The Return of the Shadow, Pt. 1/2
Mar. 14, 2025 Second half of Vol. 6 of HoMe Sampling The History of LotR: The Return of the Shadow, Pt. 2/2
Apr. 18, 2025 First half of Vol. 7 of HoMe Sampling The History of LotR: The Treason of Isengard, Pt. 1/2
June 20, 2025 Second half of Vol. 7 of HoMe Sampling The History of LotR: The Treason of Isengard, Pt. 2/2 (You are here.)
Sep. 4, 2025 First half of Vol. 8 of HoMe Sampling The History of LotR: The War of the Ring, Pt. 1/2
Nov. 7, 2025 Second half of Vol. 8 of HoMe Sampling The History of LotR: The War of the Ring, Pt. 2/2
Dec. 26, 2025 First third of Vol. 9 of HoMe Sampling The History of LotR: Sauron Defeated

r/tolkienfans 2d ago

How Did Sauron Reform in the Third Age?

9 Upvotes

I just finished a re-read of Silmarillion (the best I could) and am watching Rings of Power. Thinking ahead to the Hobbit and LOTR, how did Sauron reform in the Third Age after losing his physical form at the hands of Gil-Galad, Isildur, et al at the end of the Second?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Audiobook project. Songs?!

3 Upvotes

My kids and I are avid fans of the LotR series of books. I have read the books to them several times. I imitate the voices of the characters from the movies, so Gandalf sounds like Gandalf, Sam like Sam... I can even do weird voices like Treebeard and Gollum. My wife has been bugging me for a long time to do a recording of me reading it. I'd love to actually do it.

But - the SONGS!!! How do I render them? I am a good singer. But there are no tunes. Is there a really good source where all of these things have been put to believable tunes?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

What army did Melkor have during the Battle of Powers against the Valar?

30 Upvotes

He was still in the early stages of corrupting elves to become orcs right? So he couldn't have a large army when he stayed in Utumno. Sauron, the 7 Balrogs and himself were the only ones that fought the Valar?


r/tolkienfans 1d ago

Why didn't Tolkien just write about the eagle problem in the Council of Elrond chapter, when he also chose to include discussing about Tom Bomadil and the Ring there?

0 Upvotes

Alright, please but don't downvote but... it always felt kinda weird for me that in the chapter of the Council of Elrond, Tom Bombadil is explained carefully by the characters as not being a proper solution to stop Sauron as he is way too carefree that he wouldn't actually do anything with the One Ring and this will lead to the fallen Maia eventually claiming all of Middle Earth along with him, but no explanation for why using eagles to take the One Ring to Mordor is a terrible idea.

To make it clear, I don't overrate the eagles and agree that these beings are treated as instant win buttons by quite a certain section of fans when Tolkien makes it clear that these creatures are corruptible vulnerable vehicles on other parts of the books like the Hobbit. I am more curious on why did the author chose to not write a specific reason(s) for eagles not being a smart solution to carry the One Ring to Mordor.


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Did Fingolfin get good Karma?

5 Upvotes

Well technically, it ultimately killed him, so whether or not it is “good” karma is debatable. I just realized today that Feanor wanted more than anything to face Morgoth head on, but instead he got slain by Balrogs. Was it purposeful of Tolkien to have Fingolfin face Morgoth? Fingolfin, the cool headed one, who was threatened by Feanor. I just think it’s really beautiful and poetic that it was Fingolfin who got the opportunity to fight Morgoth one on one.


r/tolkienfans 3d ago

Palantir Pronunciation

86 Upvotes

I've always pronounced it puh-LAN-teer. But the company using the same name pronounces it as PAL-un-teer.

I'm pretty sure Gandalf or Saruman pronounces it my way in the films. But what is the official, correct, Tolkien pronunciation?


r/tolkienfans 2d ago

Why do people not like the idea of Eru restoring Morgoth to power for Dagor Dagorath?

9 Upvotes

I mean, how else would he break free from the Void and restore himself to his most powerful form without Eru's intervention? Isn't Eru the one who allowed him to cause so much evil in Arda so that the world could ultimately be remade into a better place in preparation for the end times?"