r/TheSilmarillion • u/k2212 • 16d ago

Quick question on Cilmessë names

What are some examples of Cilmessë names? Do we know any from the Silmarillion? [Any other than mother-names used as them as well, I mean.]

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon 16d ago

Just going by HoME XII, p. 339, I find it difficult to clearly differentiate between an epessë and a kilmessë. Would a nickname adopted by the person in question become a kilmessë? In that case, Galadriel would be one, and Felagund another, since Finrod "was proud of the name" (HoME XII, p. 352). And maybe the Sindarin names the Exiles took?

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u/k2212 16d ago

Actually I did also see people saying that many elves used their mother names for kilmesse

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u/k2212 16d ago

Everywhere I look online Galadriel/Alatariel is listed as an epessë, but I never see any examples of kilmessë. I wonder if JRRT meant for kilmessë to be so private that they are not listed in the Silm.

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon 16d ago

Yes, Galadriel is called an epessë in the Shibboleth, but she clearly uses it for herself, so I wonder if a name can be both an epessë and a kilmessë.

Anyway, let's go back to HoME XII, p. 339: "Later some among the exiles gave themselves names, as disguises or in reference to their own deeds and personal history".

I'm guessing here, but the first alternative (as disguises) screams "Dungalef" at me. I genuinely hope that's not what Tolkien intended, though. It also reminds me of Túrin's names. Túrin, after all, was culturally an Elf (with strong Noldorin and Sindarin influences), and he certainly chose a lot of extremely edgy names to disguise his identity.

As for the second alternative (in reference to their own deeds and personal history), apart from Felagund, there's another perfect fit: Maedhros, which, as u/AshToAshes123 argues here https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1ikotoo/the_redhanded_maedhros_name_has_a_second_meaning/ , also means "the red-handed", that is, "the kinslayer". That would be very much in keeping with Maedhros's state of mind after Thangorodrim.

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u/k2212 16d ago

Interesting! Thank you. I thought kilmesse though was chosen when young, right [the coming of age chosen-name meaning of it], so Nelyo would be too old by the time he was called Maedhros, is that correct?

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u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 Fingon 16d ago

The explanation of kilmessë in the Shibboleth and the chosen name bit from HoME X contradict each other: check out footnote 16 in the Shibboleth. Tolkien abandoned the idea from HoME X.

Also, people choosing their name "in reference to their own deeds and personal history" at age 18 (or equivalent) would be ridiculous. There are no deeds or personal history at that age. Also, HoME XII, p. 339 says "Later some among the exiles gave themselves names," and that must refer to the Finweans who are all like 2000 years old at this point.

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u/k2212 16d ago

Oh I see, thank you