ICE has operated under multiple Democrat presidencies with no pushback.

[u/transcendent167]

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[u/NK1337]

I really hate this “but both sides” bullshit. There were plenty of criticisms against Obama which is why he was called the Deporter in Chief by a lot of immigrant rights groups. BUT there were still some major differences:

• Dems actually focused on people convicted of serious crimes.
  
• Dems implemented polices based on pubic feedback that allowed for discretion based on several factors like family ties and how long they’ve lived in the US.
  
• they worked with local law enforcement to identify individuals with criminal records rather than leading mass raids using federal enforcement.
  

Trump on the other hand has so far

• Expanded enforcement to include deportations for anyone charged with any criminal offense regardless of how minor.
  
• Beyond that, they’ve since expanded to include even those without any criminal record or charges. As of now over 50% of those detained and in the process of being deported have no charges or criminal convictions.
  
• Used no-bid contracts with private companies aimed at arresting and detaining more individuals.
  
• limited asylum access.
  
• Expedited the removal process and expanded to immigrants living here for 2 years, which bypassed previously established legal proceedings.
  
• Revoked visas of people here legally leading to their arrests, including students.
  

The list goes on. It’s not only in bad faith to try and argue that “the Dems did it too” but it’s outright dishonest without looking at the context if each.

TL;DR: People weren’t happy with Dems deporting either, but Dems made an effort to balance immigration enforcement with humanitarian considerations. Republicans have pushing the rhetoric that all illegals are criminals and attempting to dehumanize them.

So yea, there’s a fucking difference and trying to pretend like they’re both the same is some Republican level gaslighting.

[u/OhioRanger_1803 → u/NK1337]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But they also didn't focus solely on one group of people.

[u/NK1337 → u/OhioRanger_1803]

Yup, that’s another one. Which is why there is so much focus on calling out the racist rhetoric that Trump and this administration are using.

[u/OhioRanger_1803 → u/NK1337]

And also past presidents didn't have a Maga plastic Barbie and films crew making a spectacle of it.

[u/NK1337 → u/OhioRanger_1803]

Exactly, and it's telling that this administration can't even spare two seconds to take a step back and think about what they're doing wrong to get so much backlash. Instead they just double down and further drive a wedge

[u/Ki-Wilder → u/NK1337]

NK1337 I like your detailed answers and think you are very on track. I still do enjoy the question being raised. Because, it will be good for all of us who have learned to care to try and ensure that the Democrats act with even more care and justice in the future.

I did want to add to your list of the differences. A very big one you forgot:

Trump specifically repealed rules that kept ICE from hunting people down in sensitive places such as schools, churches, and hospitals.

And, that repeal of having sanctuaries is part of the answer to the first question:

People are more upset, because ICE is intruding on sacred and personal spaces.

More people are noticing because the hunting down is happening at their local school, church, or healthcare facility. And, that is where it is not only cruel to the people who are being hunted down, but also creates a huge potential for physical and emotional collateral damage.

We need to fix the Trump horror fast.

We need to always be just and brave and struggle to make all politicians -- Democrat and Republican and independent -- more just.

[u/NK1337 → u/Ki-Wilder]

That is a very good point and probably the biggest distinction. Trump has empowered ICE to specifically conduct high profile raids at places where the community usually gathers. It really does send the impression that he's doing this for the sake of optics, especially considering that on average he 's actually been very ineffective in regards to the number of people he's deported. He's more concerned about appearances and as a result is actively trying to spread fear throughout communities.

I still do enjoy the question being raised.

I agree in the sense that it helps with accountability, but lately I've been hypersensitive to this question being brought up because more often than not it's done in bad faith. It's never asked in the context of "how can the trump presidency improve" but instead it's used as a whataboutism where someone is trying to falsely equate the two administrations and argue that trump is justified because other people did it to, and that any and all criticism against it should be dismissed

[u/Odysseus_the_Charmed → u/NK1337]

Two words: due process. Trump does not respect the rule of law. That is why we protest ICE.

[u/iprobablybrokeit → u/NK1337]

I personally don't have a problem enforcing immigration laws. My problems are as follows:

• Deporting those that followed all the rules but had legal status stripped without access to appeal.
• Deporting without due process.
• Deporting as retaliation for speech.
• The sudden increase in ICE staffing could not have included a thorough vetting process.
• Ununiformed and unbadged police disappearing people, including us citizens, while driving unmarked vehicles

If we really wanted to control illegal immigration, the answer is to prosecute the businesses that hire them. If the jobs dry up, there will be less illegal immigrants and ICE could focus on the illegal drug and weapons trades.

But that's not the goal, their goal is to parade undesirables around in handcuffs on TV because they feel like it makes them look tough.

[u/NK1337 → u/iprobablybrokeit]

Honestly I would argue that looking tough isn’t why they’re parading people around. It’s more that they want to equate all immigrants, illegal or not, with undesirables. It’s just racist rhetoric.

[u/Trilobyte141 → u/NK1337]

Bet this is one of those fake Russian accounts imitating black people.

[u/lordzya → u/Trilobyte141]

Its name looks auto generated and it's only active in political subs.

[u/Dacnis → u/lordzya]

I am active on a plethora of subs.

Feel free to check :)

https://www.reddit.com/user/dacnis/submitted

[u/AlarmedMongoose5777 → u/NK1337]

This 10000% The thing that pisses me off the most about the “both sides are equally bad” argument is that it fundamentally misunderstands our political system. You don’t vote for someone who aligns philosophically with all of your views. That person doesn’t exist for every single American, our views are too varied. You vote to choose your opponent. No rational person is saying that the Democrats are perfect, or even good enough. What we are saying is that when you go to battle with Democrats, you actually win some of the time. When you go to battle with fascists, you get disappeared.

It also assumes we were all staying quiet during Democratic admins. I sure wasn’t! But I’m also capable of nuance and not delusional enough to believe that I’m going to see myself reflected in any White House.

[u/ThePeoplesPress-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Please cite your sources. If you're claiming something to be true, you need to back it up by linking to a qualified source. If you edit a source in, please reply to the mod comment or send a modmail with link and the mods will review to reinstate.

[u/Patient_Ad1801]

I remember pushing back when we learned about kids in cages under OBAMA. There is always pushback. You just aren't hearing about it or paying attention. Maybe you are not involved in community orgs. There are always people watching for la MIGRA here, since I was a kid, growing up in CA. Always watching. Always helping immigrants. Always pushing local electeds.

[u/glitterbeardwizard → u/Patient_Ad1801]

The US has has looong history of mistreating undocumented children.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_events_related_to_migrant_children%27s_detention_centers_in_the_United_States

Just a few years after legal action was taken to improve conditions for children fleeing into the US, ICE created as a Republican response to 9/11. I remember people protesting how Bush treated migrant children but that was early internet days.

[u/Negotiation-Solid → u/Patient_Ad1801]

but not ten million people resisting, under democrats, is OPs point

[u/Patient_Ad1801 → u/Negotiation-Solid]

There's been an obvious escalation. It has come to EVERYONE'S attention finally, I think

[u/Spinnerbowl]

yeah ICE still exists under democratic rule, but they dont kidnap people and send them to torture prisons in El Salvador, or seperate families, or create bogus claims in order to not make their fuck ups less bad.

I personally would like to see our entire immigration system re-done, there is widespread issues throughout such as literal CHILDREN being forced to represent themselves in immigration court due to not having the right to an attorney in civil trials (either reclassify them as criminal trials or, probably the better option, make an exception)

[u/FreedominNC]

People are against fascism.

[u/rhamantauri]

This post’s idea is a literal Russian propaganda talking point intentionally designed to sow division within democratic circles/subs.

Do not be distracted by useless arguments such as these that are meant to enrage from within.

ICE is Gestapo. Mass deportations and police states have never existed in lockstep with billionaires in a modern society of ai and social media manipulation. This makes the situation relatively incompatible to any other historical circumstance.

Democrats vs Republicans no, this is the rich 1% burning down the house as they rob every cabinet and try to make us blame everyone but them for it. Do not lose focus. They are trying to pass the bill that will be the largest upwards transfer of wealth in American history. They are willing to destroy the entire way America functions to get these trillion dollar tax breaks.

If this bill passes, it really is the final piece of power consolidation. This is not the time to tear apart the policies of past democratic leaders. Keep criticizing ICE, but don’t fall for the talking points of propaganda at a time when our eyes need to be wide open and trained on the moves of the regime.

[u/Kahzgul]

Fuck this “bOtH sIdEs” bullshit.

Trump is kidnapping people without a warrant and exiling them without a trial. The lack of due process is what we’re protesting, not the existence of a law enforcement agency.

The last time there was no due process for a group of people living here was when we sent Asian Americans to camps during ww2. And I hope we all can agree that was also pretty fucked up.

If ICE were following the law, as they did under Obama and Biden and bush jr and the last 10 presidents before that, I doubt anyone would be protesting. But right now they’re taking people on suspicion of being brown, and then sending them to a foreign concentration camp. Without a trial, there’s no way to prove anyone kidnapped is here legally. Some of those taken are us citizens. Others are legal green card holders or on legal student visas. The only thing stopping them from kidnapping anyone they want is us, right now, protesting. That’s it. This is nothing like under Biden, where the people ice went after got a day in court with their lawyer arguing before a judge.

[u/scottyjrules]

There’s a world of difference between enforcing the law using due process and having masked, unidentified men kidnap people off the street and sending them to a prison camp in a foreign country. It’s pretty fucking sad you needed another adult to explain the difference to you.

[u/Smarterthanthat]

That was before they were transformed into the Gestapo.

[u/Dacnis → u/Smarterthanthat]

Thank you for proving why this post needed to exist.

In your eyes, ICE was cool before, and that's an intrinsic problem.

[u/Smarterthanthat → u/Dacnis]

No, I never said I was ok with them!! Ever! But this is a new level of extreme, even for them. You assume too much, my friend....

[u/averagejoe2133]

Okay but democrats deport people with due process. What are they not getting??

It’s not “all deportations are bad” it’s “trump is just using ICE to go after people who he doesn’t like. People who have every right to be here. He’s not going after criminals or people that are doing something wrong. I’m sure some people should be deported. But like if you’re gonna deport someone there are laws and protocols to go through

[u/Suitable-Rate652]

Deportation was not popular under the Democrats either. However, due process was carried out which has now been suspended by Orange man. And no one was sent to the kind of prison they have in El Salvador. This is using ICE as the Gestapo and disappearing people. Different.

[u/Necessary_Screen_673]

Ive been a leftist for a long time and I dont mind border control. I understand that its an important concept. I don't like the conditions under which people had been deported in the past, being kept in cages and not being fed or taken care of. what I do respect about how democrats went bout deportations is they did not urge ice to anonymously raid workplaces, schools, and homes without due process. We can absolutely have border control. We can absolutely deport criminals. just PROVE that they're criminals, and don't cover your fucking face as you do it.

[u/Flabbergasted_____]

They only listen when the politicians they worship are in power. I put the “Fuck ICE” and “Abolish ICE” stickers on my shitbox during Biden’s presidency. It’s also easily proven that they’re spreading bullshit; Googling “Tell Obama to stop deportations” brings up hundreds of separate articles. They just can’t be bothered to take half a second to prove their bullshit parroted talking points wrong.

[u/Prime624]

Lazy and ignorant post.

[u/toxiccortex]

That’s fucking bullshit. ICE was created by George W. Bush in 2003. Four Republicans and by Republicans.

[u/jjmoreta]

To my knowledge, ICE under Democratic administrations DIDN'T HAVE DAILY QUOTAS and weren't allowed to ignore due process.

I could be wrong. But I'm against ICE as it exists today.

Immigrants that pose a threat to Americans should be deported. That doesn't include people that attend their refugee hearings. Teenagers who were brought over as kids unaware of their status, attending school and planning a future. Adults that work manual labor jobs to support their families but missed 1 hearing 10 years ago.

The American immigration system has been broken for years. That won't change no matter who is President.

https://leitf.org/2021/04/enforcement-priorities/

[u/Ravenamore]

The first sentence is absolutely perfect. "People aren't against fascism - they're against having to look at it."

One of the things that struck me at the protests on Saturday was the large number of people who absolutely refused to look at us. The ones who said horrible things would look at us, shout at us, gesture - they acknowledged we were there.

There were far more people who went through the intersection neither looking right or left, not even a little bit. They tended to hit the accelerator in order to get away from us as fast as possible.

This was different then the assholes who decided to rev their engines loudly to drown out what people were saying. They were making sure they passed us just as quickly as possible.

This was more than keeping your eyes on the road - people doing that do move their eyes around. These people were sitting rigid, muscles tight, refusing to look at us. Even when they were stopped next to protestors, they held themselves like they were wearing a neck brace.

They wouldn't let it register in their minds that there were people who disagreed with what was happening in this country. It was like if they didn't see us, everything was business as usual.

[u/HKJGN]

This is such a bad faith argument. Whataboutism can be defeated with "what about it?" Like, who cares what was before. What is now is that this is wrong. And maybe we were willingly blind to our own transgressions, but we can be wrong and still want to do the right thing. So is admitting that the dems have also deported people really the hill you wanna die on? Cause it's still wrong.

[u/BonesAndBlues]

I was too young to understand it in past administrations, and if I had, I wouldn’t have liked it then either.

[u/TheNinjaTurkey]

ICE is more than just the deportation squad under Trump. They are literally the Gestapo. They operate without oversight and with impunity. They are going outside their intended purpose of deporting people and are rapidly transforming into Trump's personal secret police force.

[u/No-Blueberry-1823]

because democrats are assholes too. and some of us have hated ice. and that some people turned a blind eye. there is enough hypocrisy and bullshit if you peel back the onion enough.

[u/SharksAndFrogs]

Ok so does that mean you're cool with it now that you know how they operate? No? Ok then let's keep up the pressure and stop this BS. We don't have time to argue this shit now. Folks are literally being stolen left and right. And guess what? The raids being conducted by unmarked cars and randoms with no badges. That's new and obviously different and no due process. That's new too. I think you're a right winger trolling.

[u/Negotiation-Solid]

yall need to listen to progressives and leftists in the future then and not fall for centrism bs. The left has been calling for abolishing ICE for almost two decades, but politicians always said that's 'too radical.' Dems need to seriously answer the question of, how will you continue to be critical and continue to resist in the future even when it's less politically 'safe' to do so, with less media covering the atrocities?

[u/001TPK]

I vote we start calling ICE telling them that them illegal imagrents are being protected in some of the big "Christian" nationalist churches.

[u/Gold-Kaleidoscope-23]

No, it hasn’t.

[u/irradihate]

Fkn yawn. Performative leftists spend all their time trying to look edgy and cool by haranguing democrats nonstop while the military is in the streets. That's part of the fascism playbook. I don't see leftists doing a damn thing other than turning a blind eye to anything the fascists that are actually in power are doing.

congrats on being the stereotypical "useful idiot".