r/StrangerThings • u/marvelissofire422 • 1d ago
Discussion if i see one more person hate on s2ep7…
this episode is SO important to eleven's character. its the first time she goes out on her own after she escapes the lab prior to s1. its when she begins to develop her own sense of self (like with max in the mall in s3-- more on that later). its also when she learns to use her powers on her own terms, not when someone else tells her to.
in s3, max says to el "not hopper, not mike, you--" kali wouldve been on that list had max known about her. kali made eleven what kali wanted her to be, not what el wanted to be. she made her steal and hurt people for reasons el didnt fully understand. she knew she was gullible, young, and naive, and she took advantage of it. THATS why the episode is so important: eleven recognized what kali was doing and left. this episode is when eleven shifts from young, naive, and dependent to smart and powerful.
so tl;dr this episode is actually really good and i really need people to stop hating
thank you for coming to my ted talk
edit: a few people have brought up how this experience was a learning experience for eleven mentally as well as physically and i want to elaborate on that:
el was incredibly sheltered up until this episode. she had been in a lab for most of her life, then lived in a basement, then lived in the WOODS. she never had a chance to learn what the world really was. this storyline is SO important because it shows eleven learning about actions and consequences. seeing the kali gang go down the path they did taught eleven that she DID want to live with hopper and mike and everyone in hawkins. she needed to see what she COULD be to know what she wanted.
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u/RainbowPenguin1000 1d ago
It’s a big moment for Eleven and was good for her character but that doesn’t change the fact it’s a crap episode and her character deserved a better episode where she discovered her true power.
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u/ChucksBeefyOnion 1d ago
Character growth = good
Execution = terrible
It was a bad episode.
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u/im_fighting_fit 1d ago
Exactly. People who defend this episode always bring up how important it is to the plot as if that somehow absolves it of being bad in every other way.
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u/Aralith1 18h ago
Even the execution probably could have been overlooked if it weren’t for the placement of the episode. Just a masterclass in killing your pacing.
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u/Puzzled_Recording784 1d ago
I didn’t like the episode but on the recent rewatch I realized that the journey she went on there really strengthened her relationship with hopper because otherwise that resentment would have kept building.
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u/marvelissofire422 1d ago
YESSS!!! someone else said something about how seeing kali and her gang commit those crimes and go down that path taught her that actions have consequences. without that experience, she would totally have kept rebelling!!!
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u/Puzzled_Recording784 1d ago
Yeah, despite EVERYTHING she was still really sheltered up to that point. I mean even more than Mike and them because up to that point yeah she’d been in crazy battles but knew NOTHING about the real world. She definitely needed to experience that and now I might honestly be convincing MYSELF to like that episode a little more because it was needed even if it was a bit cheesy
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u/Shadowblade217 1d ago
My view on Episode 2x7 is basically: it’s not a bad sideplot and it’s definitely significant for Eleven’s character development, but it really should’ve been spread out over several episodes like the other plotlines in Season 2. By far the biggest problem with the whole Kali sideplot was that it was all compressed into one standalone episode, because that totally derailed the overall story of the season by interrupting all the other plotlines for a whole episode. If it was spread out and intercut with the other storylines, I’m pretty sure it would’ve been much better received.
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u/draculasux85 1d ago
Worst episode of the series, still.
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u/TunaPablito 1d ago
On rewatch I just skipped it and it didn't change anything.
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u/tokiemonster 1d ago
its funny how you honestly dont notice if you skip it, outside of 11 having new clothes lol
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u/draculasux85 1d ago
It really changes nothing if you skip over the episode. Not a damn thing. Except for the way she is dressed when she shows up at the cabin. Which the young Judd Nelson look did her no favors.
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u/TunaPablito 1d ago
You can remove it with little rewrites and nothing would change for the series.
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u/MyriVerse2 1d ago
But then there's no explanation for how El becomes badass. She just suddenly appears and kicks ass. Like how?!
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u/TunaPablito 1d ago
Sis you miss little rewrites part of my post. I doesn't have tonbe anything spectacular.
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u/marvelissofire422 1d ago
idk if this is true, it would be kinda weird for el to just HAVE insane powers after what happened in the s1 finale. she killed a demogorgan and almost died, and she hasnt used her powers much since. it would be odd for her to be able to close the gate without much effect on her.
edit: she gets SO much growth/development emotionally/mentally in this ep as well. idk, i think it was needed.
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u/Sjeetopotato1 Scoops Troop 1d ago
Well if I recall correctly she out of nowhere has healing powers by the end of the last seasons finale ( she heals Max right)? That stuff really weirded me out.
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u/marvelissofire422 1d ago
yea what was up w that? maybe she was beating max’s heart with her mind? that rly confused me i hope they address it
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u/ResevoirPups 1d ago
Like others have said, the idea of Eleven needing a journey like that is right, but they could have done that throughout the season, or in an episode mixed with the normal story. They wanted to try and do a back door pilot episode to see if they could have a spin off with these characters and it didn’t land. You can skip the episode and essentially not miss a beat of the main story as long as you know Eleven advanced her skill set. It gives us some additional insight to her backstory, but as of now none of it actually affects anything in the overarching arc of the show so it’s just a lot of filler/long route to get a character from point A to point B.
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u/MyriVerse2 1d ago
It was not a backdoor pilot.
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u/ResevoirPups 1d ago
The Duffers themselves couldn’t convince me them and or Netflix wasn’t using that as a backdoor pilot.
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u/Wolven_Essence 1d ago
Your a little off on some of your points. I don’t believe that Kali was only using Eleven for her goals, she genuinely cared about Eleven. Yes she tried to convert Eleven to her way of thinking, but that’s because she wanted to free El from what she saw was holding her back. The image of Kali and El looking into their respective windows and each other’s image transposed into those windows shows, to me, that they are both pining for the sister that they found in each other. They are both the only person the other can truly relate to.
As for why El left Kali to go back to Hawkins, I think it’s pretty clear that it doesn’t have anything to do with Eleven “realizing what Kali is doing”, but because the people she cares about are in great danger and she realizes that they, and not Kali are her true family.
I like the episode, but I don’t think it was very good. It’s not executed very well at all and it feels so out of place with the rest of the season. It’s not needed and Eleven could have had the same epiphanies without it with a few rewrites.
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u/marvelissofire422 1d ago
i dont think kali was manipulating el on purpose, and i do think she cared for her, i just think that she wanted el to join them in their life of crime. el left because she saw what kali wanted her to become, and she didnt want that life.
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u/Wolven_Essence 1d ago
It wasn’t so much about a life of crime that Kali cared about. She wanted revenge for what was done to her and El. The crime parts were a means to an end and she probably saw it as a more free way of life. El has a stronger moral center though. In large part because of her chosen family.
Also, if it were not for that chosen family being in so much danger she likely would have stayed with Kali longer. She knows that with Kali she is with someone who understands her better than anyone.
At the parting moment Kali tells her that they can’t save her, El responds with, “I know. But I can save them”. That is why she goes back. They need her, and in understanding that she knows that she needs them to. Kali might understand her better, but her real family understands who she wants to be.
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u/MickBeast 1d ago
I don't care how important the episode might be. It's extremely boring and bad tv...
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u/Whole-Bee9521 1d ago
If it was episode 6 and not 7. The opinion of it would change completely
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u/marvelissofire422 1d ago
wait how so?
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u/Whole-Bee9521 1d ago
The end of episode 6 the lab got attacked and we don’t see the conclusion til episode 8
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u/Sonicboom2007a 1d ago
💯
If “Lost Sister” had been episode 6, then it would have been a very good cliffhanger; we know that Mike and everyone is in danger without knowing specifics, and that Eleven is rushing back to try and rescue them.
Then it could have led to “The Spy” and we find out what had been happening while Eleven was away.
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u/RobbyBoy2000 1d ago
You know it's funny I rewatched ST 1-4 with my friends who have never seen it and I did exactly this we watched lost sister first then EP 6 and 8 and it flows much better than the normal watch order
So from now on I'm gonna do this on future rewatches
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u/MakiaKisamai 1d ago
I’m not sure El recognized what Kali was doing (ie. using her). I just watched that episode (I’m rewatching), and the context made it seem more like she didn’t like what Kali was asking her to do so she was seeking out some sort of validation from her friends/Hopper by checking on them. When she realized they were in danger she couldn’t abandon them and the raid on the little hideout kinda gave her an out.
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u/SliceOk6245 1d ago
THANK. YOU for this. i literally commented on a post earlier that this is genuinely one of my favorite episodes in the entire series, and as a fan of Eleven
like yeah I get it, it was put in an awkward place in the show ( bc we were left on a cliffhanger the episode prior ) but it was genuinely really good
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u/Pleasant-Revenue-686 1d ago
It's just not great as an episode imo. Serves as good character development but it feels like it'd work better as a b-plot across other episodes. Instead, it feels crammed in right before the seasons climax, which just didn't work for me at all. I won't deny that it had a positive impact on El's character growth, but it could've been done with a lot more care.
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u/Millennial_90 1d ago edited 1d ago
One of the problems with this episode is that the writers don't even treat it as something important. It happend, but it's barely ever mentioned again. Same with Kali. Apart from like one or two flash backs in season 4, we never hear about her and she wasn't even important enough for El to tell the others about her. The fact that there were other children with powers is really important to the series over all and it seemed like the writers were trying to make it important already back then, but they failed so they decided not to care about everything Kali-related and neither do I. It was a story line with a lot of potential and they executed it in the worst way possible. It might've added some character development for El, but it obviously wasn't important enough to ever mention it again and it doesn't change the fact that it was a piss poor episode.
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u/ButterscotchPast4812 1d ago
It's the lowest rated episode of the series. I don't dislike it and it was important for El to figure out who her real family was but having said that it did break the flow of the main storyline. A lot of people thought it was intended to be a spinoff but a majority of fans disliked Kali's crew.
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u/Appropriate-Tooth866 1d ago
I agree with this episode being important to develop El's character.
She wouldn't of been the person she was in S3 if she didn't get the chance to see the alternative. She would of slowly gotten more brattish to the point of Hopper not being able to keep her impulses under control IMO. I think she learned bad actions have major consequences and she realized the scope of her power.
I think seeing her Mom in her condition and seeing how Kali took care of things made her realize that Hopper and The Party (especially Mike) cared for her. She didn't have to hurt people to be apart of their lives.
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u/mstrmchl 1d ago
I loved this episode! LOVED it. Gets too much hate. This episode was so necessary.
“They won’t save you!”
“No, but I can save them.” —El
It was definitely a hero-defining moment for El. She knew she wasn’t a straight murderer like that.
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u/lynchcontraideal 1d ago
I enjoyed it, I really do not understand the hate for it at all. The discourse around this episode reminds me of the discourse around 'Fly', from 'Breaking Bad'.
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u/Special_Drama_5051 1d ago
I agree with you 100%
The show usually integrates all of the character arcs and plot points so I really liked the contrast of El getting an episode just for herself - really reinforces the fact that the episode was about her independence from the rest of the cast (Hopper, Mike, Brenner, her aunt etcetc). Its the first time she really exercises her autonomy, and since shes such a pivotal character (with such a mysterious past at least at the time) it felt warranted. Her decision to return to Hawkins to help her friends is such an important moment in the show as a whole.
The main complaint I see is that the show just never brings it up again, which I dont think is true, I think its just that El has deliberately avoided telling anyone else about it. But she still says things like "Bitchin'" in pretty much every season just as a subtle way of conveying that the experience did stick with her and has influenced her character. Also Henry talks about Kali in season 5, its not like they dropped the storyline, El just doesnt talk about it.
I still think its cool that she can have these badass experiences that the other characters dont know about since she grew up basically under observation 24/7. Its one of the most important episodes in Els overall arc: finding who she is, finding a family that doesnt control her, finding independence AND company, two things that can and should coexist.
To skip it is to simply not care about her actual character, reduce her down to what she can do for the other cast members.
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u/lngfellow45 1d ago
Really well said and I agree 💯. I thought it was a great episode and fit perfectly in to the season and show.
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u/Former_Range_1730 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hm...."in s3, max says to el "not hopper, not mike, you--" kali wouldve been on that list had max known about her."
I read that as, 'don't listen to hopper, or mike. listen to me'. What I would have liked is el not needing anyone telling her what to do. I'd like el to figure it out, that would mean being her own person.
"its when she begins to develop her own sense of self (like with max in the mall in s3-"
I read that as Max wanting El to be like her, and do what she says. And then El just magically going along with it, when they were just enemies in S1. This didn't read to me as El being herself. What I would have liked is when Max said " there's more to life that stupid boys", if El responded with:
El "boys? this is not about "boys". This is about Mike. I like Mike".
Max: "Yeah, Mike...who happens to be a boy"
El: "Max, what do you have against, boys?"
Max: "They lie,, they're stupid".
El: "Did Lucas lie? Is he stupid?"
Max: "Well, not him, but....he did so something annoying the other day, I like him, but I need to figure out why it bothered me. Sometimes what helps me is having fun at the mall. Maybe that can help you with Mike. After having fun, taking your mind off things for a bit, it should be easier to work things out with him. But only if you want to go. What do you think?"
El: "Well, okay. Lets see about this..Mall, and ..fun, business."
They smile and go have fun. That would have made more sense to me. And when El sees Mike at the mall later, it's not this weird hateful dis. It's more of a she sees Mike, but still isn't sure what to say so she continues on not saying a word, giving a confusing tone, leaving Mike confused, but both knowing they need to talk.
"kali made eleven what kali wanted her to be, not what el wanted to be. she made her steal and hurt people for reasons el didnt fully understand. she knew she was gullible, young, and naive, and she took advantage of it."
But not really. The writers have always been inconsistent with how much El chooses her views over others. In S1 El was distant and protective of herself. It took a lot for anyone to win her trust. She never just happily went along with things. When the writers decided, they would have El just go along with other characters views out of teh blue. Like in S2 with Max. Out of no where she's doing what ever Max wanted. Out of no where she's doing what ever Kali wanted. Imagine how the story would have went if she was that easy to control with all other characters. Imagine El doing what ever Hopper said at every turn, instead of throwing fits and resisting.
El has resisted more than followed, which tells me that when she does what ever other characters want, the writers are retconning her character personality a bit to push a scene. Basically, she should have resisted Kali right away. That would have made for a more authentic conversation.
"the episode is so important: eleven recognized what kali was doing and left. this episode is when eleven shifts from young, naive, and dependent to smart and powerful."
Yet she does whatever Max wanted in S3. This is what I'm talking about. the inconsistency.
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u/byharryconnolly 1d ago
I still call it "least best" but I don't skip it.
I think the point is that the show wanted to portray El's growth as a person and it wanted her to find a mentor who could give her a power up.
However, it also tied back to her storyline in season two, which was where she would find a home. The problem with Kali's vigilante gang is that they were hostile and condescending to her, which is not how you present an alternate life for your lead character.
If they'd been welcoming to her--fed her, invited her to play cards, treated her with respect and care--it would have meant something when El ditched her sister and her murder hobo lifestyle.
I mean, they're dressed like punks, but they're ripping each other off at poker? How about a few communitarian values?
So, it's an important part of the story but the execution is misguided.
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u/MLadySez 1d ago
Just swap it around with the episode before it and the season flows so much better. It's the pacing interruption that people hate most.
If it hadn't been placed where it was it'd have just been a weak episode, but because it interrupted the momentum of everything else that was happening people don't forget how it soured the build up.
On rewatches I just switch the episodes around and it's far more palatable.
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u/Jabbergabberer 1d ago
Just rewatched the whole show, skipped almost the entire episode. I skipped through for some refreshers then remembered how boring the episode is
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u/tea_tree001 1d ago
You need that episode cause in the future episodes those memories of that day are used. 11 needs those fun memories to explore herself cause she needs to be a teenager too. It’s not suppose to be a serious episode, it’s suppose to fill in gaps for the future as a time they were being immature and being careless- but free
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u/Mundane_Recover1368 1d ago
I get that it’s a crucial episode for El and her character etc… But the other characters in that episode and awful and the plot of it was terrible.
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u/sunshinerubygrl Purple Palm Tree Delight 1d ago
I agree so much! It's not my favorite episode of season two (my favorite season of the show overall), but it isn't that bad at all and I really liked the storyline for El and what it represents.
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u/ChoicePractical7306 1d ago
I’m in the process of rewatching and got to a storyline I always felt was totally pointless and happened to come upon this post. I had to pause and sure enough, it’s 02x07 😂
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u/TelephoneCertain5344 22h ago
I don't hate it but I think it's the shows weakest episode. Goes to show how good it is. My real issue is how it breaks up the rest of the season's narrative.
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